Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Channel72]

The resistance. I just don't get it. Lots of pages on this thread alone on this issue, and I get it that it can be filled in next movie, but I just don't understand a galaxy of the Republic with a First Order somewhere with a secrete Republic organized resistance.

Yeah, just about everybody is confused by this. Thinking about it, it's not that strange: the word "Resistance" at first implied to me something like the French Resistance, i.e. a small guerrilla organization working inside enemy territory, that has the support of larger powers (i.e. the UK, US, etc.). But unfortunately, the TFA script is too unclear about how this Resistance is related to the Republic. Also, the metaphor breaks down because it's not like the TFA Resistance is somehow spatially confined to First Order space, so they're more like some kind of highly-mobile "terrorist" cell I guess, that the Republic secretly sponsors. Regardless, I mean, it's irritating that basic shit like this wasn't made extremely clear.

Although, the second time I saw the film, I noticed C3PO has a line where he says something like "Oh dear, now we can't rely on the Republic fleet" or something, after the Starkiller base attack. So that seems to imply that (1) the Republic often assists the Resistance, and (2) I guess the Starkiller attack really did wipe out a significant portion of New Republic military capability.

I just really, really hope that Episode 8 and 9 don't simply revert entirely to OT "Empire vs Rebellion" mode. I'm hoping the New Republic at least has some kind of important role to play in the military struggles. Otherwise it will sort of render the entire OT pointless.

My grip with Finn is that he started out as a Stormtrooper in an assault squad that actually had moral problems with his orders but then turns out to be a sanitation specialist at the base. Makes no sense.

I guess the idea is that Finn was in sanitation at the time in his career when he was stationed at Starkiller base. Presumably sometime later he became a Stormtrooper?

[Andy Wylde]

Finn stated in the movie that he and the other storm troopers were taken at birth or very young and raised, in his words, "do only one thing". He did work sanitation on SK base but he also had to go through basic training as well. He wasn't just a sanitation worker. Because it wouldn't make any sense if he was taken at birth and indoctrinated to be a sanitation worker?

But it strikes me odd how he was supposedly taken from birth/child and indoctrinated by the FO to be a killing machine. His character didn't portray him in any way of that kind. His first assignment was the first scene on Jakku. And he already had cold feet right from the get go without even firing a shot. His whole characterization was completely off to me.

If he was to claim he was a new recruit who joined as a young adult and figured out soon after he joined that the FO was full of shit and he wanted out, that would have been more believable. But why they threw in the whole "taken at birth indoctrination" thing is beyond me. They could have easily said all the ST of the FO were recruits and the film still would have worked the same.

[Galvatron]

I don't think Ford left them much choice. He wanted to be out of the franchise since the OT.
But yeah, would've been nice to see the big three together again.

Actually, Han didn't die in Arndt's draft, but reunited with Leia at the end of the movie. Abrams changed that (the reason being similar to why Obi-Wan was killed off in ANH).

Oh god can Abrams just shove off already? For me the big three are the reasons I watch the movies.

You don't think Ford had a little something to do with that decision? Do you seriously think he would have returned for Episode VIII?

[Galvatron]

I just really, really hope that Episode 8 and 9 don't simply revert entirely to OT "Empire vs Rebellion" mode. I'm hoping the New Republic at least has some kind of important role to play in the military struggles. Otherwise it will sort of render the entire OT pointless.

My hope is that it shows us the galaxy in utter chaos, with no clear governing body for first time since the formation of the original Old Republic. Whole systems will have to choose whether they prefer to be told what to do by the First Order (as Leia said in the novelization) or a return to the flawed, but democratic system of the Old Republic.

In the end, I actually hope Episode IX gives us a happy medium and Leia winds up Queen of the Galaxy and supreme leader of a benevolent monarchy.

[K. A. Pital]

A stellar monarchy? That thing would be incredibly dumb. I recall Obi-Wan's and Anakin's powerful duel and their mutual accusations right before it. "Your new Empire?" Seriously? Leia Queen of the Galaxy? Hope even Disney is not that crazy.

