Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

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ray245
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by ray245 »

Chimaera wrote:Or maybe it gives the optimistic message of how no matter when or where evil rears its ugly head, good people will rise to the occasion and defeat it in the name justice and peace. The little guy will always win in the end, because they have good on their side. The Jedi and Sith are the representations of that struggle, and that will always be what Star Wars is about.
Evil in the general sense, yes I have no problem with that. However, I would like to believe that certain kinds of threat could be eliminated for good. Like dealing with Nazism for instance, and the idea that all the effort and death during WW2 weren't in vain.

Or at the very least, allow our protagonists to raise their family in a lifetime of peace, and not be forced into fighting a galactic wide conflict every few years. The old Republic stood for a thousand years without experiencing an inter-galactic war. Asking for some relative peace for the old cast, or at the very least allow them not to face the same kind of threat makes it seem reasonable and reasonably humane in a metanarrative sense.
Ray, if you're going to consider any bit of reason as to why Sith make sense an in universe explanation, there is no way this debate can possibly continue. The Taoist nature of the Force is not an in universe explanation.

I understand the dislike of the concept of new Sith after Anakin was redeemed and brought balance to the Force, I had the same hesitations initially. But I came to realize that it makes more sense that Vader gave his life to defeat the Emperor and end that line of Sith Lords, not that he would be capable of wiping out the Dark Side in its entirety.
I'm talking about trying to approach story-writing from a metanarrative sense, about what kind of story do you want to construct in the long run. If the Sith and the dark side can never be defeated, or at the least forced into hiding for a thousand years, then it makes Star Wars an endless tragedy. Conflicts becomes dramatic when you have the possibility of achieving peace. Having an endless conflict between Jedi and Sith, with new Darksider being reborn every few years, makes the whole nature of peace in Star Wars nothing but an dream that cannot be achieved by our protagonist.

Knowing that the dark side is going to come back again to haunt our protagonist, it severely affects my enjoyment of ROTJ even more than it has. Now I have to look at the final scenes of ROTJ knowing that all the celebration doesn't matter at all because the rebels can never win. Knowing that the franchise is under the hands of people who doesn't understand the consequences they will cause in the way they approach story-telling makes its harder and harder for me to enjoy an ending to a SW movie.

It creates a precedence where we might still see X-Wings vs TIE 30 years down the line, all because one generation of fans decides there is only one way to approach visual design and storytelling for Star Wars. It's inherently uncreative and too conservative for people working in the art industry. It's why I do not want anyone who self-profess to be a big fan to direct and manage a Star Wars movie. Nostalgia badly affects the creativity process in my opinion.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

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Soontir C'boath wrote:I guess all those "good" EU material that doesn't necessarily involve lightsabers are not SW then including the acclaim Rogue Squadron series, Corran Horn aside. One of the main things I really liked about XWA were the missions that involved the Azzameen family dealing with smugglers and pirates and what not. It was cool being a mundane human being living in a universe that frankly has a small population of force users compared to everyone else anyway. So I guess you can say, I can readily identify myself easier with an Azzameen or a Han Solo for that matter than a Luke or Anakin Skywalker.

Also after all, while Star Trek was centrally focus on the Federation and the theme of exploration, it wasn't as if we have material regarding Romulans, Klingons, etc and their own "culture". And on top of that, one could say DS9 took a much different approach while still holding elements of what ST is.

Frankly, it's like saying ST should always be about the Enterprise, Kirk, McCoy, Spock, etc and that Sisko, Dax, Kira, Odo, etc should be put into the dustbin forever banished from canon.
And for all of that, we have the EU and the standalone movies.

But this is Episode VII, not "Star Wars Movie Whatever". It's more akin to saying that TNG Season 8, were it to be made today for some reason, should star Sisko, Kira, Dax, Odo, etc. Or DS9 S8 with the Voyager crew. Or Voyager S8 with Archer's grandson as the Captain.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

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Soontir C'boath wrote:I guess all those "good" EU material that doesn't necessarily involve lightsabers are not SW then including the acclaim Rogue Squadron series, Corran Horn aside. One of the main things I really liked about XWA were the missions that involved the Azzameen family dealing with smugglers and pirates and what not. It was cool being a mundane human being living in a universe that frankly has a small population of force users compared to everyone else anyway. So I guess you can say, I can readily identify myself easier with an Azzameen or a Han Solo for that matter than a Luke or Anakin Skywalker.
While I generally think Rogue Squadron was OK, lets face it, it made it two books before one of it's main characters which was very Han Soloish was... wait for it, a Jedi. If you mean just the video game, yeah, I liked it too, but it was blasters and space battles that relied heavily on the themes and actual plot of the movies to fill in the blanks for the player.
Also after all, while Star Trek was centrally focus on the Federation and the theme of exploration, it wasn't as if we have material regarding Romulans, Klingons, etc and their own "culture". And on top of that, one could say DS9 took a much different approach while still holding elements of what ST is.
Took them 3 seasons out of 7 until they got a starship of their own, so Sisko could play Kirk.
Frankly, it's like saying ST should always be about the Enterprise, Kirk, McCoy, Spock, etc and that Sisko, Dax, Kira, Odo, etc should be put into the dustbin forever banished from canon.
To date, 3 out of 5 series was about the USS Enterprise. 6 movies revolved around Kirk and 2 more about reboot Kirk. Of the 3 that don't, Kirk is a cameo in one.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by biostem »

I'd really love to see some non-Jedi, non-Sith force users. I always felt that both factions tried to systematize use of the force to meet their own ends. I realize that we are talking about millennia-old institutions here, but I can't imagine that throughout the entire galaxy, no one else has come up with a method of training force users that is effective.

I hope that whatever those imperial forces are, that they aren't just "The Empire 2". It'd be interesting if they were a more sympathetic force - perhaps some regional defense force that adopted the moniker of the empire so as to inspire obedience, but without all the hateful "baggage" that Palpatine's empire carried - maybe they simply continued to use and develop the technology that that had access to, (like TIEs, Star Destroyers, Stormtroopers, etc).

I wonder what could strip a crashed Star Destroyer down to a skeleton like the one shown - perhaps the imperial forces we saw had to salvage whatever they could from said ship, and they are actually the decendants of the survivors of that crash, who cutoff from imperial rescue/reinforcements, staked out a life for themselves as mercenaries or a local for-hire security force. Heck, maybe they just set themselves up as the local government...
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by The Romulan Republic »

ray245 wrote:
Chimaera wrote:Or maybe it gives the optimistic message of how no matter when or where evil rears its ugly head, good people will rise to the occasion and defeat it in the name justice and peace. The little guy will always win in the end, because they have good on their side. The Jedi and Sith are the representations of that struggle, and that will always be what Star Wars is about.
Evil in the general sense, yes I have no problem with that. However, I would like to believe that certain kinds of threat could be eliminated for good. Like dealing with Nazism for instance, and the idea that all the effort and death during WW2 weren't in vain.

