Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Patroklos]

Interestingly, most of the Rebel pilots who had enemy TIEs on their backs did instantly die once the locked-on TIEs opened fire. As I recall, the only pilots we saw take hits and survive were Red Leader, Wedge, and Luke. And Luke managed to survive more hits than the others.

The accusation was that because Luke dogged any fire whatsoever he is somehow an awesome pilot on the level of Rey. We see plenty of other people dodge fire in that sequence even if they didn't dodge ALL fire. Luke doesn't dodge all incoming fire either, and was about to die due to said incoming fire until someone else helped him.

It was setting up her Force sensitivity. Rey expressed surprise that she lined up the shot; she shouldn't have been able to do it. So, why? A mystery. At least, to her. When the movie confirms that she is, indeed, Force sensitive, the mystery is resolved. (On the other hand, a viewer who has seen the previous moves just thinks "yep, she's Force sensitive.") And, more importantly, when the reveal does occur, it doesn't come out of nowhere. It's easier to accept because we already saw the evidence.

Again, In Luke's case he had to know about the force and intentionally use it. It was not a background thing that just kicked in all on its own. I agree that Anakin has they same background force awesomness that Rey does. My issue is that is stupid, and conflicts with the experience of Luke.

Again this is not a canon fight. The movie shows Rey as an awesome pilot so she is one. We can quibble as to whether Rey was that awesome because of the force or not because we have two cases to compare against that provide opposite conclusions (Anakin vs. Luke) but since the movie doesn't tell us one way or the other anyone is equally right to apply either.

It doesn't matter though because the issue here is whether Rey is a Mary Sue, not whether she is a good pilot naturally or via the force. Either way, just in general but especially when compared to Luke, she is. Anakin was too, that is irrelevant.

Remember: Anakin was the only human able to podrace. A Force sensitive kid, untrained in using the Force, was able to do something no other human (that weren't Force-sensitive, at least) could do because of unconscious use of precognition. Rey achieving something similar (precog absolutely would have helped with lining that shot up) should be no surprise, and it's definitely not unprecedented.

Again, pointing out Anakin who is a Mary Sue to explain Rey is just bolstering the case that Rey is a Mary Sue too.

You didn't like the presentation, and that's fine. But what the movie did was very straightforward and even predictable and with precedent.

TOO straight forward as far as character development goes which is the problem. And again, Rey being a Mary Sue does not mean she does or does not conform with canon. This franshice has lots or running flaws, Mary Sueing their main character has been one through four movies straight now.

No; throwing out canon evidence that weakens your position is an admission of defeat.

I have not thrown out any canon, and canon can not weaken my position as it has no bearing on it. Again, I don't think you realize what this discussion is about. A character can be bad or good regardless as to whether he/she follows canon or not. A character can be a Mary Sue regardless as to whether it follows canon or not (in fact it might be BECAUSE canon is followed). The whole movie itself might be bad or good regardless as to whether it follows canon or not. Canon is irrelevant to the question at hand.

(Hey, we're not allowed to pretend they don't exist any more than you are.)

I am not sure how many times I have to say this, REY IS A GOOD PILOT. The question raised here is HOW is she a good pilot and if the explanation given makes for a good move or a good character.

We don't see anyone else do it as quickly and efficiently as he did. It was actually absurd how effective he was. Everyone else requires a couple seconds to get a target lock and fire, and he's taking them out more quickly than any target lock we've ever seen in the movies. His piloting ability actually is unprecedented in the Star Wars movies.

We see Lando kill four TIEs at Endor I believe. And thats Death Squadron, the best of the Imperial military at its height. We will just have to agree to disagree here, Rey is objectively better via the flying (and shooting) we see. What I saw Poe di was shoot down TIEs that were sitting ducks, which is a JJ directing failure to make a thrilling adversary for Poe to shine in spite of.

Nobody. Rey was out in the open when making that turn. Blue sky and dunes.

Only at the very last moment of that sequence, she sets the whole thing up while maneuvering in and amongst and inside the wrecks.

So, Rey, who was likely familiar with the layout of the wreckage, and who had the Force to assist her (which can make an untrained 10 year old better than any other human pilot, mind you), is more impressive than Poe's flying inside a structure he had never seen the inside of and was aiming at weak points? What Poe did was practically impossible. What Rey did, Lando and Anakin were also able to do (well, again, more impressive for Lando since he didn't know his way around the interior of the second Death Star and had no Force assistance).

How do we know Rey was familiar with the wrechage? How do you know those are even the wrecks she had been to? We see an Executor wreck, it would 1000 scavengers a lifetime each to go over one tenth of that ship. Even if she had been over every inch of every one of those exact wrecks, why does that mean she can fly through them? I have lived in my city my entire life and know its layout backwards and forwards, but I have never looked at it from an 3D aerial perspective just in case I have to barrel roll at jet fighter speads through its buildings.

Also Poe was not aiming at weak points, at least the movie makes no mention of that. He is just blowing up what he sees. However, if they wanted us to think that there were two movies about blowing up Death Stars that showed us exactly how to do that.

