Rogue One (Spoilers)

[Galvatron]

True, but we're talking about a new canon with 20/20 hindsight about how the Republic was before Palpatine militarized it. It should be no surprise that the post-Imperial galaxy is as devoid of adventure and excitement as it was before the Clone Wars.

[The Romulan Republic]

If it weren't for Star Killer Base, I'd have a hard time giving any reason as to why anyone should fear the First Order. If they're the remnants of the Empire in the new canon, taking on the role Thrawn and his fleets did while Palpy got reincarnated, then they should be shown to have that kind of heft to them. Instead, it's like the New Republic has literally a squadron of T-70s and the First Order have a single ISD like ship and some TIEs. Also, a bigger, badder Death Star that has an even more prominent weakness for no real reason.

The anthology films at least, being set in the original trilogy time, have all that settled. We know what the stakes are, who the main players are, and what this all means. We had the prequels setting up Palpatine and Vader, and the OT displays what they've done to freedom in the galaxy in just a couple decades. Had I not read more on TFA, I wouldn't be able to say from the film what is even going on without resorting to now removed novel synopses. Hell, I didn't even realise Star Killer Base fired beams through hyperspace and all that guff. I figured it was just a reskinned DS with a nice landscaping job.

The First Order's tech. and rank and file troops impressed me well enough. Ties with hyperdrive and ejector seats. Flamethrowers. Stormtroopers with what appears to be anti-lightsabre training and gear. And of course, Starkiller Base. Yes, their internal security is shit, but frankly so is the Empire's.

The problem is that they lack compelling or threatening individual villains. Snoke could be in theory, but has had little screen time and development yet to make him more than a watered down Palpatine knock-off. Kylo Ren is an interesting character, being a deconstruction of a Vader-wannabe, but for precisely that reason isn't terribly impressive as an antagonist. Hux is one-dimensional, and Phasma has virtually no screen time or character development, and her biggest scene makes her the butt of a joke.

This is, thankfully, a problem that subsequent films can fix, since its mostly a matter of lack of character development.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The First Order's tech. and rank and file troops impressed me well enough. Ties with hyperdrive and ejector seats. Flamethrowers. Stormtroopers with what appears to be anti-lightsabre training and gear. And of course, Starkiller Base. Yes, their internal security is shit, but frankly so is the Empire's.

The problem is that they lack compelling or threatening individual villains. Snoke could be in theory, but has had little screen time and development yet to make him more than a watered down Palpatine knock-off. Kylo Ren is an interesting character, being a deconstruction of a Vader-wannabe, but for precisely that reason isn't terribly impressive as an antagonist. Hux is one-dimensional, and Phasma has virtually no screen time or character development, and her biggest scene makes her the butt of a joke.

This is, thankfully, a problem that subsequent films can fix, since its mostly a matter of lack of character development.

I was going to say that Snoke seems too much like a retread of Palpy, as Starkiller was another moon sized superweapon. Kylo Ren, however, was fascinating precisely because he wanted to be Vader, but had absolutely none of the training or self-control Anakin had learnt, not to mention lightsabre construction.

He's the one thing that rivals the fresher, yet still recognisable, take on the galaxy in R1. If they can have a combined Vader/Krennic in Kylo, then it is suitably novel while still in keeping with the more familiar as to be interesting to me.

With Krennic, it was like we were seeing the events of ESB from the perspective of Capt. Needa as a kind of switch up on the story.

I digress. Episode VIII needs to focus a little more on world building to get us up-to-date on just what is going on since they don't have the benefit of just using the GCW setting as a backdrop.

[Gandalf]

I thought that the point of the First Order was that they were essentially fans of the Empire, in the same way that Rey was a fan of the Rebellion. Both clumsily sought to recreate their heroes and carry on their legacies. That was one of the things I quite liked about the film, in that it can be read as a tale of Star Wars fans trying to recreate the legends with which they grew up.