Or at the very least, allow our protagonists to raise their family in a lifetime of peace, and not be forced into fighting a galactic wide conflict every few years. The old Republic stood for a thousand years without experiencing an inter-galactic war. Asking for some relative peace for the old cast, or at the very least allow them not to face the same kind of threat makes it seem reasonable and reasonably humane in a metanarrative sense.
For all you know, the old heroes have been living in peace for many years, given the time between the Original Trilogy and Episode VII.

And I don't agree with the idea that because a victory isn't permanent, its in vain. Conflict may not end, but if you can make just one person's life better for one day, then something good was achieved. And sometimes just standing up to evil and refusing to be cowed is the point.

As for Nazism, as much as I'd like to believe that particular brand of evil was dead and buried, it isn't. Neo-Nazis exist, and even as we write this exchange right wing bigots and opposition to immigration are rising in Europe. And even if Nazis vanished tomorrow, similar ideologies of bigotry and mass murder would be rampant on Earth. That's life.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a conversation about this sort of thing between Buffy and Angel in season three. Basically, Buffy worries that she's not achieving anything because there's always more evil, and they acknowledge that she'll never win but that doesn't make it pointless. I wish I had the dialog on hand right now to quote.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Joun_Lord »

biostem wrote:I hope that whatever those imperial forces are, that they aren't just "The Empire 2". It'd be interesting if they were a more sympathetic force - perhaps some regional defense force that adopted the moniker of the empire so as to inspire obedience, but without all the hateful "baggage" that Palpatine's empire carried - maybe they simply continued to use and develop the technology that that had access to, (like TIEs, Star Destroyers, Stormtroopers, etc).
Well John Boyega's character is confirmed as an actual Stormtrooper and judging by the fight in the hanger there might be some Imp on Imp action, so we might see a faction of the Empire as maybe not the good guys but not exactly the bad guys.

I think it'd be pretty cool if the "Resistance" is more then just the New Republic/Rebels or whatever but has Imperial support too. Maybe the Resistance is a government funded group going against the First Order but without overt support from the actual governments kinda like the Flying Tigers in China during WWII. Both governments are against it because its a threat to both with the Empire especially against it because they are using their stuff that probably ain't even paid off yet considering how new all the stuff the First Order has looks.

I doubt thats whats happened, its probably just Empire vs Rebellion with a different name as Boyega is a deserter after some thing sours him to the Imperial way but I can hope we get something more nuanced.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by ray245 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:For all you know, the old heroes have been living in peace for many years, given the time between the Original Trilogy and Episode VII.

And I don't agree with the idea that because a victory isn't permanent, its in vain. Conflict may not end, but if you can make just one person's life better for one day, then something good was achieved. And sometimes just standing up to evil and refusing to be cowed is the point.

As for Nazism, as much as I'd like to believe that particular brand of evil was dead and buried, it isn't. Neo-Nazis exist, and even as we write this exchange right wing bigots and opposition to immigration are rising in Europe. And even if Nazis vanished tomorrow, similar ideologies of bigotry and mass murder would be rampant on Earth. That's life.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a conversation about this sort of thing between Buffy and Angel in season three. Basically, Buffy worries that she's not achieving anything because there's always more evil, and they acknowledge that she'll never win but that doesn't make it pointless. I wish I had the dialog on hand right now to quote.
The point is you don't have the same bunch of "heroes" fighting the same threat again and again. It's like telling a tale of WW2 veterans fighting neo-nazi ( that becomes powerful enough to have a military again and be a threat to everyone else). It's the idea that even if you cannot eliminate the threat, your actions would ensure the same kind of threat would not trouble anyone again in your lifetime.

Having a radically different kind of threat at the least makes things more interesting, because it would at the least tell us the protagonist cannot anticipate new kinds of conflict and threats they have to face, rather than having to play a wack-a-mole with the same threat that never dies.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by The Romulan Republic »

biostem wrote:I'd really love to see some non-Jedi, non-Sith force users. I always felt that both factions tried to systematize use of the force to meet their own ends. I realize that we are talking about millennia-old institutions here, but I can't imagine that throughout the entire galaxy, no one else has come up with a method of training force users that is effective.

I hope that whatever those imperial forces are, that they aren't just "The Empire 2". It'd be interesting if they were a more sympathetic force - perhaps some regional defense force that adopted the moniker of the empire so as to inspire obedience, but without all the hateful "baggage" that Palpatine's empire carried - maybe they simply continued to use and develop the technology that that had access to, (like TIEs, Star Destroyers, Stormtroopers, etc).

I wonder what could strip a crashed Star Destroyer down to a skeleton like the one shown - perhaps the imperial forces we saw had to salvage whatever they could from said ship, and they are actually the decendants of the survivors of that crash, who cutoff from imperial rescue/reinforcements, staked out a life for themselves as mercenaries or a local for-hire security force. Heck, maybe they just set themselves up as the local government...
I do not get why people are constantly trying to make the Empire appealing. Is it just fascism fetishism? Is it because moral relativism is trendy these days?

And if that's what you want from the Imperial folks in Episode VII, I think you'll be disappointed. Boyega's character aside, they seem like straight up villains. Though I could be wrong, of course.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by The Romulan Republic »

ray245 wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:For all you know, the old heroes have been living in peace for many years, given the time between the Original Trilogy and Episode VII.

And I don't agree with the idea that because a victory isn't permanent, its in vain. Conflict may not end, but if you can make just one person's life better for one day, then something good was achieved. And sometimes just standing up to evil and refusing to be cowed is the point.

As for Nazism, as much as I'd like to believe that particular brand of evil was dead and buried, it isn't. Neo-Nazis exist, and even as we write this exchange right wing bigots and opposition to immigration are rising in Europe. And even if Nazis vanished tomorrow, similar ideologies of bigotry and mass murder would be rampant on Earth. That's life.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a conversation about this sort of thing between Buffy and Angel in season three. Basically, Buffy worries that she's not achieving anything because there's always more evil, and they acknowledge that she'll never win but that doesn't make it pointless. I wish I had the dialog on hand right now to quote.
The point is you don't have the same bunch of "heroes" fighting the same threat again and again. It's like telling a tale of WW2 veterans fighting neo-nazi ( that becomes powerful enough to have a military again and be a threat to everyone else). It's the idea that even if you cannot eliminate the threat, your actions would ensure the same kind of threat would not trouble anyone again in your lifetime.

Having a radically different kind of threat at the least makes things more interesting, because it would at the least tell us the protagonist cannot anticipate new kinds of conflict and threats they have to face, rather than having to play a wack-a-mole with the same threat that never dies.
Well I would like some diversity in the villains. I hope the Imperial folks are either different from the old Empire, not the only major villains, or both.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by jwl »

Anacronian wrote:
Gandalf wrote:I could see Luke being in seclusion, living as a reclusive monk, emerging to set things right in the galaxy.

Also, I thought the planet may have been Mustafar, though I know that's unlikely.
Mustafar is a good idea - after all that's where his father got maimed and if he himself is in the same condition he might be coming there to look for answers, And Luke is also the best candidate to be the one who preserved Vader's helmet after the funeral pyre.

