How Did the Rebels Perform at Hoth?

[Noble Ire]

Snowspeeders were modified utility airspeeders. Putting them into battle against TIEs would be like sending the family Suburban (if you could make it fly and arm it) to fight against an F-15. It's just not meant for the job.

Not necessarily. After all, as has been said, Ties are not really designed for atmospheric combat, and thus their performance is reduced. Cut down on their manuverability and speed, and Snowspeeders might be a match.

[PainRack]

Is there a factor for terrible Imperial Incompetence?

The Empire focus was on stopping the evacuation via an blockade and capturing the Rebels means of escape. Yet, they focused so badly on the docking bay, that they TOTALLY missed the secondary, EXPOSED landing field out in the open, which was where Luke Skywalker and a number of transports escaped from.

[Noble Ire]

The Empire focus was on stopping the evacuation via an blockade and capturing the Rebels means of escape. Yet, they focused so badly on the docking bay, that they TOTALLY missed the secondary, EXPOSED landing field out in the open, which was where Luke Skywalker and a number of transports escaped from.

IIRC, those areas were fairly far removed from the main line of Imperial advance, which, due to the surrounding mountains, was the only path through which Veers could move his heavy weaponry. Since they didn't have air support inside the theater shield, it wasn't so much incompetence as it was an inevitability. Also, all of the Gallofree transports were stored underground in Echo base, and only moved out just before departure (presumably, the ones pausing on the field were picking up stragling ground troops.)

[PainRack]

IIRC, those areas were fairly far removed from the main line of Imperial advance, which, due to the surrounding mountains, was the only path through which Veers could move his heavy weaponry. Since they didn't have air support inside the theater shield, it wasn't so much incompetence as it was an inevitability. Also, all of the Gallofree transports were stored underground in Echo base, and only moved out just before departure (presumably, the ones pausing on the field were picking up stragling ground troops.)

Yet, not only was there orbital support available to scan the base, we know the Empire sent in probe droids to provide tactical recon alongside the AT-STs that were supporting the AT-AT flank.

There were no reasons why the Empire couldn't have noticed those bases and diverted a single walker to smash it, ESPECIALLY after Vader landed his troops directly on the base itself. Such a noticable secondary site should have been obvious from the air, and a transport diverted to hit it, alternatively, it should have been relatively easy to secure the area after the infantry had begun the attack on the base via the use of walkers.

[Noble Ire]

Yet, not only was there orbital support available to scan the base, we know the Empire sent in probe droids to provide tactical recon alongside the AT-STs that were supporting the AT-AT flank.

There were no reasons why the Empire couldn't have noticed those bases and diverted a single walker to smash it, ESPECIALLY after Vader landed his troops directly on the base itself. Such a noticable secondary site should have been obvious from the air, and a transport diverted to hit it, alternatively, it should have been relatively easy to secure the area after the infantry had begun the attack on the base via the use of walkers.

How would you propose an AT-ST or AT-AT scale a sheer mountain face? Or traverse a mountain range? The corridor that Veers took was the only one he could effectively use. And what does it matter if the Fleet was able to scan the base, or had probots on the ground? If they couldn't get to the take off point, it doesn't matter if they can map it out.

[Sidewinder]

Perhaps it's simply because the Rebels never got around to adapting the X-Wings for Hoth's low temperatures. Yes, I know that they were able to fly, but going straight from the surface to orbit is quite different from staying in the atmosphere for extended combat.

X-wings have no problem flying in the vacuum of space, which, to my knowledge, is much colder than any natural environment present on a planet, even Hoth's. I think Ghost Rider's claim-- that the Rebels thought the fighters would be wasted if used in a holding action-- makes more sense.

[Sidewinder]

Ties are not really designed for atmospheric combat, and thus their performance is reduced. Cut down on their manuverability and speed, and Snowspeeders might be a match.

TIEs are capable of escaping a a planet's atmosphere and gravity well. The speed necessary to do so must be above what the snowspeeders are capable of-- otherwise, we'd see snowspeeders dogfighting in space! Even if the TIEs' maneauverability is cut down by being in an atmosphere, they can still triumph using the tactics USAAF and USN pilots used to defeat the more maneauverable Zeros in WW2: use their greater speed to engage the enemy only when they have an advantage, and to disengage-- escape-- when they don't have an advantage.

[Sidewinder]

It's been a while since I saw 'The Empire Strikes Back', but the fact is that the Rebels had escape as their priority, instead of killing as many Imperials as they can-- the suicidal mindset of Imperial Japanese soldiers tend to do in WW2. Overall, I commend them for having their priorities straight.

