Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Sgt_Artyom]

I'm not saying it should be emulated, but shirley it set a canon precedent.

That seems to be a fair assumption and don't call me Shirley.

[Lord Revan]

Or that Rey is a tough girl who's grown up in a harsh environment and is capable of defending herself. Like what we see her do.

But (invariably male) internet pisswads don't want to accept that girls can be the tough one, so they mewl and piss that it's "unrealistic".

I think it's less that female can't though and more that they think girls can't be tough and (to them) sexually attractive.

I find it telling that Patroklos assumed that the only reason we don't find Rey unrealistic and bad character is that we're too gaga for the actress to notice.

[Patroklos]

Or that Rey is a tough girl who's grown up in a harsh environment and is capable of defending herself. Like what we see her do.

But (invariably male) internet pisswads don't want to accept that girls can be the tough one, so they mewl and piss that it's "unrealistic".

No. Only one person has said that here. 99% of the people here are talking about her lack of training. We get it, you are too weak minded to actually defend your favorite spank bank memory so you have descended into conspiracy theories.

As to the thugs, if the running hypothesis is that Rey is super awesome at bo fighting because she grew up in a rough place 1.) that applies equally to every singe being we see in this setting including the thugs 2.) she would have had ample chances to apply said skills and would have to achieve the proficiency we see and that would probably mean practicing on members of her small desert community, or in other words her prowess would be no secret.

She is a Mary Sue, enough said. If you can enjoy the movie anyway despite that good for you. If that's the case you don't have to refute it, you shouldn't care. For me you can only get away with that so many times in a single movie, and they went way over that (expert bo fighter, expert pilot (on first try), linguist, engineer, sword fighter (on first try), expert marksmen (on first try), etc.) to keep suspension of disbelief intact.

[Patroklos]

I find it telling that Patroklos assumed that the only reason we don't find Rey unrealistic and bad character is that we're too gaga for the actress to notice.

You missed the point of my comment then. I was making fun of the underhanded method Vendetta was using to stiffle debate by showing how easy it is to go the other way. We can all descend into counter accusations of women hating vs. fanboi wanktard objectification, but the better route is to address what people are actually saying instead of inventing nefarious caricatures to tilt at.

There are plenty of reasons not to believe the Rey character as written and the vast majority of them have been articulated to amount to lack of training. Shoehorning in some misogynist conspiracy theory is not supported, at least in regards to this thread.

[Galvatron]

She is a Mary Sue, enough said. If you can enjoy the movie anyway despite that good for you. If that's the case you don't have to refute it, you shouldn't care. For me you can only get away with that so many times in a single movie, and they went way over that (expert bo fighter, expert pilot (on first try), linguist, engineer, sword fighter (on first try), expert marksmen (on first try), etc.) to keep suspension of disbelief intact.

Having innate Jedi reflexes and living within a diverse community of aliens and droids could account for a lot of that. Also, she told Finn she was a pilot when they were running toward the quadjumper so I doubt that was her "first try."

[Patroklos]

A pilot, who maybe took a scrap hauler to another base on the planet sure. If she had got into the Millenium Falcon and there was some shenanigans regarding getting it into orbit okay. I drive a Jetta not a racecar, but I am pretty sure I could drive an F1 car through a parking lot. Flying through the guts of a Star Destroyer better than the career trained pilots chasing her? That's like me jumping in said F1 and winning Le Mons. Like an amatuer Cesna pilot hopping into an F22 and then shooting down a few Eurofighters piloted by career pilots. Sorry, that's Mary Sue stuff x1000.

Yes, they did something similar with Anakin (though not nearly as drastic), and it was stupid to. If you are referencing the prequels to defend TFA you are defeating yourself.

It didn't look like droids were much present given the head honchos reaction to BB-8. Certainly not enough there for her to know a droids language. Luke worked with Droids all the time and couldn't understand them.

[Channel72]

Yeah, but I still fail to see how any of this is THAT different from Luke. Luke has zero training, except for like, a few minutes with Obi Wan on board the Falcon, (and then later a few days with Yoda), yet he magically is suddenly a fully proficient X-wing pilot at the end of ANH (which we accept why again? Because he drives a landspeeder and shoots womprats on Tatooine?), and in ROTJ he just beats Darth Vader despite the fact we have no indication that he's ever received any lightsaber training. In ESB even, despite the fact that Darth Vader is mostly toying with him, Luke at least stands his ground and seems to be somewhat capable with a lightsaber, despite the fact that he's received zero training in lightsaber combat.

Yet we've always been fine with this for like 30 years. I don't really see how anything that Rey does is significantly more of a stretch. Maybe like... 10% more of a stretch, but nothing that doesn't really amount to nitpicking. Face it, Star Wars shows us that latent force users are Just. That. Awesome.

[Galvatron]

A pilot, who maybe took a scrap hauler to another base on the planet sure. If she had got into the Millenium Falcon and there was some shenanigans regarding getting it into orbit okay. I drive a Jetta not a racecar, but I am pretty sure I could drive an F1 car through a parking lot. Flying through the guts of a Star Destroyer better than the career trained pilots chasing her? That's like me jumping in said F1 and winning Le Mons. Like an amatuer Cesna pilot hopping into an F22 and then shooting down a few Eurofighters piloted by career pilots. Sorry, that's Mary Sue stuff x1000.

That's also Luke, who was somehow qualified to go into battle in a starfighter after playing bullseye-the-womp-rat in Beggar's Canyon with a T-16 skyhopper.

How do we know Rey didn't refine her piloting skills by joyriding at high speed through derelict star destroyers while flying those scrap haulers from base to base?

