Bulets able to kill jedi?

[Ritterin Sophia]

I think what he's saying is blasters and slugthrowers are equally effective against Jedi, but without a means to deflect the former, blasters were more dangerous until lightsabers could be produced.

[Ender]

On the original question, I wonder what the relative amount of momentum carried by a blaster bolt is compared to a bullet.

Blaster bolt momentum doesn't look very high; we certainly don't see a lightsabre blade move as if it were involved in a collision when it reflects a blaster bolt.

Au contraire, Jango Fett made several carefully placed shots to effectively "push" a Jedi's lightsaber out of the way before placing a couple shots center mass killing him at the battle of Geonosis in Attack of the Clones.

Depending on the physics involved, a slug-thrower with a decent rate of fire might be a more effective weapon against a Jedi than a blaster with a similar fire rate.

As we've seen, blaster fire varies in terms of power and there's no reason to assume that doesn't apply to its "momentum" as well. Jango's pistol blaster fire had demonstrably more punch than say the 501st clonetroopers that attacked the Jedi Temple, who used a lighter but more rapid style of blaster fire.

This is of course, assuming that the guy standing next to him capable of telekinesis wasn't playing. And given that Jango's stance is incredibly poor for shooting while said Jedi's position would have made it easier to hold onto the lightsabre, I'd say that is more likely.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

This is of course, assuming that the guy standing next to him capable of telekinesis wasn't playing. And given that Jango's stance is incredibly poor for shooting while said Jedi's position would have made it easier to hold onto the lightsabre, I'd say that is more likely.

Well, though that is a distinct possibility, I wouldn't completely discount Jango's skill at shooting. Even if his stance was incredibly poor, he is supposedly one of the best bounty hunters who has had his fair share of Jedi encounters. Regardless, that scene still demonstrated that blaster fire can carry a significant level of force.

[Batman]

Assuming Dooku was assisting Jango as opposed to messing with the Jedi.

[FOG3]

So the obvious question then is how many:
MG-42 armed Kerberos (Jin-Roh)
MP-5 armed SWAT
or otherwise would it take to put down a Jedi of reasonable power and skill?

[Kurgan]

In fact, I propose that the traditional popularity of the lightsaber as a Jedi weapon stems from the fact that as blasters came into widespread use, the Jedi found themselves unable to telekinetically deflect blaster fire. Upon discovering this, the Jedi discovered that they were able use a lightsaber's powerful, albeit physically narrow, ray shield-like abilities, overcoming the fact its narrowness through application of precognition and superhuman precision, to protect themselves from blaster fire.
....

Essentially, people are going about it backwards; Jedi deflect blaster fire with lightsabers because they can't block it with telekinesis, the way they can against other projectiles.

How does that jibe with the fact that Anakin, a former Jedi, seems to have no trouble blocking blaster shots without a saber, in ESB?

Also, what about personal shields? (Even the supposedly "Primitive" Gungan shields can stop blasters, and no direct danger to the user apparently).

I'm glad people aren't using the "Clone Wars" anime to argue this, otherwise we'd be in serious trouble. It seems when the evidence is contradictory, people will throw in the "Dark Side force dampening effect" thing, or cite extenuating circumstances. Is it possible we've simply NEVER seen Jedi at their prime, despite Lucas's stated intention that that's what we'd be seeing in the Prequels? (or he changed his mind after Episode I)

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well, two abilities are based off of it in the Star Wars RPG, Block (the Deflect (Defense) Ability without a lightsber, requires some minor form of protection such as a glove or gauntlet), and the Dissipate Energy Force Feat (Which can heal you). Since Vader didn't seem to become healthier I'd assume Block. Further adding to that is the fact that we never see any Jedi just disipate a blaster bolt with their hand, as well as the fact that not many Jedi wore gloves.

[Havok]

Well, two abilities are based off of it in the Star Wars RPG, Block (the Deflect (Defense) Ability without a lightsber, requires some minor form of protection such as a glove or gauntlet), and the Dissipate Energy Force Feat (Which can heal you). Since Vader didn't seem to become healthier I'd assume Block. Further adding to that is the fact that we never see any Jedi just disipate a blaster bolt with their hand, as well as the fact that not many Jedi wore gloves.