[Borgholio]

All I really want to see is Leia using a lightsaber and demonstrating that she had at least SOME training in the Force over the last 30 years.

[Galvatron]

A stellar monarchy? That thing would be incredibly dumb. I recall Obi-Wan's and Anakin's powerful duel and their mutual accusations right before it. "Your new Empire?" Seriously? Leia Queen of the Galaxy? Hope even Disney is not that crazy.

Yeah, benevolent monarchies are so alien to Disney...

And what the fuck kind of government do you think Alderaan had?

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, well - Star Wars existed before Disney's money-making machine.

Alderaan was a monarchy like Naboo, but it was underscored in the prequels that (at least in the case of Naboo) the Queen was an elected official, and there was no hereditary power transfer. The Senate had an elected Chancellor with a fixed term. It took Palpatine three damn movies and over 30 years to convert the thing into an Empire.

The last thing we need is a "benevolent Empire". That would be shitting all over the Star Wars legacy.

[Lord Revan]

Actually the relationship between Alderaan's monarchy and the people is unknown in canon, but in the legends the position of Queen of Aderaan was a figurehead (Bail Organa was the prince consort not the ruling monarch).

[Patroklos]

Then the Starkiller base. Everything from the reuse of a Deathstar like Mcguffin, to the sun eating bit that is very minimalist since IIRC in the ESB novelization talking about the Stardestroyer jumping to hyperspace using more energy than a star in it's lifetime or something akin to that. To even the weapon that streaked across space at amazing speeds to kill of planets in another system. While we never actually saw the Deathstar jump to hyperspace, at least the dialogue let you know it moved.

I think what you are referring to is from the Imperial Source Book, and I want to say it said an ISD hyperspace jump used as much energy as some planetary civilizations use throughout their entire history. Not inconsiderable, but nothing like the sum total energy of a star.

That book is packed away god knows where, so I can't confirm.

[lance]

I'm really not getting the Kylo Ren hate. Say what you will about his skills with a lightsaber or his knowledge of the force, but the character clearly has the establishment of an arc in this film that's meant to carry over to the next

1. He is a Vader wannabe. The actor even tries imitating Hayden Christensen's RotS "I am going evil!" mimic and gestures. But fails, miserably.
2. He is fucking ugly when he takes off the mask. Maul, Dooku and Vader had style. Fugly /= style.
Because so far he is a joke.

I felt that was the point... He's basically an unfunny darth helmet

[Captain Seafort]

I felt that was the point... He's basically an unfunny darth helmet

Indeed - he was written as a second-rate Vader knockoff, and as such succeeded in being an interesting character, whereas any attempt to create a new Vader would have failed.

[K. A. Pital]

Darth Maul wasn't a joke because he killed His Liamnesonness Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan's master, in a one-on-one duel after fighting two Jedi at once, and Obi-Wan only won by pulling off something rather crazy. Darth Emo killed a defenseless old pilot Han Solo, but fought like a total loser vs. Finn and Rey.

Darth Emo << Darth Maul << Dooku << Vader << Palpatine. So far Darth Emo is the worst. You hate him for all the wrong reasons: bad acting, bad looks, bad character writing... Not badass villainy like killing a Jedi Master, killing all Jedi, etc.

I get that he was meant to be a joke, but... Why? There is plenty of room for badass villains in SW.

[Channel72]

It depends on what you want out of a villain. If you just want another bad ass Darth Evil, fine. But good luck trying to come up with something better than Darth Vader. The other option would be to forgo a sorcerer type figure altogether, and make the bad guy something completely different, like a cunning Admiral (like in the Zahn books) or maybe a crime lord or something. But that's too risky for a mainstream movie - people expect the bad guy to whip out a cool red lightsaber.

Darth Maul was okay - I mean yeah, he's cool and all - but compared to Ren he's worse than one-dimensional. Ren at least has some connection to the actual main characters - he's Han Solo's son, so there's a serious emotional connection between Ren and Han (and probably Ren and Rey), just like how in ESB (i.e., the best movie ever), Luke has emotional ties to Vader - when Luke confronts Vader, he's fighting the man who murdered his father - (until he finds out Vader actually is his father.) The point is, these villains only work well when they have some kind of emotional connection to the main characters.

