Sand People

[Slartibartfast]

Methinks you are reading too much into it. Sand planet usually has sea people. Water planet has water people. A lava planet (with life) may have lava people. It's simple derivative to make an entire planet out of an extreme climate, then populate it with people adapted to live in it.

Sand people don't have sietches, I don't see how much they are "religious" (granted I've never read The Tusken Bible or whatever it might called in the EU) and they have a "religious connection to animals" as much as they use Banthas like a nomad would use elephants or camels.

They don't wear any kind of extra-special protective piss-poo-recycling suit, and don't try to change the basic government or anything. They wear simple robes, with what you could call a mask (didn't some nomads wore turbans?) and they are in general bandits.

So I say, saying that Sand People have a lot in common and are based on the Fremen is a gigantic leap in logic. What they have in common with Fremen, they have in common with desert nomads, nothing more.

[Kurgan]

It's not a leap in logic, as anyone can see, and if anything, "Outlander" helps the case more than it hurts it.

All I know about the Sandpeople outside of the canon films, is in that comic, and one of the EU novels (I'm sorry I forget which).

But in that novel, basically Luke is in disguise, and he's following a bunch of Bantha riders. A Tusken who has lost his Bantha is set loose by his tribe in the desert. Because the loss of a Bantha is a traumatic experience and he must be "bonded" with a new Bantha. They make it sound like there's a good chance he won't bond with a new one and he'll die, but he has to do it, because it's tradition.

That, and in "Outlander" a Tusken who loses his hand in battle has to stay behind and kill himself because 'anyone with two hands can hold a gaffi stick.'

And they consider flesh "vulgur" so they cover everything. They wear breath masks, and all sorts of stuff under their bandages. It appears they have breath filters and other gear built into their suits, which makes sense.

But again, nobody else on Tatooine is shown wearing that stuff. So its likely they do so because they live in the deep desert.

Let's think about this... where, in sci fi, do you read about a group of fierce nomadic tribesmen, who wear environmental gear, who live on a desert planet, before "Dune"?

Dune was popular (still is) and it came out 11 years before Star Wars ANH (the novel, which came out 1 year before the movie). EU authors continue to mine Dune for ideas, so I don't think it is surprising that Lucas started that.

Plasteel, for example, is a term originating in Dune. ; ) Although "plastone" didn't catch on.

Now, I'm not trying to make an appeal to authority, but Frank Herbert is the one who thinks that Star Wars borrowed some of his ideas from Dune.

I'm not saying he sued Lucas for plagiarism, no, he just noticed how similar a later sci fi was to his own creation. Nothing wrong with that.

Surely, he knows his own sci fi well enough to see that similarity, and it isn't like he was so hard up for attention that he had to cry foul against Star Wars. Heck, Dune has gotten two movie treatments (with another on the way) and a new book series (with, surprise, surprise.. the infamous SW EU author Kevin J. Anderson).

I'm sure that some EU authors watch Kurosawa films, Flash Gordon, and read Dune to get ideas. After all, if those are the primary sources, surely there's more where that came from?

[Kurgan]

So I say, saying that Sand People have a lot in common and are based on the Fremen is a gigantic leap in logic. What they have in common with Fremen, they have in common with desert nomads, nothing more.

I think you mean to say that "to say that the Sand People are a direct rip-off of the Fremen is a leap in logic" (though I'd disagree).

Noticing similarities between the two sci fi peoples is merely observation, and while subject to interpretation it is perfectly valid.

In religious studies, people see similarities between flood myths of various cultures. That doesn't prove outright that one culture stole from another, but the possibility of influence is obviously a possibility.

Surely an open minded person can admit that possibility here.

[Lord Pounder]

Luke spends some time with the Sand People at the begining of DarkSaber.

[Kurgan]

That must have been it then. I knew there was a reason I blotted that novel out of my mind! ; P

[Ghost Rider]

The whole story as related to us from Ellison who knew Herbert was that Herbert thought Lucas plagarized and found out he took only very superficial notions.

Thus why I call it a leap of logic...they are related in the same way that Herbert took a great deal from desert nomad and other culture of earth.

Saying the Sand people are from Lucas' world the Fremen is literally trying to see something that Lucas never cared was there...and using EU does not help in the argument since EU is under Lucas' auspices but not his work directly.

