Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Adam Reynolds]

Well, the name of Andy Serkis's character has been revealed on StarWars.com: It's Supreme Leader Snoke! StarWars.com

I still can't decide if that is better or worse than Uber. Who came up with Snoke?

[The Romulan Republic]

Hey, its no worse than Savage Oppress.

But yeah, I pretty much cringe whenever I read "Snoke".

[Galvatron]

No worse than Dooku.

[Joun_Lord]

Savage Oppress is a badass villain name and Dooku sounds a bit silly but not terrible.

Snoke..........just sounds.......bad. The first thing it made me think of was Snooky, the Snuke, then Snork, then I stopped thinking before my mind came up with worse things.

Uber wasn't any better but it certainly sounded more villainous.

I have to wonder though, why da fuck is Evil Emperor Snork a mo-cap character? They seem to be showing the Empire as far more diverse with a lesbian woman in the new EU that I care for as much as the New 52, Finn the Stormtrooper or as the internet "cleverly" named him "Blacktrooper" but surely the Empire wouldn't be ran by an alien?

Maybe he ain't an alien but really, really, oh god a fucking walking corpse, really old Palpatine style and are just going to CG Andy rather then forcing him to undergo several hours of make-up daily.

I just don't see why they can't not mo-cap Serkis yet fucking again. Dude is a good actor without fucking dots on his face. He was great as Klaue in Ultron even if his name did sound like a Inspector Gadget villain. Could be the Almighty Imperial Overlord without freaking CGing him.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is odd that they're making the Empire more diverse since Disney took over. Its like they think "We have to make the Empire diverse or people will think we're racist/sexist/etc." without taking into account the fact that the Empire are villains whose nature is partly being interstellar Nazis. Its not bigoted to have bigoted characters.

Then again, I suppose the new bad guys could be different. A lot can happen in a few decades.

[The Romulan Republic]

To be clear, I am not objecting to Star Wars being more diverse. It just seems odd to add that diversity in the Empire. However, I suppose even the Empire can't be all white human men.

[Elfdart]

Savage Oppress is a badass villain name and Dooku sounds a bit silly but not terrible.

Snoke..........just sounds.......bad. The first thing it made me think of was Snooky, the Snuke, then Snork, then I stopped thinking before my mind came up with worse things.

Uber wasn't any better but it certainly sounded more villainous.

I have to wonder though, why da fuck is Evil Emperor Snork a mo-cap character? They seem to be showing the Empire as far more diverse with a lesbian woman in the new EU that I care for as much as the New 52, Finn the Stormtrooper or as the internet "cleverly" named him "Blacktrooper" but surely the Empire wouldn't be ran by an alien?

Maybe he ain't an alien but really, really, oh god a fucking walking corpse, really old Palpatine style and are just going to CG Andy rather then forcing him to undergo several hours of make-up daily.

I just don't see why they can't not mo-cap Serkis yet fucking again. Dude is a good actor without fucking dots on his face. He was great as Klaue in Ultron even if his name did sound like a Inspector Gadget villain. Could be the Almighty Imperial Overlord without freaking CGing him.

It reminds of George Carlin's idea of having a pope named Corky.

[Joun_Lord]

It is odd that they're making the Empire more diverse since Disney took over. Its like they think "We have to make the Empire diverse or people will think we're racist/sexist/etc." without taking into account the fact that the Empire are villains whose nature is partly being interstellar Nazis. Its not bigoted to have bigoted characters.

Then again, I suppose the new bad guys could be different. A lot can happen in a few decades.

I like that they are showing the Empire as more diverse. They are the villains but not having 1 dimensional cardboard cut-outs for villains makes the whole universe seem real. Like with Star Trek and the 1 note races, Klingons are ALL warriors and obsessed with honor, ALL Ferengi are greedy profit driven pretty racist caricatures, the Vulcans are ALL emotionless logical supermen, and so on with few exceptions like Rom and those Vulcans in ENT who I think turned out to be evil.

