New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

A real, intelligent debate deals in objective topics with evidence.

HAHHA What the fuck are you talking about? Are you really saying the only “intelligent” debate is about objective topics? Care to cite some examples? Would you like to debate, which is faster light or sound? That will be one hell of a debate, lasting all of two posts.

Or are you more in SDN suspension of disbelief mode? I’ve debated some people on here who are incapable of viewing a movie from a story telling perspective because they treat the film like it’s a documentary, claiming that’s the only way to be objective. And that’s a great way to argue shit like, would the Falcon beat Serenity in a fight or would an Ewok worship a cylon. But that’s not what this thread about and I should have known you were this dumb from page 1. I think DXIII summed it up pretty well early on.

Yeah, a seconds-long burst of speed (that wore quickly wore off as we see the Jedi running at normal speeds on security cameras right after) means that they can survive any fight, no matter the number or positioning of the enemy troops.

Shit, you're fucking stupid.

Over and over again you focus on these useless little NITPICKS while completely missing the real point.

When they are attacked, they effortlessly cut through the first droids.

When the second droids show up, they MAGICALLY get a new ability.... that is NEVER SEEN AGAIN so the movie can move to the next scene.

When more droids show up... they effortly cut through them again.

Then later on, there's a room of droids... and they say "won't be a problem".

They can survive any fight because they are POORLY WRITTEN.

To which you so eloquently responded by calling him a troll. You're an idiot when you make claims like intelligent debate is only about objective topics. Guess what, you’re not a scientist and this isn't a lab, pick up a book on film theory or literary criticism because you look like a moron or best case scenario someone with aspergers. Also just in case you aren’t aware suspension of disbelief is still subjective debate.

[Channel72]

The real issue is that the Trade Federation are bad guys, and they want to do evil things to the good guys, but we don't ever know HOW the evil things they do connect with their goals as bad guys. Guess what: This isn't normal storytelling, you obtuse moron.

LOL! What does the Trade Fed even DO during the movie?
1) Blockade and invade a planet in the first few minutes.
2) Spend the rest of the movie trying to get away with it.

That's basically it. There is an economic dispute, and the movie plainly says that the Trade Fed is using military power to try to get their way. This is not the story of the movie, and it does not go past the surface. You can keep denying and denying, but your post boils down to the same old "spell out the nitty gritty details of the taxes for me."

Again, I can't tell if you're a pathological liar or if your reading comprehension is really just this bad.

The movie gives us a vague reason for the initial blockade (taxation of trade routes) which is fine because it's just setup material. After that, none of the subsequent actions of the Trade Federation are explained. The movie never explains what they get out of INVADING Naboo, you idiot. If it's supposed to be just a show of force to get their way in the Senate, why do they later deny that they ever invaded? How does invading and occupying Naboo result in them getting lower taxes? How does the treaty making the invasion legal result in them getting lower taxes? (Or if they'll just do anything Palpatine says, how does the treaty help Palpatine?) None of their actions make any real sense, and yet the movie treats these things (the treaty, the invasion) as important plot points that the characters have to deal with.

If you could just answer these questions using information from the movie, we wouldn't even be talking about this and this thread would have died on page 1. But of course, you can't, because the movie never explains any of this. But you already know that since like 60% of your "magnum opus" against RLM seems to be attempts to explain away problems by making things up which aren't in the movie.

I'm done with your post here, and relegating you back to "people I won't even bother responding to for now."

Nice. I guess that's a lot easier than actually addressing the arguments here.

[Channel72]

Another problem with TPM is that, ultimately, the intended motivator is working at cross-purposes with the idea of the movie. Star Wars movies are fast-paced, but political movies are slower, because they need to explain and exposit to get things across.

Yeah, the Prequels in general were too focused on the political movers and shakers, rather than actual relatable people like the OT. It's like every other scene took us directly into the Oval Office on Coruscant. Really, it would have been better if Lucas seriously played down the whole political angle and just had the outbreak of the Clone Wars as a given which was out of the protagonists' control. Who cares about Palpatine's Machiavellian political machinations? Just make him some successful General in the Clone Wars who's secretly a Sith Lord and takes Anakin under his wing. Palpatine can then just cross the Rubicon into Coruscant and take control of everything Caesar-style, after winning the Clone Wars.

[Purple]

Now that you say all that I have to pitch in a bit.

I liked the story of the prequels, I really did. The idea that one man can trick a whole galaxy like that and do what he did is a good one. However I do agree that the implementation is lacking. And I think I know why. A story like that, where the plot is driven by a single character usually has that character as the protagonist. He is the one that gets things done. He is the one that matters. So clearly, in order to actually see what is happening we need to fallow him and see the events through his perspective. In the prequels however you don't get that. Instead you get to see a movie struggling to both fallow the protagonist (Obi Wan and later Anikin) and show us all the exposition required for the story to work. TPM makes it work mostly becouse the plan is only in its inception. That movie if you ask me could function well on its own without any of the others. In fact, it would probably work out better without any link to any of them, just as an episodic piece. However as the movies go on you get to see more and more watering down. Yes, we get to see the fall of the Republic and yes we get to see the fall of Anikin and yes we get to see a lot of other things. But what we don't get is a strong protagonist to tie these things together into a single unified whole. It's almost as if the movies can't decide who the protagonist should be.Anikin our protagonist is nothing of the sort as the story does not actually fallow his point of view. Yes we get to see his perspective at times but only rarely. And newer do we get the feeling that he is actually driving things him self. Yes he was a pawn to Palpatine most of the time but that could have been implemented much better. We could have been shown things just from his perspective, how he sees them and only understand in the end just how much of a pawn he was. That should have been the big shock at the end. Instead, the exposition on the sides prevents this.

