Just what was the Emperor's ultimate goal?

[starfury]

*Looks at Mon Cal ships and X-Wings* You're kidding right?

I always thought if you colored the X-wings differently, with harder, darker colors, then they would fit in very neatly with the dagger style of the imperial navy. admit it, the needle shape of the X-wing and the dagger shape of the ISD does go well togather.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

If nothing else, there were better sites for demonstration inside Japan itself, as opposed to a major city.

Well, there's also "will" to consider - if you waste your few atom bombs blowing up innocent countryside, you may be showing weakness. An analogue of this alternative was also proposed (by the pro-Rebel EU authors), and it works better for Hiroshima. The problem is of course that blowing up a planet is utterly trivial compared to the "minor" problem of getting past those monstrous first rate shields protecting a planet. And Aldie's shield is probably the strongest ever witnessed in all of SW. It is a fucking, fucking monster. Period.

Sounds very iffy to me. They can target and destroy a single mon cal cruiser with the second one,

They don't need to judge the Mon Cal's shield to a precision of one in a trillionth and calibrate weapon to same precision just to destroy it, do they? They can overkill a good deal without real harm. They don't have to know geology with a ship to help estimate its shield system's momentum handling capabilities (which when you talk about these kinds of energies get to be a real pain).

it sounds unlikely that they can't just fire at one of the Alderannian shields until it goes offline.

Never mind that this is actually advantageous for the shield (remember that they barely broke it with a condensed 5-frame burst). Never mind the cooling and other systems may not be set up for this. Just watch them go over by one millisecond and watch that baby blue that's Aldie go up...

Torpedo spheres, IIRC, are able to do something very similar to this.

The game a torpedo sphere plays, already considered very difficult and requiring lots of special equipment, is child's play compared to this. "All" it does is evaluate an area of lowest energy, fire a bunch of torpedoes and 500 guns on a TOT attack, of which only one has to make it. There is no need for such precision adjustment as that required.

Even so, I would find it exteremly unrealistic if Bail Organa or someone else (after disposing of the aforesaid Organa) would not surrender under such duress.

Yet the shields went up...

Yes. Most people who say that those are justified are from America or other Allied countries, there is an element of patriotism at work. They don't tend to support the bombing of Coventry in the same way they support the far fiercer bombing of Dresden. Even then, these things are regarded as necessery evils.

OK, so from Tarkin's POV, he would support the destruction of Aldie and regard it as a "necessary evil." Hmm...

I don't see why they couldn't, given time.

Another thing I had a hard time getting people to understand (though any other day they would have understood "orders of magnitude". Matter of the shield being orders of magnitude too powerful.

There is also the fact that Ion Cannons are at worst, minimally interactive with shields.

A EGVV might have said this, but we can see from TESB that's apparently not so. If shields can be easily negotiated with some crummy ion cannon, they would be hitting shields with ion weapons on the Torp Sphere.

We know that in universe seige weapons such as Torpedo Spheres are able to bring down this kind of shield. I would be amazed if the Death Star was built without those same capabilities.

The problem is not anything but ALDIEs fucking megashield. A Torpedo Sphere is built with a good chance to get past an average planetary shield. An average planetary shields in SW might have a WEG-rating of 6D Planetary (DESB's sample sheld). For scaling reference, the Eclipse, which cannot blow up a planet, is 11D planetary. The Death Star beam at full power is 16D planetary.

A 6D Planetary Shield can be pierced by a Torpedo Sphere. The diecap conversions from Capital to Death Star (planetary) scale is 1/6 - the die cap is 1 for damage. Which means the damage potential of the 9D Cap (vs planetary shields only) torps is 9 DS scale. A 6D shields' resistance is from 6 to 36, so there is a chance of damage.

Compare that to Aldie's ubershield. It can almost withstand the DS beam, so it is of comparable power, say 15D or 16D. Obviously, there is no way you can get the torps (9D) or TLs (10D) to scratch it.

If you don't want it in RPG language, you can just think that Torp Spheres don't achieve even minimum GPE breakups. Their chances of making real dents on Aldie's E37J shield is roughly zero.

Transferring the DER sensor system of the Torp Spheres over might allow you to realize the weak spot's location. It probably won't tell you things in enough precision to do a trillionth adjustment with any confidence of success.

[NecronLord]

I'm really doubting some of these claims on the Alderann shield, to be brutally honest, I think they're fanwank. Yes. The shield flashed. Does that mean it's taking all the energy? No. It means its reflecting some of the energy. How much? Who knows.

I'd be much more willing to say that the five frames were the amount of time taken ramp up the superlaser power to full and blast Alderann to bits. There are numerous reasons for that, not least that if this were so, why are these systems that are both commonplace and capable of handling 1e37 J not used in turbolasers? Why the necessity for the excessively large superlaser onf the Death Star, if the level of energy involved can be handled by much smaller components, why make the Death Star so massive at all?

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, those were the motivations of a nutty clone.

