New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[Bakustra]

That said, let's start this Yuga all over again for the benefit of people coming in fresh.

Okay, let's put the "tax argument" in its proper perspective. Ignore the lust-consumed guy over in the corner shrieking about "trade franchises!! you're all weird!!". The argument is simple- because the "taxation of trade routes", intended to serve as a macguffin to get the story moving, is so vague, we simply have no idea what motivates the Trade Federation beyond "something to do with taxes", and we have no idea what they get from this plan, and so they are weak as villains and as characters.

Aha, said the lust-consumed man and his cohort, who insisted that a certain popular internet reviewer was a cartoon cat, and could not be convinced otherwise, well, they're not MEANT to be the villains, have you thought of that?

But then we face the question of who is? Palpatine is a background figure. He's no more the villain in TPM than he was in ESB. Darth Maul has one line and a precious handful of minutes of screentime. And these are our only options for antagonists. So by default the Trade Federation become our primary villain, and boy are they terrible. Again, they have no motivation, and we have no idea what they get from their villainous scheme beyond "something to do with taxes". So without that, people have invented a chain of logic, which was espoused in this thread by Lusty and Confused about Cartoon Cats, wherein they were Mad About Taxes, and trying to lower taxes, because Corporations Hate Taxes. And so they blockaded Naboo in order to get her to sign a treaty to lower taxes, which apparently were imposed by Naboo or something? And they could hold up any investigation of the crime they were committing but couldn't do anything else in the Senate? Anyways, it doesn't make sense if you think about it for more than a minute or so, but it looks good at first.

So early on in the thread's life, before it fully descended into Lusty posting what amounted to "lol" and shrieking about people being reduced to posting spam, (that would ensure that they would do some sex with him), another poster, Destructionator, proposed that the taxes were actually imposed on Naboo, and that Naboo had refused to pay them. This had a bit more evidence that you could use to support it, and was at the least equally as consistent, and so discussion turned into demanding that Lusty and Confused about Cartoon Cats show why their interpretation was the more consistent, because this unveiled a greater flaw in the film; while it was presumably supposed to be straightforward and adventurous like all the prior Star Wars movies, having two mutually-incompatible interpretations of the same events is directly opposed to it. And since Lusty and Confused about Cartoon Cats couldn't concede anything, it began to drag on. Edit: And since Lusty insists that he doesn't care about anybody else's opinions, it will continue to drag on because he'll refuse to engage in any sort of discussion that isn't on his terms. Terms of fucking, that is.

So there's the tax argument, laid out again, as Lusty has said he's leaving for the fortieth time. But at least in this incarnation, with the unveiling of his twisted lust for Oni, myself, and probably Zabs too, we might see something more entertaining.

You know what? This is the limit. When the thread degenerates to the point where it's not even about nerd ragers pretending not to understand a simplistic family movie (as pathetic as that already was) anymore, but is now about you, some troll I don't even know, posting what amounts to "ur gay," I'm done. You don't feed the trolls, and you don't argue with crazy.

I am officially walking away from this idiotic thread, filled with Bakustra's internet chest beating, Oni's long and elaborate weirdness, and your kindergarten gay insults. I'm sure you guys will declare "victory," or something. You guys deserve each other.

Lusty, how many times have you declared this? How many PMs laden with fuck-me subtext have you sent to me, declaring that you're done? (I guess you were encoding that you were swearing off of trash yaoi manga, which would be a good choice if you could stick with it- bara is where it's at.) How many roads must you walk down before you come to terms with all that twisted and violent lust?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

@G1d3on:

For the record, I hate that name. While I'll do my best not to generalize this to you, every other poster here who had a l33tsp33k name turned out to be annoying, pathetic, and banned.

Anyways, conceded on when Palpable showed up. I still contend, however, that the plot was poorly constructed due to the (more than adequately explained in the previous twenty pages) poorly illustrated relationship between him and the Trade Feds, as well as the question on whether he actually had a grand plan, or was just winging it from the start and depending on the chronic stupidity of everyone else in the movie to carry him.