How do you know Vader didn't get healthier? As for blocking blaster bolts... How does the power output of a blaster bolt compare to the power output of sustained Force Lightning. Are they comporable? If so, than we did see a Jedi deflect and absorb something as powerfull as a blaster bolt when Yoda did it. Of course not very many Jedi are as powerfull as Yoda except maybe Anakin, but a single blaster bolt would seem do able for some of the upper echelon Jedi.

[Bladed_Crescent]

How does that jibe with the fact that Anakin, a former Jedi, seems to have no trouble blocking blaster shots without a saber, in ESB?

Well, two abilities are based off of it in the Star Wars RPG, Block (the Deflect (Defense) Ability without a lightsber, requires some minor form of protection such as a glove or gauntlet), and the Dissipate Energy Force Feat (Which can heal you). Since Vader didn't seem to become healthier I'd assume Block.

In I, Jedi, Luke said that Vader absorbed the energy from the blaster shot and used the energy to power his telekinesis in that instance. (Not that he was there, but he mentioned that Vader was capable of it.) It was made out to be an extremely rare Jedi trait. And even then I'd imagine it wouldn't help a Force-user against a heavy amount of blaster fire.

[Ritterin Sophia]

As for blocking blaster bolts... How does the power output of a blaster bolt compare to the power output of sustained Force Lightning. Are they comporable? If so, than we did see a Jedi deflect and absorb something as powerfull as a blaster bolt when Yoda did it. Of course not very many Jedi are as powerfull as Yoda except maybe Anakin, but a single blaster bolt would seem do able for some of the upper echelon Jedi.

Yes, Force Lightning and Blaster weapons are comparable, standard blaster rifles, blaster carbines, and heavy blasters do the same damage as a burst of Force Lightning (3d8). What makes Force Lightning more dangerous is that it normally relies entirely of your reflex save and can hit anything up to 10 meters away and 6 meters apart.

[Kurgan]

Game mechanics?

Anyway, the only visible canonical demonstration of Force Lightning we have against a non-Jedi/Sith surface is when Dooku blocks Yoda's lightning in AOTC and it flashes into that "fiery explosion" on the stone (plastone? permaterracotta?) roof.

Beyond that we have Jedi getting hit with lightning and their hair doesn't catch on fire, nor do their clothes get visibily damaged (though they kick off some dry ice style steam sometimes). Vader looked a little dusty after Palpatine zapped him iirc. But one MIGHT chalk that up to some kind of Jedi force protection or superconductive clothing.

Palpy's "face deformation" nonewithstanding of course... (he's the only one to ever have that reaction to force lightning)

[Ritterin Sophia]

Game mechanics?

They asked about game mechanics, I answered.

[Darth Fanboy]

She was attacked by what, a dozen assassin droid at once? Even the most powerful Jedi Masters could eventually be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. With enough volume, I would imagine projectiles could easily get through a "Force Wall".

After rereading the book. It was not very many. Of the 18 Battledroids Ventress had with her only five or so were left to take on Jai MAruk and Maks Leem. She was probably overwhelmed by only two or three droids. Although they are droids and not your average soldier/bounty hunter/merc.

[Kurgan]

Game mechanics?

They asked about game mechanics, I answered.

My apologies.

[Noble Ire]

She was attacked by what, a dozen assassin droid at once? Even the most powerful Jedi Masters could eventually be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. With enough volume, I would imagine projectiles could easily get through a "Force Wall".

After rereading the book. It was not very many. Of the 18 Battledroids Ventress had with her only five or so were left to take on Jai MAruk and Maks Leem. She was probably overwhelmed by only two or three droids. Although they are droids and not your average soldier/bounty hunter/merc.