If you ask me the prequels could have been a set of really good character pieces had they been done right. Nothing about the story needs to be changed. The only thing they should have done is focus on one character or a small group of them and let the world evolve around them more naturally. Let the audience draw conclusions by them self in the end.

[Channel72]

A thread which drags out for 2 months and over 20 pages about a subjective topic (or worse, people's silly attempts to justify their subjective opinion with pseudo-objective arguments) is not a "real debate" to me.

This debate isn't really subjective. The villains in TPM aren't given any explicit motivation for many of their on-screen actions. This is an objective FACT, and this makes the writing in TPM pretty different from most other movies or stories, as has been demonstrated over and over again in this thread. It's just my subjective opinion that this writing strategy makes the movie pretty crappy and muddled.

You can't deny this, so instead of just saying "yeah, that's a valid criticism, but it doesn't ruin the movie for me", you keep trying to pretend we're arguing about minutiae. But in doing so, you've literally turned into a textbook demonstration of dishonest debating tactics. You've literally ignored the countless comparisons to other movies in this thread, and continuously repeat, broken-record style, that the TF's motivation is trivially "they want to be taxed less" and that's all that matters.

Except that's a lie, because you're trying to conflate the initial blockade (which IS actually trivially explained by one line about taxes in the opening crawl) with ALL THE OTHER SHIT that the Trade Federation does to drive the plot throughout the movie, like: 1) invade and occupy Naboo, 2) Take one of the main characters hostage and force her to sign a treaty to legalize their invasion, 3) Set up internment camps which (allegedly) are causing major suffering 4) Inexplicably deny ever invading Naboo to the Senate.

These things aren't trivial details or minutiae, you lying shit. They're major turning points in the movie's plot that occur throughout the film. You keep lying and claiming everyone cares so much about taxes or that we want a scene where Nute Gunray reads Section 5A Subsection P of the Republic Interstellar Tax Code aloud to the audience. Nobody really cares about taxes - it's just that the Trade Federation is driving the plot with all these unexplained actions, and the one line about taxes is the only fucking thing we have to work with here.

[Jim Raynor]

Hey, you didn't actually give a satisfactory answer as to why your interpretation is so much superior

The fact that you actually challenged me to specifically go into the nitty gritty of why one speculative answer is better than another speculative answer that works shows how hard you're reaching. I told you I didn't care for that nonsense and I stand by that.

And even if I were to entertain this whiny nonsense, that hardly anybody in the theater actually cares about? The Trade Fed are the ones identifying themselves with the word trade. They have a trade "franchise," a word that rather clearly connotes business, in trade. Last but not least, Palpatine says that the trade taxes originated in the Republic Senate. So yeah, it's pretty freakin' easy to tell that the Trade Federation with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes, and would VERY probably want those taxes reduced or removed. We went over this how many times already, and how long ago?

Which means that all of you guys who can't get that or want that spelled out (despite totally denying that so recently) really aren't as smart as you all think you are?

you're still using "subjective" as a pejorative, so you are acting in exactly the way I said you were, as a goddamn living robot.

Why shouldn't I, in a completely lame thread where a bunch of whiners and posers try to show off how smart they are on the basis of HOW MUCH THEY HATE A MOVIE?

The fact that you're even challenging me on my dismissive attitude toward a subjective "debate" shows how personally you are taking this. Everyone can have their opinion, but no one else really has to give a crap about a base opinion. You can go back and forth FOREVER screaming about your opinion. The total stupidity of that doesn't go away just because you try to inject your opinion with pseudo-logic. No, it just gets even dumber.

[Jim Raynor]

I said I would ignore you, but your ignorance was so egregious that it demanded a response. You have now sunk from someone who wants everything spelled out onscreen to a ridiculous degree, to someone who flat out DENIES what actually is spelled out onscreen.

A thread which drags out for 2 months and over 20 pages about a subjective topic (or worse, people's silly attempts to justify their subjective opinion with pseudo-objective arguments) is not a "real debate" to me.

This debate isn't really subjective. The villains in TPM aren't given any explicit motivation for many of their on-screen actions.

"Many" of their on-screen actions. All of their "actions" basically boil down to

A) Attacking Naboo in the first few minutes of the movie, for a general reason literally written out onscreen
B) Cover up A

1) invade and occupy Naboo,

Please stop talking, because you're putting your ignorance on full display. The invasion was part of the same exact original plan as the blockade, just further down the line as was clearly stated in the movie. A ground invasion does the same exact thing as a naval blockade (i.e. shut down Naboo and piss off people throughout the Republic), it's just harsher and does things to an even greater extent.