I'll also point out that determining if a film (or any form of media) is 'good' or 'bad' is not nearly as subjective as some would try to make it out to be. The fact is that there are many interconnected yardsticks to measure the quality of any form of art, and many situations where you can quite objectively state that something is 'good' or 'bad' within the context of that media. You can still subjectively like them, but that doesn't stop them from being objectively 'bad'. It's the reason liking a bad movie (or song, or whatever) is called a 'guilty pleasure'. TPM, within the context of modern movies, is objectively sub-mediocre, if not outright bad, due to, among other things, its confused, aimless plot, horrible pacing, lack of characterization, flat uninteresting acting and over-reliance on special effects in an emotional void.

I'm not inclined to parrot arguments from Raynor's document, so I'll simply refer you to that with regards to the logic behind Amidala's acquiescence to Palpatine's advice.

I'm not interested in his hundred-page forum-style nitpick... I mean 'essay'. But the fact is there is absolutely no way to explain her actions that doesn't rely on reaching completely outside the movie into supposition-land, and that's a big no-no if one of the bigger plot-points of the movie relies on that action/decision. But again, that's been covered for the past twenty pages.

@Raynor: Didn't you say you were done here? Didn't you say you don't care? How many times is that now? I told you, sweetcheeks, I'm just one of the dancers here, throwing more bills in my g-string won't get me to go out with you.

[Jim Raynor]

My final post in this thread:

I now count three of you guys using gay insults and claiming that I'm "lustful" for you guys or something...for responding to your posts even as you respond to me? Yeah, this is total trolling. I won't argue anymore with you guys. Just wanted to highlight how immature and degenerate this thread is.

Man, the "Pure Star Wars" forum has gone down the tubes. The trolls run wild when nobody else cares about the place anymore.

[Bakustra]

Another problem with TPM, which Lusty will not acknowledge because it's more "subjective bullshit", is that the plot doesn't make that much sense. We have a series of coincidences which force the heroes into the pod race to win Anakin's freedom and their money. This isn't a bad setpiece and it's not necessarily a bad part of the movie (indeed it's probably the best part apart from possibly the final lightsaber battle), but the coincidences to get the characters to that point make it feel like this was part of some early treatment preserved even as the film changed completely, or else that it was added solely as a plot convenience to add a setpiece in the middle and get them to where they meet Anakin. Well, either is likely to be true, but what this means is that the movie again weakens. Here it would be stronger if Anakin and the podrace were incorporated more organically into the story. There are dozens of ways you could do this. I'll discuss one potential fix in my next post.

My final post in this thread:

I now count three of you guys using gay insults and claiming that I'm "lustful" for you guys or something...for responding to your posts even as you respond to me? Yeah, this is total trolling. I won't argue anymore with you guys. Just wanted to highlight how immature and degenerate this thread is.

Man, the "Pure Star Wars" forum has gone down the tubes. The trolls run wild when nobody else cares about the place anymore.

"Gay insults", Lusty? We are simply noting the obvious lust incarnate in your posts, demonstrating a strange obsession with Oni wherein you focus on a single post he made for all time, an odd obsession with me where you insist that I'm crazy and using this to unload mental issues (and yet I'm simultaneously trolling. Perhaps you don't know what words mean.) and yet PM me as though we're on friendly terms, an obsession where you freak out at people and insist that any intimation of homoeroticism in your posts is an insult- really, that's not a healthy way to think or to live. But you've utterly failed to leave at any point in the past when you've declared you were done, Lusty, so I doubt that this is the end.

If you take these as insults, frankly it suggests that you're not very comfortable with your sexuality and so you should probably come to terms with that, as well as with your problems with subjectivity and all that, too.

[Flagg]

What is this Jimmy Dean's 8th "final post"?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Can't... stop... giggling...

My final post in this thread:

I am officially walking away from this idiotic thread,

You don't argue with crazy. I'm done with you tonight. And I probably won't even give a crap to make my next weekly check in.

You'll be back, you adorable little painslut.