Of course its the same problems for both series, writers took what little bit of info we had on the various groups and ran with it to apply it to all of that race/group. With the Klingons in TOS we only see warriors who care about honor so we get the entire Klingon race honor obsessed warriors. The Romulans were sneaky bastards with a dorky haircut in Balance of Terror so all Romulans are sneaky bastards with a dorky haircut. The Imperials in ANH are all white british guys with one guy seeming kinda bigoted by calling Chewie a "thing", and considering Chewie wasn't cosplaying as The Thing From Another World it might have either been bigotry or the dude just had never saw a Wookiee before, so all the Imperials are bigoted white british guys.

But a a galaxy spanning organization such the Empire, even if bigoted, would have to recruit more then white british males. Even the Nazi's, who were freaking Nazis, recruited or shanghaied people who weren't the Aryan ideal.

And not all the people in the Empire are going to be bad guys. The Empire is bad, blowing up planets full of people kinda seals the deal for that, but not all the people are. Thats I think what we are getting with Finn, a good man in a bad group. But if hack sci-fi writers who wrote most the SW old EU and most of canon Trek had their way Finn wouldn't exist.

Still, Snuke just bugs me the wrong way and it ain't just his name. The early Empire might have had non-human high ranking leaders, that blue horned dude with the nifty hat and that really pale bald chick that I'm sure wasn't human, were I think both supposed to be pretty high in the government. However both were also carry-overs from the Republic like the pretty multicultural Senate and didn't seem to be around during the OT (might have been some EU material I missed after I got disgusted by SW EU and told it to go fuck itself, we are breaking up, its not me, its you, you suck, you make even the worst parts of the movies seem well written and enjoyable in comparison, my argument when people put down the Prequels is to go read the EU and then come talk to me about bad Star Wars).

[Galvatron]

Of all my problems with George Lucas, the prequels, etc., the names he chose were never on the list. I never bitched about the film titles either. They were simply unimportant details to me.

If Andy Serkis brings his A game and does justice to the character, I could give a rat's ass if his name is Snoke. Frankly, it reminds me of Snape more than anything and that's not a bad thing.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is odd that they're making the Empire more diverse since Disney took over. Its like they think "We have to make the Empire diverse or people will think we're racist/sexist/etc." without taking into account the fact that the Empire are villains whose nature is partly being interstellar Nazis. Its not bigoted to have bigoted characters.

Then again, I suppose the new bad guys could be different. A lot can happen in a few decades.

I like that they are showing the Empire as more diverse. They are the villains but not having 1 dimensional cardboard cut-outs for villains makes the whole universe seem real. Like with Star Trek and the 1 note races, Klingons are ALL warriors and obsessed with honor, ALL Ferengi are greedy profit driven pretty racist caricatures, the Vulcans are ALL emotionless logical supermen, and so on with few exceptions like Rom and those Vulcans in ENT who I think turned out to be evil.

Well, I was talking diverse in terms of race/gender/sexual orientation/etc., not ideology/motivations/character. Though I suppose the two are connected. Some Imperial officials might be more open to letting people from different backgrounds serve, and those from such backgrounds would presumably have motives other than white human male supremacy.

Of course its the same problems for both series, writers took what little bit of info we had on the various groups and ran with it to apply it to all of that race/group. With the Klingons in TOS we only see warriors who care about honor so we get the entire Klingon race honor obsessed warriors. The Romulans were sneaky bastards with a dorky haircut in Balance of Terror so all Romulans are sneaky bastards with a dorky haircut. The Imperials in ANH are all white british guys with one guy seeming kinda bigoted by calling Chewie a "thing", and considering Chewie wasn't cosplaying as The Thing From Another World it might have either been bigotry or the dude just had never saw a Wookiee before, so all the Imperials are bigoted white british guys.

No comment.

But a a galaxy spanning organization such the Empire, even if bigoted, would have to recruit more then white british males. Even the Nazi's, who were freaking Nazis, recruited or shanghaied people who weren't the Aryan ideal.

Interesting points. Though the Empire can just clone soldiers rather than recruiting them if it wants to.