[Noble Ire]

TIEs are capable of escaping a a planet's atmosphere and gravity well. The speed necessary to do so must be above what the snowspeeders are capable of-- otherwise, we'd see snowspeeders dogfighting in space! Even if the TIEs' maneauverability is cut down by being in an atmosphere, they can still triumph using the tactics USAAF and USN pilots used to defeat the more maneauverable Zeros in WW2: use their greater speed to engage the enemy only when they have an advantage, and to disengage-- escape-- when they don't have an advantage.

Of course, there is the issue of being inside of the theater shield. Even with superior speed, I would imagine Ties wouldn't be able to risk moving too quickly for fear of being unable to prevent a collision with the energy field (especially considering their manuverability losses.)

[Lord Sabre Ace]

Of course, there is the issue of being inside of the theater shield. Even with superior speed, I would imagine Ties wouldn't be able to risk moving too quickly for fear of being unable to prevent a collision with the energy field (especially considering their manuverability losses.)

As far as I know, there isn't any movie evidence of loss of maneuverability in an atmosphere. The only source of that claim is the X-Wing Series, which everyone knows is just a bunch of NR propaganda.

[Noble Ire]

As far as I know, there isn't any movie evidence of loss of maneuverability in an atmosphere. The only source of that claim is the X-Wing Series, which everyone knows is just a bunch of NR propaganda.

So, it is canon nontheless (unless a more credible or recent sources overrules it, as you could say happened with the ISD take downs)? Really, the only time in the movies when you see Ties in an atmosphere is for about four seconds on Bespin. Not much to go on.

[Darth Fanboy]

TIE Fighters function in atmosphere fine in the Aaron Allston book "Wraith Squadron", I think they perform fine in Atmosphere thorughout the Wraith Squadron series.

[Aquatain]

Even if the empire could use a ground vehicle to transport some tie's though the shield ..would't the shields ceiling severly hamper the tie's movement and would't that also be the case with the x/y-wings?

[Gandalf]

Even if the empire could use a ground vehicle to transport some tie's though the shield ..would't the shields ceiling severly hamper the tie's movement and would't that also be the case with the x/y-wings?

I think that really depends on how high the shield is.

If a few kilometres off the ground, it may not be too much of an issue.

I would think Imperial pilots would be trained in low atmospheric combat.

[phongn]

X-wings have no problem flying in the vacuum of space, which, to my knowledge, is much colder than any natural environment present on a planet, even Hoth's. I think Ghost Rider's claim-- that the Rebels thought the fighters would be wasted if used in a holding action-- makes more sense.

Space can be cold, yes, but it is also a vacuum so the only way you're getting rid of waste heat is through radiation. In atmosphere you can dump heat directly into the air through convection. You also have to deal with ice and other problems, which are not unsolvable but apparently not trivial to fix, either. That said, GR's claim makes more sense.

TIEs are capable of escaping a a planet's atmosphere and gravity well. The speed necessary to do so must be above what the snowspeeders are capable of-- otherwise, we'd see snowspeeders dogfighting in space!

Snowspeeders may have air-breathing engines so that they cannot operate in space, even with their antigravity systems.

[Jaevric]

TIE Fighters function in atmosphere fine in the Aaron Allston book "Wraith Squadron", I think they perform fine in Atmosphere thorughout the Wraith Squadron series.

Logically, looking at TIE fighter designs, those big wing panels are going to be an aerodynamic issue in the atmosphere, creating drag when the fighter attempts to sideslip, and catching sidewinds (which admittedly may not be a major issue for TIE fighters). Not to mention that while an X-Wing or E-Wing (not that these were at the Battle of Hoth) might be able to glide in the atmosphere after taking damage, TIEs and Y-Wings have all the aerodynamics of a brick.

Unless the Wraith Squadron novels come out and say "TIE fighters suffer no loss of manueverability in the atmosphere" or something to that effect, I'd be inclined to accept the Rogue Squadron novel claim that TIEs, particularly standard TIE Fighters, but to a lesser extent Bombers and Interceptors, have issues with certain atmospheric manuevers. It's logical, and it's supported by novel canon.