Did this REALLY have to be explained to you? Oh yeah, you're the guy who seriously asked me to explain why people jam enemy communications during a military attack.

2) Take one of the main characters hostage and force her to sign a treaty to legalize their invasion,

Wow man. I really don't like to throw out accusations of trolling, but it's stupid crap like this which has made me do this throughout this entire thread. They clearly want a legalistic loophole from any consequences. Aggressors have forced treaties out of weaker nations they've invaded throughout history.

What's more, they flat out SAID that they wanted the treaty to "legalize" the invasion.

3) Set up internment camps which (allegedly) are causing major suffering

Not allegedly. The Naboo official acknowledged them in a private conversation.

And guess what, when someone invades a world it's a pretty easy to guess that they want to control its population. Again, something that has happened throughout history. Furthermore, it was flat out stated onscreen that the harshness of the camps was supposed to compel Padme to follow along and sign the treaty.

4) Inexplicably deny ever invading Naboo to the Senate.

Because they didn't want to acknowledge anything until AFTER they got all their legal loopholes in place!

You are seriously an embarassment to the human race. Or a troll I'm completely wasting my time on.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

The Trade Fed are the ones identifying themselves with the word trade. They have a trade "franchise," a word that rather clearly connotes business, in trade.

Federation usually connotes a government entity.

fed·er·a·tion
noun
1. the act of federating or uniting in a league.
2. the formation of a political unity, with a central government, by a number of separate states, each of which retains control of its own internal affairs.
3. a league or confederacy.
4. a federated body formed by a number of nations, states, societies, unions, etc., each retaining control of its own internal affairs.

Last but not least, Palpatine says that the trade taxes originated in the Republic Senate. So yeah, it's pretty freakin' easy to tell that the Trade Federation with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade routes, and would VERY probably want those taxes reduced or removed. We went over this how many times already, and how long ago?

Around the same time we discussed how the movie clearly showed the Republic was in the pocket of the TF. Which makes them forcing taxes on themselves pretty fucking stupid.

Which means that all of you guys who can't get that or want that spelled out (despite totally denying that so recently) really aren't as smart as you all think you are?

You're an idiot.

[Bakustra]

Not allegedly. The Naboo official acknowledged them in a private conversation.

And guess what, when someone invades a world it's a pretty easy to guess that they want to control its population. Again, something that has happened throughout history. Furthermore, it was flat out stated onscreen that the harshness of the camps was supposed to compel Padme to follow along and sign the treaty.

INT. NABOO SPACECRAFT - QUEENS CHAMBERS

AMIDALA, EIRTAE, RABE, and OBI-WAN watch a very bad transmission of a SIO
BIBBLE hologram.

BIBBLE : ...cut off all food supplies until you return...the death toll is
catastrophic...we must bow to their wishes, Your Highness...Please tell us
what to do! If you can hear us, Your Highness, you must contact me...

AMIDALA looks upset...almost nervous.

OBI-WAN : It's a trick. Send no reply... Send no transmission of any kind.
INT. ANAKIN'S HOVEL - MAIN ROOM - DAY

QUI-GON listens to his comlink. OBI-WAN is in the cockpit.

OBI-WAN : ...the Queen is upset...but absolutly no reply was sent.
QUI-GON : It sounds like bait to establish a connection trace.
OBI-WAN : What if it is true and the people are dying?
QUI-GON : Either way, we're running out of time.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

True. However Raynor acting like it ONLY connotes a business annoys me. Seeing as they could just as easily be a government entity. Don't worry he'll come back and he'll underline the word trade a few more times.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Aye.

Now, I find the word 'franchise' weirder.

Your local McDonald's is probably a franchise store. That means that location is independently owned and operated; a local person owns the store, instead of the McDonald's corporation.

But, it's still just like most other McDonald's in many ways - same branding, same menus, same business plan.


What business is the Trade Federation a franchise of? If their franchise comes from the government, are they following a government plan?

idk, I guess the writer probably just wanted something cooler sounding than 'license', and hell, maybe it's used this way in real life too. I've never seen it, but I haven't seen a lot of things.

I bet Lucas just forgot he called them a federation when he referred to them as a franchise later in the script. Just like he forgot Obi Wan says "a thousand Generations" in ANH and in PT they say a thousand years.

[Gunhead]

Again, since this point needs to be repeated. The tax issue is the reason given for the blockade and is dumped the second the jedi make their initial appearance. After that it's told on screen that it's bathrobe man who's behind all of it and there's no reason to assume he gives two shits about the taxation issue.
It's even plausible he orchestrated the whole situation with the TF. I'm in fact going with probable.
He tells TF to launch an invasion right after our pansy boys one and two are ready to tuck tail and run. The focus is then shifted to some treaty that I assume would give TF.. something and bathrobe man would get.. something. TF's compliance in this can be pegged to the taxation issue, but it's stupid in the face of the fact they we're ready to pull plug and bail and would have if Palpy hadn't told them to launch the invasion. Palpy's insistence on the treaty being signed is even more up in the air than TF's motivations on going along with his plan.