Note that I didn't even have to reference the prequels this time. Although, as much as I may loathe them, they're still canon and remain applicable to Rey's situation.

[Andy Wylde]

A pilot, who maybe took a scrap hauler to another base on the planet sure. If she had got into the Millenium Falcon and there was some shenanigans regarding getting it into orbit okay. I drive a Jetta not a racecar, but I am pretty sure I could drive an F1 car through a parking lot. Flying through the guts of a Star Destroyer better than the career trained pilots chasing her? That's like me jumping in said F1 and winning Le Mons. Like an amatuer Cesna pilot hopping into an F22 and then shooting down a few Eurofighters piloted by career pilots. Sorry, that's Mary Sue stuff x1000.

That's also Luke, who was somehow qualified to go into battle in a starfighter after playing bullseye-the-womp-rat in Beggar's Canyon with a T-16 skyhopper.

How do we know Rey didn't refine her piloting skills by joyriding at high speed through derelict star destroyers while flying those scrap haulers from base to base?

Note that I didn't even have to reference the prequels this time. Although, as much as I may loathe them, they're still canon and remain applicable to Rey's situation.

Yeah but that link to the Skyhopper you provided explains that the controls of it are similar to the Incom T-65 X-Wing which is what Luke piloted in ANH. But even if Rey did have experience piloting scrap hailers, why would she fly them through destroyed star destroyers if the are made to haul scrap? It is obviously made to haul stuff. So I don't think that she was joyriding in a space garbage truck. At least Luke had experience with the Skyhopper that was similar to operating an X-wing. He also had R2 there for assistance. And watching Rey do all those flying maneuvers, was like watching Han dodge asteroids in TESB. Only a truly experienced pilot can handle stuff like that. The Empire didn't even want to bring star destroyers into the asteroid field to chase the Falcon, until Vader said he don't care and he wants that ship!

Also Biggs was there to back up Luke's flight experience as being one of the "best pilots in the outer rim territory" So Luke does have skills and even Obi Wan said in the beginning of ANH that he heard he has become a pretty good pilot while talking in Ben's hut. And Luke thought that the price Han was asking for the trip off world was enough to buy their own ship and that he could pilot it if need be. So Luke being a good pilot was explained and backed by others before he even got into the X-wing in ANH.

[Patroklos]

That's also Luke, who was somehow qualified to go into battle in a starfighter after playing bullseye-the-womp-rat in Beggar's Canyon with a T-16 skyhopper.

Agreed, but as you note yourself (even if you don't think its enough) they give us SOMETHING. And at no point during the finale of ANH was Luke treated as anything but the hayseed newbie guy who was just there because someone vouched he could fly, it was the end of the world, and they had an X-wing available so why not (a la Randy Quade in ID4). We have Wedge, Porkins and others who are all veterans pilots and written and acted to be that way. Luke was the boot. And his flying showed that. There were no acrobatics, no special maneuvers. When he did anything competent it wasn't because of his innate reflexes or some intuition on his part. The movie shows us the force influencing him, through Obi Wan actually talking to him in some cases, and Luke just doing what he is told. More importantly during all of those events we have already been told Luke is the a force sensitive and heir to a great Jedi legacy. Do we get anything like that in the case of Rey? Nope. Not only is there zero force influence alluded to during the events, we don't even know she is a force sensitive until much later than all of this.

But just think about it. The feats we see Rey pull off in her first flying scene are basically Lando's DS run. Can you think of any flying scene throughout all seven movies that in any way approach what we see Rey do? Even Poe, the established fighter ace and pilot whiz kid of the movie, does less impressive stuff than Rey.

How do we know Rey didn't refine her piloting skills by joyriding at high speed through derelict star destroyers while flying those scrap haulers from base to base?

Is that the impression you got from Rey while she was doing it? The movie makes every effort to make sure we know she hasn't done it before, and every effort to make sure we see she is good at it anyway.

Note that I didn't even have to reference the prequels this time. Although, as much as I may loathe them, they're still canon and remain applicable to Rey's situation.

The question isn't is Rey a good pilot. The answer to that is obvious given what we see (yes). The question is does this make the character a unrealistic, boring, a Mary Sue or all three and does any of that make the the movie itself bad or at least lesser than it could have been. Is she so damn good that she broke the movie?

[Grumman]

I think it's less that female can't though and more that they think girls can't be tough and (to them) sexually attractive.

Tough girls can be sexy. The problems I have with it here is that that Rey's character hasn't been properly set up the way a 00 agent or a Jedi Knight has to justify being all-round awesome, and that Abrams did it at the expense of other members of the ensemble. Abrams didn't even let a trained soldier help Rey win a fight; it's like if A New Hope featured a scene with Luke shoving R2-D2 away from a computer terminal and hacking it himself.

Yeah, but I still fail to see how any of this is THAT different from Luke. Luke has zero training, except for like, a few minutes with Obi Wan on board the Falcon, (and then later a few days with Yoda), yet he magically is suddenly a fully proficient X-wing pilot at the end of ANH (which we accept why again? Because he drives a landspeeder and shoots womprats on Tatooine?)...

In A New Hope, Luke gets waylaid by sand people and is saved by Obiwan, almost gets murdered in a bar fight and is saved by Obiwan, is one of six people who rescue Princess Leia from the Death Star, shoots down a couple of TIE fighters from the Millenium Falcon's turret, ganks a TIE fighter chasing Wedge and Wedge ganks a TIE fighter chasing Luke in turn, almost gets killed by Darth Vader and is saved by Han and Chewie ganking Darth Vader's squadron, and fires the torpedo that blows up the Death star.