As for the snowspeeders, while they were modified civilian craft, we have a number of examples in the Star Wars universe of heavily modified civilian vehicles being able to hang in a fight, at least in the short term, against military-grade hardware; the Mon Calamari Cruisers (able to at least slow down, if not defeat, an ISD), the Millenium Falcon, and Mara Jade's various modified shuttles. Given this, it isn't entirely unreasonable to assume that Snowspeeders could be modified into combat-effective craft that could hold their own against TIE fighters in a very specific situation where the TIEs were at a disadvantage anyway due to the conditions they were in.

Apparently, Star Wars technology is such that it is feasible, if perhaps time-consuming and resource-intensive, to mount sufficient technology in a civilian vessel to give a dedicated military craft a run for its money. Whether Echo Base on Hoth had the resources and time to do this to a squadron of Snowspeeders is, perhaps, more questionable. On the other hand, some fairly extensive modifications were apparently made to the Snowspeeders; I can't imagine the "tow cable gun" is a standard device on such vehicles, since it seems to have limited utility outside of tripping up AT-ATs.

[Edit]
I think the point is, nobody is questioning whether or not the Empire *could* have gotten TIE fighters under the theater shield and used them against Echo Base--rather, the debate is over whether or not doing so would have been an efficient allocation of the Empire's resources.

It has pretty well been demonstrated that special means would have to be used to get the TIE fighters beneath the theater shield--a ground(ed) vehicle would have to transport them across the shield's edge. I don't know if the Empire has such a vehicle in its inventory that is designed to carry TIE fighters, and we don't know that even if such a design exists, there was one present in Death Squadron--Vader may not have expected the Rebels to have access to a powerful theater shielding system!

Now, if a squadron or two of TIE Bombers could have gotten down to where the transports were landed out in the open and made a bombing run or two against THOSE, that would have been a different story...
[/Edit]

[Darth Yoshi]

A tow cable would be used to drag cargo for rapid deployment. It saves on loading/unloading time, since all you have to do is attach the cable to the package.

Or, you can use it to drag bombs when there aren't any Y-wings available.

[Jaevric]

A tow cable GUN, with the length of cord the one on the speeders had, for a vehicle designed for atmospheric flight?

Those things weren't "hover a meter off the ground" landspeeders, those were dedicated aircraft, or so it seemed to me. It's like...attaching a tow cable to a, not a Cessna, but some super-high-performance civilian aircraft. Whatever "cargo" you were holding would either be hanging off the back of the snowspeeder looking to get tangled/smashed against something, or would need repulsorlifts to keep it at the same altitude as the snowspeeder--and would then be swinging around wildly in the snowspeeder's wake the entire trip. Sorry, not seeing a real use for that as a civilian application, unless it's the SW universe equivalent of wakeboarding--and even then I'm not sure about shooting that big clamp at a fairly high velocity at someone unless you really, really dislike them.

[Darth Yoshi]

Who said anything about clamping cargo at full speed? I mean like how tow trucks work. You stop, hook up whatever you're dragging, and go. As opposed to stopping, opening up a cargo bay, loading the cargo, closing the cargo bay, then going.

At sufficient speed, you wouldn't have to worry about the cargo getting tangled; it'll be dragged behind you by sheer momentum. The only problem is when you slow down, but that might be when the cable gets retracted. That's what I think, at any rate. I don't claim to know nearly enough about aerodynamics to be sure.

Besides, the concept isn't that farfetched. If the History Channel is to be believed, the Japanese Empire had designed a set of wings to attach to tanks so that they could be pulled by a tow cable and then dropped directly into a forward deployed area.

[PainRack]

How would you propose an AT-ST or AT-AT scale a sheer mountain face? Or traverse a mountain range? The corridor that Veers took was the only one he could effectively use. And what does it matter if the Fleet was able to scan the base, or had probots on the ground? If they couldn't get to the take off point, it doesn't matter if they can map it out.

Ahem.

Vader DROPPED his troops onto the base from orbit. Remember General Veers telling him the shields are down and that he can drop the second wave any time now?

Are you telling me that an airmobile army couldn't get to the secondary landing site? Especially when above said site is used as an air corridor in the first place?

[PainRack]

X-wings have no problem flying in the vacuum of space, which, to my knowledge, is much colder than any natural environment present on a planet, even Hoth's. I think Ghost Rider's claim-- that the Rebels thought the fighters would be wasted if used in a holding action-- makes more sense.

The problem ISN"T the cold. The problem is the atmosphere.

Even if we factor in Saxton belief that shields help redirect airflow to improve aerodynamics, there isn't any reason to believe that the relatively heavier density of air, as well as the possibility of air freezing in critical systems would not damage the X-wing. Remember the Apache and an enemy called moisture?