And not all the people in the Empire are going to be bad guys. The Empire is bad, blowing up planets full of people kinda seals the deal for that, but not all the people are. Thats I think what we are getting with Finn, a good man in a bad group. But if hack sci-fi writers who wrote most the SW old EU and most of canon Trek had their way Finn wouldn't exist.

The Empire is a horrific organization, so its hard to see how any good person could willingly serve them. And yet, their would be people who are just indoctrinated (or coerced) and don't really support the darker aspects of Imperial ideology.

Still, Snuke just bugs me the wrong way and it ain't just his name. The early Empire might have had non-human high ranking leaders, that blue horned dude with the nifty hat and that really pale bald chick that I'm sure wasn't human, were I think both supposed to be pretty high in the government. However both were also carry-overs from the Republic like the pretty multicultural Senate and didn't seem to be around during the OT (might have been some EU material I missed after I got disgusted by SW EU and told it to go fuck itself, we are breaking up, its not me, its you, you suck, you make even the worst parts of the movies seem well written and enjoyable in comparison, my argument when people put down the Prequels is to go read the EU and then come talk to me about bad Star Wars).

Truth be told, I'm glad that a lot of the EU is non-canon now.

[Joun_Lord]

Well, I was talking diverse in terms of race/gender/sexual orientation/etc., not ideology/motivations/character. Though I suppose the two are connected. Some Imperial officials might be more open to letting people from different backgrounds serve, and those from such backgrounds would presumably have motives other than white human male supremacy.

Yeah I originally speaking only of race/gender/things they like to bang and then got some wires crossed and got more into characterization but mostly my points still stand. The Empire not just being a bunch of white human dudes is more realistic and can hopefully be part of showing the Empire as more nuanced the the cardboard villains we tend to get.

Interesting points. Though the Empire can just clone soldiers rather than recruiting them if it wants to.

Sure but one of the points of recruiting is to get people invested in the nation. If the Empire just has clone soldiers to fight, how are alot of people invested in the fighting, why would they care much? But if its Joe Average Imperial Citizen out there on the front line with all his buddies, people have more reason to care, more reason to get emotionally involved in the fighting. Those aren't just faceless nobodies, those are men (and presumably women) with families, friends, communities, whole groups of people that care about them. How are those people going to feel if its Rebels fighting clones compared to Rebels fighting Trooper Joe?

The Empire is a horrific organization, so its hard to see how any good person could willingly serve them. And yet, their would be people who are just indoctrinated (or coerced) and don't really support the darker aspects of Imperial ideology.

Part of it might be indoctrination. For others it might be they aren't aware of the darker parts of the Empire. The Empire is a big place, any atrocities can be in some remote area of nowhere that nobody has heard of. The old EU has the Empire be bombastic in its atrocities, sucking planets dry of their water to teach people lessons, doing the Mario butt-stomp with Victory Star Destroyers on protestors, just really heavy handed shit. More likely anything bad the Empire does is low key, shit like killing Beru and Owen and the Jawas. Its easy for people to not know about that sort of terrible things or even just ignore it. Even the destruction of Endor can be rationalized as the destruction of a enemy planet, a planet who's leaders were in full rebellion, aiding and supplied the Rebellion that shortly afterwards killed over a million Imperial soldiers.

I'm sure there are parallels to the horrific atrocities that were the Nazi concentration camps. Some might not have known about it or know but thought it was only bad people that went, didn't know that 6 million Jews (and 6 million other people nobody seems to give a shit about, but thats just a little pet peeve of mine) went there to their deaths.

Nobody but the most rabid anti-German idiot would accuse all the German people during WWII of being bad people and if they did so here I'm sure Thanas would slap their shit just for dripping their stupid all over our nice new carpets.

Truth be told, I'm glad that a lot of the EU is non-canon now.

You and me both. I had alot of good memories of the EU but in the end the bad far outweighed the good and while I was slightly sad to see it go it was ultimately for the best if for nothing else then no more Waru and no more fucking wannabe Klingon Mand'ohs.

[bilateralrope]

Interesting points. Though the Empire can just clone soldiers rather than recruiting them if it wants to.

Can they ?