Yes, he's a fully proficient X-wing pilot by the end of A New Hope... who shoots down one enemy fighter that was distracted by another dogfight, gets rescued twice, and carries out a bombing run that hit its mark. He is not also a brawler, a proficient mechanic, a Force user of any great ability and a lightsaber duelist.

[Vympel]

Agreed, but as you note yourself (even if you don't think its enough) they give us SOMETHING. And at no point during the finale of ANH was Luke treated as anything but the hayseed newbie guy who was just there because someone vouched he could fly, it was the end of the world, and they had an X-wing available so why not (a la Randy Quade in ID4). We have Wedge, Porkins and others who are all veterans pilots and written and acted to be that way. Luke was the boot. And his flying showed that. There were no acrobatics, no special maneuvers. When he did anything competent it wasn't because of his innate reflexes or some intuition on his part. The movie shows us the force influencing him, through Obi Wan actually talking to him in some cases, and Luke just doing what he is told. More importantly during all of those events we have already been told Luke is the a force sensitive and heir to a great Jedi legacy.

Luke was, apart from Wedge and unknown Y-Wing pilot, literally the only survivor of the Battle of Yavin. An untrained civilian airpseeder pilot, he flew formation with military pilots, barked orders he had no right to give, engaged and destroyed enemy fighters, dodged fire from enemy fighters, and strafed ground targets more effectively than anyone else. His being treated as the 'hayseed newbie guy' is entirely at odds with how well he performed in the battle - which was far better than he had any reasonable right to. Oh, and he no-scoped the Death Star. Only one of the most pivotal events of the entire saga.

And yes, all of that is because he is strong in the Force (Vader even says so while trying unsuccessfully to target him). The whole 'my T-16' thing is completely idiotic.

The movie clearly establishes that Rey is strong in the Force too - what difference does it make if its before or after the sequence where she flies the Falcon?

QUI-GON : He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.

But just think about it. The feats we see Rey pull off in her first flying scene are basically Lando's DS run. Can you think of any flying scene throughout all seven movies that in any way approach what we see Rey do? Even Poe, the established fighter ace and pilot whiz kid of the movie, does less impressive stuff than Rey.

That's absurd. Watch the movie again. Poe pulls insane maneuvers and pulls off successful kill after successful kill of TIE Fighters who would only be in his sights for half a second at a time, if that, in the battle above Maz's castle. This is far more difficult than dodging some obstacles. He also gets his X-Wing through an insanely tight space (only possible by closing his S-foils) and flies around within the oscillator firing torpedoes and leaves the way he came - a very very tight turning circle.

Is that the impression you got from Rey while she was doing it? The movie makes every effort to make sure we know she hasn't done it before, and every effort to make sure we see she is good at it anyway.

Um - no it doesn't. She says she's a pilot both before and after the sequence (after being when Finn and Rey are excitedly chattering to each other she says that she's flown before but never outside of an atmosphere).

[Galvatron]

How do we know Rey didn't refine her piloting skills by joyriding at high speed through derelict star destroyers while flying those scrap haulers from base to base?

Is that the impression you got from Rey while she was doing it? The movie makes every effort to make sure we know she hasn't done it before, and every effort to make sure we see she is good at it anyway.

The impression I got is that Rey led a dreary, boring life full of routine upon routine trying to scrape together a meal each day and probably knew every square meter of those downed ships after all the years she spent scavenging parts out of them.

Therefore, even if I'm wrong and she didn't get her kicks zooming through its cavernous innards whenever she could find work as a pilot, I can imagine that when fleeing those TIE fighters and looking for cover, that old star destroyer was about as close to familiar terrain as she could find on that barren desert world.

Vympel said everything else I wanted to say so I'll leave my response at that.

[Kojiro]

I think that most of the 'Mary Sue' issues people have with Rey is that while watching the film, some part of their brain went 'Nope, I don't buy it.' That pulls you out of the film and hurts your appreciation of it.

This is especially true when the film seems to go out of it's way to create these moments.

Does Rey need to speak alien scrap merchant? No, but it shows us she does, making it the fourth language she knows. These guys are all over the scrap yard so it's no problem. But we see no wookies or droids*.

Does Rey really need to pull a spectacular maneuver to line up a locked gun on a TIE? Couldn't we just skip the whole 'it's locked in position' thing and have Finn be useful for once? Or move to the top gun? Of course we could. We could skip the CGI slow mo shot and just let the gunner do their job. But they elected to spend money and screen time showing us how awesome Rey was. They literally create a convoluted reason to put her awesomeness on screen. So we can watch her line up a gun she can't see on a target she can't see. So far Finn has failed to do just that with the gun working and targeting computer- despite the fact we're told earlier he knows how to man a gun.

Do we get to see Finn, at the base he worked at, finally demonstrate he knows some of the tricks or the systems there? Do we see him digging through a panel to open the security doors for Solo and Chewie? Nope, even at Finn's old base it's Rey that provides the fix.

It's this doing everything that does it to me. I don't mind she can fight. Or fix things, or other stuff, every character should have skills. But not all the skills, and certainly not when there are more plausible ways to handle things.

To use Firefly as a reference, she's Wash the pilot, Jane the brawler, Kaylee the mechanic and Mal the strong independent. And just to top it off she's also River the special one. But with none of the downsides of those characters or any flaws of her own.

I also worry that since she's already powerful enough to kick Ren's ass while completely untrained, how can there be any tension when they fight next? Even if we assume Ren started his training at 19, like Luke, he's still got a decade on her, much of which is down the easier, faster Dark path. And she's already beating him with raw power.