The fighters may have been wasted in a holding action, however, just because it was wasted doesn't mean that it was possible for them to carry out an extended interdiction campaign anyway.

[Darth Fanboy]

Logically, looking at TIE fighter designs, those big wing panels are going to be an aerodynamic issue in the atmosphere, creating drag when the fighter attempts to sideslip, and catching sidewinds (which admittedly may not be a major issue for TIE fighters). Not to mention that while an X-Wing or E-Wing (not that these were at the Battle of Hoth) might be able to glide in the atmosphere after taking damage, TIEs and Y-Wings have all the aerodynamics of a brick.

ALso, a quote from Lucasarts for the game FOrce Commander notes:

"TIE Craft

The Imperial Military takes a lot of pride in its small, one-man fighter crafts. The TIE Fighter is a marvel of engineering, combining speed, maneuverability, and raw power in one compact package. They rely on their incredible agility to avoid damage. TIE Fighters are capable of battle both in space and in an atmosphere, making them versatile as well as dependable and powerful."

TIEs are said to be at least as functional as a z-95 headhunter in atmosphere.

Unless the Wraith Squadron novels come out and say "TIE fighters suffer no loss of manueverability in the atmosphere" or something to that effect, I'd be inclined to accept the Rogue Squadron novel claim that TIEs, particularly standard TIE Fighters, but to a lesser extent Bombers and Interceptors, have issues with certain atmospheric manuevers. It's logical, and it's supported by novel canon.

Any starfighter has issues with atmospheric manuevers, i'm not debating that. But I thought it was implied that TIEs couldn't function in an atmosphere, let alone fight the Snowspeeders.

Snip

I'm sorry but if you expect me to believe that one could field a military largely out of refitted civilian vehicles I am going to have to call bullshit. I know of the Mon Cal starship conversions and the snowspeeders are the two prime examples one could use, but if that was the case then why wasn't the Rebellion fielding large numbers of these refitted ships? And if such was the case then why did the Mon Cals eventually go to building fully fledged military craft after Endor and why don't we see snowspeeders in use much after ESB? Probably because they want actual military equipment.

I think the point is, nobody is questioning whether or not the Empire *could* have gotten TIE fighters under the theater shield and used them against Echo Base--rather, the debate is over whether or not doing so would have been an efficient allocation of the Empire's resources.

Combine that with what you say later in your post about TIE bombers and it should be an obvious answer. I don't think it would be difficult and resource prohibitive to get fighters on the ground and send them through on a walker or treaded vehicle.

It has pretty well been demonstrated that special means would have to be used to get the TIE fighters beneath the theater shield--a ground(ed) vehicle would have to transport them across the shield's edge. I don't know if the Empire has such a vehicle in its inventory that is designed to carry TIE fighters, and we don't know that even if such a design exists, there was one present in Death Squadron--Vader may not have expected the Rebels to have access to a powerful theater shielding system!

I'd like to take a moment real quick just to mention that Ozzel saw the scans of Hoth and told Vader that it could be smugglers or pirates, suggesting that such powerful shield technology is indeed availiable.

As for whether or not the Empire has a vehicle avaliable, that is a question I cannot answer except that what they have for military engineers should be able to improvise something suitable.

[PainRack]

Logically, looking at TIE fighter designs, those big wing panels are going to be an aerodynamic issue in the atmosphere, creating drag when the fighter attempts to sideslip, and catching sidewinds (which admittedly may not be a major issue for TIE fighters). Not to mention that while an X-Wing or E-Wing (not that these were at the Battle of Hoth) might be able to glide in the atmosphere after taking damage, TIEs and Y-Wings have all the aerodynamics of a brick.

Logically, the X-wing S foils are going to create turbulence during flight so its going to be an extremely bumpy ride for any X-wing pilot in the atmosphere.

Saxton idea of aerodynamic shields can and should be similarly extended to the TIE fighters.

Unless the Wraith Squadron novels come out and say "TIE fighters suffer no loss of manueverability in the atmosphere" or something to that effect, I'd be inclined to accept the Rogue Squadron novel claim that TIEs, particularly standard TIE Fighters, but to a lesser extent Bombers and Interceptors, have issues with certain atmospheric manuevers. It's logical, and it's supported by novel canon.

