Maybe Palpatine was correct. The Sith is not evil...

[Iceberg]

If that's so, it sucks so much it cannot enforce its decrees. It is a lousy government that enforces decrees everywhere, but a government that cannot enforce its decrees when it is necessary is worthless.

This is the galactic equivalent of the police sending in a negotiator to talk with hostage-grabbing criminals, but have no SWAT or even any assault team to back him up.

In case you haven't noticed, a pair of Jedi Knights are negotiator and SWAT team in one package.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

In case you haven't noticed, a pair of Jedi Knights are negotiator and SWAT team in one package.

That were nearly murdered when the shit hit the fan. If not for an huge chain of lucky events starting with the meeting of Jar-Jar Binks, Naboo would have been in TF hands, pure and simple.

How about a real backup?

[Iceberg]

In case you haven't noticed, a pair of Jedi Knights are negotiator and SWAT team in one package.

That were nearly murdered when the shit hit the fan. If not for an huge chain of lucky events starting with the meeting of Jar-Jar Binks, Naboo would have been in TF hands, pure and simple.

How about a real backup?

The TradeFed tried to murder them. They were nowhere even close to succeeding, or did you miss the part of the film where the gas hadn't affected Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in the slightest and they proceeded to make scrap metal of the Neimoidians' droid army?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The TradeFed tried to murder them. They were nowhere even close to succeeding, or did you miss the part of the film where the gas hadn't affected Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in the slightest and they proceeded to make scrap metal of the Neimoidians' droid army?

Yes, then those shielded droidekas came, and they were doing all they can just to deflect the bolts.

The point is that even when an upstart power tries to assassinate the guys they sent as representatives, the OR either lacks the spine or ability to respond. I'm sorry that I must disagree with your apparent viewpoint that this is an acceptable situation for a superior government.

[Iceberg]

How about "When you try to fix a broken system, do make sure that your fixes actually improve the situation"?

From Palpatine's POV, the Empire WAS an improvement over the Republic, it gave him UNLIMITED POWER!!!. From everybody else's... well, the Rebel Alliance didn't grow in a vacuum.

[Iceberg]

The TradeFed tried to murder them. They were nowhere even close to succeeding, or did you miss the part of the film where the gas hadn't affected Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in the slightest and they proceeded to make scrap metal of the Neimoidians' droid army?

Yes, then those shielded droidekas came, and they were doing all they can just to deflect the bolts.

They were stalemated. The Droidekas couldn't kill them (because they couldn't get a shot past their lightsabers), and they couldn't kill the Droidekas (because the Droidekas did not have enough firepower to kill themselves if hit by their own fire). If they were doing "all they can just to deflect the bolts" they would not have been able to escape, which they did quite easily. Did you watch the same movie I did? Because you seem not to have.

The point is that even when an upstart power tries to assassinate the guys they sent as representatives, the OR either lacks the spine or ability to respond. I'm sorry that I must disagree with your apparent viewpoint that this is an acceptable situation for a superior government.

You idiot. I'm not arguing that the OR was acceptable, but that the Empire is worse.

[Iceberg]

Gee, Kaz, you don't think SENATOR PALPATINE could have been, you know, manipulating the Old Republic government to make it less effective and mire it down in more and more senseless bickering in order to engineer his takeover... him being, you know, a Dark Lord of the Sith and all?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Gee, Kaz, you don't think SENATOR PALPATINE could have been, you know, manipulating the Old Republic government to make it less effective and mire it down in more and more senseless bickering in order to engineer his takeover... him being, you know, a Dark Lord of the Sith and all?

Why don't you go back and read some of my comments all the way back on the first page?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

They were stalemated. The Droidekas couldn't kill them (because they couldn't get a shot past their lightsabers), and they couldn't kill the Droidekas (because the Droidekas did not have enough firepower to kill themselves if hit by their own fire). If they were doing "all they can just to deflect the bolts" they would not have been able to escape, which they did quite easily. Did you watch the same movie I did? Because you seem not to have.