[Kurgan]

It is a complex issue. I feel the EU authors are definately looking to Dune for inspiration on the Sandpeople, but that doesn't mean Lucas had to, no.

So is Herbert just mistaken? Did Lucas draw no influence from Dune whatsoever?

Your theory of his creating the Sandpeople purely out of nomadic earth cultures sounds plausible, if Dune didn't exist, but it does, and so you have to admit that there's a possibility he read Dune and was inspired by it in some way. Just as he was inspired by Ford, and Kurosawa, and Flash Gordon, etc. all of which he has publically ADMITTED he was inspired by.

Now I have yet to read anything where Lucas says "Herbert/Dune inspired me" so who knows, but an observer can see similarities. And its not just the Sandpeople either, there are other close paralells between parts of Star Wars and Dune. And yes, on the one hand, you have Lucas's canon films that have resemblances, and then on the other you have EU authors with further/different parallels, which are not the same thing.

I believe in the Classic Star Wars graphic novel "Escape to Hoth" in the preface/introduction, it is admitted that inspiration was drawn from Flash Gordon to do the material, and I think this isn't surprising, considering the original Star Wars draws inspiration from it, and this is widely accepted as true and not reflecting negatively on Lucas.

He just took a bunch of sci fi he liked as a younger man and from pop culture he grew up in, and added it to help color his story of Star Wars.

I will admit that the Sandpeople are "different enough" from the Fremen to say they aren't just a carbon copy, but I will say I agree with Herbert that they were inspired. I thought that even before I read about his opinion of it, which tells you something. And I like Star Wars better than Dune and saw/read it first...

[Kurgan]

Another example, and I'm gonna get flamed for this I know... but let's look at the realm of Science Fiction.

It's a community of stories, authors, movies, etc. it's a genre.

So it's more logical to look for inspirations and borrowing WITHIN that genre than outside.

We know that Lucas borrowed from Samurai stories, tales of Knighthood, Westerns, the Heroic Journey, the whole nine yards, outside of Sci Fi, but he also has some parallels happening with other, earlier, popular sci fi.

For example "proton torpedoes" .... mmm.... "photon torpedoes" even sounds similar. ; )

And Flash Gordon, and Buck Rogers, etc etc. I see Lucas as paying tribute to that other Sci Fi, not ripping it off, but you guys seem loath to admit that Lucas didn't just make it all up out of his own head. Does it really diminish the story that much to admit it?

And if you want to take it to other sci fi, yes, it all comes from someplace.. Star Trek (TOS) itself reads a lot like a frontier western serial, or 20,000 leagues under the sea, even something like Forbidden Planet (I'd have to check the date on that one though).

[Ghost Rider]

He may have taken it...but the allusion is weaker given they have more similarities to Arab nomads in the movies...hell in AoTC the had more similarities to Arab nomads than the Fremen.

Not saying he might've not been influenced on things...because he obviously was, but the say he took the Fremen because he knew of no other desert people is a leap of logic.

[Kurgan]

As I pointed out, making a comparision is NOT a leap in logic. Anybody can see the similarities.

I think you're being a little more defensive, perhaps because you think I'm attacking Star Wars as being unoriginal. I assure you that's not what I'm trying to do.

The Sand People are largely undeveloped in terms of characterisation and history in the canon films, but then so are most of the aliens we meet. The focus is on the human characters (with some exceptions, like the droids, yoda, chewie, etc) for the most part.

I felt that in AOTC, the Tuskens were being compared to the hollywood version of Native Americans, exemplified in the Ford film "The Searchers." They are backward, barbaric, hated and feared by their neighbors. They live in wigwam-like dwellings and their dogs fight over bones by campfires.

They kidnap and torture enemies, and are portrayed as being war-like and their society as being warrior-centered.

Though they are despised by their white, "more civilized" neighbors (settlers --- moisture farmers), and yet we feel some sympathy for them because their women and children fall victim to the vengance of the brutality of white men as well (John Wayne's character for example and the US Cavalry in "Searchers", Anakin in AOTC and the Imperial forces in ANH).

Also, the desert nomads thing can apply here, in that they ride Banthas instead of horses or camals. They wear the desert robes (which Native Americans usually aren't portrayed as wearing).

But, again, as much as Tatooine reminds one of Arrakis (without the spice, although the "spice trade" exists in Star Wars, we don't know what the spice actually "is" except in the EU). We don't see Sand Worms, but we do see the Sarlacc (which after the Special Edition treatment to ROTJ looked like a close cousin of the worms we see in Dune). Heck, even "Tremors" has Dune to thank for what the worms look like, in large part.