I'd also like to know where you get the impression we're using 'gay insults' against you, because so far I see none. Bakustra's just pointing out that you seem to be emotionally, near sexually obsessed with this thread, which has very little female participation and thus could be technically considered 'gay'. Zablorg's simply agreeing. I'm merely using an analogy from personal experience that happened to involve gay men, I'm a bi transvestite myself (and a damn good looking one too). The fact that you're taking such offense to the mere insinuation of homosexuality in vague, indirect relation to you, regardless of whether or not it's in an insulting context, speaks volumes of your own sexual insecurity.

[Bakustra]

So let's talk fixes for the podrace. One elegant fix that solves some of the greater problems with the prequels as a whole is to age Anakin up, or rather replace Qui-gon with Obi-wan and Obi-wan with Anakin. This creates a stronger continuity between the three with the cast, particularly with some other fixes, but more importantly it gives us more opportunities to show off the disparities between Luke and Anakin as well as their similarities. One of the things we should be doing is making the viewers see how close Luke and Anakin are, in order to strengthen all the comments about how much Luke is like Anakin in the OT, which, as it stands, are at best backhanded compliments when viewed in light of the PT.

So here's a simple, brief outline of how this would change everything surrounding the Podrace scene:

1. The characters escape from Naboo, but are looking for someplace to hide from the Trade Federation's long arm for a little while, either while they make repairs, or while they wait for the heat to die down so they can just jump to Coruscant.

2. Anakin volunteers Tatooine, his home planet, since there are a number of no-questions-asked berths they could put down in and he has family there who could potentially help.

3. They end up needing more money than they have on them to refuel/get parts.

4. Anakin has them meet his mother, Shmi, who's very proud that he's become a Jedi, and his brother Owen and his girlfriend Beru. Owen is around the same age. Anakin is idealistic, which impresses Amidala; Owen is more cynical. This is where Anakin talks about how he wants to free the slaves and that.

5. Anakin decides to enter into the pod race in hopes of winning the prize money. The racers generally treat the people of Tatooine with contempt and disgust, and are pretty clearly part of galactic upper class. Jabba is sponsoring the race.

6. Anakin gets his racer by fixing up a broken-down and cheap one.

6.5 Cutaway to Trade Fed, where Darth Maul informs them he will be taking a personal hand in the search, and introduces them to his boss, Lord Sidious.

7. The race. It's a close run for Anakin, but he wins in the end.

7.5 Maul lands.

8. During the celebrations afterwards, somebody sees Maul and things have to be quickly abbreviated as they've gotta go. Lightsaber comes out at some point.

9. They depart.

This assumes a couple other changes, but it has certain advantages, in that it allows us to learn more about Anakin's character naturally and bring in more ties to the OT, in that it creates a more compelling reason than "Your money is no good here" for the race to happen, and it adds more tension to the race as a whole.

[Zablorg]

I'll be honest, since it doesn't look like you'll trust me otherwise; the only reason I felt the need to step into this thread is because you're not the first person to lust after Oni. I went through something very similar to what you're doing in this thread, close to a year ago now. Obviously Oni and I are on speaking terms again these days, but at the time it was super awkward for both of us and I'd really advise that you just step out of the thread before you say things you'll regret. In my experience, the internet never forgets.

[VF5SS]

So uh, now that we've moved past the whirlpool of logic as presented by the prequipublicans, can we talk about Episode 2 and 3 aka the movies with only enough plot for one film? I saw an interestingly little review at Corn Pone Flicks that suggested Episode 3 is basically all we needed to tell the prequel story. As Mr. Plinkett said, the whole point of how these movies are presented is just to get Anakin into the Darth Vader suit.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I don't agree with that. I think it would have been better to see the rise of Anakin to a great Jedi, before the fall to Darth Vader. So, a trilogy, but a very different trilogy to the one we got. There wasn't enough of a rise in the movies. It was too much hinting at "ooo, look, Anakin's got good reasons for wanting to turn the the dark side" building up over the three movies and none of it was very convincing. It needed more hero Anakin, no kid Anakin, and to save the fall to the dark side entirely for the third movie.

That's how I like to picture an idealised prequel trilogy going anyway.