No dice. ROTJ Palpatine is a clone body anyhow, and that official. No undoing that. To paraphase Publius, to claim that ROTS Palpatine is not DE Palpatine is to state that Macbeth in Act II of the play is a fundamentally different character than Act III of the play.

Not to mention ROTS Palpatine is a lot more immature as a character and in his eventual goals. Things change a lot by ROTJ.

Palpatine's true motivations (RotS script/novel) were nowhere near something so deranged.

It's about the Sith Legacy. Destroying the Jedi Order. Getting their revenge (Darth Maul in TPM). Darth Vader was Palpatine's ultimate goal- he represented an unbelievably powerful apprentice to continue the Sith legacy, he expressed his hopes for Anakin during the duel with Yoda, and those hopes were dashed by Obi-Wan and Anakin's own folly during the duel. Luckily- Anakin Skywalker had a son, so Palpatine could set about replacing the weakened Darth Vader with a more powerful apprentice. Palpatine waited all his life as a Sith Lord for a truly powerful apprentice- Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus' were both expendable tools to that end.

All of that is good and dandy...when you're still mortal.

Anyway, the best summarization of Palpatine goals, which are best summarized by the word apotheosization, can be found here on Publius' website.

That is a gross oversimplification. Of course he wanted power for power's sake, he's a SITH. But there's more to it than that, as I said. What I'm chiefly concerned with is this nonsense that Palpatine planned to do all this crazy shit and planned to rule the galaxy forever and be the most powerful blah blah blah. It may have been acceptable reasoning before RotS- it ain't after. Period.

And I edited your post with size tags. Be more careful next time.

I'm really tired of agenda-bearing fucks like you throwing stuff out because you don't like it. That's the fundamental reason. Guess what. RATIONALIZATION OVER CONTRADICTION. And disregarding anything else, its ALWAYS possible that he just changed his fucking mind. And you can't toss canon over that.

Piss off.

And there's the most basic fact that "want powerful apprentice" works just as well with narcissistic, all-consuming Palpatine as anything else. There's no explicit contradiction whatsoever, and you engineer it because of your non-canon agenda. That is bullshit. Not to mention the DESB states clearly that one of the goals of Shadow Hand was to acquire a replacement for Lord Vader in Luke Skywalker. There's precisely no contradiction at all.

I'm really doubting some of these claims on the Alderann shield, to be brutally honest, I think they're fanwank. Yes. The shield flashed. Does that mean it's taking all the energy? No. It means its reflecting some of the energy. How much? Who knows.

"It isn't because I say so." Ok, Chief.

I'd be much more willing to say that the five frames were the amount of time taken ramp up the superlaser power to full and blast Alderann to bits.

Ok, and the examples of every other composite beam weapon causing instantaneous damage on impact (SPHA-T beam, LAAT/i ball-turrets) is waved away...because Chief says so. Ok.

There are numerous reasons for that, not least that if this were so, why are these systems that are both commonplace and capable of handling 1e37 J not used in turbolasers? Why the necessity for the excessively large superlaser onf the Death Star, if the level of energy involved can be handled by much smaller components, why make the Death Star so massive at all?

And you know the volume of the shield mechanisms handling power is equivalent to the volume of the generating and firing mechanisms? You've posted proof from analysis of the ICS's? You've shown that Alderaan's shield mechanisms are not volumetrically appropriate to these comparisons with citations to evidence? That's really cool Chief. I also want to be a moderator now, apparently you guys can make your text so small its impossible to read.

Since when did all the oldbies suddenly think that some concept just not sitting with them well subjectively or qualitiatively (aww, poor babies ) is an objection which is empirically substancial or just generally worth giving a damn?

I didn't get this memo. Maybe something is there you don't like. Live with it unless you have hard data in opposition. This is just like Trektards balling like losers because their precious Federation is Communist.

[Vympel]

No dice. ROTJ Palpatine is a clone body anyhow, and that official. No undoing that. To paraphase Publius, to claim that ROTS Palpatine is not DE Palpatine is to state that Macbeth in Act II of the play is a fundamentally different character than Act III of the play.

Not to mention ROTS Palpatine is a lot more immature as a character and in his eventual goals. Things change a lot by ROTJ.

No, in RotJ things were the same. "Take your father's place at my side!". Don't you remember that?

All of that is good and dandy...when you're still mortal.

? You were the one who said that RotS Palpatine is the same as DE Palpatine.

I'm really tired of agenda-bearing fucks like you throwing stuff out because you don't like it. That's the fundamental reason. Guess what. RATIONALIZATION OVER CONTRADICTION. And disregarding anything else, its ALWAYS possible that he just changed his fucking mind. And you can't toss canon over that.

Piss off.

And there's the most basic fact that "want powerful apprentice" works just as well with narcissistic, all-consuming Palpatine as anything else. There's no explicit contradiction whatsoever, and you engineer it because of your non-canon agenda. That is bullshit. Not to mention the DESB states clearly that one of the goals of Shadow Hand was to acquire a replacement for Lord Vader in Luke Skywalker. There's precisely no contradiction at all.

Palpatine declaring triumphantly to Yoda that "Lord Vader will be more powerful than either of us!" is canon. It also blasts away any nonsense that Palpatine's goals were always what Dark Empire stated.