After the clone wars cartoon, the only explanation for Order 66 I can see is that the chip in every clones head overrode their free will when the order was given. We don't know how the clones reacted when they got their free will back*, but I can't see them being happy about it. Angry clones destroying the infrastructure on Kamino is one way that the Empire might have lost the ability to clone new soldiers.

Maybe the Rebellion attacked Kamino. Maybe the infrastructure decayed because the Empire didn't want clones. Maybe Kamino is not Imperial territory by the time of this movie. I doubt that's all the possible reasons why cloning might no longer be available to the Empire. So we simply don't know for sure if cloning is an option for them.

*All we know is that some of the named clones are going to show up in Rebels, look like they are willing to fight against the Empire, and have scars suggesting that the chips have been removed.

[The Romulan Republic]

While the Clone Wars era clone soldiers might be pissed over being made to turn against their Jedi comrades, the Empire could just churn out new clones and indoctrinate them. And the clones as a whole can't have objected that much because when the Empire was founded, they were pretty much the only troops the Empire had. They could have toppled Palpatine if they'd really wanted to as group.

As for Kamino, while it might not be Imperial-held by Episode VII, I doubt the Empire at its height couldn't control it. And I very much doubt that it was the only place that could make clone troops.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, okay, the Empire would have had local forces to fall back on without the clones. But I wouldn't want to rely on local forces to control a galaxy and fight a civil war.

[Pelranius]

Savage Oppress is a badass villain name and Dooku sounds a bit silly but not terrible.



Maybe he ain't an alien but really, really, oh god a fucking walking corpse, really old Palpatine style and are just going to CG Andy rather then forcing him to undergo several hours of make-up daily.

I just don't see why they can't not mo-cap Serkis yet fucking again. Dude is a good actor without fucking dots on his face. He was great as Klaue in Ultron even if his name did sound like a Inspector Gadget villain. Could be the Almighty Imperial Overlord without freaking CGing him.

Supreme Leader sounds more secular than say, if Snoke was a Sith or some other darksider.

[Anacronian]

Savage Oppress is a badass villain name and Dooku sounds a bit silly but not terrible.



Maybe he ain't an alien but really, really, oh god a fucking walking corpse, really old Palpatine style and are just going to CG Andy rather then forcing him to undergo several hours of make-up daily.

I just don't see why they can't not mo-cap Serkis yet fucking again. Dude is a good actor without fucking dots on his face. He was great as Klaue in Ultron even if his name did sound like a Inspector Gadget villain. Could be the Almighty Imperial Overlord without freaking CGing him.

Supreme Leader sounds more secular than say, if Snoke was a Sith or some other darksider.

Supreme Chancellor Palpatine sounds secular as all hell... just saying.

Titles seem to matter very little in deciding who's the dark hat and who's not.

[Pelranius]

Savage Oppress is a badass villain name and Dooku sounds a bit silly but not terrible.



Maybe he ain't an alien but really, really, oh god a fucking walking corpse, really old Palpatine style and are just going to CG Andy rather then forcing him to undergo several hours of make-up daily.

I just don't see why they can't not mo-cap Serkis yet fucking again. Dude is a good actor without fucking dots on his face. He was great as Klaue in Ultron even if his name did sound like a Inspector Gadget villain. Could be the Almighty Imperial Overlord without freaking CGing him.

Supreme Leader sounds more secular than say, if Snoke was a Sith or some other darksider.

Supreme Chancellor Palpatine sounds secular as all hell... just saying.

Titles seem to matter very little in deciding who's the dark hat and who's not.

Well, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine was hiding his dark hat.

A "walking corpse", as opposed to a mo-cap alien character, would probably immediately fall into the "Darth Annedudu" category, unless the First Order is a magocracy.

[Adam Reynolds]

Supreme Leader sounds more secular than say, if Snoke was a Sith or some other darksider.

Isn't it the case that Andy Serkis was narrating the original teaser? The one that was going on about feeling an awakening in the Force. If that is the case then he must be a Force user and presumably a Sith.

Though there is something odd here. Serkis narration had the line "have you felt it, Master." This implies that his character is an apprentice to someone. That doesn't make sense if Snoke is Kyle Ren's master.