And then there's Jabba the Hutt... Leto II is a worm personified, and I can't help be reminded of that here. Although there are other "floating fatmen" that could help inspire a Hutts personality : )

and lets not forget the giant "space slug" that the Falcon encounters in ESB

So theres a lot of "little ways" in which Dune is paid homage in Star Wars as I see it

[Ghost Rider]

Kessel(Spice mine of Kessel...mentioned in the first movie)

and as I said leap of logic.

Thinking Jabba as a giant slug...one that he didn't even envision to begin with(1977 Jabba was a fat man)...as Leto II is even more so given the difference in description and role the two play.

And suddenly a desert planet is Arrakis?

Seriously he took more from Arab nomads with Sand people then he did with the Fremen.

I mean let's see a bunch of roving nomads who live in small village that cover themselves to protect from the sun using primitive weapons and ride large herd like beasts

vs

a warrior clad race of people who value water as the highest thing in the universe control a beast that rules the sands, and are in search of messiah.

Yes...I see the vast similarities.

[Kurgan]

Kessel(Spice mine of Kessel...mentioned in the first movie)

and as I said leap of logic.

How many times do I have to say it? Making comparisons is NOT a leap in logic! A leap in logic would be to say that Dune copied off of Star Wars, which I haven't said. ; )

Spice exists in Star Wars, just not as a major export of Tatooine, but its there... interesting.

Thinking Jabba as a giant slug...one that he didn't even envision to begin with(1977 Jabba was a fat man)...as Leto II is even more so given the difference in description and role the two play.

Leto II appears in the '81 novel as a giant slug-man, who runs a vast Empire. Now one is a god-emperor, the other is an underworld crimelord, but you still see a parallell. Heck, that series of "Jabba the Hutt" comics reminded me a lot of the way that Leto II does business... even the part where he squashes people by "hopping" or "rolling" on them. ; )

The descriptions of the two are very similar, despite the fact that Jabba the Hutt doesn't make an appearance until 1983, in Return of the Jedi (before the special editions).

And suddenly a desert planet is Arrakis?

Arrakis isn't Tatooine, but it shares some similarities, as I've pointed out.
But sure, why not? How many all desert planets (that form the centerpiece for a story) have we seen in Sci Fi? Dune made it chic. Star Wars continued this tradition. Notice how its not just a fly by night planet, but looms large throughout both trilogies.

Seriously he took more from Arab nomads with Sand people then he did with the Fremen.

If I were using your debate tactics, I'd say you were making a leap in logic by claiming that he took the Sandpeople from Arab nomads. Do Arab nomads go "honk honk honk"? Do they ride Banthas? Do Arab nomads live on a desert planet? Do Arab nomads wear bandages and breathmask devices over their faces? Do Arab nomads use Gaffi sticks?

But no, I am not going to argue that. Rather, I'm surprised you haven't been able to see similarities between Fremen and Sandpeople, as sci fi characters. Oh well...

I mean let's see a bunch of roving nomads who live in small village that cover themselves to protect from the sun using primitive weapons and ride large herd like beasts

Sounds like Fremen to me, except that worms don't travel in herds, but the Fremen definately ride them around!

vs

a warrior clad race of people who value water as the highest thing in the universe control a beast that rules the sands, and are in search of messiah.

Other than searching for a messiah, I think that fits the Sandpeople pretty well.

Yes...I see the vast similarities.

Like the evil Emperor and his plotting, manipulating people against each other behind the scenes... and the powerful prescient orders, and the close relation between the good guys and the bad guys. Heck, swords are even a major weapon in Dune, they just don't light up and glow like Lucas's. Didn't Lucas's early scripts call for shields (as well as sabers) being standard Imperial gear? He dropped it before the final cut of course, but yet another connection.

I could go on...

[Kurgan]

To add one more thing... why do I keep bringing up the EU?

Well, Dune is the past, Star Wars is the future. I haven't read the new Dune novels, but for all I know they're using Star Wars material in there, since the two universes I see as sharing information. You even have the same authors working on both now.

The EU authors, logically, will go to the sources that Lucas uses, to help inspire them for their materials. That is why they look at stuff like Flash Gordon, and Dune, and probably all the other stuff mentioned above too.