[Bakustra]

So uh, now that we've moved past the whirlpool of logic as presented by the prequipublicans, can we talk about Episode 2 and 3 aka the movies with only enough plot for one film? I saw an interestingly little review at Corn Pone Flicks that suggested Episode 3 is basically all we needed to tell the prequel story. As Mr. Plinkett said, the whole point of how these movies are presented is just to get Anakin into the Darth Vader suit.

I think that this is pretty accurate in that it features pretty much everything needed to tell the story. Of course, that speaks to the flaws of the presentation- the backstory is dragged out over two films where it really shouldn't be.

But what's most interesting is that the failures of TPM informed the next two movies. Looking at it, it's pretty clear that Jar-Jar was going to be a major character throughout the PT, but his role in TPM annoyed people so much and it wasn't immediately clear that he was the protagonist of the film, so he got shunted off. Which is too bad, because he could easily have provided some grounding.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Okay, throwing this out there, though it has some strong similarities to both Bakustra's and D13's ideas:

How to make the prequels better, a work in progress...

The Phantom Menace

Opening crawl:

"It is a time of revolution. The Trade Federation, a powerful group within the Galactic Republic, has lobbied bills through puppet senators that allows it to use military force against member planets who refuse to pay their debilitating taxes.

With unrest and demands for reform growing, the small but popular planet of Naboo, represented by the charismatic Senator Palpatine, has taken a firm stance against this abuse of power and boycotted Trade Federation taxes and goods. The Trade Federation, seeking to prevent this rebellion from spreading, decides to make an example of Naboo and place it under martial law until it agrees to abide by the Federation's punishing taxes.

However, the revolution has spread even within the ranks of the Trade Federation. A group of slaves, led by Anakin Skywalker, break away from their Trade Federation masters in an attempt to rescue the queen of Naboo so her testimony can be used as evidence against the Federation's evil."

The opening scenes could once again be onboard a Trade Fed ship, but this time with Anakin (probably in his late teens) and other slaves staging a mutiny and stealing transports down to Naboo's surface. They stage a brave and cinematic attack on the occupied palace, rescuing the queen, and much to everyone's dismay, her Trade-Fed appointed 'advisor', Obi-Wan Kenobi. Unfortunately their ship is shot down before they can escape and the must flee into the Naboo wilds with Trade Federation forces hot on their heels.

Queen Amidala reveals that they might get help from the somewhat xenophobic Gungans, though it will be diplomatically rough, and they travel there. They learn that the Trade Feds have also been attacking and committing atrocities against the Gungan people. They negotiate the use of a spaceworthy vessel the Gungans had in storage in return for the presence of an ambassador to represent Gungan interests in Naboo matters, and greater respect and consideration for the Gungan's insular culture. Jar-Jar Binks, considered something of an oddball among Gungans for his wanderlust and desire to meet new people, is put forward as the ambassador.

The group escapes Naboo in the damaged ship, but quickly discover that Trade Fed military patrols are monitoring almost all hyperspace routes to Coruscant. Anakin suggests they head to Tattooine, a nearly forgotten backwater planet he was born on (before getting bought by Trade Fed agents) with a strong criminal presence. There they could buy passage on secret black-market hyperspace routes to Coruscant, under the official radar.

The Neimodians, meanwhile, are frustrated with the loss of the queen. They turn to Darth Maul, an enigmatic 'free agent' that represents a shadowy benefactor who has pulled strings in the Senate to help get the Trade Federation the power it now has. Darth Maul states he will personally track the queen down and return her, by force if necessary.

On Tatooine, Anakin re-connects with some old friends, introduces the group to his mother (who had been bought and freed by a member of the Lars family after Anakin was taken away). He decides to get the money needed to purchase a ride to Coruscant by entering himself as a high-risk bet in the local pod-races. Cue pod-race scene with all that entails. During the race, Darth Maul shows up, all threatening and stuff. Just as he's about to take the queen, Obi-Wan breaks his cover and lightsabers are drawn. The winner of the fight is unclear, as Darth Maul voluntarily backs down and retreats. Obi-Wan reveals that he was sent by the Jedi Council and embedded as a spy in the Trade Federation to investigate their possible abuses of power. Amidala was the only one who really knew his true affiliations.