Unfortunately, its not. The novel canon during the battle of Coruscant states that the TIE fighter broke it wing during a violent turn. However, it ignored the fact that TIE fighters would routinely undergo more stress during re-entry, or even during a high speed chase and turn as seen in TESB than that described. TIE fighters should be capable of undergoing the same near superluminal speeds achieved by X-wings, and similarly conduct the same maneveurs they do at such speeds in space.

The only way to hold all these together is to assume that Issard were using older TIE frames which were past their use date and suffered too heavily from metal fatigue and poor maintenance due to lack of resources.

[Jaevric]

I wasn't saying you could field an entire effective military out of civilian vessels. I was saying that, under specific circumstances, it was possible to extensively refit SW civilian vessels to the point they could be effective against military craft. I seem to recall writing that the Mon Cal Cruisers could at least slow down an ISD--not slug it out with an ISD toe-to-toe with any reasonable chance of killing the ISD. Nor did I ever state that the MF or one of Jade's modified shuttles could take on a capital ship, or shred entire squadrons of starfighters--they can merely make the starfighters work for it.

I further suggested that it was possible that the *relatively aerodynamic* Snowspeeder could, in atmosphere, hold its own against the *extremely unaerodynamic* TIE fighter, in an environment where the TIE fighter was at other disadvantages--like having to worry about smacking into a theater shield, and having to deal with yaw problems as a result of the big-ass solar panel wings!

I'm also going to point out that I never said the TIE fighter was incapable of atmospheric combat, I suggested--as did the Rogue Squadron novels--that the TIE fighter is operating at a reduced capability in the atmosphere.

Though I didn't mention it, other people have made the implication that the TIE fighters, due to the nature of heat conduction, would have difficulties functioning in Hoth's atmosphere. The extreme cold combined with air movement would cause the TIE fighter greater problems than would be experienced even in the vacuum of space.

It's been a while since I saw ESB--did the probe droid send up images of the shield generator, or readings of the shield's power output? The shield, as I recall, wasn't turned on until the Imperial fleet dropped out of hyperspace and showed up on the Rebel sensors, hence Vader's anger at losing the advantage of surprise.

Last, but not least, how much warning did the Imperials have that they were going to hit Echo Base? Between preparing for a planetary assault, briefing the troops, and the various other tasks involved in any military operation, would the Imperial engineers have time to also modify an existing vehicle with TIE launch racks? And if they did have time to do so, did they have nothing ELSE that was considered more important to do--like prepping the ground vehicles? It's not like the Imperials necessarily knew before arriving in orbit over the planet that there was a secondary launch site that TIE bombers would have been able to hit effectively, either! We know that hyperspace travel times are SHORT.

As I recall, and once again, it's been a while since I saw ESB, Han rescued Luke, fairly soon after that the base's sensors picked up the probe droid's activities, Han went out to take a look, blew up the probe droid which fired off a message to Death Squadron, Han warns the base that it was a probe droid and the Empire might know their location, and Vader gives the order to assault Echo Base upon receipt of the Probe Droid's transmission. Was the order to abandon the base given before or after the Imperial squadron arrived in-system? If before, then it's VERY obvious that the Imperial assault arrived within a day, if not within hours, of the probe droid's transmission. Given hyperspace travel times, even if the order was given after Vader arrived, it's very likely we're looking at a brief period of time between when the probe droid's transmission was received by Death Squadron and when Death Squadron arrived to begin the planetary assault.

I'm certain that, given a few days, Imperial technicians could modify a number of vehicles that would be capable of transporting TIE fighters through a planetary shield; I'm also fairly certain that the technicians on board Death Squadron had other duties to perform prior to a planetary assault, and that they didn't have "a few days" to design and implement such a series of modifications to their ground vehicles.

[The Original Nex]

How would you propose an AT-ST or AT-AT scale a sheer mountain face? Or traverse a mountain range? The corridor that Veers took was the only one he could effectively use. And what does it matter if the Fleet was able to scan the base, or had probots on the ground? If they couldn't get to the take off point, it doesn't matter if they can map it out.

Ahem.

Vader DROPPED his troops onto the base from orbit. Remember General Veers telling him the shields are down and that he can drop the second wave any time now?

Are you telling me that an airmobile army couldn't get to the secondary landing site? Especially when above said site is used as an air corridor in the first place?

What second wave? Vader and his personal squad of troops landed directly at the base, and it's well known that Vader's main priority (however misplaced) was the capture of Skywalker, and (if nothing else) at least the Millennium Falcon, where are you getting this idea of a second wave of Imperial soldiers from?