So what the fuck does Maul give us? Nothing. He's a total stranger. He just looks cool. Yeah, there's some vague thing about "the Sith are back after 1,000 years" to connect him to the main characters, but nothing remotely personal. He's just... there... and apparently he wants to kill everyone, because he wears red face paint.

[Knife]

Well unlike Dooku or Maul, we should get a full three movies out of Darth Emo and he can... gasp... grow as a character. It's almost like he acts like a spoiled child in the first movie so that he has room to grow into either a proper bad guy, redeem into a good guy, or something else.

[Knife]

Yeah, just about everybody is confused by this. Thinking about it, it's not that strange: the word "Resistance" at first implied to me something like the French Resistance, i.e. a small guerrilla organization working inside enemy territory, that has the support of larger powers (i.e. the UK, US, etc.). But unfortunately, the TFA script is too unclear about how this Resistance is related to the Republic. Also, the metaphor breaks down because it's not like the TFA Resistance is somehow spatially confined to First Order space, so they're more like some kind of highly-mobile "terrorist" cell I guess, that the Republic secretly sponsors. Regardless, I mean, it's irritating that basic shit like this wasn't made extremely clear.

Uhm, that's my quote but no worries.

Yeah, there are lots of ways to have this pan out, would have just liked a throw away line or two to clarify in this movie. They kind of have to clarify in the next movie I would assume.

Although, the second time I saw the film, I noticed C3PO has a line where he says something like "Oh dear, now we can't rely on the Republic fleet" or something, after the Starkiller base attack. So that seems to imply that (1) the Republic often assists the Resistance, and (2) I guess the Starkiller attack really did wipe out a significant portion of New Republic military capability.

At this point, I'm assuming the Starkiller base hit the nearest Republic system on the boarder to whatever territory they share. It would makes some sense to make the Starkiller base on the edge of the First Order territory facing the Republic. I'm assuming since we saw what looked like Mon Cal ships in orbit of the planet that was hit, that the major Republic force in that 'sector' was wiped out with the planet.

I just really, really hope that Episode 8 and 9 don't simply revert entirely to OT "Empire vs Rebellion" mode. I'm hoping the New Republic at least has some kind of important role to play in the military struggles. Otherwise it will sort of render the entire OT pointless.

I guess the idea is that Finn was in sanitation at the time in his career when he was stationed at Starkiller base. Presumably sometime later he became a Stormtrooper?

Yeah, makes no sense for a Stormtrooper to be a sanitation worker, even if he got into trouble and was 'demoted' after a life time of training for 'one thing'.

[Galvatron]

Maybe Finn was primarily assigned to sanitation duty while stationed on Starkiller Base. I mean, what else are stormtroopers supposed to do while they're not fighting?

[Andy Wylde]

Finn was raised from birth or as a very young child to be a storm trooper. He was actually taken from his parents and he never was given a name by them. So him doing sanitation duties on a star base has no effect on the supposed "brainwashing" the FO engages in when training storm troopers. But first and fore most he was trained as a trooper. Any other menial tasks he did doesn't or shouldn't have any impact on the training and brainwashing he had since a young kid on being a storm trooper.

It is funny how the resistance just let this guy into their HQ and made him aware of what was going on. Did the idea of double agent ever cross anyone's mind? I know not really relevant to anything. But interesting to say the least.

[Galvatron]

It is funny how the resistance just let this guy into their HQ and made him aware of what was going on. Did the idea of double agent ever cross anyone's mind? I know not really relevant to anything. But interesting to say the least.

I thought the same thing, but I think Leia would trust anyone that Han vouched for.

[Captain Seafort]

I thought the same thing, but I think Leia would trust anyone that Han vouched for.

Not just Han but whatshisface she sent looking for Luke in the first place.

[Andy Wylde]

It is funny how the resistance just let this guy into their HQ and made him aware of what was going on. Did the idea of double agent ever cross anyone's mind? I know not really relevant to anything. But interesting to say the least.