I mean after the fire dies down and some of Vader's armor remains do you just let lie there for the Ewoks to play with or do you take it with you as the only physical memento of your father?
In the trailer you see the helmet has a skull inside, it's more than just a helmet.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Anacronian »

jwl wrote: In the trailer you see the helmet has a skull inside, it's more than just a helmet.
Image

Image

Where? i only see Vader's melted helmet.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

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The bit on the left eye looks like part of a skull to me.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

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The Romulan Republic wrote: For all you know, the old heroes have been living in peace for many years, given the time between the Original Trilogy and Episode VII.
If the spoilers I have seen are any indication, I doubt they had real peace. Spoiler
Luke didn't go into exile for nothing.
Though the Empire is presumably dead. Battlefront DLC refers to the New Republic beating Imperial holdouts at Jakku only a year after Endor. So there is that. Not to mention that the first image of the trailer shows a Star Destroyer rotting, hardly a sign of Imperial power.
As for Nazism, as much as I'd like to believe that particular brand of evil was dead and buried, it isn't. Neo-Nazis exist, and even as we write this exchange right wing bigots and opposition to immigration are rising in Europe. And even if Nazis vanished tomorrow, similar ideologies of bigotry and mass murder would be rampant on Earth. That's life.
Not to mention that facism, or even more generally extreme nationalism, is all to common. Even in democracies.
And I don't agree with the idea that because a victory isn't permanent, its in vain. Conflict may not end, but if you can make just one person's life better for one day, then something good was achieved. And sometimes just standing up to evil and refusing to be cowed is the point.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a conversation about this sort of thing between Buffy and Angel in season three. Basically, Buffy worries that she's not achieving anything because there's always more evil, and they acknowledge that she'll never win but that doesn't make it pointless. I wish I had the dialog on hand right now to quote.
The episode in question was Gingerbread(S3E11) I believe. Here is that episode's quote:
ANGEL: Buffy, you know I'm still working things out; there's a lot I don't understand. But I know it's important to keep fighting and I learned that from you.

BUFFY: But we never --

ANGEL: We never win.

BUFFY: Not completely.

ANGEL: We never will. That's not why we fight. We do it 'cause there's things worth fighting for.
I also like this somewhat similar quote from Fred in Angel(Offspring):
Fred: Can I say somethin' about destiny? Screw destiny! If this evil thing comes, we'll fight it and we'll keep fightin' it until we whup it. 'Cause destiny is just another word for inevitable, and nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say, "You're evitable!"
Castle starring Nathan Fillion had a similar quote involving the futility of policing.
Detective Beckett: There is no victory. There’s are only battles. In the end, the best that you could hope for is to find a place to make your stand. And if you are very lucky you find someone to stand with you.
While I like this idea in general, I would agree it is somewhat cynical for Star Wars. Even if it does seem inevitable given the nature of the Light and Dark. And that it is certainly realistic.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Well I would like some diversity in the villains. I hope the Imperial folks are either different from the old Empire, not the only major villains, or both.
Given that they are a different organization, I doubt they will be the same. With what Battlefront shows, the new group won't be in power, even if they still have the trappings of the Empire. It seems to be going towards the idea I had, that no one is really in power in the galaxy.
jwl wrote:The bit on the left eye looks like part of a skull to me.
No it doesn't. That looks nothing like a maxilla. It's just the melted helmet. Vader's helmet does have features that seem skull like.

Besides that, if there were still bones present, how did Anakin appear to Luke in spirit form? Yoda and Obi-Wan disappeared.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Joun_Lord »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I do not get why people are constantly trying to make the Empire appealing. Is it just fascism fetishism? Is it because moral relativism is trendy these days?
Alot of reasons, as you said in the post after the one I'm replaying to, having some more diverse villains is nice. Having people fight cartoonly evil Imperials again kinda sucks, especially for people who got to experience that with the EU.

Having the Empire as the not villains makes things a bit fresher, makes new story possibilities, and creates new character dynamics. Boyega's character is probably going to be a deserter but imagine if he wasn't? Imagine people who for 50 years thought of the Empire as pure evil and Stormtroopers as symbols of that evil having to work with a Stormtrooper to save the galaxy? Luke might be able to look past it, especially if he's all Zen Jedi Master, but what about Han, Chewie or Leia, not to mention their kids? It would be a bit like a American Civil War Union soldier being forced to work alongside a Confederate (or vice versa, which ever you think fits better).

There is also the feeling now after seeing the Prequels and seeing the Old Republic in all its glory that while the Empire had its problems it (ignoring EU shit) wasn't as bad as it was thought to be especially when compared to the decadence and greed and corruption of the Old Republic.

Yeah the Empire ended the Senate, the same Senate that allowed freaking corporations to blatantly control politics, that had Senators cruising around in suped up airspeeders probably bought from tax payer coffers, let a corporation that invaded a planet get off scot free, and was filled with Senators who actively aided Rebellion literally hours after the Empire was born despite having no reason to suspect anything was hinky considering the guy telling them the Jedi had rebelled had evidence including video and his burnt ass face.

This is the same Republic that allowed slavery to flourish but said it ain't our problem because it ain't the Republic. Allowed Republic planets to be invaded without doing jack and shit. Allowed a Order of wizards free run of the Republic, killing people and violating peoples rights with no oversight whatsoever. Fought a war with more or less slave soldiers. Used child soldiers. Relied on a monastic order of 10 thousand for defense and policing.

The Empire swept all that away.

The Empire was also just a continuation of the Old Republic, much of what was wrong with it was a continuation of things wrong with the Old Republic. Even its military, symbols of evil and junk, were just continuations of OR stuff. Clonetroopers became Stormtroopers, Jedi Starfighters and V-Wings became TIEs, Venator Star Destroyers became Imperial Star Destroyers, so on and so forth. The Empire was the Republic refined, the Rebels wanting the restoration of the Old Republic are just wanting the Empire thats not called the Empire.

And probably most importantly, the Empire just looks so much cooler then the Rebels. Classy white body armor beats vests, dorky helmets, and trousers. TIE Fighters might not be as effective as X-Wings (depending on the source) but they look cooler, especially Interceptors. Star Destroyers are sleek death machines while Mon Cal Cruisers and Nebulon B's looks like turds (literally) and a pile of parts somebody glued together (which it probably is out of universe).

The FIRST........GALACTIC......EMPIRE for a safe and secure society has the freaking Death Star. Its blows planets up. Its a freaking artificial moon. It shows that the Empire might only have one ball but its bigger then everyone elses. Its probably got a shopping mall that doesn't suck. Does the Rebels or Federation have a Death Star? Nope. Even the Hutts had the Death Shaft meaning they are cooler then the Rebel Scum.

If and when the Rebels get some snazzy new threads and gear, I'll start supporting them.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by jwl »

Adamskywalker007 wrote:
jwl wrote:The bit on the left eye looks like part of a skull to me.
No it doesn't. That looks nothing like a maxilla. It's just the melted helmet. Vader's helmet does have features that seem skull like.