And I agree, what Poe is practically impossible, but again we are measuring him against IN UNIVERSE pilots. He is a distant last place compared to what we see Han, Lando, Wedge, and especially Rey do.

[Channel72]

Or that Rey is a tough girl who's grown up in a harsh environment and is capable of defending herself. Like what we see her do.

But (invariably male) internet pisswads don't want to accept that girls can be the tough one, so they mewl and piss that it's "unrealistic".

I think it's not really sexism, but just the fact that people are seeing this movie as adults, and therefore are more prone to be critical and notice certain flaws than with the originals, which they initially saw as children and thus sort of just take for granted at this point.

I admit that the stunts Rey pulled with the Falcon are hard to believe, but really not that much above the level of what we already saw Luke do. It's just that we've had 30 years to "digest" the insane shit Luke pulled (instantly becoming a proficient X-wing pilot, beating Darth Vader with almost no lightsaber training, etc.), so none of it really bothers anybody. We sort of just write it off as standard Hollywood "good-guy hero beginners luck." But with Rey, we're seeing it for the first time through adult eyes, so it bothers a lot of people. In fact, when Rey pulled off the insane stunt with the Millennium Falcon, even the characters themselves express utter shock and disbelief at what Rey just did. Rey herself doesn't even get it. It's pretty clearly supposed to show that something supernatural is guiding Rey, giving her the ability to pull off super-human serendipitous feats instinctively.... you know, the way the Force basically is shown to work throughout Star Wars.

[Galvatron]

Kinda makes you wish they'd added in some trade disputes, doesn't it?

[Batman]

No, not really.

[Vympel]

You know, you don't have to be a force sensitive to have the force be strong with you. Jedi's say that all the time to all sorts of people. You can take it literally if you want to, but coming from Vader it sounds more like "damn, Gods watching over this dude" because he is giving him trouble.

Either way what does that have to do with him surviving? 30 year Army veterans died on Omaha beach while boot privates walked off. Its war.

Its becoming more and more apparent to me that you don't no shit about the setting, because no, you do have to be a force sensitive to have the force be strong with you. At no point, anywhere in the films, does a Jedi or Sith say this about someone who isn't one or doesn't have the potential to be one. I have no idea where the hell you're getting these ideas - you are insanely, almost comically wrong on this point.

Its clear you would rather deny uncontroversial facts of the setting like 'the Force allows you to be better at things than you have any right to be' than accept that Luke being able to fly effectively in the Battle of Yavin is wildly implausible on its face. Omaha Beach analogies? Get the fuck out of here:

LUKE
You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to
use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has
it...I have it...and...my sister has it.

You seem to think formation flying is hard, vice like the first thing you do in flight school. What exactly is military formation flying vice any other formation flying? You can drive on a multi-lane highway correct. Congratulations.

Yes dude, flying in formation with aircraft in battle is about as difficult as driving on a road. Its clear you're beyond all reason - you'll say anything, no matter how fucking idiotic at this point, out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

But Biggs comment is there, so what are you bitching about. You can hem and haw all you want about what exactly was said about Luke, the point is that something was fucking said about luke. Nothing was said about Rey. We have a FIGHER ACE vouching for Luke. Are you saying Biggs was incompetent and didn't know anything about flying? Are you saying he was lying? No? Then STFU.

You're an idiot who can't understand the point being made. The point is that there's no difference between Luke and Rey, save for the one you've made up to defend your glaring, irrational double standard.

Whether you like it or not we have Luke with an established piloting record of some importance who then performs unimpressively even with expert help until the hand of god intervenes, and we have Rey who was given a throwaway line about being a pilot (period) who then shows up the entire galaxy and every snubfighter pilot in via beginners luck. You can quibble all you want, but that's what happened.

The above is all bullshit, of course. Luke actually performed extremely impressively, over and over again, when he had no business doing so. The notion that being a good civilian airspeeder pilot translates into a military setting is absurd on its face.

Yeah, and in the actual movie he was just being a wingman. The whole point of being a wingman is telling your squadron mates what you see that they can't. He never issues an order, he offers advice. Do you think new pilots in a squadron just sit radio silent the whole time?

Actually he was Biggs and Wedge's flight leader when they made their attack run and issues orders to them. Watch the movie.

Ah, well then I guess all of Poe's squadron mates were just cannon fodder too. It doesn't matter one way or the other, the point is that unlike Rey Luke could not do it on his own, and in fact DIDN'T. He needed help, and we know for a fact that without the force and Han Luke would have died. Rey is never helped or rescued by anyone, she accomplishes everything on her own because she is just that fucking good. For no reason.

Couldn't do what on his own? Rey isn't in a situation remotely as difficult as Luke. She avoided pursuit - barely - of two TIE Fighters with the benefit of a ship with a gun turret, and much stronger shields. That's it.

Again, did only 30 year veterans walk of Omaha Beach? Can only force users have the force on their side?

Refer above: re your moronic, totally false comment that "people who aren't force sensitive can be called strong in the Force". I have Darth Vader's statement to himself on my side. What do you have, apart from your own stupid, canonically incorrect opinions?