He changed his mind? FINE. But this "Palpatine's plan was blah blah Dark Empire" thing being imprinted on the Palpatine of the films must stop. It's just not accurate. And I'm not throwing anything out- saying he's just a nutty clone is a perfectly fine rationalization, and I think it works well.

Also, where does it say Palpatine of the films is a clone?

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, in RotJ things were the same. "Take your father's place at my side!". Don't you remember that?

Ok, and this changes that Palpatine is a power-hungry narcissist who would like to live forever and rule everything? Hell wanting to dominate all the Force users possible, including the most powerful possible, fits that just dandy.

WANTING AN APPRENTICE, POWERFUL OR NOT, DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE BROAD AIMS PORTRAYED IN DE AND TH EU.

? You were the one who said that RotS Palpatine is the same as DE Palpatine.

Yeah, so? Palpatine cannot mature beyond "errr, must fulfill Sith legacy!" as a life goal?

Palpatine declaring triumphantly to Yoda that "Lord Vader will be more powerful than either of us!" is canon. It also blasts away any nonsense that Palpatine's goals were always what Dark Empire stated.

NO ONE has EVER CLAIMED that his goals were always the same. Show me one example where people said, "no, Palpatine's goals 30 years later must be the same as in the prequels, yup."

Nice strawman, Vymp. But this is your pet agenda you looked to prop up, not mine.

He changed his mind? FINE. But this "Palpatine's plan was blah blah Dark Empire" thing being imprinted on the Palpatine of the films must stop. It's just not what Palpatine was thinking.

Really? You have evidence that Palpatine was looking at the future of the Sith and wanted it to be realized by the most powerful Force user possible, and you point to evidence of ROTS. Well genius, ROTS itself renders that obsolete.

Yes, Palpatine wanted to replace Vader with Luke. But does that mean that Palpatine still needed the most powerful apprentice possible to carry-on the Sith legacy? Maybe that was a back-up plan, but by the time he found Luke, he was living on borrowed flesh, and he had no intention of that changing - ever.

Its a matter of fact Palpatine grew a cadre of dark side adepts and began planning a new stage of his Empire in the core. It is a matter of fact he began subsuming individuals and groups into his will - the depth of his consuming dark side presence is pretty clearly shown by ROTJ. The fact Palpatine wanted the most powerful apprentice possible just reflects his infinite ego and ambition, and does not contradict the EU in any way, shape, or form. The EU is just that - expanding the universe. And since the original trilogy both in filmic and novelisation format does not delve into the inner details of this, there's no contradiction in any way, shape, or form.

And even if it did, what is to say that Palpatine had multiple plans and reasons for what he did. Even if by ANH he was planning to live forever and began to thus plan to move his Empire forward, is that to say he did not want a back up plan in the most powerful apprentice possible? Irregardless of his apprentice replacing him, it certainly bolsters both the Sith's revenge against the Jedi both literally and figuratively to corrupt and turn their last hope.

And I'm not throwing anything out- saying he's just a nutty clone is a perfectly fine rationalization, and I think it works well.

No; the EGTC, the NEGTC, Gamer #5, DE - countless sources explicitly state: Palpatine's consciousness was the same as the original inhabiting the clone body of DE, and had also inhabited clone bodies before ROTJ. Not to mention this predates any tampering with his clones. They, and he, are normal, just the same fundamental individual as seen in ROTJ.

Your claims imply that he is somehow a different person; aside from the concept of maturation mentally and psychologically, there is no difference. They are the exact same person.

Also, where does it say Palpatine of the films is a clone?

Well you're wrong; the EU says that the body Palpatine inhabited during the OT was cloned.

It was not the first time I died...nor will it be the last! [emphasis mine]

There is more where that came from, and one source in particular states his habit started before ANH. I'll get back with those.

EDIT: "The Emperor's Pawns" from Gamer #5 clarifies that Palpatine "used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier" to "transmigrate his essence across lightyears" after ROTJ. This means Palpatine knew life transfer no later than one year before the Battle of Hoth.

His death had been planned for, just as he had planned for every other contingency. Still, this last time had been quite different from all the others. Previously, the clones had been only meters away and the passing voluntary, in the comfort of his chambers. Nothing like the time of betrayal by his Dark servant. This time was so abrupt and unexpected... so unpleasant that it felt as if, perhaps, a part of his being had been left in space over Endor.

He had spent over a year disembodied, formless, drifting through the maddening void of the Dark Side. He had never foreseen having to transport his spirit so far across space. He had nearly dispersed forever, but he had survived, and now need never fear death again.

The NEGTC suggests that C'boath's cloning was a test of Palpatine's cloning techniques, and engineer Bevel Lemilisk was executed and resurrected six times I believe, starting immediately after Yavin. This implies yeah Palpatine was adept and experienced at life transfer immediately after Yavin at least.

More evidence coming later...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'm really doubting some of these claims on the Alderann shield, to be brutally honest, I think they're fanwank.