Besides that, if there were still bones present, how did Anakin appear to Luke in spirit form? Yoda and Obi-Wan disappeared.
Good point, I didn't think of that. It still looks rather skull-like though.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Joun_Lord wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:I do not get why people are constantly trying to make the Empire appealing. Is it just fascism fetishism? Is it because moral relativism is trendy these days?
Alot of reasons, as you said in the post after the one I'm replaying to, having some more diverse villains is nice. Having people fight cartoonly evil Imperials again kinda sucks, especially for people who got to experience that with the EU.

Having the Empire as the not villains makes things a bit fresher, makes new story possibilities, and creates new character dynamics. Boyega's character is probably going to be a deserter but imagine if he wasn't? Imagine people who for 50 years thought of the Empire as pure evil and Stormtroopers as symbols of that evil having to work with a Stormtrooper to save the galaxy? Luke might be able to look past it, especially if he's all Zen Jedi Master, but what about Han, Chewie or Leia, not to mention their kids? It would be a bit like a American Civil War Union soldier being forced to work alongside a Confederate (or vice versa, which ever you think fits better).

There is also the feeling now after seeing the Prequels and seeing the Old Republic in all its glory that while the Empire had its problems it (ignoring EU shit) wasn't as bad as it was thought to be especially when compared to the decadence and greed and corruption of the Old Republic.

Yeah the Empire ended the Senate, the same Senate that allowed freaking corporations to blatantly control politics, that had Senators cruising around in suped up airspeeders probably bought from tax payer coffers, let a corporation that invaded a planet get off scot free, and was filled with Senators who actively aided Rebellion literally hours after the Empire was born despite having no reason to suspect anything was hinky considering the guy telling them the Jedi had rebelled had evidence including video and his burnt ass face.

This is the same Republic that allowed slavery to flourish but said it ain't our problem because it ain't the Republic. Allowed Republic planets to be invaded without doing jack and shit. Allowed a Order of wizards free run of the Republic, killing people and violating peoples rights with no oversight whatsoever. Fought a war with more or less slave soldiers. Used child soldiers. Relied on a monastic order of 10 thousand for defense and policing.

The Empire swept all that away.

The Empire was also just a continuation of the Old Republic, much of what was wrong with it was a continuation of things wrong with the Old Republic. Even its military, symbols of evil and junk, were just continuations of OR stuff. Clonetroopers became Stormtroopers, Jedi Starfighters and V-Wings became TIEs, Venator Star Destroyers became Imperial Star Destroyers, so on and so forth. The Empire was the Republic refined, the Rebels wanting the restoration of the Old Republic are just wanting the Empire thats not called the Empire.

And probably most importantly, the Empire just looks so much cooler then the Rebels. Classy white body armor beats vests, dorky helmets, and trousers. TIE Fighters might not be as effective as X-Wings (depending on the source) but they look cooler, especially Interceptors. Star Destroyers are sleek death machines while Mon Cal Cruisers and Nebulon B's looks like turds (literally) and a pile of parts somebody glued together (which it probably is out of universe).

The FIRST........GALACTIC......EMPIRE for a safe and secure society has the freaking Death Star. Its blows planets up. Its a freaking artificial moon. It shows that the Empire might only have one ball but its bigger then everyone elses. Its probably got a shopping mall that doesn't suck. Does the Rebels or Federation have a Death Star? Nope. Even the Hutts had the Death Shaft meaning they are cooler then the Rebel Scum.

If and when the Rebels get some snazzy new threads and gear, I'll start supporting them.
If you think the Death Star is a point in the Empire's favour, you're terribly wrong. The Death Star was intended to commit mass murder of the people of worlds that opposed the Empire. So what if its big and powerful? That's just macho shit at best and fascism fetishism at worst.

As for the Empire replacing the Republic, it replaced it with something worse. Which you contradicted anyway but saying the Empire was a continuation of the Republic.

Also, the Empire wasn't secure if you were an alien or disloyal to the government or on a disloyal world or an incompetant officer.

And as for gear, I'll take the X-wing over any Imperial fighter.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by bilateralrope »

Joun_Lord wrote:There is also the feeling now after seeing the Prequels and seeing the Old Republic in all its glory that while the Empire had its problems it (ignoring EU shit) wasn't as bad as it was thought to be especially when compared to the decadence and greed and corruption of the Old Republic.

Yeah the Empire ended the Senate, the same Senate that allowed freaking corporations to blatantly control politics, that had Senators cruising around in suped up airspeeders probably bought from tax payer coffers,
What exactly did the Empire do to prevent those higher up within it taking part in similar excess ?

Because a behaviour that is the same for both the Empire and the Republic is not a point in either sides favour.
let a corporation that invaded a planet get off scot free,
How is the Empire any better when the person running it is the person who arranged those invasions to happen in the first place ?
and was filled with Senators who actively aided Rebellion literally hours after the Empire was born despite having no reason to suspect anything was hinky
Except the end of their democracy and the person taking over being the one who just ordered the ethnic cleansing of the entire Jedi order.
considering the guy telling them the Jedi had rebelled had evidence including video and his burnt ass face.
Surely someone would have questions as to why the video starts at a point after Mace Windu had entered the room. If the force lightning is on the video, that should raise more questions. Even if they don't, the video is only evidence that a few Jedi were involved and all of those Jedi were dead.
Where is the evidence that justifies killing off the entire Jedi order ?
This is the same Republic that allowed slavery to flourish but said it ain't our problem because it ain't the Republic.
Did the Empire do anything about the slavery ?
Allowed Republic planets to be invaded without doing jack and shit.
Why are you repeating yourself ?
Allowed a Order of wizards free run of the Republic, killing people and violating peoples rights with no oversight whatsoever.
I'd like to see evidence that the Jedi were "killing people and violating peoples rights".
Fought a war with more or less slave soldiers.
They had a sudden war and they needed soldiers in a hurry. They didn't have the luxury of not using the convenient army.

Also, you need to remember that Palpatine was running both sides of that war. It was his plan to start it. He could have ordered peace at any time. But I didn't. So I'd say that all the deaths on both sides are on him. The Empire is built upon those bodies because the goal of the war was to create it.

So how the fuck does anything in that war make the Republic look better than the Empire ?
Used child soldiers.
Ok, that is a problem. But that's got nothing on Palpatine deciding to kill every single child in the Jedi Order.
Relied on a monastic order of 10 thousand for defense and policing.
Which seemed to work until the Sith started breaking it.
The Empire swept all that away.

The Empire was also just a continuation of the Old Republic, much of what was wrong with it was a continuation of things wrong with the Old Republic. Even its military, symbols of evil and junk, were just continuations of OR stuff. Clonetroopers became Stormtroopers, Jedi Starfighters and V-Wings became TIEs, Venator Star Destroyers became Imperial Star Destroyers, so on and so forth. The Empire was the Republic refined, the Rebels wanting the restoration of the Old Republic are just wanting the Empire thats not called the Empire.
How is the genocide of Alderaan a continuation of the Old Republic ?
How is the lack of democracy a continuation of the Old Republic ?
And probably most importantly, the Empire just looks so much cooler then the Rebels.
Ah, so you're not being serious. In that case, I'll just ignore the rest of your post.