The group gets to Coruscant, the Senate scenes are a lot more exciting this time around, with the queen actually putting forward evidence with Jedi testimony, and Palpatine loudly calling for a full investigation into the possible corruption of Chancellor Valorum. Cue Neimodians looking rather distraught as the vote goes through and not in their favour. Palpatine informs Amidala that while it's a start, the Republic's apparatus may be rather slow in actually bringing aid to Naboo. Amidala resolves to free her people through her own means.

Obi-Wan brings forward evidence of Sith involvement with the Trade Feds to the Jedi Council (with some actual explanation of who the fuck the Sith are this time), and they agree that an investigation is needed onto why they're so interested in Naboo. A Jedi Master by the name of Qui Gon volunteers to lead it, and the whole group heads back to Naboo.

On the way to Naboo, Obi-Wan confesses to his former master that he wants to train Anakin, as he observed the kid to be incredibly strong in the force, evidenced by feats shown in both gun-battles and the pod race. Qui-Gon agrees to support Obi-Wan when they return to the council. On the planet, the group once more contacts the Gungans. With the help of the Jedi, they convince the Gungans to stage an attack on the occupied capitol of Naboo, as the Trade Feds simply won't be expecting any military force to come from that direction. Once the rebels have re-established control of the city's defenses and air force, the Jedi will lead an attack on the Trade Federation ships in orbit, driving them away and securing the planet once and for all.

Things don't go exactly as planned. The attack on the capitol is successful, but they run into Darth Maul again. Anakin volunteers to lead the air attack himself while the Jedi attempt to bring the Sith into custody. Anakin's attack is initially successful, the Jedi's are not. Qui Gon dies in the fight, and Darth Maul escapes with a grin. In space, the Trade Feds regroup and are about to wipe the floor with Anakin's small force, when Republic ships show up and claim the Trade Feds are violating Republic law. The Trade Fed ships make a fighting retreat from Anakin and the Republic while Amidala, Obi-Wan and the Gungans finish mopping up planetside.

To wrap things up, Obi-Wan tells Anakin he will train him as an apprentice, with or without the Council's approval. Palpatine shows up, says the no-confidence vote went through and Valorum was deposed. Soon elections will be held for a new chancellor, and he seems the most likely to succeed. Switch to the Neimodians, now in custody pending trial for war crimes. They're inexplicably released, and confronted by Darth Maul, who explains that his master needs their power and influence, and is putting together a new confederation that will result in them having their own empire.

As for characterization: Anakin should be a somewhat Kirk-esque figure, confident, flirting with the queen, but also incredibly noble and willing to sacrifice himself for a good cause. He should also display starry-eyed admiration and near hero-worship of the Jedi, having heard legends of their good deeds and adventures, wanting nothing more than to be a part of that and having fantasies of bravely leading a slave-liberation force on Tattoine. Palpatine should be shown as a bit younger and more openly emotional, the firey and likeable senator. Darth Maul should be similar to Anakin, confident and arrogant, but turn rather monstrous once he starts fighting, I'm thinking something akin to Highlander's Kurgan. The Neimodians and the Gungans should definitely not be speaking English (or Common), but rather a subtitled alien language. For the Neimodians it would help reinforce them as cold capitalists with severely mercenary mindsets, viewing their involvement with the Sith as more of a business arrangement than subservience. With Jar Jar, he could mostly speak the Gungan's tongue, but throughout the movie show stumbling attempts to learn Common, and his own character could be the Joe-everyman suffering culture shock that C3PO did rather well in the OT.

[G1d3on]

@G1d3on:

For the record, I hate that name. While I'll do my best not to generalize this to you, every other poster here who had a l33tsp33k name turned out to be annoying, pathetic, and banned.

Well I plan on being the exception to that rule, then.
{I operate under the handle Gideon on at least one other message board and hoped to transfer that title here, but the user name wasn't available; replacing certain letters with digits was my only real recourse without selecting an entirely different name and I'm a sucker for continuity.}

Anyways, conceded on when Palpable showed up. I still contend, however, that the plot was poorly constructed due to the (more than adequately explained in the previous twenty pages) poorly illustrated relationship between him and the Trade Feds, as well as the question on whether he actually had a grand plan, or was just winging it from the start and depending on the chronic stupidity of everyone else in the movie to carry him.