The tax issue carries the movie right up to the point where the invasion takes place. TF was willing to threaten with violence and initially balked at the idea of going from threats to implementation but got assurances they wouldn't be left holding the bag if it all blows up. But the initial plan was a washout and they go along with Palpy's invasion, without trying to get more out him, without negotiating, without having an ulterior motive for doing his bidding and all we know they made a bargain at some point. The details of the bargain are never discussed in any detail.

Even if you buy that the TF did what they did for taxes, it still doesn't explain what was Palpy's interest in the whole affair and why he insisted the treaty got signed and it's not until plot device Padme is in Coruscant we know of Palpy's ambitions to be the chancellor. So in addition to having the toothless TF we have the evil mastermind who's action in the earlier parts of the movie aren't clear and presumably gets what he was initially after when he's made head honcho of the republic. How invading Naboo or the treaty would have helped him no one knows and we don't even really know was the chancellorship his initial goal for cooking up the whole tax issue and subsequent blockade that lead to the invasion.

-Gunhead

[Channel72]

The villains in TPM aren't given any explicit motivation for many of their on-screen actions.

"Many" of their on-screen actions. All of their "actions" basically boil down to

A) Attacking Naboo in the first few minutes of the movie, for a general reason literally written out onscreen
B) Cover up A

Man, this is getting surreal. Literally written out onscreen, you say? I guess you're referring to the opening crawl. So once again you fail to realize that the text in the opening crawl only explains the INITIAL BLOCKADE. Sigh... instead of responding to your repetitive bullshit again I'll save myself some time and just copy and paste Gunhead's post above, which pretty much accurately explains the problem here:

The tax issue carries the movie right up to the point where the invasion takes place. TF was willing to threaten with violence and initially balked at the idea of going from threats to implementation but got assurances they wouldn't be left holding the bag if it all blows up. But the initial plan was a washout and they go along with Palpy's invasion, without trying to get more out him, without negotiating, without having an ulterior motive for doing his bidding and all we know they made a bargain at some point. The details of the bargain are never discussed in any detail.

A ground invasion does the same exact thing as a naval blockade (i.e. shut down Naboo and piss off people throughout the Republic), it's just harsher and does things to an even greater extent.

A ground invasion is an order of magnitude more expensive, risky, and totally out of proportion with a simple tax protest. Even Qui-Gon realizes this when he says "There is no logic in the Federation's move here." Nobody understands why the Trade Federation would do something so insane, when the blockade itself was seemingly an effective way to protest taxes. The movie sets it up like there's some kind of interesting mystery going on here. But there's never any payoff or revelation - we never know how the invasion was supposed to benefit the Trade Federation. From the audience's perspective, it simply comes off like they'll just do anything Palpatine says, even if it's totally contrary to their interests.

Did this REALLY have to be explained to you? Oh yeah, you're the guy who seriously asked me to explain why people jam enemy communications during a military attack.

You keep lying about this. I never asked you why they would jam communications during a military attack. I simply responded to your criticism over RLM's line about jamming communications. You said it was a totally stupid question, since jamming communications during a military attack is normal. I responded by saying the question isn't that stupid, because the point of the question is to highlight how cutting off communications from Naboo seems to run counter to Palpatine's overall plan of generating sympathy for Naboo in the Senate. We never know how Palpatine intended for word of the invasion to even get out, unless he always intended for Amidala to show up... which would be odd since he sent Darth Maul to stop her from showing up.

They clearly want a legalistic loophole from any consequences. Aggressors have forced treaties out of weaker nations they've invaded throughout history.
What's more, they flat out SAID that they wanted the treaty to "legalize" the invasion.

Yeah, we know that. Outright annexing Naboo goes way beyond the simple "tax protest" described in the opening crawl. The point is, as the movie progresses, the aggression of the Trade Federation amps up substantially, but we never know what their motivation is beyond the initial tax problem described in the opening crawl.

3) Set up internment camps which (allegedly) are causing major suffering

Not allegedly. The Naboo official acknowledged them in a private conversation.

As far as I remember, the movie makes it ambiguous whether or not actual suffering/dying is indeed occurring on Naboo. Qui-Gon at one point even says it's just a trick, and we never actually see these camps.

4) Inexplicably deny ever invading Naboo to the Senate.

Because they didn't want to acknowledge anything until AFTER they got all their legal loopholes in place!

Sure, I'll concede that's what Lucas was probably going for here. But since the movie never explains what the point of the whole invasion/treaty was in the first place, later on when they deny it in the Senate it just appears like more incomprehensible nonsense piled on top of an already muddled plot.

Look, I think everyone here understands the plot to TPM. Palpatine wants to create a crisis that will make Valorum look like an idiot. So he contacts the Trade Federation, taking advantage of their tax problem and promising something if they blockade Naboo. Then he tells them to invade and occupy Naboo, assuring them he'll make it legal, to further escalate the current fiasco and generate major sympathy for Naboo in the Senate. The TF goes along with it, and everything works out nicely for Palpatine.