That would be great if the scene in question happened midway through the movie. It didn't, so you are out of luck.

Why does it have to happen when you say it does?

Assume? No. You only assume things we don't know for sure. WE FUCKING WATCH EXACTLY THAT HAPPEN. Obi tells Luke to use the force, we see him have his commune moment where he feels/channels/whatever the force, and then we see him use it. It was not just some random background thing. If it was why did Obi wan have to tell him in the first place? Why would anyone need to know about or be trained in the force for anything?

If Luke is anywhere close to Rey's talent, why does he have to be told to and then actually be scene to channel the force to accomplish something far less challenging than dozens of instances in Rey's flying scede and Rey does not. She is just that much better than all the most powerful force users we have thus far scene? Well thats awesome bro, but thats the definition of a Mary Sue.

LOL, that's you complaint? Obi-Wan interjected in Luke's case because he insisted on relying on the targeting computer as opposed to using the Force - aka letting go of his conscious self and acting on instinct - the exact words Obi-Wan said to Luke as he placed the helmet on his head. Or don't you remember that either, on top of all your other comically embarassing attempts to make claims about the films? No disembodied voice needed to interject on Rey's behalf because she was doing what came naturally in merely piloting.

So rebel pilots are known to be just passable starfighter pilots? Is that what we learn about them throughout the media?

What 'media'? Fuck 'media'. If we're doing that I can just pull out the Episode 7 ICS and Visual Dictionary and shit on your arguments from a great height in about two seconds. I thought we were talking about the movie?

When did I say she wasn't a pilot? I have told you several times not only is she a pilot, she is the best damn pilot we have ever scene. The question is why.

Why not?

Says the fanboi in denial. You realize we just listed all the differences, correct?

No, I don't. There is no functional difference. Just an arbitrary one that you think for some reason is significant.

Cool story bro. For the I don't even know how many nth time, I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS NOT A PILOT. I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN SHE IS THE BEST DAMN PILOT THERE IS. There is no cannon dispute here to bring up the prequels for. The dispute here is that the movie is shitty because it doesn't tell us WHY!!! Neither did TPM, it has the same problem regarding Luke compared to Anakin that the TFA has regarding Rey and Luke. One guy had a developed character arc and the other two do not because they are Mary Sues.

There is a canon dispute here to bring the prequels in, because your view is that untrained Force sensitives aren't assisted by the Force in tasks like piloting when in actual fact they totally are.

Wedge, Han, Luke, Lando, etc. They shoot down TIEs over and over again. TIE fighters in the OT are like battle droids in TPM. We are comparing the rarified hieghts of SW pilots. Shooting down TIE fighters is junior varsity to these people. Flying out of the mouths of space monsters, making the kessel run in 14 parsecs, flying down an access shaft of a DS while being shot at then escaping the explosion, THESE are the metrics to compare against.

Poe is up there, His ocillator shooting was not easy but it was ONE gate and no TIEs were after him. Rey flys through dozens of gates in a worse and larger ship with while being shot at the whole time and ALSO shoots down a TIE in a move more impressive than every shot we see Poe make combined. The piloting we see out of Rey in the junk yard is far and away more impressive than anything we see Poe do. I am sorry JJ did you fanbois a disservice, but you are just going to have to deal with it.

Neither, Wedge, Han, Luke or Lando ever shot down as many TIEs in those circumstances. You are deliberately playing down the difficulty of what he did, nothing more. And no, Rey's piloting was not that impressive. She flew a straight line through a narrow space and then made a hard turn. oooooh.

Its all one continuous shoot, they are still in and amongst the wreckage and flying through it up until the last second. Your nitpicking quibbling betrays your insecurity regarding this whole thing.

Patently, the only insecurity here is yours. Just look at all the daft things you've said so far. I could assemble quite a list.

This is where I know you believe I am right too, but are just too proud to admit it

Not at all. I really like the movie. I've seen it 3 times. If I hated a cool scene like that, I doubt I'd want to see it more than once.

They were not established facts at the time of the scene, and why was Luke so challenged at piloting if it works the way you imagine it does?

When was luke so challenged at piloting? Was that before or after he was just thrown the keys of an X-Wing?

You mean Luke was alone when he attacked the DS, and was not going to die when left to his own devices. Which movie was this?

Did Rey attack a DS alone? No? Then wtf are you on about?

[Andy Wylde]

Kinda makes you wish they'd added in some trade disputes, doesn't it?

This is funny! A whole whopping 2 lines in a 2 and a half hour movie. Yeah TPM was chock full O trade disputes!

Qui Gon mentions the trade dispute being trivial.

Palpatine talks about the taxation of trade routes being WHAT CAUSED the oppression of the TF on the people of Naboo.


Oh and I should be fair to mention that "the taxation of trade routes" is written in the opening crawl which at the end of the opening crawl we are shown the BLOCKADE in which the Jedi are secretly dispatched to deal with. They weren't there to settle a tax dispute but force the TF into backing down from the blockade.

So with all that in mind, was that too much for you to handle?

But lets just utilize the KISS method for the world of SW.