*I'm still wondering why droids don't speak basic. They clearly understand it and can playback audio so... what the hell?

[Andy Wylde]

I also worry that since she's already powerful enough to kick Ren's ass while completely untrained, how can there be any tension when they fight next? Even if we assume Ren started his training at 19, like Luke, he's still got a decade on her, much of which is down the easier, faster Dark path. And she's already beating him with raw power.

Yeah this is one of my concerns with the whole Rey vs. Ren in episode 8. I can imagine what kind of hissy fit Kylo had when he got back after losing to 2 novices at his own game? He becomes a whiny bitch when he gets bad news from an officer. Can you imagine after this? But for the most part I believe that Rey is Luke's daughter or at least trained buy him if anything.

She was left on Jakku at age 3 I believe? And she was left with Unkar Plutt? He was the guy holding her arm when she was crying in the flashback scene. So whoever left her left her in the care of this guy? WTF were they thinking? I was annoyed with the sudden Jedi powers she gained out of nowhere, but this is SW and I shouldn't really count it out of the realm of possibility for the time being. It just gets to me how all the other Jedi had to have instruction and discipline to learn their craft. If she just can up and use it her convenience, than it is what it is. Because if that was to be the case, than what was the purpose of the Jedi academy then? When Obi Wan and Yoda could have just told Luke, hey you are force sensitive! Just click your heels three times and say I think I can! I think I can! I think I can! And you are a Jedi!

It is starting to feel like Rey is the new canon version of Galen Marek from TFU. That is what made the Jedi so unique in the previous trilogies to me. Was that the force wasn't only a power but also a philosophy and way of life. Among other things. But I just hope that they really don't go down some cheap route with Rey. And also one other thing to consider is we see that Luke ran after Kylo turned and killed the rest of his students. So Luke goes through the trouble to start a new order to just up and run at the first sign of trouble? So he will send Rey to kill Kylo because he obviously won't or can't. Because if Luke was able to see all his students killed and not do anything about Kylo? Then that says more about Luke than anything. Because Luke should have taken care of Kylo as soon as all this shit went down. Because now Kylo killed Han. Is part of the FO that took out a bunch of planets with the Star Killer. So Luke was willing to die in the OT for his friends and cause now he runs fro trouble?

[Kojiro]

She was left on Jakku at age 3 I believe? And she was left with Unkar Plutt? He was the guy holding her arm when she was crying in the flashback scene. So whoever left her left her in the care of this guy? WTF were they thinking?

I believe it was age 5 and she's currently 19.

I think her mother was fleeing the First Order and set down at the junk yard for repairs after a close call. Rey is left behind because Skywalker (or his progeny) are the real prize and her mother leads them away, promising to return. Plutt was only supposed to be a temporary, best of a bad lot choice. That's my theory anyway.

I was annoyed with the sudden Jedi powers she gained out of nowhere, but this is SW and I shouldn't really count it out of the realm of possibility for the time being.

I don't mind jedi powers manifesting but I strongly feel they should be raw, instinctual or unrefined. Minor precog (jedi reflexes) or explosive, undirected TK. That sort of thing. The mind trick especially feels like a subtle, delicate move that an untrained person would have no idea how to do. Likewise lightsaber skills are definitely not something she should pick up.

I guess a good analogy would be art. Most people don't even have paints or a brush, but force users do. But just because you've got access to the medium, doesn't mean you're going to immediately start pumping out masterpieces. Your first works will reflect your lack of technique and knowledge. And that is what the Jedi training is all about- learning those techniques to achieve the effects you want.

[The Original Nex]

Am I the only one who was unimpressed by Rey's pilot skills?

[Andy Wylde]

She was left on Jakku at age 3 I believe? And she was left with Unkar Plutt? He was the guy holding her arm when she was crying in the flashback scene. So whoever left her left her in the care of this guy? WTF were they thinking?

I believe it was age 5 and she's currently 19.

I think her mother was fleeing the First Order and set down at the junk yard for repairs after a close call. Rey is left behind because Skywalker (or his progeny) are the real prize and her mother leads them away, promising to return. Plutt was only supposed to be a temporary, best of a bad lot choice. That's my theory anyway.

I was annoyed with the sudden Jedi powers she gained out of nowhere, but this is SW and I shouldn't really count it out of the realm of possibility for the time being.

I don't mind jedi powers manifesting but I strongly feel they should be raw, instinctual or unrefined. Minor precog (jedi reflexes) or explosive, undirected TK. That sort of thing. The mind trick especially feels like a subtle, delicate move that an untrained person would have no idea how to do. Likewise lightsaber skills are definitely not something she should pick up.

I guess a good analogy would be art. Most people don't even have paints or a brush, but force users do. But just because you've got access to the medium, doesn't mean you're going to immediately start pumping out masterpieces. Your first works will reflect your lack of technique and knowledge. And that is what the Jedi training is all about- learning those techniques to achieve the effects you want.

Yes I agree with this. I don't even have a problem with Rey being strong in the force. My only real issue is at least let her get even a basic understanding of what the force is about. Then if she picks it up fast I wouldn't mind that at all. But seeing 2 trilogies show how force sensitive people try to understand it and see it beyond all the neat tricks and what not. It would be like some kid who never touched a guitar and than busting out some Van Halen type solos. And what strikes me even more as odd is that Maz who even claims she isn't a Jedi yet seems to know a lot about them. And I didn't even understand why they made her a pirate when they could have had her just be the wise old bar keep.

Maz Kanata reminds me of Chris Farley in Wayne's World 1 where he is just the security guard that seems to know all about what Mr. Biggg was going to be doing.