You also have to consider the fact that not every Jedi, not even all of the Masters, were particularly good at combat (and even those that were generally lagged far behind figures like Obi-Wan). I don't recall the book mentioning Leem's abilities, but its a fairly good bet that she simply wasn't that proficent in combat, at least not against foes who weren't wielding lightsabers or blasters.

[Loner]

Somewhat related to this topic, but if it's off-topic let me know. Anyway, when I was watching the Attack of the Clones last night on FOX(High-Def broadcast for the win), I was wondering if during the duel between Anakin and Dooku, would it have been possible for Anakin to have pulled out a blaster or a handgun when they were very close and unloaded into Dooku's gut at point blank?

[Elheru Aran]

Somewhat related to this topic, but if it's off-topic let me know. Anyway, when I was watching the Attack of the Clones last night on FOX(High-Def broadcast for the win), I was wondering if during the duel between Anakin and Dooku, would it have been possible for Anakin to have pulled out a blaster or a handgun when they were very close and unloaded into Dooku's gut at point blank?

Possible... except he'd have been distracted by the move and Dooku would've taken advantage of the situation. Anakin was amateurish enough that Dooku was basically just fucking around with him until he got tired and lopped off Skywalker's arm. Obi-wan was a little more difficult, but Yoda was the real challenge.

Could Anakin perhaps have pulled off the move? Sure... if he'd had a blaster on him then, and had been skilled enough to hold Dooku's attention without drawing said attention to the motion of his hand to grab the blaster, which incidentally would've set off the Count's precog...

End result of this move, most probably: Kentucky-Fried Anakin.

[Darth Fanboy]

You also have to consider the fact that not every Jedi, not even all of the Masters, were particularly good at combat (and even those that were generally lagged far behind figures like Obi-Wan). I don't recall the book mentioning Leem's abilities, but its a fairly good bet that she simply wasn't that proficent in combat, at least not against foes who weren't wielding lightsabers or blasters.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. But it seems easier to assume from the passage that the flechette weapons were just very effective weapons than trying to make the leap that the jedi in question was not very good at combat and that she was not good at fighting against opponents armed with only lasers or blasters.

If you want to get picky as to how powerful Maks Leem was we can argue it over PMs or in another thread rather than derail this one.

Edit: pms edited to PMs, oops, heheh.

[Cykeisme]

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. But it seems easier to assume from the passage that the flechette weapons were just very effective weapons than trying to make the leap that the jedi in question was not very good at combat and that she was not good at fighting against opponents armed with only lasers or blasters.

Ah, but you see, it may be that flechette weapons are very effective weapons because most Jedi are unprepared to defend themselves against opponents armed with weapons other than lightsabers or blasters.

Obi-Wan, an experienced veteran of many battles, was able to maintain the presence of mind necessary to effectively use precognition and telekinesis to easily defend himself from a considerably rapid stream of flechettes from Durge.

[Darth Fanboy]

After noting that the battle droids are engaging them with flechette launchers, sonic grenades, flamethrowers, and tactical tractor beams, this is the quote Jai Maruk uses.

Pretty much the stuff you might equip your battle droids with if you knew you were hunting Jedi and had heard they were good at deflecting blaster bolts.

Here's what i'm getting out of this passage:

-Jai Maruk immediately identifies these weapons as weapons that would be used by Jedi Hunters, implying that they are more effective for use in combat against Jedi.

-Jai Maruk was able to identify the flechette launchers, meaning that in some capacity he had to have expected them. I sincerely doubt that Jedi being sent into combat situation or even a potential combat situation, especially in the middle of a war where Jedi have been actively hunted down, not expecting to see such weapons if and when a fight broke out.

-"Heard theywere good at deflecting blaster bolts" seems to note that not all Jedi are good at blocking blaster bolts, but that these two Jedi are, which would indicate a average or above average combat prowess.

Regarding Obi Wan, remind me which fight (I thumbed through some of the Clone Wars comics fights and couldn't find what I think you were talking about but I know it is somewhere). The thing about that though is how much did Obi Wan have to utilize the force to simply handle Durge's attack? If there had been a pair of battle droids firing similar projectiles at the same rate of speed would Obi Wan have been able to handle the attack as well?