After the clone wars cartoon, the only explanation for Order 66 I can see is that the chip in every clones head overrode their free will when the order was given. We don't know how the clones reacted when they got their free will back*, but I can't see them being happy about it. Angry clones destroying the infrastructure on Kamino is one way that the Empire might have lost the ability to clone new soldiers.

I hate to derail this thread but this element from the Clone Wars always annoyed me. The answer as to why Clones obeyed Order 66 was given in AOTC in their first introduction by the Kaminioians. "They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

That was all the explanation Order 66 needed. Not control chips. What they should have done throughout the series was a subtle sense that the clones weren't normal humans. While they would do things like crack jokes and flinch in the face of gunfire, when given orders they would follow them regardless of the cost. It would be something akin to the second and third laws of robotics from Asimov. While clones would always act in self preservation when allowed, if they were ever given a contradictory order they would follow it regardless of the consequences.

There is a second more thematic problem with the idea of control chips as the reasoning for Order 66. When one considers real life atrocities such as genocide, part of what makes them horrific is the idea that normal people committed them. It was not an army of sociopaths that carried out the holocaust*.
Part of the horror of Order 66 was the idea that it was the seemingly loyal followers of the Jedi that killed them.
* Though it is likely that there were a greater number of them involved. Including one at the top. I'm not sure if it has been confirmed, but it is highly likely that Reinhard Heydrich, who headed the Wanasse Conference, was a sociopath.

And the final major problem for me was that it made the Jedi even dumber. Why would the Jedi agree to control chips that could allow the clones to turn on them? Especially once they found out that Dooku was involved in the creation of the Clone Army. The films were bad enough in this respect on their own, Clone Wars took things too far.

[Irbis]

I hate to derail this thread but this element from the Clone Wars always annoyed me. The answer as to why Clones obeyed Order 66 was given in AOTC in their first introduction by the Kaminioians. "They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host."

That was all the explanation Order 66 needed. Not control chips. What they should have done throughout the series was a subtle sense that the clones weren't normal humans. While they would do things like crack jokes and flinch in the face of gunfire, when given orders they would follow them regardless of the cost. It would be something akin to the second and third laws of robotics from Asimov. While clones would always act in self preservation when allowed, if they were ever given a contradictory order they would follow it regardless of the consequences.

What was even more idiotic was the fact the chips were supposedly a secret. Think about this for a minute. You have an army, made up from clones sent to bleakest and most dangerous missions, being wounded in dozens of ways, being put into hands of tens of thousands of field medics, medical droids and surgeons... And not one of them noticed something wrong on scanners? What?

A conspiracy that can be blown by a single stray bullet to the head is beyond idiotic, especially seeing you have a weak link on the other side, in Kamino. Republic didn't sent anyone to supervise cloning? Didn't examine processes at all, for example to make them more efficient? Or simply to look this awfully convenient gifted horse in the mouth? No Kaminoan asked why army made by Jedi for Jedi has control chips dedicated to killing said Jedi?

This is not only stupid no matter what way you look at it, but also immensely cheapens the clones...

[Pelranius]

Supreme Leader sounds more secular than say, if Snoke was a Sith or some other darksider.

Isn't it the case that Andy Serkis was narrating the original teaser? The one that was going on about feeling an awakening in the Force. If that is the case then he must be a Force user and presumably a Sith.

Though there is something odd here. Serkis narration had the line "have you felt it, Master." This implies that his character is an apprentice to someone. That doesn't make sense if Snoke is Kyle Ren's master.

Good catch. Maybe if Snoke is addressing someone else, say a Jedi Master?

[Mange]

Supreme Leader sounds more secular than say, if Snoke was a Sith or some other darksider.

Isn't it the case that Andy Serkis was narrating the original teaser? The one that was going on about feeling an awakening in the Force. If that is the case then he must be a Force user and presumably a Sith.

Though there is something odd here. Serkis narration had the line "have you felt it, Master." This implies that his character is an apprentice to someone. That doesn't make sense if Snoke is Kyle Ren's master.

Good catch. Maybe if Snoke is addressing someone else, say a Jedi Master?