Oh, I don't know. The Jedi seemed insightful to me; five minutes on the Trade Federation capital ship and they'd already determined that something else was at work behind Gunray's actions, though they couldn't quite determine what this was. That Amidala was oblivious to Palpatine's manipulations can be attributed to her inexperience and naïveté-- which Sidious mentions to Gunray on at least one occasion. As far as Palpatine's schemes are concerned, what I took from the prequels is that Sidious was flexible; he suffers setbacks and failures throughout all three films and adapts according to the situation. I believe his original intent was to maintain the Federation blockade of Naboo indefinitely in order to milk sympathy from the Senate and further cripple Valorum's regime. When Amidala escaped and made her way to Coruscant, he simply accelerated his timetable and used her directly to call for a Vote of No Confidence.

I'll also point out that determining if a film (or any form of media) is 'good' or 'bad' is not nearly as subjective as some would try to make it out to be. The fact is that there are many interconnected yardsticks to measure the quality of any form of art, and many situations where you can quite objectively state that something is 'good' or 'bad' within the context of that media. You can still subjectively like them, but that doesn't stop them from being objectively 'bad'. It's the reason liking a bad movie (or song, or whatever) is called a 'guilty pleasure'.

While I agree that certain things about a film can be objectively examined, I wholeheartedly disagree that there is some sort of objective measuring stick for determining what is and what is not a bad piece of art. Likewise, I believe that your definition of a guilty pleasure is slightly inaccurate; someone who enjoys a guilty pleasure feels the 'guilt' because others deem the pleasure worthy of guilt. Someone who genuinely dislikes something or finds it 'bad'-- music, movies, television, books, etc.-- isn't likely to spend time listening, reading, or watching it. As an example, my music taste ranges from artists like Led Zeppelin to Journey to Katy Perry. While I wouldn't put Perry in the same category as distinguished artists like Zeppelin or even Journey {simply because their technical abilities as musicians transcend hers}, I wouldn't define her music as 'bad'. If I did, I wouldn't listen to it. I'm not sure I've ever met someone who likes things they consider to be awful.

TPM, within the context of modern movies, is objectively sub-mediocre, if not outright bad, due to, among other things, its confused, aimless plot,

I submit that the plot has a definite aim on at least three levels. On a macro level, it's about Palpatine's election to the Chancellorship; on the next tier, it's about rescuing Naboo from his pawns in the Trade Federation; on the micro level, it's about the discovery of Anakin Skywalker and the beginning of his career as a Jedi.

horrible pacing,

Elucidate, please. If by that you mean that there are sections of the film that drag, I'd agree, but then I'd also point out that I'm not aware of a single Star Wars film with the possible exception of The Empire Strikes Back that doesn't.

lack of characterization,

Again, I disagree. All of the main characters have obvious characteristics {at least to me} that are memorable. Qui-Gon Jinn is an aged maverick, a headstrong yet compassionate Jedi Master. Obi-Wan Kenobi is snarky, elitist, and a devout believer in the Jedi Council's authority-- until the death of his Master prompts him to disobey their orders by training Anakin. Padme cloaks her inadequacies as a leader {her naïveté, her inexperience, her stubborn compassion-- a trait she shares with Obi-Wan} behind a cold demeanor and outlandish fashion. Viceroy Gunray is a greedy coward who attempts to mask his fear with arrogance when he feels he's in a position of power. Palpatine is interesting because we see stark differences to his character in both guises; as a Sith Lord, he is utterly rude and ruthless, which makes for a nice juxtaposition against his role as Senator, where he is the embodiment of affability, patience, and even obsequiousness. I'd rather not devolve into this much further, though, because I think Raynor does a great job of rebutting the idea that these characters are poorly fleshed out.

flat uninteresting acting

Again, this is subjective. McGregor and McDiarmid were lauded by many reviewers for their acting throughout all three films, as was Oz. Christopher Lee was a highlight of the second film. The only one I'm definitely in agreement with is Samuel L. Jackson, who was horribly misdirected by Lucas.

and over-reliance on special effects in an emotional void.

