Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Patroklos]

I am pretty sure force users can communicate with complete non force users that way, so that doesn't tell us anything.

[Captain Seafort]

I am pretty sure force users can communicate with complete non force users that way, so that doesn't tell us anything.

Since when? We've seen Obi-Wan talking to Luke in ANH and subsequently, Luke talking to Leia and Vader talking to Luke in ESB and Qui-Gon talking to Anakin in AotC. No more.

[Patroklos]

How do you think the Jedi mind trick works? Just do that, but just tell them something vice make them do that something.

[Vympel]

Then the Starkiller base. Everything from the reuse of a Deathstar like Mcguffin, to the sun eating bit that is very minimalist since IIRC in the ESB novelization talking about the Stardestroyer jumping to hyperspace using more energy than a star in it's lifetime or something akin to that. To even the weapon that streaked across space at amazing speeds to kill of planets in another system. While we never actually saw the Deathstar jump to hyperspace, at least the dialogue let you know it moved.

There's ... absolutely nothing minimalist about Starkiller Base. Its eating up an entire star. That means in a shot its expending what a star takes billions of years to use up. It expends an epic fuckton more energy per shot than either Death Star.

(and that quote you're talking about is wrong. Firstly, its not in the TESB novel, second, its about the energy countries use in their history, not stars).

EDIT: back of the napkin, from Sci Fi Fan of SB.com: the estimated energy output of the first Death Star was 10^38J. The mass of our sun is around 2*10^30 kilograms. -> 1.8*10^47 joules of mass energy -> roughly 10^45 joules through nuclear fusion. The Death Star's superlaser shot is one ten millionth of Starkiller Base's fuel requirements.

[Galvatron]

How do you think the Jedi mind trick works? Just do that, but just tell them something vice make them do that something.

And that somehow means that Force-sensitives and muggles can also communicate over long distances via the Force?

[Vympel]

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the- ... ns-ending/

The official screenplay has been sent out to the writer's guild. Among other things:

- As it says in the novel, the screenplay confirms that Kylo Ren is shocked and horrified by killing his father and is weakened by the act; and
- Rey felt the dark side when she overcame Kylo Ren. There's some indication of this on Rey's face when she starts to drive him back - she looks furious, grimacing.

[Knife]

Then the Starkiller base. Everything from the reuse of a Deathstar like Mcguffin, to the sun eating bit that is very minimalist since IIRC in the ESB novelization talking about the Stardestroyer jumping to hyperspace using more energy than a star in it's lifetime or something akin to that. To even the weapon that streaked across space at amazing speeds to kill of planets in another system. While we never actually saw the Deathstar jump to hyperspace, at least the dialogue let you know it moved.

There's ... absolutely nothing minimalist about Starkiller Base. Its eating up an entire star. That means in a shot its expending what a star takes billions of years to use up. It expends an epic fuckton more energy per shot than either Death Star.

(and that quote you're talking about is wrong. Firstly, its not in the TESB novel, second, its about the energy countries use in their history, not stars).

EDIT: back of the napkin, from Sci Fi Fan of SB.com: the estimated energy output of the first Death Star was 10^38J. The mass of our sun is around 2*10^30 kilograms. -> 1.8*10^47 joules of mass energy -> roughly 10^45 joules through nuclear fusion. The Death Star's superlaser shot is one ten millionth of Starkiller Base's fuel requirements.

Meh then I concede that point, I remembered the quote wrong. Still think the Mcguffin of a bigger badder Deathstar was meh.

[Kojiro]

From Star Wars.com:

The deadly Starkiller harvests energy from its system’s star, contains it within magnetic fields inside its base’s planetary core...

So not only are they harvesting a phenomenal amount of energy, but they're containing it with magnetic fields.

[Patroklos]

Inside the volume of maybe a few times the DSII...

[Prannon]

1. He is a Vader wannabe. The actor even tries imitating Hayden Christensen's RotS "I am going evil!" mimic and gestures. But fails, miserably.
2. He is fucking ugly when he takes off the mask. Maul, Dooku and Vader had style. Fugly /= style.
3. His boss is CGI Gollum. Screw Gollum.