The problem is the way all of this is actually written, the Trade Federation never seems like they have much of a reason to go along with Palpatine's crazy scheme (beyond the initial blockade). You or Elfdart even said they're just "ciphers" or "stooges" for Palpatine. Yeah, the problem is Palpatine isn't the main villain in this movie: the Trade Federation is. Their actions need to be clearly driven by their own interests, or else they're not real villains: they're just boring plot devices. What the hell don't you get about this?

[Jim Raynor]

Around the same time we discussed how the movie clearly showed the Republic was in the pocket of the TF. Which makes them forcing taxes on themselves pretty fucking stupid.

So because SOME Senators are bought off by Sidious or the Trade Federation (with the rest too dysfunctional or apathetic to lay down the law and take military action, similar to many large government and inter-government organizations in real life), ALL of them are? The opening crawl flat out said that the Senate "endlessly debates" the crisis.

Gotta love the black and white pseudo-logic you resort to.

You're an idiot.

Nice comeback.

[Jim Raynor]

Ignorantly quoting the screenplay

You don't even know which scene I'm talking about, do you? Hint: The Naboo official acknowledged it in a private conversation with the Trade Federation.

Stop embarassing yourself.

[Jim Raynor]

I shouldn't even be wasting my time on this...

A ground invasion is an order of magnitude more expensive, risky, and totally out of proportion with a simple tax protest.

Yet we have a VERY WELL KNOWN example of people fighting a years-long revolution because of taxes.

Even Qui-Gon realizes this when he says "There is no logic in the Federation's move here."

You are so funny. Here is the actual scene, in context:

QUI-GON : That won't be a problem. (to Amidala) Your Highness, under the
circumstances, Isuggest you come to Coruscant with us.
AMIDALA : Thank you, Ambassador, but my place is here with my people.
QUI-GON : They will kill you if you stay.
BIBBLE : They wouldn't dare.
CAPT. PANAKA : They need her to sign a treaty to make this invasion of
theirs legal. They can't afford to kill her.
QUI-GON : The situation here is not what it seems. There is something else
behind all this, Your Highness. There is no logic in the Federation's move
here. My feelings tell me they will destroy you.

Padme is doing the usual self-sacrificing leader routine, for reasons stated by her subordinates which are entirely true. Qui-Gon is taking no chances, and is trying to persuade her to flee for safety. He says "there is no logic" in the Trade Fed's actions to bolster a claim that they want to kill her, something that is not supported by anything else in the movie. Which is understandable, since he's trying to get the queen out of there.

A couple subjective and unsupported lines, from one cautious hero in one scene of the movie. Yet you're taking that out of context and using that to dismiss ALL the other scenes which spell out what the Trade Fed is doing...to support some surreally stupid idea that the Trade Fed wasn't acting in its interests and just doing things for no reason at all.

I do not believe that you're even genuine about this. Because the amount of effort needed to select a couple of lines and draw ridiculous conclusions from them in defiance of the rest of the movie is a lot more than simply taking what is given to you throughout the movie. Taking a couple words out of context like this is how a lawyer acts. Or a stupid kid who doesn't want to admit wrong in an argument. Difference is, the lawyer is paid large sums of money to shamelessly argue his position. What's your excuse?

Nobody understands why the Trade Federation would do something so insane, when the blockade itself was seemingly an effective way to protest taxes.

An effective protest forces political change. As of the beginning of the movie, the Senate is just being useless by "endlessly" debating things. And oh yeah: The movie FLAT OUT shows that Sidious was able to prod the Trade Fed into accelerating the plan, when they were in a moment of panic because they thought the Jedi had come to shut them down.

Ground wars are a big disincentive to further intervention. For example, the US, UN, and Arab League can give Syria all the sanctions or "strongly worded" messages of disapproval they want. Syria continues its blatant disregard for human rights and life, because it KNOWS that the rest of the world isn't inclined to take military action.

The movie sets it up like there's some kind of interesting mystery going on here. But there's never any payoff or revelation - we never know how the invasion was supposed to benefit the Trade Federation. From the audience's perspective, it simply comes off like they'll just do anything Palpatine says, even if it's totally contrary to their interests.

No, the invasion which was already a part of the original plan was clearly the next step if the blockade didn't achieve results. The Trade Fed is "greedy" and CLEARLY acting in its own interests, even if they're being manipulated by Sidious (who still presents himself as a source of help). There is no "mystery" here. You are quite simply a unique case if you can't grasp the idea that Qui-Gon wasn't taking chances and was trying to persuade Padme to get the hell out of the war zone.

This is about as stupid as that part where Stoklasa called Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on "making shit up" for telling the Gungans that the Trade Fed would attack them too. Ignoring that the Jedi have are saying things to get the cooperation they desire. But then again, I don't believe Stoklasa is genuine either.

Did this REALLY have to be explained to you? Oh yeah, you're the guy who seriously asked me to explain why people jam enemy communications during a military attack.

You keep lying about this. I never asked you why they would jam communications during a military attack. I simply responded to your criticism over RLM's line about jamming communications. You said it was a totally stupid question, since jamming communications during a military attack is normal. I responded by saying the question isn't that stupid, because the point of the question is to highlight how cutting off communications from Naboo seems to run counter to Palpatine's overall plan of generating sympathy for Naboo in the Senate.