They are observations. From G/Movie Canon. They have the highest precedence.

Yes. The shield flashed. Does that mean it's taking all the energy? No. It means its reflecting some of the energy. How much? Who knows.

When the energy actually starts going onto the planet (after about frame 3 in the SE, probably somewhere comparable in the DVD), the shown spectra clearly changes.

I'd be much more willing to say that the five frames were the amount of time taken ramp up the superlaser power to full and blast Alderann to bits.

No reason to think that. Besides, the damage was already hitting the planet by about frame 4.

There are numerous reasons for that, not least that if this were so, why are these systems that are both commonplace and capable of handling 1e37 J not used in turbolasers?

They are not "commonplace", for one thing. Alderaan's shielding system was about the class of the galaxy.

Why the necessity for the excessively large superlaser onf the Death Star, if the level of energy involved can be handled by much smaller components, why make the Death Star so massive at all?

Have you considered that somewhere on Alderaan, there might be huge fucking reactors and heat sinks to deal with all this? The size and complexity of the system is unknown, and there is certainly enough space on a planet as a whole to put up energy handling comparable to those of the DS.

I must also say that it is kinda funny that you only bring this most important and fundamental point in debate up after some three exchanges.

[Vympel]

Ok, and this changes that Palpatine is a power-hungry narcissist who would like to live forever and rule everything? Hell wanting to dominate all the Force users possible, including the most powerful possible, fits that just dandy.

WANTING AN APPRENTICE, POWERFUL OR NOT, DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE BROAD AIMS PORTRAYED IN DE AND TH EU.

In this thread I was concerned with his absolute canonical motivations only, not the aims displayed in the EU at a later time.

Yeah, so? Palpatine cannot mature beyond "errr, must fulfill Sith legacy!" as a life goal?

If it's actually Palpatine and not some insane clone, yes, he can. But the stuff from the EU should not be applied when talking about the films.

NO ONE has EVER CLAIMED that his goals were always the same. Show me one example where people said, "no, Palpatine's goals 30 years later must be the same as in the prequels, yup."

Nice strawman, Vymp. But this is your pet agenda you looked to prop up, not mine.[/qutoe]

II was not responding to you when I wrote my opening post. My concerns, whenever I've posted on this subject, is to draw a clear line between absolute canon Palpatine and post-RotJ, EU Palpatine. Previously, I've tried to make it clear that, for example, saying that a weak Vader is what Palpatine wanted because of *insert EU here* is pure bullshit. I didn't have this attitude before RotS, becuase I wasn't aware of RotS. When presented with new evidence, you change your conclusions!

Really? You have evidence that Palpatine was looking at the future of the Sith and wanted it to be realized by the most powerful Force user possible, and you point to evidence of ROTS. Well genius, ROTS itself renders that obsolete.

Yes, Palpatine wanted to replace Vader with Luke. But does that mean that Palpatine still needed the most powerful apprentice possible to carry-on the Sith legacy? Maybe that was a back-up plan, but by the time he found Luke, he was living on borrowed flesh, and he had no intention of that changing - ever.

Your evidence for that is wafer thin.

Its a matter of fact Palpatine grew a cadre of dark side adepts and began planning a new stage of his Empire in the core. It is a matter of fact he began subsuming individuals and groups into his will - the depth of his consuming dark side presence is pretty clearly shown by ROTJ. The fact Palpatine wanted the most powerful apprentice possible just reflects his infinite ego and ambition, and does not contradict the EU in any way, shape, or form. The EU is just that - expanding the universe. And since the original trilogy both in filmic and novelisation format does not delve into the inner details of this, there's no contradiction in any way, shape, or form.

I'm not saying there is.

And even if it did, what is to say that Palpatine had multiple plans and reasons for what he did. Even if by ANH he was planning to live forever and began to thus plan to move his Empire forward, is that to say he did not want a back up plan in the most powerful apprentice possible? Irregardless of his apprentice replacing him, it certainly bolsters both the Sith's revenge against the Jedi both literally and figuratively to corrupt and turn their last hope.

Saying that it was a "back up plan" reeks of EU supremacism. If anything was the back up plan, it was this cloning rule the universe etc business.

No; the EGTC, the NEGTC, Gamer #5, DE - countless sources explicitly state: Palpatine's consciousness was the same as the original inhabiting the clone body of DE, and had also inhabited clone bodies before ROTJ. Not to mention this predates any tampering with his clones. They, and he, are normal, just the same fundamental individual as seen in ROTJ.

The DE Sourcebook might put some doubt to that- your quote indicates for example that he might not be "all there"- which just adds to the lunacy of DE Palpatine in general.

Your claims imply that he is somehow a different person; aside from the concept of maturation mentally and psychologically, there is no difference. They are the exact same person.

That is subject to debate. Frankly, the Palpatine of DE can hardly be described as having "matured". He's a fricking lunatic, even more so than the character in the films.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In this thread I was concerned with his absolute canonical motivations only, not the aims displayed in the EU at a later time.