K-keep
I- it
S-simple
S-stupid

Because invading a planet is just not good enough. The TF should have blown up a planet like the Empire or blow up multiple planets like the First Order. Because blowing up planets is kewl!

[Galvatron]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

[Patroklos]

Vympel, nothing you have said has anything to do whatsoever with disproving Rey is a Mary Sue. You seem intent on pointing at other Mary Sues while telling us she is at least just like them, then can't figure out why that undermines your argument. You seem to REALLY want me to say Luke is a Mary Sue. So lets call him one. How does that in any way help your argument?

JJ is going to make lots of money off of both of us with his gold plated turd. The only difference between us is that I am mining the shit for gold, and you just like the taste of shit.

Lets dispense with your quibbling BS and get down to brass tacks. We have two characters and for this particular point, at the time of the piloting scenes in question (so that what we have to react to the scene when viewing it) we know this about the two.

Rey:
1.) She says she is a pilot, no elaboration.
2.) She single handedly accomplishes her goal in the scene, in fact having to compensate for an incompetent, with zero on screen cues she is using the force or anything else to help her.

Luke:
1.) We are told he is a pilot and is damn good at navigating canyons and shooting small targets while doing so, that elaboration happening to mirror exactly what we see him perform (and fail to accomplish by himself) later.
2.) A pilot, already a member of a Rebel Alliance fighter squadron, vouches for him to his command as a good pilot whose experiance is adequate to the task at hand.
3.) We are told he is a force sensitive, and see him overtly use the force during his scene where he is NOT able to pull off the antics on screen by himself.

Do you dispute any of this?

[Andy Wylde]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

No not really. But I am amazed at how others, I am not signaling you out that seem to bitch about trade negotiations? When there were never any trade negotiations that take place in any of the films. So how could something never shown on screen and barely discussed ruin a movie?

That is what boggles my mind and I try to figure out?

Again it isn't really against you but I have seen trade disputes being thrown around for years when in fact it never even existed in the films.

And I was just commenting on your comment. No hard feelings on my side.

[Andy Wylde]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

Actually I will bow out here so I don't derail this thread.


So please just disregard. Thanks.

[Mad]

The accusation was that because Luke dogged any fire whatsoever he is somehow an awesome pilot on the level of Rey. We see plenty of other people dodge fire in that sequence even if they didn't dodge ALL fire. Luke doesn't dodge all incoming fire either, and was about to die due to said incoming fire until someone else helped him.

I was specifically referring to locked on shots that killed the others in a single volley. Only the three mentioned pilots were shown to survive a volley without exploding outright: Red Leader (who presumably has the most experience), Wedge (who has the aptitude to eventually be Red Leader during RotJ), and Luke, the new guy (and who becomes Rogue Leader).

How did Luke manage that more than once when over 25 others couldn't? Luke's damage was even less severe than the others. Red Leader's engine was too damaged to escape. Wedge had to bail. And Luke, even after taking those hits, still had an operable ship.

Again, In Luke's case he had to know about the force and intentionally use it. It was not a background thing that just kicked in all on its own. I agree that Anakin has they same background force awesomness that Rey does. My issue is that is stupid, and conflicts with the experience of Luke.

You just don't like it. Doesn't change the fact that there is precedent.

Also, Leia may have also unconsciously tapped into the Force. "Somehow, [she's] always known" on some level her relationship to Luke (though it would also seem she dismissed that intuition as absurd).

So there is evidence that 2 out of the 3 untrained Force-sensitives we know of (all Skywalkers, incidentally) we've seen in the first 6 movies were using it unconsciously on some level. Why didn't Luke? Who says he didn't? It's readily apparent that Owen Lars would have actively dismissed any "coincidences" that occurred.

Also, Vader mentioned that "the Force is strong" with Luke while trying to get a lock on him. And that was before Luke was intentionally tapping into it (he hadn't shut his targeting computer off yet). In addition, while Vader was having much more trouble tagging Luke than he had with any other target, Luke was focusing on using the Force to hit the exhaust port, not to evade Vader. So it could very well be 3 out of 3.

Again this is not a canon fight. The movie shows Rey as an awesome pilot so she is one. We can quibble as to whether Rey was that awesome because of the force or not because we have two cases to compare against that provide opposite conclusions (Anakin vs. Luke) but since the movie doesn't tell us one way or the other anyone is equally right to apply either.

I see no evidence that we should apply the opposite conclusion to Luke. Anakin is more drastic than Luke, but Luke is quite exceptional on his own.

It doesn't matter though because the issue here is whether Rey is a Mary Sue, not whether she is a good pilot naturally or via the force. Either way, just in general but especially when compared to Luke, she is. Anakin was too, that is irrelevant.

And, to an extent, so is Luke "I could hit that exhaust port blindfolded" Skywalker. Yes, Rey is the biggest Mary Sue manifestation yet (Anakin had more flaws than Luke, but rarely needed help; Luke had less flaws than Anakin, but needed more help), but such things are typical in Star Wars. it's a criticism that applies to all the movies. To not have it might feel 'wrong" somehow. I will agree that Rey should have been toned down a tad and/or should have showed everyone else up less. (Honestly, there's no telling at this point whether this is an intentional plot point for later or not. Perhaps she's meant to follow Anakin's path while a redeemed Ben has to stop her. Or, it could be as straightforward as we see. Abrams has done both.)