I'll leave the rest of this up because I've seen people being serious while saying similar things.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Joun_Lord »

The Romulan Republic wrote: If you think the Death Star is a point in the Empire's favour, you're terribly wrong. The Death Star was intended to commit mass murder of the people of worlds that opposed the Empire. So what if its big and powerful? That's just macho shit at best and fascism fetishism at worst.

As for the Empire replacing the Republic, it replaced it with something worse. Which you contradicted anyway but saying the Empire was a continuation of the Republic.

Also, the Empire wasn't secure if you were an alien or disloyal to the government or on a disloyal world or an incompetant officer.

And as for gear, I'll take the X-wing over any Imperial fighter.
The Death Star was for planetary mining, blow up the planet to get to its gooey caramel center without having to dig to it. Seriously though, its purpose has nothing to do with its coolness factor and besides its a tool, its purpose is whatever is user intends for it. It could blow up planets, knock out planetary shields, or draw dicks into planetary surfaces.

Its also a symbol of the might of the Empire. Its again a freaking artificial moon that can blow up planets. Dats kewl.

Its arguable that the Empire is worse then the Republic. Going by the EU where the Imperials were so evil they probably ate babies (I'm sure that was a plot point in one of the novels, some Imps atleast tried to feed babies to Waru I recall) going by the movies, the bad things they did was killing Luke's Aunt and Uncle and the Jawas and kersploding Alderaan. The former two things are pretty fucked up but Imperial apologists can say they did a summary execution because of the secrecy still surrounding the Death Star, still fucked up though. American whiners can bring up Murican troops in Iraqistan and A-stan have probably done worse without America being an Evil Empire (that point is probably contested by some).

The Empire is both a replacement and a continuation of the Republic. I'm sure there are some real world allegories with like Rome or some shite (the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire?) but I'm far too lazy and tired to try to find one that doesn't suck worse then I do at singing (seriously, ear plugs are a requirement). Its I guess like the Xbox series. The Xbox original was replaced by the Xbox 360 but the 360 is a continuation of the Xbawx line. Or cars. The 2015 Mustang is a replacement for a 2014 Mustang but its also a continuation that may even share some or alot of the same parts (I dunno, I don't know shit about cars except how to wreck them even that I'm bad at considering I try to drive as little as possible, I don't feel comfortable in a multi-ton death machine surrounded by easily squished people and other people in other multi-ton death machines).

Blowing up Alderaan was probably akin to blowing up Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The planet was supposed to be the center of the Rebellion, the Rebel leaders were the leaders of the planet, it provided supplies to the Rebels (the Rebel trooper uniforms were supposed to be Alderaanian), and its leaders were ferrying highly sensitive information on what was pretty much a WMD. You can point to Leia saying Alderaan was unarmed but Leia lied, actually lied like a sentence or two right before saying Alderaan was peaceful and unarmed. And for an unarmed planet they sure had a bunch of well armed troops aboard a well armed starship with a well armed Princess who saw fit to kill a soldier of the legal government (who's blaster was on stun, IT WAS ON STUN!!!!!!!!).

Turned Alderaan into a parking lot......IN SPACE!!!!! can be considered a war crime just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki but it depends on who you ask.

The anti-alien, anti-woman, anti-minority thing of the Imperials was more or less a EU brain bug. Going by the movies alone, yeah they are a bunch of white human males. Well I don't recall too many aliens, women, or minorities at Yavin 4 or Echo Base. In fact at Yavin 4 the only alien I recall was Chewie and the only woman was Leia. There was more women in Echo Base but it was still a predominately white male shin-dig with again poor Chewie being the only alien I recall (well the Tauntauns I guess, those probably don't count though). It was only in the Rebel Fleet at Endor that we actually started seeing non-humans and minorities in any numbers.

There could have been minorities and women and maybe even non-humans on the Imp side, we'd just never know considering most Imps wear identity concealing uniforms. Take for instance the new movies, John Boyega is a Stormtrooper and much to the chagrin of internet racists is black. Would you know if he hadn't removed his helmet? Chrometrooper is supposed to be a woman. Again, would you know if you weren't told? She ain't got no boob plates or anything, other then being silver had having some extra badass bits she looks identical to a regular stormtrooper.

As for people disloyal, well I don't think too many governments are secure for people who can be considered traitors.

And come on mang, the X-Wing is just a space plane, its boring, BORING!!!!! Its not cool at all, its like the space shuttle or something. The TIE Fighter actually looks like unique. Plus its name allows horribly, horribly obvious TIE/Thai jokes. Whats the X-Wing got for jokes, maybe something about porn or chicken wings. Thats not funny.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Joun_Lord »

bilateralrope wrote:Ah, so you're not being serious. In that case, I'll just ignore the rest of your post.

I'll leave the rest of this up because I've seen people being serious while saying similar things.
No I'm not being totally serious but I did try to make some points in my own quarter assed way. Without going into a dissection what you said, though I did read it and agreed with much of it, considering I really need to get some sleep before my already atrocious typing devolves further into gibberish in which even spell check cannot save me from or start repeating entire chunks of my post as I forget what I wrote I'll try to explain a bit of my reasoning in a atleast semi-serious manner.

The Empire was evil, might not have been made up of totally evil people but was still quite evil from the top down. The Republic wasn't really better. If the Empire is the bad guys then so is the Republic. Pretty much everything wrong with the Republic is wrong with the Empire.

And the Republic, the Empire in all but name, is what the Rebellion is fighting for and that is frankly ludicrous. The rot that allowed the Empire to come to power, the greed, the suffering, can't all be blamed on Palpy. It seemed to be there before Palpatine was Chancellor, before he was even Senator, or alive even. The Jedi, this close minded religion that allowed its members to chop up people on the streets, violate peoples minds regularly, and didn't give a flying fuck about slaves until the slaves had something they wanted, turned into the I supposed inhuman, cloistered order we see in the PT not overnight. It had to happen over decades, centuries probably.

The Sith brought down the OR but only through exploiting existing problems. The Republic fragmented and went to war because of existing problems and grievances, the Jedi couldn't detect the return of the Sith because they were already closed off from the world, they couldn't see their world crumble around them because they were practically droids programmed from birth to follow a very narrow set of guidelines and rules.

The Republic, the Empire, the Jedi, the Sith, all created untold amounts of suffering, all did terrible, all brought about their own downfall, none wiped out the Gungans, and probably worst of all they probably all thought they were doing the right thing.