The important point is that they could not achieve their objective, were forced to break off and go into hiding. Which is OK, except the OR had nothing to back them up.

You idiot. I'm not arguing that the OR was acceptable, but that the Empire is worse.

A good start. You will note that we don't think the Empire is great either, just that the NR (and perhaps the OR by TPM) was worse.

[Iceberg]

Gee, Kaz, you don't think SENATOR PALPATINE could have been, you know, manipulating the Old Republic government to make it less effective and mire it down in more and more senseless bickering in order to engineer his takeover... him being, you know, a Dark Lord of the Sith and all?

Why don't you go back and read some of my comments all the way back on the first page?

Whiny justifications about an Imperial Security Bureau investigation uncovering corruption in the preceding Republic government... excuse me if I'm not finding that particularly compelling evidence of (a) significant corruption predating Palpatine's entry into galactic politics or (b) anything, really, considering that the Imperial Government basically exists on Old Wrinkly's say-so.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Whiny justifications about an Imperial Security Bureau investigation uncovering corruption in the preceding Republic government... excuse me if I'm not finding that particularly compelling evidence of (a) significant corruption predating Palpatine's entry into galactic politics or (b) anything, really, considering that the Imperial Government basically exists on Old Wrinkly's say-so.

This just shows everything that goes wrong with too many people when debating this topic.
1) ISB in this context stands for the Imperial Sourcebook, which is compiled by a Rebel Major called Hextrophon (IMO, this was his best work, and by extension is WEG's best work).
1a) In this case, the stuff is dredged from Ch.1, a Rebel-written summary of how the Empire came into form. Do you think an Imperial author would start his chapter with "There is a darkness in the galaxy. There is the Galactic Empire."
1b) There are chapters within the ISB written by Imperials (and hand-picked by Hextrophon). Even then, the chapters are often written by rival organizations or at least organizations without interests. For example, Chapter 2 is Imperial Intelligence writing about COMPNOR, while Chapter 3 is the inverse. Chapter 4 is a "compilation" (Hextrophon wrote it except for special quotations). Chapter 5-7 are reports, but they mostly contain technical stuff with little political agenda beyond whether to build them or not. Chapters 8 through 11 don't have sources, and are presumably compiled by Hextrophon with the exception of a few quotations. Chapter 12 may be the only one that's biased, with a quote Imperial Security Bureau orders and stuff apparently pulled off Imperial recruiting pamphlets.

2) Your reaction to your suspicion it was written by the Imperial Security Bureau says much. You might realize that most of the stuff you see is from the Rebel viewpoint. Even though they themselves are knowingly not totally honest - the Endor Holocaust coverup and the denial of Alderaan's shield (DESB). Yet you would apparently accept such things without hesitation or cross examination. Yet if the Imperials wrote it, you would automatically assume it was false without even consideration to content or plausibility - hell, you won't even check whether ISB might have meant something other than "Imperial Security Bureau" in the context. This kind of reaction is lazy, and annoys me greatly.

3) What I really wanted you to note are the ones that acknowledge Palpatine shook the tree (no point in denying this), but the tree won't break if it was strong. This is another thing that annoys me. People see the Old or New Republic teetering and falling, and blame it on the particular person shaking the Republic Tree, without noting that the real reason (and thus most of the real blame) for the problem was that the Republic tree was too fragile.

[Kurgan]

I don't know. Imperial presence was visible even in far off places like Tatooine.

Arguably, they "Imperial presence" on Tatooine was soley to recover the missing data tapes. Luke's friends believe that if it were threatened, the Empire wouldn't even fight to save the system, since it's a "big hunk of nothing." The fact that Crimelords rule unopposed is also a hint that the Imperial presence, if it exists on Tatooine, is nominal at best. Was slavery practiced in the Empire? Apparently so. So in areas where the Empire could have done something to improve they didn't, striving instead of political expediency. So the famous law & order argument, has its downsides. I know we've been all over, but there you go.

IMHO, the problems were exacerberated by the Sith, but without a weak Republic, they would never have gotten that far.