Because if it was good enough for Lucas, it was good enough for them!

---------------------------------
Quick timeline for ya:

Dune (the novel): 1965
Dune Messiah (second Dune novel): 1969
Children of Dune (third Dune novel): 1976

Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker (novel): 1976
Star Wars (later title added "Episode IV: A New Hope"): 1977
Empire Strikes Back (movie): 1980

God Emperor of Dune (fourth Dune novel): 1981

Return of the Jedi (the movie): 1983

Dune (the first movie version): 1984
----------------------------------------------

You don't have to agree with my conclusion... maybe the EU authors have simply bought the idea that Dune was one inspiration for Lucas, and so they feel free to borrow from it as well, even if Lucas himself just happened to repeat some of the patterns mentioned in an earlier science fiction series.

[Slartibartfast]

Are you trying to say that when Lucas put the Tusken in his movies, he made a statement about how the Tusken were to be portrayed by all the EU writers? Did he make a list of guidelines of sand people religions, customs, the nature of their masks and why they hide their flesh, etc?

Or maybe he just put sand people in a movie with lots of sand and then a bunch of authors who liked Dune decided to put a lot of symbolism into them in their novels?

[Slartibartfast]

Spice exists in Star Wars, just not as a major export of Tatooine, but its there... interesting.

Maybe the spanish were inspired by Dune when they decided to find an alternate route to India, because of the Spice trade?

You aren't understanding where your leap in logic is. There's nothing wrong in noting similarities. Deducing causality IS a leap in logic.

It's like saying: my house is green - your car is green, therefore your car was inspired by my house.
= leap in logic.

Saying: they're both green is not a leap in logic, in fact it's the truth.

But I don't see that's what you're saying, you're trying to make us admit something (that Lucas borrowed something from somewhere) and not providing a convincing argument about it, but then you back off and say that's not what you're trying to do, just noting that it's interesting (interesting in a "giant international government conspiracy" sort of way )

[Slartibartfast]

And suddenly a desert planet is Arrakis?

Arrakis isn't Tatooine, but it shares some similarities, as I've pointed out.

Of course. Sand. That's about it. Oh yeah and people in it. (maybe if there wasn't people there it wouldn't be much of a movie, tho)

Seriously he took more from Arab nomads with Sand people then he did with the Fremen.

If I were using your debate tactics, I'd say you were making a leap in logic by claiming that he took the Sandpeople from Arab nomads. Do Arab nomads go "honk honk honk"? Do they ride Banthas? Do Arab nomads live on a desert planet? Do Arab nomads wear bandages and breathmask devices over their faces? Do Arab nomads use Gaffi sticks?

But no, I am not going to argue that. Rather, I'm surprised you haven't been able to see similarities between Fremen and Sandpeople, as sci fi characters. Oh well...

Nonono, you've got it all wrong. A work of fiction that borrows from another work of fiction can be considered derivative. Fortunately, a work of fiction that borrows from real-life examples (so, what doesn't?) isn't at all derivative work. Unless you think that we're characters in a novel and the writers are going to sue us.

Then you make a gigantic leap on logic here: you say that it is wrong to compare people in a book/movie with real people, then add stuff like hairstyles, alien languages, exotic weapons. Your point is that the second work borrowed from the first work (which was based on real people with added-on stuff), then removed all the added-on stuff and added its own stuff.

I mean let's see a bunch of roving nomads who live in small village that cover themselves to protect from the sun using primitive weapons and ride large herd like beasts

Sounds like Fremen to me, except that worms don't travel in herds, but the Fremen definately ride them around!

Hint: camels.

vs

a warrior clad race of people who value water as the highest thing in the universe control a beast that rules the sands, and are in search of messiah.

Other than searching for a messiah, I think that fits the Sandpeople pretty well.

Funny I didn't find Banthas all that intimidating. I also didn't see the Sandpeople worshipping water, in fact I'm pretty sure that we never see Sandpeople and water in the same scene in the entire trilogy.

Oh wait... warrior-clad race, yeah pretty unique I guess. Check.

Yes...I see the vast similarities.

Like the evil Emperor and his plotting, manipulating people against each other behind the scenes... and the powerful prescient orders, and the close relation between the good guys and the bad guys. Heck, swords are even a major weapon in Dune, they just don't light up and glow like Lucas's. Didn't Lucas's early scripts call for shields (as well as sabers) being standard Imperial gear? He dropped it before the final cut of course, but yet another connection.