[The Romulan Republic]

I thought that the point of the First Order was that they were essentially fans of the Empire, in the same way that Rey was a fan of the Rebellion. Both clumsily sought to recreate their heroes and carry on their legacies. That was one of the things I quite liked about the film, in that it can be read as a tale of Star Wars fans trying to recreate the legends with which they grew up.

Did Rey really seek it though? She was reluctant to leave Jakku because she was waiting for her family, and initially freaked out and ran when confronted with Force visions and her personal connection to the Force. I feel like both she and Finn, in different ways, only joined in reluctantly, when circumstances compelled them to.

But yes, I liked how Kylo Ren, rather than being a Vader knock-off, was someone consciously trying to be a Vader knock-off and failing.

[Galvatron]

I thought that the point of the First Order was that they were essentially fans of the Empire, in the same way that Rey was a fan of the Rebellion. Both clumsily sought to recreate their heroes and carry on their legacies. That was one of the things I quite liked about the film, in that it can be read as a tale of Star Wars fans trying to recreate the legends with which they grew up.

I agree. Additionally, I think the First Order is also supposed to be a subversion of the old Rebel Alliance which makes the New Republic their "evil empire" to fight against.

Hell, they even have sympathizers in the New Republic Senate.

[Gandalf]

I thought that the point of the First Order was that they were essentially fans of the Empire, in the same way that Rey was a fan of the Rebellion. Both clumsily sought to recreate their heroes and carry on their legacies. That was one of the things I quite liked about the film, in that it can be read as a tale of Star Wars fans trying to recreate the legends with which they grew up.

I agree. Additionally, I think the First Order is also supposed to be a subversion of the old Rebel Alliance which makes the New Republic their "evil empire" to fight against.

Hell, they even have sympathizers in the New Republic Senate.

I'd love to see a scene in the next film wherein Rey/Ren or whoever have an argument about who is the Evil Empire and who gets to be the Rebellion now. They both know that rebellions get a +2 to moral high ground, so it's a bizarre struggle for narrative control.

[The Romulan Republic]

They're only a rebellion if they're considered the good guys. Bad guy rebellions are called "terrorists".

[Galvatron]

I'd love to see a scene in the next film wherein Rey/Ren or whoever have an argument about who is the Evil Empire and who gets to be the Rebellion now. They both know that rebellions get a +2 to moral high ground, so it's a bizarre struggle for narrative control.

You mean some heavy-handed piece of dialogue akin to "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

[The Romulan Republic]

My favourite part of that scene was Obi-wan's "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." Which is itself an absolute.

Was Obi-wan making a coded confession to being a Sith?

[Gandalf]

You mean some heavy-handed piece of dialogue akin to "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

Maybe they could go on the New Republic's Meet The Press.

"Mister Ren, you've become a very public figure in the ongoing campaign of the First Order. How do you answer the claims of being as bad, if not worse than the Empire which caused so much damage a generation ago?"
"Firstly, I wouldn't call our struggles a campaign..."

Tell me you wouldn't watch that film!

[Galvatron]

A full two hours of prequellian sociopolitical debate? Sign me up!

[The Romulan Republic]

By the way, I have to say how much I like the final Vader scene, which is by far the high point of this film. My only real complaints are that it felt a little out of place to me following right after the finale on Scariff, and that it felt so short, almost abrupt. But really, it was like something out of a horror film, and effectively so. And they were able to show what Vader was capable of with modern effects technology, without it feeling too out of step with his presentation in the OT, like going all flipping around like the PT Jedi.

And those rebel troops going up against Vader. Even though they were hopelessly outmatched and died horribly, they stood their ground long enough to get the plans to safety. A credit to redshirts everywhere.

Edit: I have to hand it to that scene for making the fate of rank and file no name troops as affecting as that of any of the main characters to me. I wish the rest of the film could have done that more, but still... well done.

[Iroscato]

You people are monsters.

[Adam Reynolds]

A full two hours of prequellian sociopolitical debate? Sign me up!

I will still say that the lack of any political discussion was the fatal flaw in TFA, along with the focus on Starkiller Base. It gave us no sense of why the fights mattered or whether Leia had actually accomplished anything with the Senate and New Republic.