It's not a lie, it's still an astoundingly stupid question, and you're not refuting my statements here. The Trade Fed is conducting a military operation, jamming is a part of military operations. And oh yeah: The only word they want to get out is THEIR word.

Why am I even wasting time on you again?

We never know how Palpatine intended for word of the invasion to even get out, unless he always intended for Amidala to show up...

This is simply ridiculous. He didn't forsee the Jedi's arrival, and he ordered the Trade Fed to murder the Jedi as soon as he found out about them. WANTING Padme to escape as part of the original plan requires a whole string of contrivances that run counter to his direct orders in the movie. Which must overcome the Trade Fed's near total-control of the planet's surface and surrounding space.

The VERY SIMPLE conclusion is that he wanted the Trade Fed to invade, and force Padme to sign the treaty and create an undesirable legal mess. Which the Trade Fed was proceeding with, right after landing at the palace.

I can't believe I have to spell this out. But then again, I also don't believe that YOU need this spelled out. Which is why I call you a troll.

[Bakustra]

Provide a quotation from the script.

NUTE : When are you going to give up this pointless strike? Your Queen is
lost, your people are starving, and you, Governor, are going to die, much
sooner than your people, I'm afraid. Take him away!
BIBBLE : This invasion will gain you nothing. We're a democracy. The people
have decided... They will not live under your tyranny.

This seems to be what he's talking about. Oddly enough, it suggests that the Naboo are refusing to work and/or going on hunger strikes, rather than Snidely Gunray stealing all the food. Could it be that Raynor is incapable of understanding subtext or implications? Perish the thought!

[Panzersharkcat]

I shouldn't even be wasting my time on this...

Then don't. I mostly agree with you on RLM but seriously, let this thread die already.

[Channel72]

I shouldn't even be wasting my time on this...

Stop being boring. We know you're too cool for this thread, but your blustering is boring to read. Stick to the points.

A ground invasion is an order of magnitude more expensive, risky, and totally out of proportion with a simple tax protest.

Yet we have a VERY WELL KNOWN example of people fighting a years-long revolution because of taxes.

You're actually comparing the American Revolution, which had many underlying causes and was concerned primarily with gaining independence from an overseas ruler, with the invasion of a random target by an aggressor? These things have so little in common, I don't even know what the fuck analogy you're trying to draw here, other than the superficial fact that both involved taxes.

A couple subjective and unsupported lines, from one cautious hero in one scene of the movie. Yet you're taking that out of context and using that to dismiss ALL the other scenes which spell out what the Trade Fed is doing...to support some surreally stupid idea that the Trade Fed wasn't acting in its interests and just doing things for no reason at all.

Yeah, because I'm basing my entire argument here on Qui-Gon's line. Nice strawman. Qui-Gon's line is simply supportive of what I'm saying: the reasons for the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo are not apparent to the audience, or the characters.

Padme is doing the usual self-sacrificing leader routine, for reasons stated by her subordinates which are entirely true. Qui-Gon is taking no chances, and is trying to persuade her to flee for safety. He says "there is no logic" in the Trade Fed's actions to bolster a claim that they want to kill her, something that is not supported by anything else in the movie. Which is understandable, since he's trying to get the queen out of there.

Qui-Gon's line here refers to the Trade Federation's actions in general - invading, occupying, etc. He thinks there's something deeper going on here, because on the surface the invasion doesn't make much sense. Of course, he's correct: the Trade Federation is actually the puppet of a Sith Lord.

Nobody understands why the Trade Federation would do something so insane, when the blockade itself was seemingly an effective way to protest taxes.

An effective protest forces political change. As of the beginning of the movie, the Senate is just being useless by "endlessly" debating things. And oh yeah: The movie FLAT OUT shows that Sidious was able to prod the Trade Fed into accelerating the plan, when they were in a moment of panic because they thought the Jedi had come to shut them down.

The movie never explains or shows how invading Naboo is in the interest of the Trade Federation. All that happens is the Jedi show up, the Trade Federation leadership gets nervous, and then Palpatine tells them to kill the Jedi and invade (for no real reason.) Really, they could just refuse to meet with the Jedi, or tell them to leave, or whatever, and continue the blockade until they get lower taxes.

No, the invasion which was already a part of the original plan was clearly the next step if the blockade didn't achieve results. The Trade Fed is "greedy" and CLEARLY acting in its own interests, even if they're being manipulated by Sidious (who still presents himself as a source of help). There is no "mystery" here. You are quite simply a unique case if you can't grasp the idea that Qui-Gon wasn't taking chances and was trying to persuade Padme to get the hell out of the war zone.

Of course Qui-Gon wanted to get Padme to safety. That's irrelevant. The point is he also thinks something is weird about the actions of the Trade Federation, because on the face of things their actions make little sense.

We never know how Palpatine intended for word of the invasion to even get out, unless he always intended for Amidala to show up...

This is simply ridiculous. He didn't forsee the Jedi's arrival, and he ordered the Trade Fed to murder the Jedi as soon as he found out about them. WANTING Padme to escape as part of the original plan requires a whole string of contrivances that run counter to his direct orders in the movie. Which must overcome the Trade Fed's near total-control of the planet's surface and surrounding space.