Obviously that has no connection with real-life examples of people with swords and shields... go figure.

Emperor plotting? Now, what work of fiction hasn't done that to death already?

I could go on...[/quote]

To what purpose?

[Slartibartfast]

To add one more thing... why do I keep bringing up the EU?

Well, Dune is the past, Star Wars is the future. I haven't read the new Dune novels, but for all I know they're using Star Wars material in there, since the two universes I see as sharing information. You even have the same authors working on both now.

The EU authors, logically, will go to the sources that Lucas uses, to help inspire them for their materials. That is why they look at stuff like Flash Gordon, and Dune, and probably all the other stuff mentioned above too.

Because if it was good enough for Lucas, it was good enough for them!

---------------------------------
Quick timeline for ya:

Dune (the novel): 1965
Dune Messiah (second Dune novel): 1969
Children of Dune (third Dune novel): 1976

Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker (novel): 1976
Star Wars (later title added "Episode IV: A New Hope"): 1977
Empire Strikes Back (movie): 1980

God Emperor of Dune (fourth Dune novel): 1981

Return of the Jedi (the movie): 1983

Dune (the first movie version): 1984
----------------------------------------------

You don't have to agree with my conclusion... maybe the EU authors have simply bought the idea that Dune was one inspiration for Lucas, and so they feel free to borrow from it as well, even if Lucas himself just happened to repeat some of the patterns mentioned in an earlier science fiction series.

Ever better, how about this: the EU writers write what they want, ask Lucas if it contradicts canon, he says no, then it's published, and it says absolutely nothing about whether or not Lucas wanted Tatooine to be derived from Dune.

I don't see why authors have to *believe* that Lucas has borrowed from Dune before they try to borrow from it themselves. Maybe they just like Dune and want to borrow stuff, and don't give a crap about where Lucas got it from in the first place (real-life nomads, getting high and dreaming weird stuff, etc)

[Kurgan]

Whoa! Let me attempt to address your replies (clears off desk).

Okay...

Are you trying to say that when Lucas put the Tusken in his movies, he made a statement about how the Tusken were to be portrayed by all the EU writers? Did he make a list of guidelines of sand people religions, customs, the nature of their masks and why they hide their flesh, etc?

Perhaps. Or perhaps he left notes with some of his lawyers, who negotiated the deals with the EU authors to write the stuff using his characters. People have said over and over how "Lucas approves everything with the Star Wars logo on it." True or not, at least somebody from LucasFilm has to say what can pass and what can't. I've read about how certain characters and events are to be portrayed in a certain way or not to be written about. It's George's property after all and he can tell people what to do.

Now, of course, we all know that just because George gave the green light to some book, doesn't mean that a prequel movie won't steamrole over the top of it (as we've seen happen with both prequel films so far).

I'm sure, yes, George or somebody from his staff or somebody he hired DID go over the details with the person(s) who wrote "Outlander" and "Darksaber" where the Tuskens were concerned.

Maybe he gave them a lot of leeway, maybe he didn't, but it was his call, so I'm sure it is a likely scenario.

Or maybe he just put sand people in a movie with lots of sand and then a bunch of authors who liked Dune decided to put a lot of symbolism into them in their novels?

Its possible. But isn't it also possible that Dune may have colored George's own work? Why is it so hard to admit this possibility? Again, is it heresy to say that Star Wars has been inspired by other sci fi?

[Kurgan]

Of course. Sand. That's about it. Oh yeah and people in it. (maybe if there wasn't people there it wouldn't be much of a movie, tho)

Did you read my previous posts? I already mentioned some of the similarities.

Nonono, you've got it all wrong. A work of fiction that borrows from another work of fiction can be considered derivative. Fortunately, a work of fiction that borrows from real-life examples (so, what doesn't?) isn't at all derivative work. Unless you think that we're characters in a novel and the writers are going to sue us.

Your point being...?

Then you make a gigantic leap on logic here: you say that it is wrong to compare people in a book/movie with real people, then add stuff like hairstyles, alien languages, exotic weapons. Your point is that the second work borrowed from the first work (which was based on real people with added-on stuff), then removed all the added-on stuff and added its own stuff.