[Patroklos]

Luke was, apart from Wedge and unknown Y-Wing pilot, literally the only survivor of the Battle of Yavin. An untrained civilian airpseeder pilot, he flew formation with military pilots, barked orders he had no right to give, engaged and destroyed enemy fighters, dodged fire from enemy fighters, and strafed ground targets more effectively than anyone else. His being treated as the 'hayseed newbie guy' is entirely at odds with how well he performed in the battle - which was far better than he had any reasonable right to. Oh, and he no-scoped the Death Star. Only one of the most pivotal events of the entire saga.

1.) Survival does not in and of itself demonstrate skill. COMPNOR has a spot open for you.
2.) Formation flying is a thing in atmosphere too and a basic one at that, he was given both non-trivial experience as a pilot and reputation from Biggs on top of it via worldbuilding. Rey had neither. End of story.
3.) What orders did he bark?
4.) He helped destroy an enemy fighter, in conjunction with veterans who were some of the best aces in the galaxy who were holding his hand. I would hope they could coax some use out of Luke, that's actually EXACTLY how it worked with newbies in WWII. Especially the Germans who had little time for basic training at the end.
5.) Dodged some enemy fire eh? Its almost like you except every person on their first mission to instantly die. Hint: they don't.
6.) We are shown that the only reason Luke hit anything, being turbo lasers or the exhaust vent, was via force/divine intervention. Did we get any prompts like that in the case of Rey?
7.) Not at all. He was just a mook who largely survived via luck up until the very end where he was surly going to die until A.) a worldly smuggler with lots of experience saved him and 2.) the force/divine intervention was SHOWN (let me say that again, SHOWN, in a movie, a visual medium...) made that shot. What, you think mk1 human Luke Skywalker did that all on his lonesome? Who do you think he is, Rey?

And yes, all of that is because he is strong in the Force (Vader even says so while trying unsuccessfully to target him). The whole 'my T-16' thing is completely idiotic.

If you were using that (his own boasts, and the personal recommendation of an Ace pilot...) to establish he was the best pilot seen in seven movies and an entire galaxy? Yes. If it is to explain why he knows where the buttons are in an X-wing cockpit, its quite adequate. And again more than we get with Rey.

The movie clearly establishes that Rey is strong in the Force too - what difference does it make if its before or after the sequence where she flies the Falcon?

Luke didn't make the shot because he was "strong in the force." He made the shot because, with verbal guidance from Obi, he looked for the force and USED it. It wasn't some background automatic thing. At this point Rey doesn't just not use the force, she doesn't even know about it.

QUI-GON : He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.

Again, living down to the prequels is an admission of defeat. We are not talking about whether Rey is a great pilot, we saw her be the best pilot to ever appear in the series. The question is whether that is stupid. It is, just like it was in TPM. "LETS TRY SPINNING!"

That's absurd. Watch the movie again. Poe pulls insane maneuvers and pulls off successful kill after successful kill of TIE Fighters who would only be in his sights for half a second at a time, if that, in the battle above Maz's castle. This is far more difficult than dodging some obstacles. He also gets his X-Wing through an insanely tight space (only possible by closing his S-foils) and flies around within the oscillator firing torpedoes and leaves the way he came - a very very tight turning circle.

He shoots TIEs in open atmoshere, which we see plenty of people do. YAWN. Now, if he were able to maneuver a near broken down freighter to bring a stuck dorsal turret to aim off center to best a trained fighter pilot WHILE flying through a wrecked star destroyer THAT would be some real flying. What character did we see do that again?

And no, Poe's oscillator shenanigans were not impressive (relative). He sneaks through ONE tight spot (Rey did half a hundred) with a dedicated combat craft he is trained to use and familiar with (as opposed to a large freighter one has never used before) and is not being followed and shot at while inside it (unlike a certain MAry Sue who is flying through hulks). If Rey's stupid scene hadn't been there it would have been impressive, but alas Poe is just one of a series of potentially cool characters who have their role usurped by Mary Sue.

Um - no it doesn't. She says she's a pilot both before and after the sequence (after being when Finn and Rey are excitedly chattering to each other she says that she's flown before but never outside of an atmosphere).

[/quote]

Oh, Rey is a pilot. Impoverished, lives in a abandoned vehicle, works hand to mouth Rey just for some reason is a pilot. No, no Mary Sue shenanigans going on there. No sir. OF COURSE SHE IS A PILOT! I mean, why wouldn't she be?

So she is a pilot I guess. Well then that explains everything. Apparently you think every "pilot" can pull off the ROTJ DS run, its the ONLY qualification needed! Lando, Han, Wedge, Poe? THEY ARE ALL THE SAME! Just check "pilot" on your application and you can do everything they can. Aren't all these characters so special! It TOTALLY makes the world a richer and more lived in place to know anyone with the slighest bit of knowledge can instantly be just like them. Seriously, whats up with that pussy Luke who had to have his hand held by the Rebels best just to eek out survival? What a sissy! Did he check the wrong box?

I am now off to take an F-22 and single-handedly blow up the NK nuclear reactor. I have a civilian pilots license so its totally realistic and expected that I should be able to do so.

The impression I got is that Rey led a dreary, boring life full of routine upon routine trying to scrape together a meal each day and probably knew every square meter of those downed ships after all the years she spent scavenging parts out of them.

Cool. So whcih Boeing mechanic do you want flying your next 777 through the wrecked hupp of an aircraft carrier?

[Kojiro]

She manages to keep two professional pilots off her ass, despite the fact she's driving an asymmetrical, unfamiliar freighter and they're in military grade fighters. We're even explicitly told she can't turn the shields on and shown these fighter guns can destroy armoured turbo laser turrets.