Edit: Grammar and typing fixed.

[Ritterin Sophia]

-Jai Maruk immediately identifies these weapons as weapons that would be used by Jedi Hunters, implying that they are more effective for use in combat against Jedi.

How often do we see deflections in contrast to tk shields?

-Jai Maruk was able to identify the flechette launchers, meaning that in some capacity he had to have expected them. I sincerely doubt that Jedi being sent into combat situation or even a potential combat situation, especially in the middle of a war where Jedi have been actively hunted down, not expecting to see such weapons if and when a fight broke out.

Or the rumors abound about how good Jedi are at deflecting and redirecting.

-"Heard theywere good at deflecting blaster bolts" seems to note that not all Jedi are good at blocking blaster bolts, but that these two Jedi are, which would indicate a average or above average combat prowess.

Or someone had obviously seen many Jedi in action, and it is most believable since one of the first things we see younglings with lightsabers doing, is deflecting blaster bolts set to minimal.

[Darth Fanboy]

How often do we see deflections in contrast to tk shields?

Or the rumors abound about how good Jedi are at deflecting and redirecting.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. We see deflections against blaster bolts and TK shields against physical projectiles. Weapons such as Frag grenades with an area effect (and I think this is mentioned later in the EU also by either Kyp Durron or one of the Solo kids) have been noted even by Jedi to be proven more effective against Jedi than conventional blasters.

My point is that weapons like Flechette launchers, frag grenades, etc... can overwhelm Jedi, thus making them preferred weapons (aside from Nukes or orbital bombardment of course) against Jedi. Even though a TK shield can work, the point is that having to use TK strains the Jedi, and if there are enough projectiles the Jedi could be overwhelmed.

Or someone had obviously seen many Jedi in action, and it is most believable since one of the first things we see younglings with lightsabers doing, is deflecting blaster bolts set to minimal.

Well regardless of who was in the temple or not, Asajj Ventress had definitely seen plenty of Jedi in action. I reasoned that it was considered common knowledge to those who know of Jedi that they can deflect blaster bolts, and that further denoting that they were good at it meant something more average. Or maybe I read too much into that one, but I wanted to offer it up for discussion.

[Cykeisme]

My point is that weapons like Flechette launchers, frag grenades, etc... can overwhelm Jedi, thus making them preferred weapons (aside from Nukes or orbital bombardment of course) against Jedi. Even though a TK shield can work, the point is that having to use TK strains the Jedi, and if there are enough projectiles the Jedi could be overwhelmed.

The same can be said about blasters; with enough projectiles (bolts, anyway), you could overwhelm a Jedi.


However, I think the plus point is that when the Jedi defends himself against flechettes and grenades, he can't nullify the attacks while simultaneously turning them back against their attacker. This is a major advantage, since the attackers will be alive long enough to tire the Jedi out. With blasters, your droids/troops would have been hit by the redirected blaster shots.
This is possibly the most important point.

[Darth Fanboy]

nd if there are enough projectiles the Jedi could be overwhelmed.

The same can be said about blasters; with enough projectiles (bolts, anyway), you could overwhelm a Jedi.[/quote]

Agreed, but you don't see a lot of blasters putting out a scattered and harder to deal with projectile such as flechettes, or fragmentation.

However, I think the plus point is that when the Jedi defends himself against flechettes and grenades, he can't nullify the attacks while simultaneously turning them back against their attacker. This is a major advantage, since the attackers will be alive long enough to tire the Jedi out. With blasters, your droids/troops would have been hit by the redirected blaster shots.
This is possibly the most important point.

It is an important point, but I'm not so sure it is the single most important point.

[Major Maxillary]

If my expirience playing Battlefront 2 is any indication, the Jedi are completely unable to defend against any ranged attack directed at their legs, and that four good shots in the kneecap from a blaster rifle is enough to kill them.

but seriousley, I have seen nothing to suggest that light sabers vaporize metal completely. also, nothing can block a .45-70 Gov't.