Insert funny quip here.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Joun_Lord wrote:The Death Star was for planetary mining, blow up the planet to get to its gooey caramel center without having to dig to it. Seriously though, its purpose has nothing to do with its coolness factor and besides its a tool, its purpose is whatever is user intends for it. It could blow up planets, knock out planetary shields, or draw dicks into planetary surfaces.
Its purpose is to destroy worlds, at least in part. You could say that its a tool, and you could also say the gas chambers at Auschwitz were tools, but that doesn't mean they aren't vile.
Its also a symbol of the might of the Empire. Its again a freaking artificial moon that can blow up planets. Dats kewl.
Its certainly impressive, but if such a thing really existed, it would be utterly horrifying.
Its arguable that the Empire is worse then the Republic. Going by the EU where the Imperials were so evil they probably ate babies (I'm sure that was a plot point in one of the novels, some Imps atleast tried to feed babies to Waru I recall) going by the movies, the bad things they did was killing Luke's Aunt and Uncle and the Jawas and kersploding Alderaan. The former two things are pretty fucked up but Imperial apologists can say they did a summary execution because of the secrecy still surrounding the Death Star, still fucked up though. American whiners can bring up Murican troops in Iraqistan and A-stan have probably done worse without America being an Evil Empire (that point is probably contested by some).
And what about destroying Alderaan?

Also, your list of bad things the Empire did in the films leaves out torture (not even always for information, mind you) and execution without trial of officers for making mistakes. Plus there's the whole Dark Side thing. You could bring up freedom of religion, but if you go by the films, at least, the Dark Side is clearly evil.
The Empire is both a replacement and a continuation of the Republic. I'm sure there are some real world allegories with like Rome or some shite (the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire?) but I'm far too lazy and tired to try to find one that doesn't suck worse then I do at singing (seriously, ear plugs are a requirement). Its I guess like the Xbox series. The Xbox original was replaced by the Xbox 360 but the 360 is a continuation of the Xbawx line. Or cars. The 2015 Mustang is a replacement for a 2014 Mustang but its also a continuation that may even share some or alot of the same parts (I dunno, I don't know shit about cars except how to wreck them even that I'm bad at considering I try to drive as little as possible, I don't feel comfortable in a multi-ton death machine surrounded by easily squished people and other people in other multi-ton death machines).
I suppose you could say that the Empire is both a continuation and a replacement of the Republic.
Blowing up Alderaan was probably akin to blowing up Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The planet was supposed to be the center of the Rebellion, the Rebel leaders were the leaders of the planet, it provided supplies to the Rebels (the Rebel trooper uniforms were supposed to be Alderaanian), and its leaders were ferrying highly sensitive information on what was pretty much a WMD. You can point to Leia saying Alderaan was unarmed but Leia lied, actually lied like a sentence or two right before saying Alderaan was peaceful and unarmed. And for an unarmed planet they sure had a bunch of well armed troops aboard a well armed starship with a well armed Princess who saw fit to kill a soldier of the legal government (who's blaster was on stun, IT WAS ON STUN!!!!!!!!).
A lot of people would condemn Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well.

Also, given what happened to Leia after she was captured (held without trial and implicitly tortured), she had good reason to resist.
Turned Alderaan into a parking lot......IN SPACE!!!!! can be considered a war crime just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki but it depends on who you ask.
Any deliberate killing of civilians is inexcusable.
The anti-alien, anti-woman, anti-minority thing of the Imperials was more or less a EU brain bug. Going by the movies alone, yeah they are a bunch of white human males. Well I don't recall too many aliens, women, or minorities at Yavin 4 or Echo Base. In fact at Yavin 4 the only alien I recall was Chewie and the only woman was Leia. There was more women in Echo Base but it was still a predominately white male shin-dig with again poor Chewie being the only alien I recall (well the Tauntauns I guess, those probably don't count though). It was only in the Rebel Fleet at Endor that we actually started seeing non-humans and minorities in any numbers.


I'd say that the fact that the Rebellion contained at least two women among its leaders in the films (Leia and Mon Mothma) counts for something. Also, the show Rebels shows more women and aliens in the rebellion.
There could have been minorities and women and maybe even non-humans on the Imp side, we'd just never know considering most Imps wear identity concealing uniforms. Take for instance the new movies, John Boyega is a Stormtrooper and much to the chagrin of internet racists is black. Would you know if he hadn't removed his helmet? Chrometrooper is supposed to be a woman. Again, would you know if you weren't told? She ain't got no boob plates or anything, other then being silver had having some extra badass bits she looks identical to a regular stormtrooper.
Since Disney has taken over their seems to be an effort to make the Empire more diverse. I suspect that's a misguided belief that they have to make the Empire diverse to avoid accusations of prejudice when really they could just say "The Empire are bigots because they're the bad guys, not because Disney condones bigotry". Still, the Empire is mostly white human males.
As for people disloyal, well I don't think too many governments are secure for people who can be considered traitors.
I remember a clip from Rebels that showed a guy getting arrested for treason for virtually nothing.

Also, you ignored everything else I mentioned that could make life dangerous in the Empire.
And come on mang, the X-Wing is just a space plane, its boring, BORING!!!!! Its not cool at all, its like the space shuttle or something. The TIE Fighter actually looks like unique. Plus its name allows horribly, horribly obvious TIE/Thai jokes. Whats the X-Wing got for jokes, maybe something about porn or chicken wings. Thats not funny.
The X-wing is lovely. The striking red and white paint, the sleek yet aggressive-looking shape, the wing tips like four spears flying at your enemies. But aesthetics is somewhat subjective, of course.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Zixinus »

How was the Old Republic corrupt? I have heard the claim sometimes (regarding Dooku, often repeated in SW:CW) but I can't recall any instance of this being demonstrated. The main vein of corruption seems to be central to Palpatine.

You cannot compare destroying Aldaraan to Nagasaki and Hiroshima. There the war was between two nation-states engaged in full-on war, the targets being cities where military production was taking place in a way that made avoiding civilian casualties difficult. Aldaraan was not at war with the Empire, it was a member of it. While it was heavily supporting the Rebellion, destroying the entire planet is not comparable to bombing two cities. That would be like nuking every inch of every island that was part of Japan, turning everything on it into radioactive wasteland. The US wanted surrender, not total annihilation and often justified its use saying that the other viable alternative would have left even more people dead.

There was no fucking justification for the ridiculous overkill except that the Empire wanted to utterly terrorize every denizen of the Empire. It wasn't just constructed as a cool technological marvel, it was made to be a the granite jackboot that destroys anything refusing total domination by the Emperor. They could have chosen to just overpower the shields and destroy the houses of suspected rebel-sympathizers and instill martial law. Instead, they destroyed everything and everyone on the planet. For what? To terrify one suspected Rebel operative?

Oh, and peaceful worlds do not mean they are unarmed. It is a diplomatic vessel, but that does not necessarily mean that they should be defenseless.

In the Old Republic there was at least a semblance of democracy, worlds had Senators speaking for their people. Palpatine had to game that system to ascend in it and corrupt it. The Jedi had faults but were doing their job (it is arguably that was part of their problem). You could argue that the Old Republic was inept, relying on Jedi to do its job. But that was still a heck of a lot better than being dominated by Palpatine who cared mostly about his power and playing his games. He dissolved the Senate to replace them with governors. They openly told that the Empire's strategy of its control was based on fear.