So not only does she navigate the wreckage at extreme speed, she does so while avoiding fire from professionals in faster, more maneuverable ships.

Finn and Rey were certainly impressed by her flying at the very least.

[Vympel]

1.) Survival does not in and of itself demonstrate skill. COMPNOR has a spot open for you.

Rubbish. Vader expressly says that the Force is strong with him as he's trying to kill him.

2.) Formation flying is a thing in atmosphere too and a basic one at that, he was given both non-trivial experience as a pilot and reputation from Biggs on top of it via worldbuilding. Rey had neither. End of story.

Rubbish. Why would Luke be skilled in fromation flying? And what does Biggs' comment, which wasn't even in the movie at all until 1997, mean? Oh yeah, civilian bush pilots are often trained in military formation flying. Of course you give a civilian pilot a fucking military spacecraft

The glaring double-standard couldn't be more obvious.

3.) What orders did he bark?

Bossing Biggs and Wedge around in his attack run, directing Red Leader where to go in an attempt to save him. When was the last time you even saw the movie?

4.) He helped destroy an enemy fighter, in conjunction with veterans who were some of the best aces in the galaxy who were holding his hand. I would hope they could coax some use out of Luke, that's actually EXACTLY how it worked with newbies in WWII. Especially the Germans who had little time for basic training at the end.

Rubbish. You're talking about a fantasy version of the movie. A TIE Fighter is chasing Biggs, Biggs is crying out that he can't see it, Luke destroys it. I like it how you just invent that these are 'veterans who were some of the best aces in the galaxy' too. Where was that ever said in the movie? Nowhere. You're literally making shit up to shield Luke from the criticism you heap on Rey.

5.) Dodged some enemy fire eh? Its almost like you except every person on their first mission to instantly die. Hint: they don't.

Yes, let us just ignore that Luke, Wedge, and one Y-Wing, out of thirty Rebel ships, are the only ones to make it back. Let us also ignore Darth Vader's comment about this unknown-to-him-pilot, because it is convenient for your bullshit double-standard argument.

6.) We are shown that the only reason Luke hit anything, being turbo lasers or the exhaust vent, was via force/divine intervention. Did we get any prompts like that in the case of Rey?

You mean apart from the fact that mid-way through the movie we know she's Force sensitive, and it is confirmed soon after?

7.) Not at all. He was just a mook who largely survived via luck up until the very end where he was surly going to die until A.) a worldly smuggler with lots of experience saved him and 2.) the force/divine intervention was SHOWN (let me say that again, SHOWN, in a movie, a visual medium...) made that shot. What, you think mk1 human Luke Skywalker did that all on his lonesome? Who do you think he is, Rey?

You are so completely full of shit - so in your book, if the disembodied voice of Alec Guinness says "use the Force", we can safely assume he used the force, but you won't allow for that in a film where Rey is clearly strong in the Force? Why the fuck not? Do we know nothing about the Force until Episode 7?

If you were using that (his own boasts, and the personal recommendation of an Ace pilot...) to establish he was the best pilot seen in seven movies and an entire galaxy? Yes. If it is to explain why he knows where the buttons are in an X-wing cockpit, its quite adequate. And again more than we get with Rey.

Stop bullshitting. Who says Biggs is an ace pilot? No one. For fuck's sake, if we include the deleted scenes from the movie, we know Biggs literally just left Tatooine on the day of the battle in orbit. He's not an ace anything.

Rey says she's a pilot, twice. Why don't you believe her?

Luke didn't make the shot because he was "strong in the force." He made the shot because, with verbal guidance from Obi, he looked for the force and USED it. It wasn't some background automatic thing. At this point Rey doesn't just not use the force, she doesn't even know about it.

That's a distinction without a difference.

Again, living down to the prequels is an admission of defeat. We are not talking about whether Rey is a great pilot, we saw her be the best pilot to ever appear in the series. The question is whether that is stupid. It is, just like it was in TPM. "LETS TRY SPINNING!"

I'm fully justified in using them. There's nothing stupid about it, that Force sensitives have unconscious precognition is an established fact of the setting. If its an established fact of the setting, how can it be stupid?

He shoots TIEs in open atmoshere, which we see plenty of people do. YAWN.

You are so completely full of shit. I just described to you, in exacting detail, what Poe did, and you just have your hand dimissively like an opinionated dickhead and say he just "shot TIEs in open atmosphere". Who are these plenty of people who did anything close to what he did? When did this happen? What movie was it? I'd really love to know when any pilot, anywhere, shot something like five to six TIEs in a matter of seconds while maneuvering then switched to taking out Stormtroopers instantly. I really would.

Now, if he were able to maneuver a near broken down freighter to bring a stuck dorsal turret to aim off center to best a trained fighter pilot WHILE flying through a wrecked star destroyer THAT would be some real flying. What character did we see do that again?

She was already out of the wrecked star destroyer when she pulled that move. Your memory is abysmal.

And no, Poe's oscillator shenanigans were not impressive (relative). He sneaks through ONE tight spot (Rey did half a hundred) with a dedicated combat craft he is trained to use and familiar with (as opposed to a large freighter one has never used before) and is not being followed and shot at while inside it (unlike a certain MAry Sue who is flying through hulks). If Rey's stupid scene hadn't been there it would have been impressive, but alas Poe is just one of a series of potentially cool characters who have their role usurped by Mary Sue.

Wow - you hate that Rey is a good pilot so much you won't even give credit to another scene, your hatred is that intense.