I can't argue with that.

On the other hand, giving the power to the hands to fewer people may have allowed a superior ability to mobilize resources.

Right, I'm sure dictators have done good things too (like universal healthcare or building highways and such), on the other hand since dissent is considered treason, even crazy ideas by dictators can be done, at the cost of efficiency and common sense. Palpatine's squandering of resources on super weapons designed to terrorize his own populance come to mind here.

Considering that they now decided most Jedi are conscripts from birth, this argument of traitor does weaken a bit.

An excellent point. We don't really know how much choice (if any) people have in joining the Order, and that few have left could be chalked up to effective brainwashing. Still, the Sith could have left the Order in peace, instead of starting a thousand year war, couldn't they?

I mean the Jedi didn't go after Dooku until they were ordered to and he had started killing their people.

Their desire for power ultimately drove them to destruction in each case. The Jedi chose service. Granted, you could argue they were enforcers of the corrupt state, but at least they were not the State Itself.

Besides, if you kill people just because they don't agree with you ... gee, shades of the Galactic Empire, anyone?

Do we have evidence that the Jedi Order staged an inquisition or jihad against the Sith because of heretical teachings? If we assume that, then yes, the Jedi certainly are intolerant jerks.

Or maybe they were realists, and realized that even if they tried and overthrew the Empire somehow, they got nothing good to replace it with - a much better attitude if you ask me than that bunch of "heroes" who let's skip the rest.

I see it more like "why bother, we'll just all get killed trying." The Empire was just too powerful. Their terror techniques worked on the average person. Then again, extreme acts like Alderaan motivated a lot of fence sitters to join the Alliance apparently.

Why? (No, this is no sarcasm. I really don't understand this and request clarification).

Okay, this is a spoiler, but here's how I see it: The leaders of the future Empire acquired the Death Star plans far in advance, at least 3 years before the Empire was declared. Likewise construction of the first Death Star superweapon, or prototype, whatever that thing was we see at the end, was begun before the Rebellion. In other words, it's not as if there was this rebel crisis going on and the Empire was forced to build a "justice star" to stop the chaos. Rather the weapon was built first, tested, and this took the tiny Rebel movement that had emerged 20 years later and gained them sympathy and support from other systems. So in a sense the Empire created the Rebellion and gave it strength, perhaps unintentionally.

IF they never have to use it, the weapon served its purpose just fine.

At this point, we get into the argument that there is no way to stop a planetary shield, except blowing up the planet, and that was how the other debate ended, so I'll pass on that one. I'd argue they never "had" to use it, they chose to build it, they chose to use it, so their hand was never forced.

Sometimes, I don't understand Star Wars. I can understand they are at least trying to say "Tolitarianism is Bad" (though IMO the events they provide are sometimes not as solid as the authors wish they were). What I can't see is whether they are trying to say "Democracy is Good" or "Democracy is even Worse."

How about Democracy isn't something you can get comfortable with, that you can just assume will always be around. You have to constantly nurture and defend it. This gets repeated over and over by people like Amidala and Jamila in the prequels. Democracy is not a perfect system, it requires eternal vigilance. Dictatorships are easy. Throw morality to the wind and just do what it takes to stay in power. And if you're under one, just let the leader handle everything, and hope that your loyalty never comes into question or you need to be made an example of.

Now I think I see what you're getting at, why doesn't Star Wars go into detail like "how would you IMPROVE the Republic" other than just assuming after a thousand years or so this is "most efficient" democracy.

For one thing I am not sure it makes sense that the Senators all have to be in that giant room at once. Couldn't they just holograms or something? But it looks really cool to see all those pods, and they have hyperdrive and such, so maybe it isn't quite so crazy.

If they are trying to say "Democracy is Good", why is it that in the entire period of available High-Res (basically from TPM to the end of NJO), democracies tend to look rather fractitious, inefficient ... etc?