Purist nonsense is purist nonsense; especially when you phrase it exactly implying contradiction and overpowering by the ROTS data which predates Palpatine's late-Empire plans. Backpeddle faster, hurry now.

If it's actually Palpatine and not some insane clone, yes, he can.

Well given every piece of evidence I've posted said emphatically they are one in the same, how about you back up your claim, fuckass?

You are not allowed to treat your personal pet agendas as default assumptions, asshole.

But the stuff from the EU should not be applied when talking about the films.

No, those were the motivations of a nutty clone. Palpatine's true motivations (RotS script/novel) were nowhere near something so deranged.

Suck cock. You know just as well as I do that you weren't answering that in a "well here's what the film has told us so far." Instead you give a 90% NOVELISATION response and place it in direct contention with the EU.

Come on now, I'm sure you can bring that backpeddle to a full sprint.

II was not responding to you when I wrote my opening post.

So? You still were implying ROTS novelisation shit contradicts plans Palpatine BEGINS to apply TWENTY FIVE FUCKING YEARS LATER. Do you think I'm a fucking idiot? I've only quoted exactly what you said.

My concerns, whenever I've posted on this subject, is to draw a clear line between absolute canon Palpatine and post-RotJ, EU Palpatine.

Well you're wrong. This isn't Scooter land, and for the purposes of truth within the scope of the Star Wars Saga, everything is equal until something from the EU contradicts something in the higher canon.

What you have produced does not meet the barest standard for that, and it complete horseshit. There is no "absolute canon Palpatine" from a rational analytical perspective. That is bullshit.

Previously, I've tried to make it clear that, for example, saying that a weak Vader is what Palpatine wanted because of *insert EU here* is pure bullshit. I didn't have this attitude before RotS, becuase I wasn't aware of RotS. When presented with new evidence, you change your conclusions!

Weak Vader has what to do with Palpatine's more grand plans once he's discovered a way to avoid death and has been educating and meditating on the dark side for twenty five years since ROTS? Apples and oranges.

Besides, saying Palpatine wants a weak Vader does consistute an explicit contradiction to the contents of ROTS. This is not the case with Palpatine's early plans and Palpatine's later, more developed plans.

Your evidence for that is wafer thin

Evidence for what? Palpatine's possible motivations for wanting Skywalker for a powerful apprentice after he's become essentially immortal are irrelevent. We know as a matter of canon fact that he wanted Skywalker for a powerful Vader-replacement apprentice AND that he was immortal and had all these grand schemes developed.

My explanation is just a suggestion. But any suggestion proposing rationalization is preferable to one implying contradiction, which is why I am right and you are wrong. Because I don't magically forget canon policy when I want to toss something I don't like for subjective reasons.

Saying that it was a "back up plan" reeks of EU supremacism. If anything was the back up plan, it was this cloning rule the universe etc business.

You're asking me to believe that anyone's plan will have him die and be replaced by someone else ahead of their immortality and permanent rule? That is cretinuously stupid.

Besides, the EU is supreme because ROTS does not describe Palpatine's aims aside from a pre-Empire, pre-life transfer formula twenty-five years prior to Palpatine's newer plans. One is allowed to change their mind or brainstorm. That does not constitute an EU-canon contradiction.

The DE Sourcebook might put some doubt to that- your quote indicates for example that he might not be "all there"- which just adds to the lunacy of DE Palpatine in general.

You're a moron. That is a reference to the dark spot left above Endor that Leia encountered in Dark Force Rising.

Please, explain what part of Palpatine was left behind such that he is a "lunatic" in Dark Empire? Explain in of itself, how is Palpatine a lunatic in Dark Empire? Is it because he set up a proxy/contrived conflict and killed trillions? Because he mindfucked a powerful Jedi Knight in order to gain a new Sith Apprentice? Because that is SO MUCH DIFFERENT than the prequel trilogy, let me tell you.

You have yet to account for what is fundamentally different about the character of the Emperor in ROTJ than ROTS, especially considering he was, already, a clone in ROTJ. Like I paraphrased from Publius before, this is like claiming that Macbeth in Act III is different than Macbeth of Act II because of the emotional trauma caused by murdering the King. Its absurd.

That is subject to debate.

Than debate it. I'm not interested in your a priori assertions of truth.

Frankly, the Palpatine of DE can hardly be described as having "matured". He's a fricking lunatic, even more so than the character in the films.

How is he objectively more of a lunatic? All I see is subjective handwavium to try and engineer an irreconcilable conflict between the movies and DE such that you can waive the canonical content of DE, just as I originally asserted.

Thankfully, you're doing a very good job of fucking that up and making yourself just look like a guy with an agenda trying to twist analysis to his subjective whims.

The only thing which can disprove the sameness of being for Palpatine in DE and Palpatine in ROTJ is Return of the Jedi. I would like to see ONE single objective fact presented about the Emperor in ROTJ which makes it impossible for him to be the fundamentally same person in DE like every single EU source says he is.

And Palpatine began developing Byss and his dark side adepts and immortality and life-sucking long before ROTJ, so I don't really see how the ROTJ death will allow you to waive it as "insane clone ravings."