The VERY SIMPLE conclusion is that he wanted the Trade Fed to invade, and force Padme to sign the treaty and create an undesirable legal mess. Which the Trade Fed was proceeding with, right after landing at the palace.

You're ridiculous: all of this shit is speculation. We never know Palpatine's original plan, and other people have reached different conclusions from you, such as the owner of this site who speculates that Palpatine's original plan was to kill Padme, since he knew she'd never sign the treaty. You pretend that it's obvious to the viewer exactly what's going on, but really it's only "VERY SIMPLE" to someone completely immersed in Star Wars analysis. The fact is, the parameters of Palpatine's plan, and how Padme and/or the actions of the Senate fit into the plan or modified the plan are completely left unexplained. For all we know his evil supernatural powers gave him the foresight or something to know that Padme would escape and show up on Coruscant! A simple Google search reveals countless bloggers, fans, etc. trying to make sense out of all of it. Again, even the owner of this site goes on for like 3 paragraphs trying to make sense of Palpatine's plan. (Oh wait, that's an appeal to authority, right? ) Naturally, there's no such confusion with the plans/actions of any characters in ANH or ESB.

Again, you can argue that it doesn't really matter whether we know what Palpatine's plan is, or even that not knowing actually makes the movie better. But you can't argue with the fact that the movie gives us very little information about the whole affair. RLM's opinion is that the lack of information makes the whole movie less interesting, because it's usually more interesting if we know why characters are doing things when we see them doing it, especially in a space-opera/action movie for kids. You can disagree, or scream about how even 5 year olds understand TPM, but much of your 100-page rebuttal amounts to simply giving your own SD.net-style interpretation/analysis of the events as if that somehow refutes the overall point.

[VF5SS]

So uh, did we ever figure out why Liam Neeson and whiny Jedi went down to the planet on separate ships?

I think we should focus on the important issues

[Bakustra]

One lesser-known Jedi holy day is Scooby-Doo Reenactment Day. This is a very serious observance to make and even when on active duty Jedi try to emulate as much as possible. This is secretly why Qui-Gon accepted Jar-Jar- while the tradition calls for a companion with a specific speech impediment/accent which replaces practically every initial consonant cluster with r, Qui-Gon was a nontraditionalist. Alas, they never got a chance to pull off Nute Gunray's mask to reveal Old Man Bibble.

[Purple]

Yeah, because I'm basing my entire argument here on Qui-Gon's line. Nice strawman. Qui-Gon's line is simply supportive of what I'm saying: the reasons for the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo are not apparent to the audience, or the characters.

Maybe its just me, but reading this quote here and thinking about it I feel you all are not looking at it right.
I mean, the movie introduces us with the scene of a slow and useless senate, an outer rim that is not under republic control and generally what you might call a corrupt, Byzantine republic cluster fuck of a state. And when you look at it from that perspective, and the reality of just how freaking huge a galactic nation is you get to some quite interesting conclusions like I have when I first watched TPM.

When I first watched TPM the whole situation did not at all strike me as illogical or non apparent. However it also did not seem to be special, especially given what we see later in the movie with slavery, the wild outer rim etc. I always had the feeling as if the whole invasion/blockade thing was not something that unusual in universe. The way it was presented it just struck me as something that would happen once in every few years or so. You know, republic makes some stupid decree or law, some fringe power dislikes it so they blockade some backwater world, tensions flare for a week or two and than the republic reverses it and goes into another endless circle of debating and life returns to normal. And the only thing that made this situation special was that a certain Palpatine happened to be the senator in charge this time.

Basically, the whole thing seemed to be the galactic equivalent of the Occupy Movement. That would also explain why the republic sent two Jedi and not a hundred Jedi or some sort of army/fleet to respond. They expected the Jedi to come, wave their laser swords a bit and intimidate the trade feds and than strike a deal of some sort like they always do.


Now keep in mind, just for the record. I have no knowledge of anythign EU and don't care about it. And I believe that any discussion of the movies should be done of them and them alone. But I think you can see what I mean.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

So because SOME Senators are bought off by Sidious or the Trade Federation (with the rest too dysfunctional or apathetic to lay down the law and take military action, similar to many large government and inter-government organizations in real life), ALL of them are? The opening crawl flat out said that the Senate "endlessly debates" the crisis.

Gotta love the black and white pseudo-logic you resort to.

So let me see if I have this right. TPM reinforces the idea that the TF owns the senate both with dialogue and with action on screen, but its "pseudo-logic" to deduce they control the senate? Whether they bought off all of them or the others are too "apathetic" your own logic says they would still have control of which way the Republic would vote on taxes. You can't have the TF being able to influence the senate and at the same time have them "protesting" the same senate. That is fucking stupid lazy writing by a man too preoccupied with selling JarJar themed Hot Pocket marketing tie-ins to bother to think about his story at all.

In your mind the only relevant exposition is the opening crawl. Which by the way is how ALL movies should be. I wish Inception had an opening crawl that way I could just go back to it and read about how dream crimes work. Why would I want to be shown any of that shit? Its stupid we get it, they dream and shit explodes.