To point one, that was the point! He's a lameass kid with lots of potential trying too hard, to the point where he murders his father because the Big Evil said so. To me, it'd be one thing if we were meant, by the film makers, to find Ren a truly intimidating villain. I don't think that's what he was intended to be though, so I give his presentation a pass.

Snoke? Meh. He was just a front in this film for "THE EVIL BEHIND EVERYTHING." Aside from that, he didn't play much role in the film and I kinda agree that he was just an "eh" presence in the film.

Well unlike Dooku or Maul, we should get a full three movies out of Darth Emo and he can... gasp... grow as a character. It's almost like he acts like a spoiled child in the first movie so that he has room to grow into either a proper bad guy, redeem into a good guy, or something else.

YES. This was the main point that I was trying to make. So what if he's a pathetic emo loser in this film? That's what he's supposed to be. I fully get from the film that's what the filmmakers wanted him to be. Presentation is on target.

I get the sense that Abrams is making fun of the "Well, we have to have a villain, but we can't top Vader, and if we try to copy Vader then the fanbase will knooooow." So they came out with an intentional cheap knockoff, and even made it a point to show how cheap he is by making his character insecure about it to the point where he talks to Dead Vader's mask, hacks up consoles, whines to his boss about how the light side is crashing his evil party, and then being all weepy to his dad. Before he kills his dad.

There's a lot of further development potential here. If they do nothing with him in the next film, then all of this criticism will be completely valid, but otherwise I still don't get the Kylo Ren hate.

Yeah, makes no sense for a Stormtrooper to be a sanitation worker, even if he got into trouble and was 'demoted' after a life time of training for 'one thing'.

Maybe he was assigned on StarKiller Base for all of 3 months, and ended up being in a Latreen Regiment or something. Movie is still plausible with what it presents to us I think.

[Patroklos]

To point one, that was the point! He's a lameass kid with lots of potential trying too hard, to the point where he murders his father because the Big Evil said so. To me, it'd be one thing if we were meant, by the film makers, to find Ren a truly intimidating villain. I don't think that's what he was intended to be though, so I give his presentation a pass.

Snoke? Meh. He was just a front in this film for "THE EVIL BEHIND EVERYTHING." Aside from that, he didn't play much role in the film and I kinda agree that he was just an "eh" presence in the film.

Well thats a problem then, because if Ren isn't the villian then the movie doesn't have one. What, are we supposed to be quivering over Hux, a dude who has maybe five minutes of screen time? Snooki? That lame ass hologram guy nobody knows anything about and thus doesn't care about?

Many movies usually have the Mastermind and muscle. Tarkin and Vader, Palpantine and Dooku, Palpatine and Vader, Sidious and Maul, etc. I am fine with one of these being flawed or otherwise rendered a non threat via clever plot devices or characterizations. In fact I don't have a problem with how Kylo was handled. The issue is there was no other compelling villian to carry the tension when you realize he is an emo bitch.

I suppose you can say Starkiller base can be the stand in force of nature villian, but that's sort of lame. Super weapons in SW have always been a tool of the villain to push the plot, A major plot point but no the plot itself.

[Elfdart]

Darth Maul wasn't a joke because he killed His Liamnesonness Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan's master, in a one-on-one duel after fighting two Jedi at once, and Obi-Wan only won by pulling off something rather crazy. Darth Emo killed a defenseless old pilot Han Solo, but fought like a total loser vs. Finn and Rey.

Darth Emo << Darth Maul << Dooku << Vader << Palpatine. So far Darth Emo is the worst. You hate him for all the wrong reasons: bad acting, bad looks, bad character writing... Not badass villainy like killing a Jedi Master, killing all Jedi, etc.

I get that he was meant to be a joke, but... Why? There is plenty of room for badass villains in SW.

If he's meant to be such a weak sauce villain, they could have at least found someone who kinda looked like Carrie Fisher or Harrison Ford. Or introduced a new character to be Kylo Ren's father, played by Frank Langella.

[The Romulan Republic]

I thought the same thing, but I think Leia would trust anyone that Han vouched for.

For that matter, Leia might be able to tell through the Force if he wasn't above board, though it isn't confirmed in the film weather she ever got any Force training from Luke.

Which this right here raises a good question?