Even so, as Luke "Of course I'll be able to pull out at that speed; you mean you can't?" Skywalker went on, he needed less help. He outright rejects the advice of Jedi Masters Yoda and Obi-Wan and is proven correct. Without ever being shown receiving melee weapon training, he's able to overpower Vader--who already was one of the best--at Endor. What he accomplished was something that even Obi-Wan (who was was proficient as evidenced by his handling of Grievous) couldn't do: Kenobi had to rely on psychological manipulation and positioning to defeat Vader while Luke "Those Masters who have known and fought these Sith before don't know what they're talking about" Skywalker had neither.

Let's also not forget that Luke "Cocky" Skywalker took down the same number of TIEs (2) as Han did when escaping the Death Star.

We see Lando kill four TIEs at Endor I believe. And thats Death Squadron, the best of the Imperial military at its height. We will just have to agree to disagree here, Rey is objectively better via the flying (and shooting) we see. What I saw Poe di was shoot down TIEs that were sitting ducks, which is a JJ directing failure to make a thrilling adversary for Poe to shine in spite of.

The way Poe was maneuvering, it doesn't really matter if they were sitting ducks or not: it was the rate at which he was bringing them into view, lining up the shots, and downing them that was impressive. It's something we've never seen done before in Star Wars.

Only at the very last moment of that sequence, she sets the whole thing up while maneuvering in and amongst and inside the wrecks.

She gets a nice head start coming out of the wreckage, but she starts the final maneuver out in the open. There was nothing to set up while inside the wreckage, because there is no room to maneuver. When watching the movie, I had the impression she was hoping to lose the fighters inside the wreckage. Nothing I saw gave any indication that he maneuver after exiting was anything other than a last-ditch effort.

How do we know Rey was familiar with the wrechage? How do you know those are even the wrecks she had been to? We see an Executor wreck, it would 1000 scavengers a lifetime each to go over one tenth of that ship.

It's highly implausible that anyone would fly into something not knowing if there was a way out. A dead end would end your trip real quick, now, wouldn't it?

Also Poe was not aiming at weak points, at least the movie makes no mention of that. He is just blowing up what he sees.

Regardless, he's managing to fire at things he sees in an impossible situation.

And I agree, what Poe is practically impossible, but again we are measuring him against IN UNIVERSE pilots. He is a distant last place compared to what we see Han, Lando, Wedge, and especially Rey do.

No, I still found what Poe did far more impressive than what Rey did. The overall space was much tighter, and he had to exit through the same crack he entered in. What Rey did was closer to what Lando did (I'm sure he was used to flying the Falcon through tight spaces, right?), but at least she had the Force while Lando didn't.

[Patroklos]

You agree Rey is a Mary Sue. Argument over.

So how do we know Wedge, Lando and maybe even Han are not force users? Apparently we are supposed to divine Rey is a force user only because she is a good pilot (remember, people who have never seen a star wars movie are watching this thing). Han was in the presence of Obi and he said nothing, so maybe he is out. Then again Luke was on the Death Star and Vader didn't sense him. Hell, he is outright torturing Leia and Vader doesn't notice a thing. We see Lando on screen momentarily with Luke in the DSII briefing scene but we don't know Luke can sense other force users, he is told about Leia.

So according to you and Vympel, we are supposed to know Rey is a Jedi because she pilots well. We are supposed to assume this because it was the case with Anakin where it is outright said by the Jedis present. We could say we should know it because she was a hayseed AND a polot, but Vympel just wasted so many posts telling us her declaring herself pilot is good enough to explain everything we see.

So why should we not assume every good pilot we see is force sensitive? Prove me Poe is not a force sensitive, given the logic you just put forth as to why we should assume Rey is.

[Elfdart]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

No not really. But I am amazed at how others, I am not signaling you out that seem to bitch about trade negotiations? When there were never any trade negotiations that take place in any of the films. So how could something never shown on screen and barely discussed ruin a movie?

That is what boggles my mind and I try to figure out?

Again it isn't really against you but I have seen trade disputes being thrown around for years when in fact it never even existed in the films.

And I was just commenting on your comment. No hard feelings on my side.

Don't worry, Galvatron probably thinks Red River is all about beef prices.

[Andy Wylde]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

No not really. But I am amazed at how others, I am not signaling you out that seem to bitch about trade negotiations? When there were never any trade negotiations that take place in any of the films. So how could something never shown on screen and barely discussed ruin a movie?

That is what boggles my mind and I try to figure out?

Again it isn't really against you but I have seen trade disputes being thrown around for years when in fact it never even existed in the films.

And I was just commenting on your comment. No hard feelings on my side.

Don't worry, Galvatron probably thinks Red River is all about beef prices.

But in all seriousness I wasn't trying to get on his case more or less just point out all the whining about trade disputes for years on end that really in and of itself never really play any part of the film(s) whatsoever. And with this new film this is bringing up all the old complaints that were lame and old years ago.