Oh, Rey is a pilot. Impoverished, lives in a abandoned vehicle, works hand to mouth Rey just for some reason is a pilot. No, no Mary Sue shenanigans going on there. No sir. OF COURSE SHE IS A PILOT! I mean, why wouldn't she be?

See, this is what I love - you just don't like it. It doesn't matter if its an established fact of the movie, you just don't like it. Nevermind that its objectively no less ridiculous than Luke being a pilot explaining anything of what he did.

So she is a pilot I guess. Well then that explains everything. Apparently you think every "pilot" can pull off the ROTJ DS run, its the ONLY qualification needed! Lando, Han, Wedge, Poe? THEY ARE ALL THE SAME! Just check "pilot" on your application and you can do everything they can. Aren't all these characters so special! It TOTALLY makes the world a richer and more lived in place to know anyone with the slighest bit of knowledge can instantly be just like them. Seriously, whats up with that pussy Luke who had to have his hand held by the Rebels best just to eek out survival? What a sissy! Did he check the wrong box?

No, her being strong in the Force explains everything. You know, established facts of the setting and what not that you don't want to accept because you subjectively don't like them.

I am now off to take an F-22 and single-handedly blow up the NK nuclear reactor. I have a civilian pilots license so its totally realistic and expected that I should be able to do so.

That you just said this without irony given this is basically the exact fucking thing that Luke did in Episode 4 is hilarious.

[Sgt_Artyom]

She manages to keep two professional pilots off her ass, despite the fact she's driving an asymmetrical, unfamiliar freighter and they're in military grade fighters. We're even explicitly told she can't turn the shields on and shown these fighter guns can destroy armoured turbo laser turrets.

So not only does she navigate the wreckage at extreme speed, she does so while avoiding fire from professionals in faster, more maneuverable ships.

Finn and Rey were certainly impressed by her flying at the very least.

But she did manage to turn the shields on. You can her leaning over to do it and here the switch be flipped. She said it was difficult, not that she couldn't do it.

[Paolo]

So she is a pilot I guess. Well then that explains everything. Apparently you think every "pilot" can pull off the ROTJ DS run, its the ONLY qualification needed! Lando, Han, Wedge, Poe? THEY ARE ALL THE SAME! Just check "pilot" on your application and you can do everything they can. Aren't all these characters so special! It TOTALLY makes the world a richer and more lived in place to know anyone with the slighest bit of knowledge can instantly be just like them. Seriously, whats up with that pussy Luke who had to have his hand held by the Rebels best just to eek out survival? What a sissy! Did he check the wrong box?

I am now off to take an F-22 and single-handedly blow up the NK nuclear reactor. I have a civilian pilots license so its totally realistic and expected that I should be able to do so.

What is the distinction between a civilian and combat aviator in a setting where vehicles routinely pull multiple kilometer per second accelerations? Let's have a round of applause for the computers, which I assume are a cut above the kind Google's installing in automatic cars.

[Patroklos]

Rubbish. Vader expressly says that the Force is strong with him as he's trying to kill him.

You know, you don't have to be a force sensitive to have the force be strong with you. Jedi's say that all the time to all sorts of people. You can take it literally if you want to, but coming from Vader it sounds more like "damn, Gods watching over this dude" because he is giving him trouble.

Either way what does that have to do with him surviving? 30 year Army veterans died on Omaha beach while boot privates walked off. Its war.

Rubbish. Why would Luke be skilled in fromation flying? And what does Biggs' comment, which wasn't even in the movie at all until 1997, mean? Oh yeah, civilian bush pilots are often trained in military formation flying. Of course you give a civilian pilot a fucking military spacecraft

The glaring double-standard couldn't be more obvious.

You seem to think formation flying is hard, vice like the first thing you do in flight school. What exactly is military formation flying vice any other formation flying? You can drive on a multi-lane highway correct. Congratulations.

But Biggs comment is there, so what are you bitching about. You can hem and haw all you want about what exactly was said about Luke, the point is that something was fucking said about luke. Nothing was said about Rey. We have a FIGHER ACE vouching for Luke. Are you saying Biggs was incompetent and didn't know anything about flying? Are you saying he was lying? No? Then STFU.

Whether you like it or not we have Luke with an established piloting record of some importance who then performs unimpressively even with expert help until the hand of god intervenes, and we have Rey who was given a throwaway line about being a pilot (period) who then shows up the entire galaxy and every snubfighter pilot in via beginners luck. You can quibble all you want, but that's what happened.

Bossing Biggs and Wedge around in his attack run, directing Red Leader where to go in an attempt to save him. When was the last time you even saw the movie?

Yeah, and in the actual movie he was just being a wingman. The whole point of being a wingman is telling your squadron mates what you see that they can't. He never issues an order, he offers advice. Do you think new pilots in a squadron just sit radio silent the whole time?

Rubbish. You're talking about a fantasy version of the movie. A TIE Fighter is chasing Biggs, Biggs is crying out that he can't see it, Luke destroys it. I like it how you just invent that these are 'veterans who were some of the best aces in the galaxy' too. Where was that ever said in the movie? Nowhere. You're literally making shit up to shield Luke from the criticism you heap on Rey.

Ah, well then I guess all of Poe's squadron mates were just cannon fodder too. It doesn't matter one way or the other, the point is that unlike Rey Luke could not do it on his own, and in fact DIDN'T. He needed help, and we know for a fact that without the force and Han Luke would have died. Rey is never helped or rescued by anyone, she accomplishes everything on her own because she is just that fucking good. For no reason.

Yes, let us just ignore that Luke, Wedge, and one Y-Wing, out of thirty Rebel ships, are the only ones to make it back. Let us also ignore Darth Vader's comment about this unknown-to-him-pilot, because it is convenient for your bullshit double-standard argument.