[The Romulan Republic]

They were trying too hard to make a film that would appeal to whiney OT fans who were bitter over the Prequels, rather than make a film that was good on its own merits.

[Lord Revan]

You people are monsters.

because we liked that Vader scene?

I see that seen being liking Jaws or Aliens, you don't like the creature but you can like how well the scene is crafted to showcase the monster. I like that scene because it perfectly showcases why everyone friend or foe shit themselves at mere mention of Vader, also in a way it makes Luke's character stronger seeing as Luke was able to not only stand up but defeat Vader in single combat, where as the average redshirt wasn't even a speedbump to Vader.

[Iroscato]

You people are monsters.

because we liked that Vader scene?

I see that seen being liking Jaws or Aliens, you don't like the creature but you can like how well the scene is crafted to showcase the monster. I like that scene because it perfectly showcases why everyone friend or foe shit themselves at mere mention of Vader, also in a way it makes Luke's character stronger seeing as Luke was able to not only stand up but defeat Vader in single combat, where as the average redshirt wasn't even a speedbump to Vader.

Nah, I was jokingly responding to the posts about "prequellian debate" and so on

[The Romulan Republic]

You know, you can do political subplots well. Just because you didn't like the Prequel's presentation doesn't mean it has to be bad.

[Galvatron]

TFA could have benefited from a scene like the round table meeting on the Death Star in ANH. That was a political subplot done well.

[wautd]

TFA could have benefited from a scene like the round table meeting on the Death Star in ANH. That was a political subplot done well.

I love that scene because they added a lot more details than they needed to. It were those little details that made ANH such a great movie. Things that weren't really important to the story of the movie, but indicated there's a big, living world.
Things like Han mentioning the Kessel Run, Luke telling about shooting womp rats in his T-16, talk about the Clone Wars, stormtroopers smalltalking about some kind of sweet ride. We didn't knew what the hell they were talking about but damn it sounded cool and we wanted to know more about it.

That's why I loved hearing two stormtroopers banter about something finally going obsolete during Rogue One. It's those little things...

[NeoGoomba]

The original trilogy did a great job of building a living, breathing world in which their initially archetypal characters could grow and develop. Even Lando and Yoda, who show up halfway through, get some interesting touches that, while adding nothing to the narrative, help cement an actual mythos to Star Wars.

The Prequels felt like an RPG where only the primary characters mattered, and everyone else was a quest-giver or vanilla NPC. I don't recall much from TFA in this regard, sadly, but that could be due more to Rogue One pushing its way to the front of my mind.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I love that scene because they added a lot more details than they needed to. It were those little details that made ANH such a great movie. Things that weren't really important to the story of the movie, but indicated there's a big, living world.
Things like Han mentioning the Kessel Run, Luke telling about shooting womp rats in his T-16, talk about the Clone Wars, stormtroopers smalltalking about some kind of sweet ride. We didn't knew what the hell they were talking about but damn it sounded cool and we wanted to know more about it.

That's why I loved hearing two stormtroopers banter about something finally going obsolete during Rogue One. It's those little things...

Luke mentions bullseyeing womp rats in his T-16 in ANH.

Two First Order Stormtroopera talk about the T-17 being unveiled in TFA.

A duo of Stormtroopers discuss the T-15 being obsolete in R1.

It's the little things.

Or stuff like "Oh look, here's Lyra back from the dead. It's a miracle." I confess to loving Krennic's character.

[Gaidin]

Wait it took that many years for the speeder to jump one version between ANH and TFA, but only 15 minutes between RO and ANH?

[Shroom Man 777]

I presume civilians - even middle of nowhere Tattooine moisture farmers? - could get something on the market faster than some government thing that takes forever to upgrade its stocks and replace old stocks?

..like... other guns aside from the M9 or Berretta 92F have been on the market forever but the US Army will probably never phase it out. Whereas some dude in the middle of nowhere Murca probably has the newest coolest tacticool SIG SAUCER that will take forever for the average grunt in the Marangerines to ever get.