I thought the same thing, but I think Leia would trust anyone that Han vouched for.

You have a point. But also take into account that it still is a risky move. Even if Han spoke in his favor. I just read that somewhere on another forum recently about the double agent and thought it was interesting to think about. I don't really even buy into myself. Just threw it out there for fun. But I did notice when Finn first entered the resistance base he was looking around pretty suspiciously j/k

[Patroklos]

Maybe Finn was primarily assigned to sanitation duty while stationed on Starkiller Base. I mean, what else are stormtroopers supposed to do while they're not fighting?

Practicing being a stormtrooper.

It would be one thing to have stormtroopers take on collateral duties now and again. In the field someone has to dig the latrine. Someone has to cook. Someone has to sit in the radio shack. Though I imagine even squad level units have some sort of utility droid to do most of that.

This wasn't the field though. This was on their main base and we see plenty of non stormtrooper personnel doing non stormtrooper work.

Finn said that line as if sanitation was his job, not his part time collateral duty if you want to accept such jobs were left to stormtroopers (which I don't).

But lets say he was raised as a child to be a sanitation worker (which I know the movie is glib about but would be a really important job in a place like Starkiller Base). Lets say he was recently raised to stormtrooper (we know the opening was his first mission). Does anyone here believe that Kylo Ren, prosecuting what he and Snooki believe to be pretty important work, was letting boot Finn tag along with him? Like, When Phasma was picking dudes to accompany the guy who communicates directly with Snooki, Finn was who jumped out at her off the watch bill?

It was a stupid plot point. Why did he have to be a sanitation worker? What did that add to the movie? We had to know he was lying about know how to deactivate the shield? Why would a normal storm trooper know that anyway (or even Phasma for that matter)? Its not like they kidnapped some other randome stormtrooper to let them know what to do when they knew the truth about Finn. Why couldn't he be a real stormtrooper, good at combat and the like, and still have his moral dilemma? It actually makes him a shallower character. If had been a career stormtrooper, lets say just having graduated from the stormtrooper equivalent of Ranger School to join the First Order special ops supporting Kylo Ren, and knowing what he knows and having the skills he does he has his moral dilemma. A moral dilemma that can't be explained by nerves/fear from his first mission, but a cold hard calculus of his actions. This would have also let us have a reckoning, both internal and external, with whatever he did prior to his defection. But no, Disney made every effort to make us know Finn is as clean as the wind driven snow. They want to have their cake and eat it too. He was just a garbage man!

Basically Finn should have been Sergeant Hugo Stiglitz, but maybe a bit less intense.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is funny how the resistance just let this guy into their HQ and made him aware of what was going on. Did the idea of double agent ever cross anyone's mind? I know not really relevant to anything. But interesting to say the least.

I thought the same thing, but I think Leia would trust anyone that Han vouched for.

For that matter, Leia might be able to tell through the Force if he wasn't above board, though it isn't confirmed in the film weather she ever got any Force training from Luke.

[Andy Wylde]

It is funny how the resistance just let this guy into their HQ and made him aware of what was going on. Did the idea of double agent ever cross anyone's mind? I know not really relevant to anything. But interesting to say the least.

I thought the same thing, but I think Leia would trust anyone that Han vouched for.

For that matter, Leia might be able to tell through the Force if he wasn't above board, though it isn't confirmed in the film weather she ever got any Force training from Luke.

Which this right here raises a good question?

Now Leia was able to hear Luke through the force in TESB so she knew to go back to cloud city to rescue Luke. Now even if she didn't have any formal training, she is able to at least hear Luke through the force. Is she able to reach out to him through the force? Instead of looking for a map? She was able to sense Hans death or was it Kylo embracing the dark side she felt? Maybe both?

Because we see Leia have a reaction when Han is killed. So she is able to feel through the force.

[Galvatron]

But Luke is hiding on purpose. He obviously doesn't want anyone, even Leia, to know where he is. In TESB, he wanted to be found and rescued so he reached out to her with the Force.