[Mad]

So how do we know Wedge, Lando and maybe even Han are not force users? Apparently we are supposed to divine Rey is a force user only because she is a good pilot (remember, people who have never seen a star wars movie are watching this thing). Han was in the presence of Obi and he said nothing, so maybe he is out. Then again Luke was on the Death Star and Vader didn't sense him. Hell, he is outright torturing Leia and Vader doesn't notice a thing. We see Lando on screen momentarily with Luke in the DSII briefing scene but we don't know Luke can sense other force users, he is told about Leia.

After Rey performed the maneuver, she expressed astonishment at what had just happened. She realized it was something she shouldn't have been able to do. Like I said before, the scene is designed to set up the mystery for her (and, incidentally, any who haven't seen the prior movies): how was this possible? It's answered once she realizes she can intentionally tap into the Force.

If they did it the same way it was done with Luke, then people would be complaining about another thing in it that is ripped straight from ANH. Instead, they mix things up a bit and now it isn't close enough to ANH?

I mean, really, it's a common trope: the hero accidentally discovers a manifestation of a latent ability but doesn't understand its significance until later. Is it really that difficult to comprehend? Why are you railing on the order of events so hard?

So according to you and Vympel, we are supposed to know Rey is a Jedi because she pilots well. We are supposed to assume this because it was the case with Anakin where it is outright said by the Jedis present. We could say we should know it because she was a hayseed AND a polot, but Vympel just wasted so many posts telling us her declaring herself pilot is good enough to explain everything we see.

No, that isn't the argument at all. It's her reaction to doing it. It's not like she just blew it off as a piece of cake and all part of the plan.

So why should we not assume every good pilot we see is force sensitive? Prove me Poe is not a force sensitive, given the logic you just put forth as to why we should assume Rey is.

We don't know that he isn't. But he already has the reputation of being the Resistance's "most daring pilot" so having him be Force sensitive isn't required to explain his performance. Also, the movie intentionally foreshadows Rey's revelation, but is--at best--ambiguous about Poe. As far as we know, he isn't Force sensitive but nobody would be surprised if it turned out that he is.

[Solauren]

Just got home from it.

Did I just watch the good elements of the EU merged into a single movie? I think I did......

[biostem]

Just got home from it.

Did I just watch the good elements of the EU merged into a single movie? I think I did......

Meh... I liked Thrawn, and I didn't see him in there. I also like all the different TIE variants, and while we got a shiny black & red color scheme, the 2-seater and regular fighter versions apparently look exactly alike.

[Patroklos]

After Rey performed the maneuver, she expressed astonishment at what had just happened. She realized it was something she shouldn't have been able to do. Like I said before, the scene is designed to set up the mystery for her (and, incidentally, any who haven't seen the prior movies): how was this possible? It's answered once she realizes she can intentionally tap into the Force.

Every Rebel who didn't die on the Death Star run was surprised they pulled it off. I imagine the Imperials would have been equally surprised had they been alive to realize what happened. All of those people were not boot newbies. You can be really good and still have the odds staked against you, it doesn't mean the force/the divine intervened on your behalf.

Unless you think all those privates who walked of Omaha beach were force sensitive?

If they did it the same way it was done with Luke, then people would be complaining about another thing in it that is ripped straight from ANH. Instead, they mix things up a bit and now it isn't close enough to ANH?

No. I'd be doing what I am doing now, which is wondering why we have another hayseed pilot instead of a new and interesting character. At least in Luke's case being an alright barely surviving pilot was critical to the plot. There was no need to have Rey pilot anything. They could have found Han on the planet, and HE being the established awesome pilot who knows the Falcon like the back of his hand made the escape for instance. But Rey has to everything...

I mean, really, it's a common trope: the hero accidentally discovers a manifestation of a latent ability but doesn't understand its significance until later. Is it really that difficult to comprehend? Why are you railing on the order of events so hard?

It is a common trope, and it might of flown under the radar if it was set up correctly and it was the ONLY hero trope Rey had. Instead its number four on the laundry list of awesomeness tucked in between engineering savant and expert marksmen on her firs try.

Do you remember when John McClain hat to stop slaughtering enemies with a machine gun and sad down and hacked the mainframe to open the security doors, just after he listened and understood the mooks talk German to learn the code to access the computer, which was just before he flew the helicopter to get to the roof of the building, which was just before he rewired the elevator to drop Hans to his death, which was just before he killed angry brother guy with a broadsword, which was after he used Gods divine light to convince the safe cracking dude to throw himself off a building? Yeah. me neither. In fact subverting these tropes outside the guns ablazing baddass was part of each of the movies (his mystification with hacking in that horrible one withe Apple/PC dude. Needing Zeus for some electrical stuff in the NYC one, etc.).

As has been mentioned over and over again this is ONE point in her overall Mary Suedom, you and others not being able to admit this one element alone is actually quite damning all on its own. I am quite willing to move past this one element (we were previously discussing her bo awesomeness and her sword fighting awesomeness) because it is only one piece of evidence in this case. It is YOU, and those akin to you, who feel the need to die on this hill.