There is explicit canonical reference to a continuity of consciousness from ROTS to ROTJ to DE. DE Palpatine is not objectively insane or mentally ill relative to his appearance in ROTJ, and therefore they are fundamentally the same person. Don't like it due to personal taste?

[Vympel]

Purist nonsense is purist nonsense; especially when you phrase it exactly implying contradiction and overpowering by the ROTS data which predates Palpatine's late-Empire plans. Backpeddle faster, hurry now.

It's not just RotS data, its also that I've seen no indication his plans changed at any point up to RotJ. And excuse me for finding absolute canon persuasive on the issue of what his ultimate goals were than those of Dark, but I will make absolutely no apologies for that stance.

Well given every piece of evidence I've posted said emphatically they are one in the same, how about you back up your claim, fuckass?

You are not allowed to treat your personal pet agendas as default assumptions, asshole.

Flame away as much as you fucking like. Just why should I take evidence from Dark Empire as being valid information on his motivations when we're talking about the film time period? Present it, and I'll readily concede.

Suck cock. You know just as well as I do that you weren't answering that in a "well here's what the film has told us so far." Instead you give a 90% NOVELISATION response and place it in direct contention with the EU.

Come on now, I'm sure you can bring that backpeddle to a full sprint.

My position has remained fucking consistent. You know as well as fucking I do that people have been using EU sources in interpretation before, and I certainly had no "agenda" before RotS nor did I argue against it, ever. I didn't have any reason to. I'll admit I didn't have access to evidence that says Palpatine of say RotJ was a clone, however. I never thouhgt about it. And as for backpedalling, fuck you. Look at what the OP said- I gave him what the movie said and yes, I didn't think it was the same as the EU, based on the information I had.

So? You still were implying ROTS novelisation shit contradicts plans Palpatine BEGINS to apply TWENTY FIVE FUCKING YEARS LATER. Do you think I'm a fucking idiot? I've only quoted exactly what you said.

Ah, as I expected, I was "implying". Check the fucking OP. What does it say?

Well you're wrong. This isn't Scooter land, and for the purposes of truth within the scope of the Star Wars Saga, everything is equal until something from the EU contradicts something in the higher canon.

What you have produced does not meet the barest standard for that, and it complete horseshit. There is no "absolute canon Palpatine" from a rational analytical perspective. That is bullshit.

RotS added new damn evidence to the Star Wars saga and we change our fucking conclusions accordingly. I am also highly skeptical of this being Palpatine's plan at any time during the OT, and await evidence.

Weak Vader has what to do with Palpatine's more grand plans once he's discovered a way to avoid death and has been educating and meditating on the dark side for twenty five years since ROTS? Apples and oranges.

I'm illustrating what I've been trying to do, no more.

Besides, saying Palpatine wants a weak Vader does consistute an explicit contradiction to the contents of ROTS. This is not the case with Palpatine's early plans and Palpatine's later, more developed plans.

And all I've been talking about is his plans in the time period of the films. My rationalisation fo the discrepancy may be wrong, but there is a discrepancy.

Evidence for what? Palpatine's possible motivations for wanting Skywalker for a powerful apprentice after he's become essentially immortal are irrelevent. We know as a matter of canon fact that he wanted Skywalker for a powerful Vader-replacement apprentice AND that he was immortal and had all these grand schemes developed.

My explanation is just a suggestion. But any suggestion proposing rationalization is preferable to one implying contradiction, which is why I am right and you are wrong. Because I don't magically forget canon policy when I want to toss something I don't like for subjective reasons.

You're right that I don't like it for subjective reasons, I think Dark Empire, while being a cool comic, has a complete horseshit plot regarding Palpatine which cheapens RotJ immensely. Irrespective of that, proposing that Palpatine of DE was just a loon is not a "contradiction"- I'm not throwing anything out. I'll admit I wasn't aware of all the evidence howevr.

You're asking me to believe that anyone's plan will have him die and be replaced by someone else ahead of their immortality and permanent rule? That is cretinuously stupid.

Besides, the EU is supreme because ROTS does not describe Palpatine's aims aside from a pre-Empire, pre-life transfer formula twenty-five years prior to Palpatine's newer plans. One is allowed to change their mind or brainstorm. That does not constitute an EU-canon contradiction.

I'm not saying it is. And I also want to see where it says that Palpatine had all these grand plans in place by the time of RotJ as well.

You're a moron. That is a reference to the dark spot left above Endor that Leia encountered in Dark Force Rising.

A dark spot that is what exactly?

Please, explain what part of Palpatine was left behind such that he is a "lunatic" in Dark Empire? Explain in of itself, how is Palpatine a lunatic in Dark Empire? Is it because he set up a proxy/contrived conflict and killed trillions? Because he mindfucked a powerful Jedi Knight in order to gain a new Sith Apprentice? Because that is SO MUCH DIFFERENT than the prequel trilogy, let me tell you.