Because in a democracy people are not (as Anakin puts it) "made to agree." People have different opinions. But if you don't let people disagree, then you have more of a dictatorship, because you take that decision making power away from people (who will disagree and be selfish) and put it into the hands of a small few or one and his whim is law. Now granted, couldn't they have a constitutional monarchy or communism or something? Perhaps, but the classic clash in philosophy is democracy vs. dictatorship and what people are most familiar with. It's a big contrast.

The authors of course try to blame other things - Sith, Imperial Remnant, Zsinj, Yevethan, Vong ... but if democracy is strong, the events they depicted simply shouldn't have bounced off.

I don't see the point. If anything they are portraying Democracy realistically, by not portraying it as a perfect system with no problems whatsoever. Dictatorships are portrayed also as perpetuating great evil. I think the idea is that while both have strengths and weaknesses, it's better to choose the Democratic path. It may not be easy, but in the end its better than the alternative.

Maybe as Lucas said, the best government is a benevolent dictatorship (but that's a pipe dream, as Mike says in his article).

[Iceberg]

Besides, if you kill people just because they don't agree with you ... gee, shades of the Galactic Empire, anyone?

Do we have evidence that the Jedi Order staged an inquisition or jihad against the Sith because of heretical teachings? If we assume that, then yes, the Jedi certainly are intolerant jerks.

Quite the opposite, actually: The Jedi eventually determined to wipe out the Sith after several attempts by the Sith to wipe out the Jedi, such as the ones chronicled in Tales of the Jedi, Knights of the Old Republic and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords.

[Vympel]

This argument about the Galactic Republic being mired/ineffective because of Palpatine is BS, even if one doesn't use the ISB. Read the RotJ novelization. It says specifically that Palpatine seized on factors already there, he didn't create them.

[Drooling Iguana]

He did make them worse, though.

[Rogue 9]

Just think about it, what makes the Galactic Empire and the Sith SO evil compared to the Old Republic and the Jedi?

The Empire destroys planets, enslaves populations, and are arseholes. The OR does neither.

The Sith kill people and have no problem with that. The Jedi kill people, but do so out of defence.

The GE and Sith are evil. They may look good, but so what?

The Empire destroyed a planet to make a point to stop the Rebellion. If there had been no rebellion, no dead planets. You can said that the Sith/Empire killed people to end the rebellion and bring order to the galaxy (quote Vader).

Let us rephrase.

Hitler destroyed Europe to make a point when they didn't just up and surrender. If there had been no resistance, no Second World War. You can said that the Third Reich killed people to end the war and bring order to the planet.

Still sound good?

[Darth Wong]

Gee, Kaz, you don't think SENATOR PALPATINE could have been, you know, manipulating the Old Republic government to make it less effective and mire it down in more and more senseless bickering in order to engineer his takeover... him being, you know, a Dark Lord of the Sith and all?

I'm not going to contest that Senator Palpatine was a bad guy. After all, he was controlling both sides of an ultimately pointless war! But it's absurd to think that the Republic would have been some kind of kumbaya happy-place if Senator Palpatine were not there. There are plenty of flaws in the human condition which can lead to corruption, influence peddling, greed, and breakdown of democracy without a Sith Lord having to get involved.

[Vympel]

A sorta related/unrelated note, but not worth starting a new thread over I think, I watched the ending typical "happy parade" scene at the end of TPM last night. Seeing Palpatine among the full cast ensmeble, smiling and happy, just another member of the victorious Republic ... gave me the shivers.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Particularly since the music was a rescoring of the Emperor's theme from RotJ.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Right, I'm sure dictators have done good things too (like universal healthcare or building highways and such), on the other hand since dissent is considered treason, even crazy ideas by dictators can be done, at the cost of efficiency and common sense. Palpatine's squandering of resources on super weapons designed to terrorize his own populance come to mind here.

In firepower:cost, the Death Star was quite efficient.

With a normal democracy against the Empire, I won't have said this, precisely because of the above. Unfortunately, we are talking the NR and the TPM-era OR here for comparisons.

I mean the Jedi didn't go after Dooku until they were ordered to and he had started killing their people.