The line is: "Have you felt it?" There's no "Master" in there (not in the trailer at least).

[FaxModem1]

I think the chip plotline was necessary because of a choice that was made. The clones can be organic machines that are cannon fodder, which isn't that rich for story potential, or you can explore what it means to be a clone who is bred for war, and seeing their point of view in everything. The Umbara story arc showed your perspective, with the Jedi viewing the clones as disposable people to throw away, it was a very dark side view, and proved to be one of the Sith and the dark side.

So, with the Clone Wars establishing that the clones are living, breathing, humans who fight for their country, albeit in a less than legal manner, you have compelling stories about the clones doing their duty, friendship with the Jedi, etc. The Jedi seem to value the clones, seem to be giving them rights and consider their feelings when they can(giving them names, the clones have their own bar they can hang out, they actually have shore leave, etc.), and adds to the tragedy that the clones are essentially forced against their will to kill their commanding officers and as we see in Rebels, are not happy about it.

It makes the Empire more evil, and shows how many more lives the Emperor ruined for his rise to power.

[Gandalf]

I got the impression that people liked the chip in head storyline because it meant that the Order 66 scene can't be laid at the hands everyone's favourite genetically engineered super soldiers. Therefore, they can be likeable and Disney can keep putting them all on merchandise.

[Adam Reynolds]

I got the impression that people liked the chip in head storyline because it meant that the Order 66 scene can't be laid at the hands everyone's favourite genetically engineered super soldiers. Therefore, they can be likeable and Disney can keep putting them all on merchandise.

I agree that this is why. Doesn't make it a good idea. Frankly I think it would have been better if throughout their portrayals in the prequels and Clone Wars there was a sense that Clones were completely obedient to whatever orders they were given. While they were human they also followed orders regardless of the cost or consequences.

I actually think the bigger and more general problem is that any story in the Clone Wars must be a tragedy. Thus it really isn't a very good era for side stories as everything is doomed regardless. While it isn't really as good of a series, Rebels is better in this respect in that whatever chances the characters make can seem to have a larger impact as the ending will eventually be happy.

And like it or not, in the end, Clone Troopers have to be bad guys. How human they are is irrelevant in this fact.

[Zixinus]

Clones never really outright questioned orders, except in exceptional circumstances. Look at how they obeyed Krell's orders even though they knew they would be marching into a shooting gallery.

The problem is that the longer the clones were out in the real world, the more the indoctrination would have to deteriorate by experience. Look at how clones behaved when they were on Kamino and compare that to how the more experienced veterans acted. They took up names, they customized their hair and even their armor. So it would make sense for new clones to be unquestioningly obedient. But not so much experienced clones.

The other problem is that it was established and made sense that the Jedi treated the clones well, someone like Obi-Wan who even regularly wore armor similar to theirs. The Jedi fought with them and it is normal to develop strong bonds with people you fight with. Having every clone betray that bond immediately is a bit hard to swallow, especially among veterans that developed strong bonds with the Jedi.

I agree that the whole biochip business was not the best way to handle the situation but it was one that at least made some amount of sense. That it was a very close call for Palpatine about their discovery was perhaps the biggest moment when his plans were endangered. It gives a reason why they had no hesitation. But the problem is that to handle it better would have required changing how Order 66 was handled in the movie (such as making the whole Order 66 more elaborate thing) and they couldn't do that, not even with the new cannon.

You are right that it should have been shown that the clones handle orders differently than a normal soldier would have, they would have experienced them more as compulsions. I do not agree that they should have been shown as inhuman, that would have made it more difficult for the audience to sympathize with them. Add various neural-override mechanisms built into them too, like have one that for a certain stimulus the soldier will relax and enter into a semi-coma state that would be helpful to have when they were injured. Essentially biological equivalent of maintenance modes and external interfaces. It would have then made sense that when Order 66 came to that they have a strong free-will override built-in to their brains.

The better solution would have been to deceive the troops about the Jedi, not just force them to carry out the order. But that would have required butting heads with the canon. Who knows, maybe we'll see glimpses of that in Rebels.