But there is no objective measurement on what does and what does not pique one's emotions. My girlfriend, for example, is a Star Wars fan and the most emotional moment for her in all the films is when Mace Windu is killed. {Her explanation is that Windu's death symbolizes Palpatine's utter victory over the heroes; their last chance to turn the tide.} For me, on the other hand, it would probably be Anakin's murder of the children that is the most emotional.

I'm not interested in his hundred-page forum-style nitpick... I mean 'essay'. But the fact is there is absolutely no way to explain her actions that doesn't rely on reaching completely outside the movie into supposition-land, and that's a big no-no if one of the bigger plot-points of the movie relies on that action/decision. But again, that's been covered for the past twenty pages.

Well we're definitely in agreement that the prequels are flawed creatures and could have definitely been improved in many areas. {I'm actually in the process of writing a fanfic trying to redo them; I recommend Veriform's work on fanfiction.net for a stronger story.} But what I'd strongly caution you from doing is trying to mask subjective interpretation with claims objective measurement.

[Channel72]

Let's just cut the BS and list what we ALL agree on. Both "sides." Everyone, including me.

Good idea.

1. Some of you believe that the details of the trade dispute constitute the "overall plot" of the movie. Some of you believe that the Trade Fed with a trade franchise having an issue with taxes on trade requires explanation. This was a major topic of argument rehashed again and again over the course of two months, even after some of you admitted that addressing it with a single line like "We won't release your planet until the taxes are repealed" would've done next to nothing to actually change the movie.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is why we keep going in circles. You don't even know what the other side is arguing. The INVASION is the overall plot and primary conflict of the movie. The INVASION is what the good guys are fighting. The reason for the invasion (whether it's a trade dispute, taxes, whatever) is never clearly defined. All we know is the Trade Federation is upset about taxes, and are blockading a planet to protest. The logical leap from this to an outright invasion/occupation isn't strong at all. The Trade Federation characters make constant threats like "you will soon die", and they want the Queen to sign a treaty, but it all comes off as meaningless drivel since we don't even know what the consequences would be if the treaty were signed (in the way that, for example, we know what the consequences would be if Darth Vader successfully recovered the Deathstar Plans.)

The reason this thread goes around in circles is because you WON'T ADMIT that any of this is unexplained, even though you have to resort to outright speculation to explain it! You have your own THEORY about what's going on: you think the occupation/invasion/treaty was orchestrated so that Palpatine could draw out the conflict as long as possible and look like a hero in the Senate. You then inexplicably think your own inference is somehow obvious given what the movie shows us, DESPITE the fact that other people have analyzed the movie with a similar level of scrutiny and come to entirely different conclusions about how Padme and the Trade Federation fit into Palpatine's plan.

And yet, after 30 fucking pages, you haven't even so much as ADDRESSED this issue. You've literally snipped it out of almost every reply to me, and instead chose to strawman me with another "LOL you guys want everything about the tax dispute spelled out!!!"

2. Some of you believe that a specific, all-important supply must have been named as being cut off by the blockade, otherwise the blockade did "nothing" to the Naboo. One of you had a belief that hunting wildlife and eating (completely unmentioned) stocks of MREs are valid counters to a naval blockade.

Wrong again. Do you agree that the occupation of Naboo is supposed to be a major problem for our heroes? If so, then do you agree the writer of TPM is hoping that we care, or at least feel some sense of urgency, about the Naboo situation? If so, do you agree it would be beneficial for us, as audience members, to actually SEE the Naboo people suffering in some way?

You obviously know this criticism is valid; the "show don't tell" rule is pretty universal when it comes to movies. But instead of acknowledging this point, you come up with yet ANOTHER strawmen and pretend that we're annoyed that the movie doesn't explicitly tell us what type of supplies are being cut off from Naboo.

3. Some of you think it was mysterious and "unexplained" why a ground invasion to shut down a planet could be the next step of a plan to shut down a planet with a blockade.