I am not sure why you are fighting this, you agree she is a Mary Sue.

No, that isn't the argument at all. It's her reaction to doing it. It's not like she just blew it off as a piece of cake and all part of the plan.

Its may not be your argument, but you walking into an ongoing conversation.

I can't think of any piece of piloting awesomeness that is just "blown off." Lando seems pretty surprised and happy when he escapes the exploding DS. Luke seems pretty happy when he blows up the DS, the welcome back hanger scene and medal ceremony and all that (which includes Leia and Luke). They throw a damn parade when Anakin blows up the droid contol ship. They all looked pretty ominous when avoiding asteroids and escaping a space monster at Hoth, its pretty clear that none of them really expected to get out of that alive.

The closest we get to someone not reacting like Rey is Han, but he plays it so well that the audience knows its FALSE bravado, that he is putting on airs as the macho man's man. Its part of his character, but we see through it at times, which adds to the tension.

This may surprise you, but soldiers coming back from war regardless of how experienced and proficient at their job they are are pretty thankful when they get home. Its never a sure thing. This goes for all competitive win/lose endeavors. Or have you seen a super bowl winning team just walk off the field like winning was not thang?

We don't know that he isn't. But he already has the reputation of being the Resistance's "most daring pilot" so having him be Force sensitive isn't required to explain his performance. Also, the movie intentionally foreshadows Rey's revelation, but is--at best--ambiguous about Poe. As far as we know, he isn't Force sensitive but nobody would be surprised if it turned out that he is.

Before this scene where we are supposed to assume she is a force sensitive to explain it, where did they foreshadow she is a force sensitive?

[Channel72]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

No not really. But I am amazed at how others, I am not signaling you out that seem to bitch about trade negotiations? When there were never any trade negotiations that take place in any of the films. So how could something never shown on screen and barely discussed ruin a movie?

It's called exaggeration for the sake of comedic effect. TPM doesn't actually show Trade Negotiations, but the point is the movie is so bland, and it features enough banal political dialogue and Senate meetings to make jokes at its expense.

[Channel72]

You agree Rey is a Mary Sue. Argument over.

Since the entire point of all these lines of argumentation is to show that Luke is basically in the same boat, this isn't some kind of polemic victory for you here. The point is that Rey might be a "Mary Sue", but hey - "that's Stars Wars for you". (Insert sad trombone?)

So according to you and Vympel, we are supposed to know Rey is a Jedi because she pilots well.

Actually we're pretty much not supposed to know Rey is a force user at first. There was even something of an intentional campaign of misdirection going on, what with all the promotional posters that show Finn holding a lightsaber. Abrams intentionally played with audience expectations, trying to make us guess who the force user in the movie would be. By the first act, it seemed like it was pretty obviously Rey. Just because they show her doing crazy pilot shit before they officially confirm she's a force user doesn't mean much - it's just the way the film is written and doesn't amount to much of a criticism.

To me, at least, it was obvious she was a latent Jedi after she pulled off that crazy stunt with the Falcon - not because of the stunt itself, but because the dialogue directly after strongly indicated something weird was going on. Finn was shocked and was like "how the fuck did you do that!???" And Rey was like "I don't know! I don't know how I did it!" To me that was pretty obviously the screenwriter going "cough force user cough".

So why should we not assume every good pilot we see is force sensitive? Prove me Poe is not a force sensitive, given the logic you just put forth as to why we should assume Rey is.

It's not just being a good pilot - the common theme here is being "naturally" skilled at things without apparently having been trained to do so, or appearing to be inexplicably "lucky" for no reason. This pretty much sums up Luke and Rey*. Poe, on the other hand, is presumably a career pilot with years of professional experience.

* It also sums up basically every Hollywood protagonist, but whatever. I think Star Wars is basically one of the only franchises that created a cosmic constant that actually causes screenwriting crutches like character shields and Mary Suism.

[Patroklos]

Since the entire point of all these lines of argumentation is to show that Luke is basically in the same boat, this isn't some kind of polemic victory for you here. The point is that Rey might be a "Mary Sue", but hey - "that's Stars Wars for you". (Insert sad trombone?)

Even if you want to call Luke a Mary Sue too, we have a laundry list of things brought up to show that he is not nearly as wanked out as Rey, and that ANH provides far more character building as to why he can do what he can do and explicitly shows us the force influencing him. Its not the same.

And yeah, SW has some bad habits. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be called out as such.

It's not just being a good pilot - the common theme here is being "naturally" skilled at things without apparently having been trained to do so, or appearing to be inexplicably "lucky" for no reason. This pretty much sums up Luke and Rey. Poe, on the other hand, is presumably a career pilot with years of professional experience.

What do we see Luke do that is exceptional before we are told he is force sensitive? What do we see Anakin do that is exceptional before we are told he is force sensitive?

No SW movie has relied on the audience to assume a force sensitivity to explain basic plot points. This isn't The Usual Suspects, I shouldn't have to sit in confusion during an adventure movie until over half way through and then apply the knowledge I learned to unfuck the plot up until then (even The Usual Suspects had a flash back for this very reason).