Now Leia was able to hear Luke through the force in TESB so she knew to go back to cloud city to rescue Luke. Now even if she didn't have any formal training, she is able to at least hear Luke through the force. Is she able to reach out to him through the force? Instead of looking for a map? She was able to sense Hans death or was it Kylo embracing the dark side she felt? Maybe both?

Because we see Leia have a reaction when Han is killed. So she is able to feel through the force.

Quite so. As to why she couldn't find Luke... maybe Luke is blocking her somehow? Or maybe their are simply limits regarding how accurate her senses are?

I mean, fucking Palpatine couldn't find Yoda or Luke with the Force, apparently.

Anyway, as to weather Leia has training, she probably was taught be Luke for a while before he ran off and hid like a coward. Also, though, it seems to me that Force users, or at least very strong ones, tend to have some innate abilities even without training. With Anakin, Luke, and possibly Rey (fitting the theory that Rey is Luke's child), that seemed to manifest as good reflexes/piloting skill and mechanical skill. Of course, Rey also got the whole vision thing and taught herself mind tricks and basic TK in a matter of days, which I found rather implausible to the point of ridiculous. But anyway, perhaps the way that her innate abilities manifested for Leia is that she has a certain intuitive telepathic/empathic ability, even without training. That might explain how she could be an effective ambassador and politician at such a young age (though Star Wars is strange that way- see Padme).

[Kojiro]

I mean, fucking Palpatine couldn't find Yoda or Luke with the Force, apparently.

I thought I read somewhere that Yoda hid on Dagobah, specifically near that Dark Side cave, to mask his presence. Could be all wrong though.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, that sounds familiar, but I don't recall a source off the top of my head.

[RogueIce]

At this point, I'm assuming the Starkiller base hit the nearest Republic system on the boarder to whatever territory they share. It would makes some sense to make the Starkiller base on the edge of the First Order territory facing the Republic. I'm assuming since we saw what looked like Mon Cal ships in orbit of the planet that was hit, that the major Republic force in that 'sector' was wiped out with the planet.

No, they blew up the (current) capital of the Republic. Which outside sources tells us rotates among member planets, although that's not really important.

Hux in his speech says they're going to blow up "the Republic" and "the senate" and "their cherished fleet" so I'd say it's fairly clear from the movie that they just destroyed the very heart of the new Republic - which is what Hux promised they would do. And we see them do.

Deleted scenes and a character who had most of her role cut (the black woman who stands as the center of those reaction shots when the red beam of death comes in) would have made it a bit more explicit that this was the Republic Senate getting hit.

[Prannon]

Well thats a problem then, because if Ren isn't the villian then the movie doesn't have one. What, are we supposed to be quivering over Hux, a dude who has maybe five minutes of screen time? Snooki? That lame ass hologram guy nobody knows anything about and thus doesn't care about?

Many movies usually have the Mastermind and muscle. Tarkin and Vader, Palpantine and Dooku, Palpatine and Vader, Sidious and Maul, etc. I am fine with one of these being flawed or otherwise rendered a non threat via clever plot devices or characterizations. In fact I don't have a problem with how Kylo was handled. The issue is there was no other compelling villian to carry the tension when you realize he is an emo bitch.

I suppose you can say Starkiller base can be the stand in force of nature villian, but that's sort of lame. Super weapons in SW have always been a tool of the villain to push the plot, A major plot point but no the plot itself.

This is the part where I come out and agree with you, in general, that the film's cast of villians, in general, was weak and not memorable. Hux was a blustery buffoon of a general during his big "we're gonna kill the Republic" speech, though I did appreciate the fact that he seemed to stand as an equal to Ren with Snoke.

And as for Snoke, while he was certainly intimidating in appearance and voice, he was obvious an Emperor Palpatine clone (think ESB big hologram "what is thy bidding my master" scene). If anyone should be complaining about a villain aping a villain from another film, it's Snoke aping Palpy.

But when it comes to Ren, I actually found his anti-hero-not-very-evil-over-compensating villainy to be somewhat complex and interesting. A dark side user tempted by the light side, instead of this single-directional forever-will-it-dominate-your-destiny stuff is interesting! It's different and bold as a presentation of the force compared to what we had before. Despite his temptations to the light and his clear demonstration of power (thinking freezing a blaster bolt), he's not comfortable with himself, and he does evil things as a villain to make up for it. A somewhat sympathetic, or pathetic (in the sense of he isn't even confident in his evil pathetic-ness) villain, but a clear villain with clear motivations all the same.