An another note: Jedi can be killed by non-Jedi. Grievous, while educated by an ex-Jedi, was not Force-sensitive and it is arguable whether his Sith master protected him from Jedi foresight. Yet he regularly and reliably killed Jedi or at least fought them to a standstill. Dark-side users can scramble a Jedi's foresight but it was never greatly specified how much and in what matter. We have no reason to assume that in the instances where Jedi were killed by non-Jedi it was somehow due entirely to their distant Sith masters interfering. They can see the future but not absolutely otherwise they would be demi-gods rather than just the enhanced mortals that everyone else was treating them as.

They can make an enemy for the Jedi, even one using the Dark Side, that is not Sith. The Night sisters could be a semi-working example, using rituals and "magics" to partially shield themselves from the corrupting effect of the Dark Side (or that's my theory anyway). They did not have that big of a problem that the Sith have of constant infighting and master-apprentice hostility. Likewise, there is no rule that non-Jedi Light-side users would not fight Jedi.

The problem is the same with any franchise-braking creative endevour, it is risky because people may not like it. It doesn't matter whether its new fans or old fans, it only matters that enough of them don't to make it unsuccessful. This is an inherent problem with continuing a franchise, deviating from it may risk the ire of people who follow it yet staying true to it overtly will make it grow stale. The EU tried to create a new threat and one of them was awful.
The movie, with nostalgia-inspiring trailers that feature actors from the original trilogy and old ships, is not deviating from the Star Wars formula. It clearly has some new takes on the franchise but it is still trying to continue it rather than reinvent it entirely. The Dark Side lord still has an army of faceless mooks (except one that is the protagonist who takes off his helmet), he still has a red lightsaber, it's just a slightly different army of faceless mooks with a slightly different lightsaber.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Purple »

Zixinus wrote:How was the Old Republic corrupt? I have heard the claim sometimes (regarding Dooku, often repeated in SW:CW) but I can't recall any instance of this being demonstrated. The main vein of corruption seems to be central to Palpatine.
I would not call it corrupt as much as simply too big to work. The political system we see just can't seem to cope with having thousands of member systems each pulling their own way. Imagine if instead of having a national assembly modern democratic nations had a senate with one representative from every city, town, village and everything in between. And each of them only really cares for his own world. Why should the village guy care if the cities don't have enough of a budget to fix their roads? He wants more subsidies for his farm. Naturally, to someone who believes that the system should work for the common good this would seem like a weak, corrupt and failing arrangement. And when said system fails to handle one of its member worlds being occupied...
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Anacronian »

Zixinus wrote: An another note: Jedi can be killed by non-Jedi. Grievous, while educated by an ex-Jedi, was not Force-sensitive and it is arguable whether his Sith master protected him from Jedi foresight. Yet he regularly and reliably killed Jedi or at least fought them to a standstill. Dark-side users can scramble a Jedi's foresight but it was never greatly specified how much and in what matter. We have no reason to assume that in the instances where Jedi were killed by non-Jedi it was somehow due entirely to their distant Sith masters interfering. They can see the future but not absolutely otherwise they would be demi-gods rather than just the enhanced mortals that everyone else was treating them as.
Jango Fett also simply gunned down a Jedi on Geonosis and this was a Jedi with ignited lightsaber and what we must asume to be at full battle readyness.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Adam Reynolds »

You can't possible argue that the Empire is good just you subjectively think they are cool. That's like saying that the Nazis were the good guys in WW2 just because Panzer tanks and U-boats are cool.

And the fact that the Old Republic was corrupt is not a justification for the Empire, especially since one of the primary corrupting agents was in charge of the Empire.
Zixinus wrote:How was the Old Republic corrupt? I have heard the claim sometimes (regarding Dooku, often repeated in SW:CW) but I can't recall any instance of this being demonstrated. The main vein of corruption seems to be central to Palpatine.
It depends on whether Palpatine exploited the already corrupt system or if he created that corruption. While some of that was obviously him, some of it was likely innate. Qui-Gon shows exactly what was wrong with both the Jedi and the Republic with one line, "I didn't come here to free slaves."
Zixinus wrote:You cannot compare destroying Aldaraan to Nagasaki and Hiroshima. There the war was between two nation-states engaged in full-on war, the targets being cities where military production was taking place in a way that made avoiding civilian casualties difficult. Aldaraan was not at war with the Empire, it was a member of it. While it was heavily supporting the Rebellion, destroying the entire planet is not comparable to bombing two cities. That would be like nuking every inch of every island that was part of Japan, turning everything on it into radioactive wasteland. The US wanted surrender, not total annihilation and often justified its use saying that the other viable alternative would have left even more people dead.
Given the scale of the SW galaxy, it was directly comparable. The Japanese did not surrender until the Soviets entered the war and removed their last chance of a negotiated settlement. Nagasaki in particular was pointless. Though there is the difference that Alderaan was an Imperial world. And that they weren't in a state of war.
Zixinus wrote:There was no fucking justification for the ridiculous overkill except that the Empire wanted to utterly terrorize every denizen of the Empire. It wasn't just constructed as a cool technological marvel, it was made to be a the granite jackboot that destroys anything refusing total domination by the Emperor. They could have chosen to just overpower the shields and destroy the houses of suspected rebel-sympathizers and instill martial law. Instead, they destroyed everything and everyone on the planet. For what? To terrify one suspected Rebel operative?
Who says they can crack planetary shields without destroying the planet underneath? While I agree that Alderaan was excessive, if it was the only reliable way to crack planetary shields without a long and difficult siege, then it might be necessary in that sense. Not that it was actually necessary to crack the shields in the first place.
Zixinus wrote:An another note: Jedi can be killed by non-Jedi. Grievous, while educated by an ex-Jedi, was not Force-sensitive and it is arguable whether his Sith master protected him from Jedi foresight. Yet he regularly and reliably killed Jedi or at least fought them to a standstill. Dark-side users can scramble a Jedi's foresight but it was never greatly specified how much and in what matter. We have no reason to assume that in the instances where Jedi were killed by non-Jedi it was somehow due entirely to their distant Sith masters interfering. They can see the future but not absolutely otherwise they would be demi-gods rather than just the enhanced mortals that everyone else was treating them as.
Grevious and bounty hunters and numerous battle droids may kill Jedi, but they do it at a time in which the Dark Side was overwhelming the abilities of the Jedi. During the Clone Wars, the Dark Side had permeated so far that the abilities of Jedi are weakened. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were not worried by the possibility of being threatened by an entire army on Naboo (not that they would face it directly). Ten years later two hundred Jedi, including several Council members, are nearly wiped out by a similar sized army. And we never see the displays of power that Obi-Wan makes in TPM repeated in AOTC. Even by Anakin, who has more Force potential than anyone.