[Channel72]

- duplicate

[Channel72]

What do we see Luke do that is exceptional before we are told he is force sensitive? What do we see Anakin do that is exceptional before we are told he is force sensitive?

So... since I'm guessing that's a rhetorical question, am I correct that your criticism here is basically that TFA fails because they need to explicitly reveal a character as a force user before they depict this character doing force-user shit? Because that's the only criticism I can extract from your rhetorical question here.

Even if you want to call Luke a Mary Sue too, we have a laundry list of things brought up to show that he is not nearly as wanked out as Rey, and that ANH provides far more character building as to why he can do what he can do and explicitly shows us the force influencing him. Its not the same.

Yeah, I can agree that they went a bit too far with Rey. I just don't think it amounts to as much as you do, since Rey is more or less Luke 2.0 for 2015.

[Terralthra]

Lando, Wedge, an A-Wing and a Y-Wing pilot, and a few TIE fighter pilots as well, fly through the superstructure of the DSII. It's depicted as difficult, but not superhuman.

[Mad]

Every Rebel who didn't die on the Death Star run was surprised they pulled it off. I imagine the Imperials would have been equally surprised had they been alive to realize what happened. All of those people were not boot newbies. You can be really good and still have the odds staked against you, it doesn't mean the force/the divine intervened on your behalf.

Unless you think all those privates who walked of Omaha beach were force sensitive?

The dialog seemed crafted to imply more than that. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact quote handy and the novelization gives somewhat different dialog. I got the very distinct impression that something more than just her piloting ability was going on.

(That said, the novelization does have some other tidbits from that scene: she's has been piloting various craft "almost since she could walk." Also, it explicitly stated that she knew the wreckage of the SSD wreckage intimately. In addition, she thought up the maneuver in question and prepared for it just before she made the last turn out of the wreckage.)

No. I'd be doing what I am doing now, which is wondering why we have another hayseed pilot instead of a new and interesting character. At least in Luke's case being an alright barely surviving pilot was critical to the plot. There was no need to have Rey pilot anything. They could have found Han on the planet, and HE being the established awesome pilot who knows the Falcon like the back of his hand made the escape for instance. But Rey has to everything...

It's obviously to make you think that she's a Skywalker. She has the main skills that Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker were known for: piloting and mechanical aptitude. We're just supposed to be asking whether she's Luke's or Leia's. (Her ability to use a blaster could be a reference to Leia's marksmanship.)

(Going even further: she wears a white outfit somewhat reminiscent of what Luke wore in ANH. At the end of the movie, she's wearing a grey outfit, similar to how Luke wore grey throughout ESB. There's always the chance of a misdirect, but the parallels are obvious and there are too many of them for them to all be unintentional.)

It is a common trope, and it might of flown under the radar if it was set up correctly and it was the ONLY hero trope Rey had. Instead its number four on the laundry list of awesomeness tucked in between engineering savant and expert marksmen on her firs try.

Yeah, Anakin and Luke should have been toned back, too, yes? They were so unbelievable! Luke's so awesome that Red Leader gave up his own wingmen (2 and 3: Wedge and Biggs) and gave them to Luke. After all, the farmboy from a dust ball said he could hit it, so he gets to make the run on his first mission. And brushing off Jedi Masters and going off his own path? What does he know?

As has been mentioned over and over again this is ONE point in her overall Mary Suedom, you and others not being able to admit this one element alone is actually quite damning all on its own. I am quite willing to move past this one element (we were previously discussing her bo awesomeness and her sword fighting awesomeness) because it is only one piece of evidence in this case. It is YOU, and those akin to you, who feel the need to die on this hill.

Actually, there's nothing wrong with any one element. They're all easily explainable all by themselves.

• Fighting unarmed attackers off with a staff? Already addressed: simply having a weapon helps a lot, and she's probably had to use it before.
• Piloting? She's been flying all her life, and her maneuver was Force-assisted (precedent set in TPM, implied in dialog in TFA)
• Mechanically adept? She's a scavenger; fixing things before selling them helps them to sell better.
• Able to use a lightsaber? Already established that she has melee weapon experience, and already established that her opponent was injured (and, in the novelization, mentally shaken)
• Able to use a blaster? Okay, you got me there.

Yes, the movie is pushing a bit hard that she has all these Skywalker traits. It's almost like the movie wants us to think she's a Skywalker. Like, that her relationships to the Skywalkers might be a big plot point in the next movie.

Its may not be your argument, but you walking into an ongoing conversation.

You attributed it to me as well. But it's not my argument. What's your point?

I can't think of any piece of piloting awesomeness that is just "blown off."

The difference is that for them (except young Anakin), winning was within the realm of possibility. Rey acknowledged that her maneuver was something that never, ever should have worked. The movie is practically beating you over the head with it, why are you denying it?

Before this scene where we are supposed to assume she is a force sensitive to explain it, where did they foreshadow she is a force sensitive?

No, the first hint is Rey's reaction to Finn afterwards. it's setting up the mystery for Rey and any who have not seen a Star Wars movie in their life.