That was not my point at all. I never said it was wrong to borrow anything. I just pointed out that there is plenty of evidence right there of borrowing from another sci fi work (among others). The debate wasn't over whether Dune was inspired by history. It was claimed above that Dune did NOT inspire Star Wars, but both were simply inspired by history. That may be true, but it seems likely that in fact the works inspired EACH OTHER.

Funny I didn't find Banthas all that intimidating.

They're everywhere, they survive in the deep desert. They're hardy creatures for damn sure. And not only that, they're associated with Tusken Raiders.. hence, they inspire fear (in all but the foolish and naive.. like Luke).

I also didn't see the Sandpeople worshipping water, in fact I'm pretty sure that we never see Sandpeople and water in the same scene in the entire trilogy.

This is mainly from Outlander. They raid villages and massacre people to take their water. Its obviously highly prized, as it would in any desert-living community, but they put a special emphasis on it even beyond that.

Oh wait... warrior-clad race, yeah pretty unique I guess. Check.

If you view each characteristic in isolation, yes, it makes them fairly mundane, but if you add them all together, they become remarkably similar. If you just look at one similarity, it could be a coincidence, but the more you look at, the more it looks like it was inspired.

Obviously that has no connection with real-life examples of people with swords and shields... go figure.

Sci Fi is notorious for being "futuristic." And as we all know, in the future, people use ray guns and energy weapons, because they're... well.. futuristic. Star Wars breaks that mold by bringing back swords, albeit in a futuristic way (by making them "light sabers"). Dune brings back swords, but they're more like Renesainse (sp?) swords, but because shields have become so commonly used.

It's a weaker example, but its still there. In most Sci Fi, swords are of no consequence. Sure, the klingons use bladed weapons, but we all know how well that works out. ; )

Emperor plotting? Now, what work of fiction hasn't done that to death already?

Actually, the personalities of the two Emperors are very different, but again, it's just one more link in the chain. And we're not talking about all of fiction here, just SCIENCE FICTION.

To what purpose?

Gee, I dunno, the same reason we all bother to post an opinion in a public forum. Because we have one? ; )

Maybe discussion is fun for some of us, after all.

[Kurgan]

Ever better, how about this: the EU writers write what they want, ask Lucas if it contradicts canon, he says no, then it's published, and it says absolutely nothing about whether or not Lucas wanted Tatooine to be derived from Dune.

You'd have to ask the Jedi Council to get the real specifics of how it works. But I've read stuff that says its more detailed than that. I don't know if EU authors actually HAVE to try not to contradict canon or not. I know they TRY not to, because its always PAST EU materials that are contradictory (like Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Zahn's first trilogy, etc).

No effort has been made to rewrite those old books (except the SW RPG's) that contain errors, they just write NEW BOOKS that attempt to address some of the problems, if that.

Perhaps, the closer the EU guys get to canon events and characters, the less freedom they have to change things. I honestly don't know.

But if they write about Dune, either it's because they just like it, they're going to the original sources, or Lucas pointed them in that direction.

I don't see why authors have to *believe* that Lucas has borrowed from Dune before they try to borrow from it themselves.

They don't have to believe anything, so long as they do what Lucas's lawyers tell them to do if they want to write for the SW name.

But, let's imagine you're an EU author. You know that Lucas likes "the Hidden Fortress" and drew inspiration from it when he made Star Wars. So before you write your novel, you sit down and watch THF a few times, to see if you can get some more ideas. Logical?

Maybe if an EU author believed that Lucas was inspired by "King Lear" (even if he wasn't) he still might read KL a few times, in order to get some ideas for his SW book. That's why I said they might "believe" that. Because even if Lucas was NOT inspired by Dune and it was just pure coincidence (which I doubt) he's already confused enough people into thinking that he WAS inspired by it.

Hence my example about Flash Gordon, and the Classic Star Wars comics reference.

I think it's more likely that he was inspired by it, rather than he just fooled everybody into thinking he was, even people who work for him.

Maybe they just like Dune and want to borrow stuff, and don't give a crap about where Lucas got it from in the first place (real-life nomads, getting high and dreaming weird stuff, etc)

Could be. The way I see it, the original material points to Dune, and the EU material, if anything, points even MORE STRONGLY to Dune, and not just on the subject of the Sandpeople, as I've pointed out in earlier posts.

Again, it's just a possibility, but if Lucas's stuff feels like Dune, and the EU stuff does as well, why not see a connection?