[Patroklos]

Snooki is a cartoon. There was zero reason to go CGI with him. It was the only part of the film where I felt the they channeled the Prequels. I am sorry, but I found nothing about him intimidating or foreboding. Why does he have to be a monster (one of the WORST stupidities of the prequels was making Palpantine a monster instead of just an old guy)? A literal monster. Yeah I am sure he is going to end up being a part of some obscure alien race we have never heard of before. Whatever.

[Borgholio]

I mean, fucking Palpatine couldn't find Yoda or Luke with the Force, apparently.

I thought I read somewhere that Yoda hid on Dagobah, specifically near that Dark Side cave, to mask his presence. Could be all wrong though.

There was also something strange about the planet itself. All of the sensors on Luke's X-wing went dead once he started to land. So it could be a combination of the dark side cave and the planet itself that kept him hidden.

[Patroklos]

Or Yoda just has that ability. Ben hid successfully too.

[Andy Wylde]

For that matter, Leia might be able to tell through the Force if he wasn't above board, though it isn't confirmed in the film weather she ever got any Force training from Luke.

Which this right here raises a good question?

Now Leia was able to hear Luke through the force in TESB so she knew to go back to cloud city to rescue Luke. Now even if she didn't have any formal training, she is able to at least hear Luke through the force. Is she able to reach out to him through the force? Instead of looking for a map? She was able to sense Hans death or was it Kylo embracing the dark side she felt? Maybe both?

Because we see Leia have a reaction when Han is killed. So she is able to feel through the force.

Quite so. As to why she couldn't find Luke... maybe Luke is blocking her somehow? Or maybe their are simply limits regarding how accurate her senses are?

I mean, fucking Palpatine couldn't find Yoda or Luke with the Force, apparently.

Anyway, as to weather Leia has training, she probably was taught be Luke for a while before he ran off and hid like a coward. Also, though, it seems to me that Force users, or at least very strong ones, tend to have some innate abilities even without training. With Anakin, Luke, and possibly Rey (fitting the theory that Rey is Luke's child), that seemed to manifest as good reflexes/piloting skill and mechanical skill. Of course, Rey also got the whole vision thing and taught herself mind tricks and basic TK in a matter of days, which I found rather implausible to the point of ridiculous. But anyway, perhaps the way that her innate abilities manifested for Leia is that she has a certain intuitive telepathic/empathic ability, even without training. That might explain how she could be an effective ambassador and politician at such a young age (though Star Wars is strange that way- see Padme).

Yes the SW universe is a strange place! lol But I guess Luke is probably just really wants to be in seclusion and possibly masking his force sensitivity. That is about all I can come up with right now. But we know Leia can hear Luke through the force. Probably it will be explained that she never received any proper training. So everything that Leia does with the force is most likely just instinctual and doesn't know how to use her powers. At least not yet.

[Andy Wylde]

Darth Maul wasn't a joke because he killed His Liamnesonness Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan's master, in a one-on-one duel after fighting two Jedi at once, and Obi-Wan only won by pulling off something rather crazy. Darth Emo killed a defenseless old pilot Han Solo, but fought like a total loser vs. Finn and Rey.

Darth Emo << Darth Maul << Dooku << Vader << Palpatine. So far Darth Emo is the worst. You hate him for all the wrong reasons: bad acting, bad looks, bad character writing... Not badass villainy like killing a Jedi Master, killing all Jedi, etc.

I get that he was meant to be a joke, but... Why? There is plenty of room for badass villains in SW.

If he's meant to be such a weak sauce villain, they could have at least found someone who kinda looked like Carrie Fisher or Harrison Ford. Or introduced a new character to be Kylo Ren's father, played by Frank Langella.

I thought when Kylo took off his helmet that he looked like Gene Simmons. Or a younger version anyway I think it might be that he had the same hair style as Gene Simmons.

[The Romulan Republic]

Which this right here raises a good question?

Now Leia was able to hear Luke through the force in TESB so she knew to go back to cloud city to rescue Luke. Now even if she didn't have any formal training, she is able to at least hear Luke through the force. Is she able to reach out to him through the force? Instead of looking for a map? She was able to sense Hans death or was it Kylo embracing the dark side she felt? Maybe both?