As for foresight, it wasn't perfect even in TPM, but it was decidedly more effective. Look at Qui-Gon's premonition that Anakin would handily win the podrace or that Amidala was in danger. Jedi in AOTC never managed this again, with Obi-Wan forced to blindly follow leads rather than relying on his abilities. And the Jedi Council clearly saw that Maul was on Naboo, hence their orders to Qui-Gon to draw him out. Ten years later they completely failed to foresee the creation of an entire army.
Zixinus wrote:They can make an enemy for the Jedi, even one using the Dark Side, that is not Sith. The Night sisters could be a semi-working example, using rituals and "magics" to partially shield themselves from the corrupting effect of the Dark Side (or that's my theory anyway). They did not have that big of a problem that the Sith have of constant infighting and master-apprentice hostility. Likewise, there is no rule that non-Jedi Light-side users would not fight Jedi.
That is possible, but not having conflicting Force users would lead to one side being too powerful.
Anacronian wrote:Jango Fett also simply gunned down a Jedi on Geonosis and this was a Jedi with ignited lightsaber and what we must asume to be at full battle readyness.
And this was a Jedi standing two feet from Count Dooku. Hardly one without a Sith clouding his mind.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

Post by Zixinus »

It depends on whether Palpatine exploited the already corrupt system or if he created that corruption. While some of that was obviously him, some of it was likely innate. Qui-Gon shows exactly what was wrong with both the Jedi and the Republic with one line, "I didn't come here to free slaves."
That does not really answer the question. How was the Old Republic corrupt before or during the Clone Wars? Was this ever presented in the films? Being inept was demonstrated (the Senate could not rally an army but had to be handed one by the Jedi), but when was corruption demonstrated?

"I didn't actually come here to free slaves" proves what? Qui-Gon really didn't go there to free slaves, he came there to gets parts to fulfill his mission. He was obviously opposed to slavery but at that time and place that wasn't his priority. Allowing yourself to be distracted from your mission on some humanitarian tangent is noble, but risks losing the mission altogether that may take more lives than saved by the tangent. Qui-Gon not dropping everything and abandon his other responsibilities at the first opportunity to fix an injustice is not evidence of some sort of corruption, but merely recognition of situation. It makes him human, someone bound by limitations of himself and his environment, rather than Superman who only follows the law when he finds it suitable.
Given the scale of the SW galaxy, it was directly comparable.
I'm sorry, but are you fucking kidding me? No, it is not. Just because there are many planets with people on them does not mean that all planets suddenly become just mere cities. That is a failure of imagination. They are still planets and Alderaan was habitable world that housed 2 billion people.

Again coming back to WW2 analogy, it would be like if the US went and exterminated the entire Japanese population, destroyed indiscrimiately every object the it has ever made, burned and bulldozed every inch of land and covered it with salt. If that sounds insane it is because it is insane. It would be ridicolous overkill but that is excatly what the Empire did.
The Japanese did not surrender until the Soviets entered the war and removed their last chance of a negotiated settlement.
Yes, which is one of the reasons the US (allegedly) used the bomb in the first place: they wanted a weapon that would finally make the Japanese come to their senses and surrender, rather than waste thousands of lives trying fanatically to salvage their defeat.
Who says they can crack planetary shields without destroying the planet underneath?
I admit that I am assuming that the output of the Death Star's beam was adjustable. If it is they could have scaled it up to just enough to overwhelm the planetary shields and make sizable crater. Then orbital bombardment or more regular military action would have done the rest.

Even if it weren't, then that makes the whole overkill thing even worse: now we have a giant, massive technological project that can only destroy planets. They deliberately chose to have a planet-destroying weapon rather than shield-destroying weapons. It means that any time the Death Star's armament ever would come into function against a planet it would destroy everything.
Grevious and bounty hunters and numerous battle droids may kill Jedi, but they do it at a time in which the Dark Side was overwhelming the abilities of the Jedi. During the Clone Wars, the Dark Side had permeated so far that the abilities of Jedi are weakened.
The problem with this theory is that you extrapolate a few discussions from Master Yoda to such an extent that it becomes unprovable. Every Jedi death no matter how remote suddenly would have to be a deliberate intention of a far-away Sith, rather than simply exceeding the limitations of the Jedi being killed. It paints out the Jedi as infallible demi-gods rather than just people with powers.

Sith may cloud the foresight of the Jedi but there is little clear information on how this works. For all we know this is an accidental effect of Sith gaining power. The future may have been clouded because of the extensive direct influence Palpatine and Dooku gained over events.

It is also simply possible that the Jedi could not see foresee what they needed because of hubris, which the Jedi certainly had. Then the Dark Side's growth (which may be just accidental and related to the braking out of a war) would then just be an excuse.

We come back to one point: how did Grievous kill or injure several Jedi at the Battle of Muunilinst? No Sith was there and we have no reason to believe that Dooku or someone else was directly influencing the battle or somehow protecting Griveous. Yet Grievous mopped the fucking floor with Jedi.

The more workable explanation is simply that Jedi foresight is more limited and vague. Sensing danger does not mean you will automatically dodge a nuclear bomb. If Jedi's foresight were that powerful than it would actually destroy dramatic tension: instead of just giving the heroes a chance it would guarantee it with fate.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were not worried by the possibility of being threatened by an entire army on Naboo (not that they would face it directly). Ten years later two hundred Jedi, including several Council members, are nearly wiped out by a similar sized army.
You answer your own question: they were not worried about the possibility because they didn't go there to fight the entire army by their lonesome. They were confident in their ability to hide. At no moment was either prepared to single-handily destroy the entire army by themselves. There is also the possibility that they did not seem worried because they had no other choice in the matter and did not allow it to worry them for it might have ruined their focus.

The army at Naboo was not the entire Seperatist army. If it were then the Seperatist threat would have ended then and there. The Seperatist army was huge, expanding troughout the war and gaining competence with experience. As the Jedi entered the war it would only make sense that the Seperatist army would become more apt at killing Jedi by deliberately taking anti-Jedi measures, such as Magna-guards.
And we never see the displays of power that Obi-Wan makes in TPM repeated in AOTC. Even by Anakin, who has more Force potential than anyone.
Because the script writer did not want them to. One of the problems with writing superhuman characters is that the limitations have to adjusted as the story is written and rewritten and consistent levels may change.
As for foresight, it wasn't perfect even in TPM, but it was decidedly more effective. Look at Qui-Gon's premonition that Anakin would handily win the podrace or that Amidala was in danger.
He knew Anakin would win because he was the most powerful Force-sensitive Qui-Gon ever met. He could already tell that Anakin could already use the force in a way that would allow him to win the pod-race. In other words Anakin had a massive advantage over other races. It's like predicting that a child Mozart would play back a song or a trough-bred will a lame-race.
That is possible, but not having conflicting Force users would lead to one side being too powerful.
Please elaborate.
And this was a Jedi standing two feet from Count Dooku. Hardly one without a Sith clouding his mind.
And this is the problem with this theory: how do we know that was going on? How do we know that Dooku simply didn't feel threatened and the gunned down Jedi was simply not overwhelmed? We see no move of Dooku doing anything.
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