Probably the Separatists had something to do with this. They don't want to further provoke them. They are still thinking of him as a "political idealist".

Okay, this is a spoiler, but here's how I see it: The leaders of the future Empire acquired the Death Star plans far in advance, at least 3 years before the Empire was declared. Likewise construction of the first Death Star superweapon, or prototype, whatever that thing was we see at the end, was begun before the Rebellion. In other words, it's not as if there was this rebel crisis going on and the Empire was forced to build a "justice star" to stop the chaos. Rather the weapon was built first, tested, and this took the tiny Rebel movement that had emerged 20 years later and gained them sympathy and support from other systems. So in a sense the Empire created the Rebellion and gave it strength, perhaps unintentionally.

They apparently had prototypes built. Since this is a secret prototype, how could it have "created the Rebellion"?

At this point, we get into the argument that there is no way to stop a planetary shield, except blowing up the planet, and that was how the other debate ended, so I'll pass on that one. I'd argue they never "had" to use it, they chose to build it, they chose to use it, so their hand was never forced.

In a way, you always choose to use weapons. Even if a criminal was pointing a gun at you, it is still your choice to fire back.

For one thing I am not sure it makes sense that the Senators all have to be in that giant room at once. Couldn't they just holograms or something? But it looks really cool to see all those pods, and they have hyperdrive and such, so maybe it isn't quite so crazy.

There is something to be said for face-to-face discussions.

Because in a democracy people are not (as Anakin puts it) "made to agree." People have different opinions.

This almost works until NJO, when apparently, these different opinions become more important than their own collective survival...

I don't see the point. If anything they are portraying Democracy realistically, by not portraying it as a perfect system with no problems whatsoever. Dictatorships are portrayed also as perpetuating great evil. I think the idea is that while both have strengths and weaknesses, it's better to choose the Democratic path. It may not be easy, but in the end its better than the alternative.

They've gone way beyond depicting "realistic" democracy and into depicting anarchy. In TPM, we note that the "Federal" government would not do anything solid when a corporation blockades a "town", even if they tried to kill the religious mediators of the government.

Zsinj was a joke deserving special mention. In Solo Command (as you probably already know), he had a plan involving brainwashing certain species to be terrorists. Well, that's his perogative as an enemy, I guess. What was incredible was that the New Republic top leadership, supposedly made to put a stop to Imperial racism (among other things) fell for it. Within a few incidents, they chose to ban certain species entirely from service. An analogy would be the America banning Muslims from service after 9/11. That hardly speaks well of this Provisional Council's true commitment to an equal world for all (and hey, all those planets took great risks to join you for hope of just that!)

As for Vong, they deserve even more mention. This is the equivalent of the Japanese nuking (not just bombing) Pearl Harbor, but the US (which we'd say can make nukes of its own) doesn't just go up in the historical united outrage. The IJA then start landing a couple of battalions (not divisions, battalions) on America. Instead of being squashed like an ant, they keep batting past platoons and companies of scattered US resistance over years, and still the US won't pull together. Occasionally, they nuke an American city that puts up resistance. Still the Americans won't pull together or develop their own nukes. The Japanese make it all the way to Washington and make a 3-division assault. The US barely scrapes together 1-division and loses the city! And the power ratio between the galaxy of NR and the Vong on their dying worldships is far greater than Japan vs US.

[dworkin]

You see the problem? People are so certain the Empire is evil they think they don't have to prove it is anymore. Generally, when you say someone or something is evil, the onus is on you.

You are the one making the claim. You defend it. Make a case for the empire.

As an aside having just played KOTOR I can see that the Sith from that era were not evil. Merely morons who evidently were dropped on their heads at birth and repeatedly hit with the stupid stick.

[NecronLord]

You see the problem? People are so certain the Empire is evil they think they don't have to prove it is anymore. Generally, when you say someone or something is evil, the onus is on you.