You're an idiot.

Nice comeback.

Just stating objective facts. I know how you like those.

[Jim Raynor]

You're actually comparing the American Revolution, which had many underlying causes and was concerned primarily with gaining independence from an overseas ruler, with the invasion of a random target by an aggressor? These things have so little in common, I don't even know what the fuck analogy you're trying to draw here, other than the superficial fact that both involved taxes.

Stop playing dumb. All the details don't have to line up exactly for a comparison to be made. Fact is, in actual history, people have been willing to fight long wars and die over things like taxes, or simple economic gain.

Your entire argument is terrible BTW, and I would say blatantly dishonest. Your conclusion is that the Trade Fed's actions were "unexplained" and totally illogical, despite the fact that in the movie, they were clearly evident on the surface of things. As I said before, it all boils down to "use military power to get their way."

To counter this, you make up the argument that the ground invasion was too expensive and hard for them to reasonably make. It's too expensive and hard because you say so. Something that is not at all supported by the movie, which showed that the invasion was always part of the plan, and that the Naboo could mount no serious defense of the planet at all. You claim that the blockade itself was already "effective," with NO support as to why it was effective either (it wasn't). And to top it all off, you take a couple Qui-Gon lines out of context, and draw those out to your completely unintuitive and bizarre conclusion that the Trade Fed had no reasons to do anything.

As I keep saying, you're either insane or the perfect troll.

Qui-Gon's line here refers to the Trade Federation's actions in general - invading, occupying, etc. He thinks there's something deeper going on here, because on the surface the invasion doesn't make much sense. Of course, he's correct: the Trade Federation is actually the puppet of a Sith Lord.

I see your rhetorical trick and leap in logic here. Qui-Gon says it doesn't make sense...therefore he's completely right and it doesn't make sense? Nevermind that it's pretty easy to see that the invasion accomplishes the same thing as the blockade (lock down Naboo and create an undesirable situation). Or that the Trade Fed DID in fact want Padme alive for the exact reasons stated by her subordinates.

You realize that Qui-Gon had just recently escaped attempts on his own life, right? When someone tries to commit violence or murder against you, you call them crazy or irrational. That's how people talk. Qui-Gon is there to enforce the peace. To Qui-Gon, the "logical" thing for the Trade Fed to do is to roll over for him without any resistance. And oh yeah, Qui-Gon was urgently trying to get the Queen out while enemy troops lurked in the next room. The gist of that simple scene was that Qui-Gon was trying to get the queen the hell out of there, not that he had a perfect understanding of the situation.

The movie never explains or shows how invading Naboo is in the interest of the Trade Federation. All that happens is the Jedi show up, the Trade Federation leadership gets nervous, and then Palpatine tells them to kill the Jedi and invade (for no real reason.) Really, they could just refuse to meet with the Jedi, or tell them to leave, or whatever, and continue the blockade until they get lower taxes.

Qui-Gon pretty much said he's there to shut down the Trade Fed's blockade. The Trade Fed said they feared the same thing, when talking to Sidious. I went over this how many times already?

But then again, you're a troll. I fully believe that you're intentionally dragging this thread out in circles.

You're ridiculous: all of this shit is speculation.

It's "speculation" to assume that Sidious didn't want the things that he directly ordered. It's "speculation" to assume that master chess player Sidious would take the stupid bet against all odds. When the things he directly ordered, had they gone to plan, would have benefitted him anyway, and far easier.

Again you go back to your completely brain-dead and unintuitive thought processes.

But you can't argue with the fact that the movie gives us very little information about the whole affair.

Enough for me and most of the audience out there. Enough for LITTLE KIDS to understand this movie. But I already know that you aren't as confused as you claim to be. You're actively denying what is told to you, substituting your own made-up and illogical crap to MAKE the movie not make sense.

I had a good laugh when I saw you claiming that the ground invasion was totally too hard, expensive, and illogical...for basically no reason besides YOU saying so. And oh yeah, Qui-Gon making some off the cuff statement along the lines of "These guys are crazy, they'll kill you!"

RLM's opinion is that the lack of information makes the whole movie less interesting,

Stoklasa is someone who will say anything, shamelessly embarassing himself with unbelievably stupid arguments. You make yourself look stupid by attaching yourself to him. Not that you have the legs to stand on yourself.

but much of your 100-page rebuttal amounts to simply giving your own SD.net-style interpretation/analysis of the events as if that somehow refutes the overall point.

Haha, ANOTHER repetition of your no-substance "overall point" excuse again. You're defending a guy who makes rape and poopie jokes, who thinks that it makes more sense to trek through hostile wilderness on foot than seek aid in a nearby city. Who thinks Rambo is an example of good tactics. The guy is a fool, and so are you.

[Jim Raynor]

So let me see if I have this right. TPM reinforces the idea that the TF owns the senate both with dialogue and with action on screen, but its "pseudo-logic" to deduce they control the senate?

They have enough Senators to obstruct the legal system from taking any action beyond "endlessly" debating things. They clearly didn't have enough Senators to get the taxes they want. I already said this before. This is beneath response.