[Kurgan]

I just remembered another non-film source to add to the list of sources for info on Sandpeople.... the short comic book series "Episode I Adventures" which mentions some events, though I think they're pretty well covered (with minor variation) in the screenplay/novel as well (which ARE canon).

Not having it with me, I can't really quote from it though. ; p

[Ghost Rider]

You still are using EU to back up your claim.

And while Lucas' oversees EU he by no means regultes it anything beyond "I can change it at will."...ie Boba Fett.

So either stick to canon or don't because canon shows that the Tusken Raiders have virtually no similarity to the Fremen.

[Kurgan]

Really? I think the EU only serves to enhance my claim, it is not the entire basis for it, nor is it in direct contradiction.

[Slartibartfast]

Its possible. But isn't it also possible that Dune may have colored George's own work? Why is it so hard to admit this possibility? Again, is it heresy to say that Star Wars has been inspired by other sci fi?

The problem is that it isn't anything except speculation on your behalf. I don't have to admit any possibility, because EVERYTHING is possible. The burden of proof is on you to give convincing enough arguments, instead of giving exceptionally vague examples.

Maybe they inspired each other, maybe they were inspired by the same thing. You put much more weight in the first possibility and nearly none in the second, and say lots and lots of stuff trying to explain why it's not the MORE likely one.

Did you read my previous posts? I already mentioned some of the similarities.

Yes, and they're so vague, and I said it over and over. Like that both people like water, because it's hard to get and they'd die without it. Real people do it all the time when stuck in the middle of some desert.

Nonono, you've got it all wrong. A work of fiction that borrows from another work of fiction can be considered derivative. Fortunately, a work of fiction that borrows from real-life examples (so, what doesn't?) isn't at all derivative work. Unless you think that we're characters in a novel and the writers are going to sue us.

Your point being...?

That you say that if copying a book is derivative work, then copying real life is also derivative work.

That was not my point at all. I never said it was wrong to borrow anything. I just pointed out that there is plenty of evidence right there of borrowing from another sci fi work (among others). The debate wasn't over whether Dune was inspired by history. It was claimed above that Dune did NOT inspire Star Wars, but both were simply inspired by history. That may be true, but it seems likely that in fact the works inspired EACH OTHER.

You misunderstand. If you read the major part of the paragraph (the part without 'wrong' in it) you'll see that you find it more likely that one author takes a real-life example, adds a lot of stuff, and then another one copies it, except that it removes the extra stuff (thus leaving only the original real-life example) and adds his own stuff - than simply recognizing that neither of them invented the wheel.

They're everywhere, they survive in the deep desert. They're hardy creatures for damn sure. And not only that, they're associated with Tusken Raiders.. hence, they inspire fear (in all but the foolish and naive.. like Luke).

In the movie there are very few banthas.

This is mainly from Outlander. They raid villages and massacre people to take their water. Its obviously highly prized, as it would in any desert-living community, but they put a special emphasis on it even beyond that.

Ok two things:
* there's nothing odd about people who can't invent their own water to pillage for water. Bandits pillage for anything they can't get by other means. Food, women, whatever.
* whatever book it was, I assume it's EU. You don't seem to understand that having some say in what gets published or not DOESN'T MEAN that Lucas writes this stuff and then mails it for other authors to publish. It's ludicrous to assume that.

If you view each characteristic in isolation, yes, it makes them fairly mundane, but if you add them all together, they become remarkably similar. If you just look at one similarity, it could be a coincidence, but the more you look at, the more it looks like it was inspired.

Except that real-life examples already have most of your 'unique characteristics' in them, all at once. Don't nitpick on each of my arguments separately and out of context. I just put the "warriors" part in the same pot with all the other "want water", "protect from elements", "develop kinky feelings for their animals". Not to mention that most of these are in the EU which isn't George's work.

Sci Fi is notorious for being "futuristic." And as we all know, in the future, people use ray guns and energy weapons, because they're... well.. futuristic. Star Wars breaks that mold by bringing back swords, albeit in a futuristic way (by making them "light sabers"). Dune brings back swords, but they're more like Renesainse (sp?) swords, but because shields have become so commonly used.