You have yet to account for what is fundamentally different about the character of the Emperor in ROTJ than ROTS, especially considering he was, already, a clone in ROTJ. Like I paraphrased from Publius before, this is like claiming that Macbeth in Act III is different than Macbeth of Act II because of the emotional trauma caused by murdering the King. Its absurd.

I'm not at home, so I can't give exhaustive reasons, but Luke in Dark Empire was hardly at a Darth Vader level of devotion, was he? And Palpatine was apparently so mind-addled he couldnt' tell, IIRC.

How is he objectively more of a lunatic? All I see is subjective handwavium to try and engineer an irreconcilable conflict between the movies and DE such that you can waive the canonical content of DE, just as I originally asserted.

And again with these assertions of waving canonical content. The only disagreement that actually exists is why there was a change. Not that x or y did not happen.

Thankfully, you're doing a very good job of fucking that up and making yourself just look like a guy with an agenda trying to twist analysis to his subjective whims.

I defy you to find one example of this alleged "agenda" before the RotS novelization came out. Just one. Because you're acting like a world-class asshole at the first damn time that I suggest that Palpatine in the films didn't have any of this Dark Empire stuff on his mind whatsoever. I'll accept that he might have changed his mind- what I will not accept is that he had this stuff on his mind by the time of RotJ, until presented with more evidence.

The only thing which can disprove the sameness of being for Palpatine in DE and Palpatine in ROTJ is Return of the Jedi. I would like to see ONE single objective fact presented about the Emperor in ROTJ which makes it impossible for him to be the fundamentally different person in DE.

And Palpatine began developing Byss and his dark side adepts and immortality and life-sucking long before ROTJ, so I don't really see how the ROTJ death will allow you to waive it as "insane clone ravings."

As I said, present the evidence and I'll concede. I may think Dark Empire's plot re: the Emperor is horseshit and never liked it, but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind, and I defy you to find one example of this "agenda" you've suddenly imbued me with prior to RotS information.

[Icehawk]

The OP asks what his "ultimate" goal was. After securing power and fullfilling the sith legacy by purging the Jedi his "ultimate" goal was to leach power from the citizens of the galaxy to further enhance himself. If you would have read the "Empires End" comic book (be glad if you havent though) you would see first hand that once Papatines body dies his "soul" or force ghost does indeed exist and move between bodies (you see him trying to take over baby Anakin Solo).

Therefore he IS the same person regardless of his clone body and your argument that he is "just an insane clone" as though it isnt *really* him is false.

[Vympel]

The OP asks what his "ultimate" goal was. After securing power and fullfilling the sith legacy by purging the Jedi his "ultimate" goal was to leach power from the citizens of the galaxy to further enhance himself.

Doesn't work, he must've changed his mind. He wanted Anakin Skywalker to grow more powerful than even he, and he relished the prospect.. As far as the films go, this intent continues to RotJ, where he can replace weakened Anakin with his more powerful son. I'll await the evidence for something different however.

If you would have read the "Empires End" comic book (be glad if you havent though) you would see first hand that once Papatines body dies his "soul" or force ghost does indeed exist and move between bodies (you see him trying to take over baby Anakin Solo).

I have it on .pdf, but haven't read it fully. It was too traumatic.

Therefore he IS the same person regardless of his clone body and your argument that he is "just an insane clone" as though it isnt *really* him is false.

His force ghost can dissipate and die if it doesn't immediately find a blank slate, however, and the dark side "void" is described as "maddening".

[Illuminatus Primus]

One man who took the title of Dark Jedi with pride was Jerec -- the enigmatic Force-user who murdered Kyle Katarn's father -- but he did not do so alone. Inspired by glimpses into the Emperor's Dark Side Compendium, Jerec intended to bring to fruition an experiment Palpatine had spoken of in his malignant tome: the creation of a unit of seven Dark Jedi perfectly absorbed into the Emperor's will, a "Dark Side Elite." Unfortunately for Jerec, the Emperor readily recognized the darksider's ambition and denied Jerec further access to the Compendium, ending the audacious experiment. Nonetheless, Jerec at least managed to assemble a cabal of Dark Jedi willing to do his bidding.

Jerec had no known interaction with Palpatine after Return of the Jedi; in fact, his attempted apotheosization suggests he was certain Palpatine was dead by implication. The Dark Side Compendium was written on Byss. The experiment of "seven Dark Jedi perfectly absorbed into the Emperor's will" must therefore predate Return of the Jedi. Furthermore, his Force-empowerment trick in Dark Empire II where he creates Tedryn-Sha and Xecr Nist into darksider extentions of his will is specifically a Sith secret. The Revised Core Rulebook describes that talent as part and parcel of his status as Sith Master and indicates it as an extreme high-level Sith secret. The tendency toward spiritual malignant narcissism is an integral part of Sith Mastery, therefore.

Again, Palpatine's ability to reincarnate is pretty explicitly stated to be a secret derived from the Sith Lords. The Dark Side Sourcebook states that Exar Kun's - and by extention the other Sith Lords' - ability to persist as a ghost bound to a temple or tomb as an anchor is a derivative or manifestation of the "Transfer Essence/Life Transfer" ability. Exar Kun, remember, absorbed the life essences of thousands or millions of Massassi into himself to effect his survival beyond the physical world. This has been part and parcel of being a Sith for a long time.