Again, did only 30 year veterans walk of Omaha Beach? Can only force users have the force on their side?

You mean apart from the fact that mid-way through the movie we know she's Force sensitive, and it is confirmed soon after?

That would be great if the scene in question happened midway through the movie. It didn't, so you are out of luck.

You are so completely full of shit - so in your book, if the disembodied voice of Alec Guinness says "use the Force", we can safely assume he used the force, but you won't allow for that in a film where Rey is clearly strong in the Force? Why the fuck not? Do we know nothing about the Force until Episode 7?

Assume? No. You only assume things we don't know for sure. WE FUCKING WATCH EXACTLY THAT HAPPEN. Obi tells Luke to use the force, we see him have his commune moment where he feels/channels/whatever the force, and then we see him use it. It was not just some random background thing. If it was why did Obi wan have to tell him in the first place? Why would anyone need to know about or be trained in the force for anything?

If Luke is anywhere close to Rey's talent, why does he have to be told to and then actually be scene to channel the force to accomplish something far less challenging than dozens of instances in Rey's flying scede and Rey does not. She is just that much better than all the most powerful force users we have thus far scene? Well thats awesome bro, but thats the definition of a Mary Sue.

Stop bullshitting. Who says Biggs is an ace pilot? No one. For fuck's sake, if we include the deleted scenes from the movie, we know Biggs literally just left Tatooine on the day of the battle in orbit. He's not an ace anything.

So rebel pilots are known to be just passable starfighter pilots? Is that what we learn about them throughout the media?

Rey says she's a pilot, twice. Why don't you believe her?

When did I say she wasn't a pilot? I have told you several times not only is she a pilot, she is the best damn pilot we have ever scene. The question is why.

That's a distinction without a difference.

Says the fanboi in denial. You realize we just listed all the differences, correct?

I'm fully justified in using them. There's nothing stupid about it, that Force sensitives have unconscious precognition is an established fact of the setting. If its an established fact of the setting, how can it be stupid?

Cool story bro. For the I don't even know how many nth time, I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS NOT A PILOT. I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN SHE IS THE BEST DAMN PILOT THERE IS. There is no cannon dispute here to bring up the prequels for. The dispute here is that the movie is shitty because it doesn't tell us WHY!!! Neither did TPM, it has the same problem regarding Luke compared to Anakin that the TFA has regarding Rey and Luke. One guy had a developed character arc and the other two do not because they are Mary Sues.

You are so completely full of shit. I just described to you, in exacting detail, what Poe did, and you just have your hand dimissively like an opinionated dickhead and say he just "shot TIEs in open atmosphere". Who are these plenty of people who did anything close to what he did? When did this happen? What movie was it? I'd really love to know when any pilot, anywhere, shot something like five to six TIEs in a matter of seconds while maneuvering then switched to taking out Stormtroopers instantly. I really would.

Wedge, Han, Luke, Lando, etc. They shoot down TIEs over and over again. TIE fighters in the OT are like battle droids in TPM. We are comparing the rarified hieghts of SW pilots. Shooting down TIE fighters is junior varsity to these people. Flying out of the mouths of space monsters, making the kessel run in 14 parsecs, flying down an access shaft of a DS while being shot at then escaping the explosion, THESE are the metrics to compare against.

Poe is up there, His ocillator shooting was not easy but it was ONE gate and no TIEs were after him. Rey flys through dozens of gates in a worse and larger ship with while being shot at the whole time and ALSO shoots down a TIE in a move more impressive than every shot we see Poe make combined. The piloting we see out of Rey in the junk yard is far and away more impressive than anything we see Poe do. I am sorry JJ did you fanbois a disservice, but you are just going to have to deal with it.

She was already out of the wrecked star destroyer when she pulled that move. Your memory is abysmal.

Its all one continuous shoot, they are still in and amongst the wreckage and flying through it up until the last second. Your nitpicking quibbling betrays your insecurity regarding this whole thing.

Wow - you hate that Rey is a good pilot so much you won't even give credit to another scene, your hatred is that intense.

This is where I know you believe I am right too, but are just too proud to admit it

See, this is what I love - you just don't like it. It doesn't matter if its an established fact of the movie, you just don't like it. Nevermind that its objectively no less ridiculous than Luke being a pilot explaining anything of what he did.

Of course I don't like it. Is that a revelation to you? Do you even know what this discussion is about?

And of course Rey is objectively a better pilot, I HAVE TOLD YOU MULTIPLE TIMES SHE IS THE BEST PILOT WE HAVE EVER SEEN. Are you able to read?

No, her being strong in the Force explains everything. You know, established facts of the setting and what not that you don't want to accept because you subjectively don't like them.

They were not established facts at the time of the scene, and why was Luke so challenged at piloting if it works the way you imagine it does?

That you just said this without irony given this is basically the exact fucking thing that Luke did in Episode 4 is hilarious.

[/quote]

You mean Luke was alone when he attacked the DS, and was not going to die when left to his own devices. Which movie was this?

[

What is the distinction between a civilian and combat aviator in a setting where vehicles routinely pull multiple kilometer per second accelerations? Let's have a round of applause for the computers, which I assume are a cut above the kind Google's installing in automatic cars.

I guess you should show all those TIE fighter pilots the on button for these computers. There wives and children will thank you.

[Paolo]

I guess you should show all those TIE fighter pilots the on button for these computers. There wives and children will thank you.

A computer need not be an immunity granting talisman to vastly expand the envelope of maneuver available to the operator.