We were introduced to it as 'The evil Galactic Empire" no? I'd say that you would have to actively disprove the ANH opening crawl to claim that it is not evil.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sometimes, I don't understand Star Wars. I can understand they are at least trying to say "Tolitarianism is Bad" (though IMO the events they provide are sometimes not as solid as the authors wish they were). What I can't see is whether they are trying to say "Democracy is Good" or "Democracy is even Worse." If they are trying to say "Democracy is Good", why is it that in the entire period of available High-Res (basically from TPM to the end of NJO), democracies tend to look rather fractitious, inefficient ... etc? The authors of course try to blame other things - Sith, Imperial Remnant, Zsinj, Yevethan, Vong ... but if democracy is strong, the events they depicted simply shouldn't have bounced off.

Star Wars' chief message seems to be (like it or not) that certain cherished institutions are noble, but weak. Democracy is good, but weak. Prone to corruption, regionalism, factionalism, etc. The Light Side of the Force is good, but despite all of Yoda's spin-doctoring, it is also weak. Passive, unwilling to proactively fight injustice, emotionally barren, etc.

Conversely, in Star Wars, evil is strong. The Dark Side of the Force gives power. UNLIMITED POWER!!!!! And an Empire is strong; able to rule a civilization that tends to tear itself apart without a strong hand, and able to defend against external threats which can push a democracy to the brink of collapse.

If one is to derive a moralistic message out of that, it can only be that good will never triumph over evil by sheer force of arms, but by some other means.

I'm not sure; the corruption as seen from the perspective of the films is purely an engineered and contrived problem due to the machinations of the Sith exploiting in-place weaknesses, as opposed to a passive and naturally decay due to typical corruption. Moreover, Star Wars also portrays the Republic as lasting a thousand generations before the Sith could topple it. The Jedi believed to have hunted the Sith to extinction in antiquity. I'm not sure how weak the good guys are supposed to be.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'm not sure; the corruption as seen from the perspective of the films is purely an engineered and contrived problem due to the machinations of the Sith exploiting in-place weaknesses, as opposed to a passive and naturally decay due to typical corruption. Moreover, Star Wars also portrays the Republic as lasting a thousand generations before the Sith could topple it. The Jedi believed to have hunted the Sith to extinction in antiquity. I'm not sure how weak the good guys are supposed to be.

Honestly, after seeing TPM-OR and the EU NR (the high-resolution scan zone) - if those represent the caliber of people we tend to get in the SW galaxy, I am beginning to wonder how well even the older OR worked at all (past that initial burst of mutual enthusiasm that set it up). I wonder whether it spent most of its time just kinda muddling around - it was "allowed" to stay because a Republic looked good and it really didn't govern much at all. But Palpy needed it gone so he could start his trip as Emperor, so he pushes a pillar here, a frame there, and the house of cards falls down.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm not sure; the corruption as seen from the perspective of the films is purely an engineered and contrived problem due to the machinations of the Sith exploiting in-place weaknesses, as opposed to a passive and naturally decay due to typical corruption. Moreover, Star Wars also portrays the Republic as lasting a thousand generations before the Sith could topple it. The Jedi believed to have hunted the Sith to extinction in antiquity. I'm not sure how weak the good guys are supposed to be.

Honestly, after seeing TPM-OR and the EU NR (the high-resolution scan zone) - if those represent the caliber of people we tend to get in the SW galaxy, I am beginning to wonder how well even the older OR worked at all (past that initial burst of mutual enthusiasm that set it up). I wonder whether it spent most of its time just kinda muddling around - it was "allowed" to stay because a Republic looked good and it really didn't govern much at all. But Palpy needed it gone so he could start his trip as Emperor, so he pushes a pillar here, a frame there, and the house of cards falls down.

That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. You're expecting me to believe the most stable state of political equilibrium is the 25-year Empire over the 25,000-year Republic? And you're basing this on what? The death thros thirteen years before the Empire?

Does the term poorly representative sample mean anything to you? The classical, especially pre-Ruusan Republic is clearly the most stable "ground state" of the static Galaxy Far, Far Away civilization. Simple duration and longevity makes that obvious, just as it obviously makes the developmental stasis a fact.