In the years prior to the Battle of Yavin, Byss was known as the Emperor's private retreat. Here he began quietly training Dark Side Adepts [sic], initiating men of great intelligence who had committed their lives to his service. None were permitted to ascend to his level of knowledge and proficiency, but the Adepts [sic] nonetheless became powerful Dark Side [sic] magicians in their own right.

Using their "science of darkness," they learned to feed on the life-energy of others, accumulating Force energy in their own bodies.

As you can see, Palpatine had all the pieces rather early. As Sith Master he could empower Force insensitives to see the Force and subsume them into his will. He was heir to the lore of the Sith Lords detailing the preservation of one's consciousness, at least to an extent, after death. He was heir to the draining of life essence from others. We know he could exhibit the ability to influence minds and the Force on an enormous scale.

However, in ROTS Palpatine had not yet looted the Jedi Temple for secrets nor brought Ashka Boda before his throne and had him tortured for the secrets of his Holocron. Palpatine was doomed to die with no edifice for his survival beyond maybe an advising spirit occasionally rising from the limbo and bound to a tomb on Korriban. To maintain the legacy of the Sith and ensure the Order's ascendancy and the continued grandeur of their new empire, it was imperative to acquire the greatest apprentice possible: Anakin Skywalker. Not only that, but subverting the Chosen One of Prophecy is quite the revenge of the Sith against the Jedi.

However, Palpatine does recover the missing piece of the puzzle from the Jedi. From their secrets he is able to finally reincarnate himself. Suddenly, tying together his ability to control minds across the galaxy, subsume other darksiders into his will, and feed off the energy of others is no longer a set of random tricks. With the ability to transfer his consciousness he can make it more. He establishes Byss and his adepts, and teaches them to absorb people's vitality and identity into their will. And they are subsumed into his will. The possibility of him realizing the Sith theocracy personally and forever becomes possible.

Before then it is a mere curiousity; the absorption/empowerment abilities accorded to him by his Sith Mastery are of limited utility to a mortal man. He may have toyed with the idea as a mental exercise before, this is afterall how the nuclear of his Shadow Hand strategy was developed. With immortality, the full realization of his abilities becomes apparent, and set in motion before even the Battle of Yavin. He still needs powerful darksiders to bolster his own power and to provide more raw energy for his theocracy - remember Grand Moff Trachta specifically refered to the Empire under this theocracy as a "theocracy of two" - Palpatine AND Vader. A powerful apprentice is still very important to his plans and the ascendancy of the Sith. It was one of the first goals of his Shadow Hand strategy, so it must be important. As for carrying on the Sith legacy after him, this part of the plan you cite is redundent for Palpatine no longer plans to die. However, that doesn't mean the concept as a whole is empty or defunct, and if he were to ever finally expire, his ultimate apprentice would exist to carry on the supremacy of the Sith.

I'm not at home, so I can't give exhaustive reasons, but Luke in Dark Empire was hardly at a Darth Vader level of devotion, was he? And Palpatine was apparently so mind-addled he couldnt' tell, IIRC.

I feel this needs specific addressing:

THE EMPEROR HAS TAKEN LUKE'S BETRAYAL INTO ACCOUNT

Does the Emperor know of his protege's lack of obedience? Of course he does.

"I expected to take some damage from him. Any worthy opponent is going to inflict injury... If he doesn't, he's not worth troubling with! Let a few Devestators be destroyed. Let Skywalker think he's getting the best of me. As long as he believes he's succeeding, I have him in my grasp. And as long as I hold him, the more vulnerable he becomes, to the unfathomable power of the Dark Side [sic]... Think what he'll do when he is fully mine -- when he is working for the Empire, working to help us win!"

Conferring with his most trusted officer, the Emperor counters every move that Luke makes. Quietly, the Emperor cuts his losses and maximizes his wins over his opponent.

"One day soon, Skywalker will wake up and find that he can no longer go back to his friends. He will look in a mirror and see his true face, the face of power...the face of the Dark Side [sic]."

Palpatine is using a different paradigm to corrupt Luke. He knows Luke has been tainted by the dark side; remember what Yoda said - "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." He brings Luke to Byss, to his Citadel. Luke doesn't stand a chance in a direct contest against Palpatine. Yet unchecked, Palpatine will destroy the Republic and reconquer the galaxy, and do who knows what to his sister. He offers him a contest of wills - openly challenges him to attempt to conquer the dark side from within. Having no real choice, Luke joins Palpatine. Realizing he needs to convince Palpatine, he begins doing dark things, actually learning dark abilities, all the while telling himself he's plotting to undermine and defeat Palpatine. But all the while he's responsible for killing millions or billions of Mon Calamari and Quarren alone, and who knows how many on other worlds. His facade begins to turn him to the dark side for real. Palpatine is modeling his approach with Luke to the corruption of Ulic Qel-Droma by the Krath.

[Vympel]

Very comprehensive- I concede the point.