It's a weaker example, but its still there. In most Sci Fi, swords are of no consequence. Sure, the klingons use bladed weapons, but we all know how well that works out. ; )

It's more common in Sci-Fi to bring back archaic stuff (even in a futuristic way) than you seem to realize. Honestly, Dune's approach is more conservative (people still use combat knifes even when they pack heavy machineguns and other kinds of armament, and there are lots of knife-fighting duels even now). It's a bit like saying that when weaponry gets advanced enough people will stop throwing punches. Star Wars is much more blatantly "medieval swords and sorcery/swashbucklers" than Dune.

Actually, the personalities of the two Emperors are very different, but again, it's just one more link in the chain. And we're not talking about all of fiction here, just SCIENCE FICTION.

Science Fiction, being a branch of regular Fiction, is allowed and even encouraged to borrow from all kinds of Fiction archetypes.

Somehow you are managing to build a 100 km long chain with all those links you got from some evil race we see during 15 seconds in a movie!

You'd have to ask the Jedi Council to get the real specifics of how it works. But I've read stuff that says its more detailed than that. I don't know if EU authors actually HAVE to try not to contradict canon or not. I know they TRY not to, because its always PAST EU materials that are contradictory (like Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Zahn's first trilogy, etc).

No effort has been made to rewrite those old books (except the SW RPG's) that contain errors, they just write NEW BOOKS that attempt to address some of the problems, if that.

Perhaps, the closer the EU guys get to canon events and characters, the less freedom they have to change things. I honestly don't know.

But if they write about Dune, either it's because they just like it, they're going to the original sources, or Lucas pointed them in that direction.

You really really seem to think that EU guidelines are pretty much George Lucas writing all of the novels in advance and then sending it to authors for them to put their name on them and then publish it.

I don't see why authors have to *believe* that Lucas has borrowed from Dune before they try to borrow from it themselves.

They don't have to believe anything, so long as they do what Lucas's lawyers tell them to do if they want to write for the SW name.

It sounds like you think that the lawyers thought of every single word/idea in each novel and then told the author to write it, instead of the author thinking up an idea and then asking the lawyers/Lucas if it's okay.

But, let's imagine you're an EU author. You know that Lucas likes "the Hidden Fortress" and drew inspiration from it when he made Star Wars. So before you write your novel, you sit down and watch THF a few times, to see if you can get some more ideas. Logical?

Let's imagine that you're an EU author. You write a book based on Boba Fett, and start getting inspiration of all Clint Eastwood movies for things for Boba to say and do. Then Lucas says it's not out of character or anything, and you publish it. Then I read your book, and begin telling everyone how Lucas borrowed his idea of Boba Fett from Clint Eastwood.

Maybe if an EU author believed that Lucas was inspired by "King Lear" (even if he wasn't) he still might read KL a few times, in order to get some ideas for his SW book. That's why I said they might "believe" that. Because even if Lucas was NOT inspired by Dune and it was just pure coincidence (which I doubt) he's already confused enough people into thinking that he WAS inspired by it.

In your example, the Author doesn't even NEED to think that Lucas was inspired or not by King Lear! The author might just think that there are a few nifty things in King Lear that he can draw inspiration from, and then put them in his novel! Then you'll go to Lucas and start complaining that he drew inspiration from King Lear!

Hence my example about Flash Gordon, and the Classic Star Wars comics reference.

I think it's more likely that he was inspired by it, rather than he just fooled everybody into thinking he was, even people who work for him.

That, or you draw too many conclusions.

Could be. The way I see it, the original material points to Dune, and the EU material, if anything, points even MORE STRONGLY to Dune, and not just on the subject of the Sandpeople, as I've pointed out in earlier posts.

You make this big leap in logic because in RETROSPECTIVE you can say that everything may strengthen/weaken any argument you want, that this was inspired by that or that F.H. is a Nazi or whatever... You fail to realize that these authors are ADDING to Lucas' stuff, they're making their own decisions and borrowing from anything they want, as long as it doesn't CONTRADICT canon. You believe that contradicting Canon is so easy that it is a requisite to follow a rigid set of exact guidelines to write your stuff (to the point that most of it is pre-written). The easiest way to avoid polluting Canon is to write stuff that won't have any the slightest influence in Canon stories, like making an adventure about Chewie tring to have a zit removed!

Again, it's just a possibility, but if Lucas's stuff feels like Dune, and the EU stuff does as well, why not see a connection?

[Slartibartfast]

Really? I think the EU only serves to enhance my claim, it is not the entire basis for it, nor is it in direct contradiction.

As I said, it's easy to judge stuff on RETROSPECTIVE.