Because we see Leia have a reaction when Han is killed. So she is able to feel through the force.

Quite so. As to why she couldn't find Luke... maybe Luke is blocking her somehow? Or maybe their are simply limits regarding how accurate her senses are?

I mean, fucking Palpatine couldn't find Yoda or Luke with the Force, apparently.

Anyway, as to weather Leia has training, she probably was taught be Luke for a while before he ran off and hid like a coward. Also, though, it seems to me that Force users, or at least very strong ones, tend to have some innate abilities even without training. With Anakin, Luke, and possibly Rey (fitting the theory that Rey is Luke's child), that seemed to manifest as good reflexes/piloting skill and mechanical skill. Of course, Rey also got the whole vision thing and taught herself mind tricks and basic TK in a matter of days, which I found rather implausible to the point of ridiculous. But anyway, perhaps the way that her innate abilities manifested for Leia is that she has a certain intuitive telepathic/empathic ability, even without training. That might explain how she could be an effective ambassador and politician at such a young age (though Star Wars is strange that way- see Padme).

Yes the SW universe is a strange place! lol But I guess Luke is probably just really wants to be in seclusion and possibly masking his force sensitivity. That is about all I can come up with right now. But we know Leia can hear Luke through the force. Probably it will be explained that she never received any proper training. So everything that Leia does with the force is most likely just instinctual and doesn't know how to use her powers. At least not yet.

I would have expected Luke to try to train Leia during the time between Return of the Jedi and Kylo Ren's treachery. But that's a long time ago, and who knows if Leia kept studying it on her own after Luke left.

On the other hand, there's no reason they couldn't have Leia whip out a lightsaber and kick ass in the next movie if they wanted to. I'd buy it. More easily than I bought Rey suddenly knowing how to do all sorts of advanced things with the Force, anyway.

[Andy Wylde]

Quite so. As to why she couldn't find Luke... maybe Luke is blocking her somehow? Or maybe their are simply limits regarding how accurate her senses are?

I mean, fucking Palpatine couldn't find Yoda or Luke with the Force, apparently.

Anyway, as to weather Leia has training, she probably was taught be Luke for a while before he ran off and hid like a coward. Also, though, it seems to me that Force users, or at least very strong ones, tend to have some innate abilities even without training. With Anakin, Luke, and possibly Rey (fitting the theory that Rey is Luke's child), that seemed to manifest as good reflexes/piloting skill and mechanical skill. Of course, Rey also got the whole vision thing and taught herself mind tricks and basic TK in a matter of days, which I found rather implausible to the point of ridiculous. But anyway, perhaps the way that her innate abilities manifested for Leia is that she has a certain intuitive telepathic/empathic ability, even without training. That might explain how she could be an effective ambassador and politician at such a young age (though Star Wars is strange that way- see Padme).

Yes the SW universe is a strange place! lol But I guess Luke is probably just really wants to be in seclusion and possibly masking his force sensitivity. That is about all I can come up with right now. But we know Leia can hear Luke through the force. Probably it will be explained that she never received any proper training. So everything that Leia does with the force is most likely just instinctual and doesn't know how to use her powers. At least not yet.

I would have expected Luke to try to train Leia during the time between Return of the Jedi and Kylo Ren's treachery. But that's a long time ago, and who knows if Leia kept studying it on her own after Luke left.

On the other hand, there's no reason they couldn't have Leia whip out a lightsaber and kick ass in the next movie if they wanted to. I'd buy it. More easily than I bought Rey suddenly knowing how to do all sorts of advanced things with the Force, anyway.

Yeah imagine Leia just finding out she is force sensitive in the OT and then battles Vader a half hour later. That was the case with Rey. But I am not counting on Leia utilizing any kind of Jedi skills in the following films. I think Luke and Rey will be the only force users on the good side. Leia will probably just be a general for the most part.

[Patroklos]

I am pretty sure Leia, a former Senator and with the gravitas of her Alderaanian heritage, probably had her hands full on the politics and diplomacy front post Endor crafting the galaxies successor state. Which is one of the reasons having her be the Rebel "general" is stupid. The overall leader Mon Mothma style? Sure, that was in her wheelhouse.