No, we think it's annoying how the movie doesn't clearly explain how the invasion benefits the Trade Federation, even though it's the entire plot.

7. On the other hand, *I* believe that it is extremely odd, unhealthy, and embarassing for adult men to carry on in such a fashion week after week.

Yeah, it's totally insane to discuss Star Wars on a Star Wars message board. The very idea is just utterly preposterous!

[VF5SS]

I think it's extremely odd, unhealthy, and embarrassing for someone to write a novella against an internet video and totally fuck that up and deny that he has no time for debates.

Yet here we are.

Born to be younglings we're the padawans of the universe.

[Elfdart]

Putting aside the debate over whether or not Raynor's a fanwhore for the moment, I have a question: Since it's been mentioned that the 'other side' is unwilling to admit to the strengths of the film... umm, what are the strengths of TPM? Exactly what sets it apart from other films in a positive light?

I didn't know that was the subject. Then again, I'm not a spunkfelching retard like you are.

I have to disagree. Palpable doesn't even show up until halfway through the film

So you really did have your head up RLM's Stoklasshole. For the record, Palpatine appears in one of the first scenes. But then, you're just being a troll, as are the other shitstains who turned up only within the last couple of pages with nothing to offer the discussion.

I'm not interested in his hundred-page forum-style nitpick... I mean 'essay'. But the fact is there is absolutely no way to explain her actions that doesn't rely on reaching completely outside the movie into supposition-land, and that's a big no-no if one of the bigger plot-points of the movie relies on that action/decision. But again, that's been covered for the past twenty pages.

Let's apply this kind of fucktard "logic" to another plot point in the series: the birth of Luke and Leia:

But the fact is there is absolutely no way to explain the twins' birth that doesn't rely on reaching completely outside the movie into supposition-land, and that's a big no-no if one of the bigger plot-points of the movie relies on that action/decision.

Now, anyone who is not a total retard or witless troll can notice from the movie the following:

Anakin married Padme

Padme tells Anakin she's pregnant

Luke and Leia are born

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Anakin knocked up Padme and the kids are biologically his. You don't need to see Anakin fuck Padme, nor do you need a line in the script like "Anakin, I'm pregnant -and it's because you fucked me!"

Unless you're a Red Letter Retard.

But again, that's been covered for the past twenty pages.

The only thing that has been covered in this thread is the stupidity and dishonesty of Heathcliff's trolling fuckheads. You know, like you.

[Bakustra]

Putting aside the debate over whether or not Raynor's a fanwhore for the moment, I have a question: Since it's been mentioned that the 'other side' is unwilling to admit to the strengths of the film... umm, what are the strengths of TPM? Exactly what sets it apart from other films in a positive light?

I didn't know that was the subject. Then again, I'm not a spunkfelching retard like you are.

Yes, well, Melf, that's hardly news to me. I've always suspected you don't bother with anything approaching context.

I have to disagree. Palpable doesn't even show up until halfway through the film

So you really did have your head up RLM's Stoklasshole. For the record, Palpatine appears in one of the first scenes. But then, you're just being a troll, as are the other shitstains who turned up only within the last couple of pages with nothing to offer the discussion.

Palpatine as Palpatine. As a character who we recognize as SENATOR PALPATINE, he does not show up until the arrival on Coruscant. Sidious is distinct until we see them both and recognize- hey, that's the guy! But why even bother with discussion when everyone who disagrees with you is obviously a troll and mentally handicapped! Hahaha!

I'm not interested in his hundred-page forum-style nitpick... I mean 'essay'. But the fact is there is absolutely no way to explain her actions that doesn't rely on reaching completely outside the movie into supposition-land, and that's a big no-no if one of the bigger plot-points of the movie relies on that action/decision. But again, that's been covered for the past twenty pages.

Let's apply this kind of fucktard "logic" to another plot point in the series: the birth of Luke and Leia:

But the fact is there is absolutely no way to explain the twins' birth that doesn't rely on reaching completely outside the movie into supposition-land, and that's a big no-no if one of the bigger plot-points of the movie relies on that action/decision.

Now, anyone who is not a total retard or witless troll can notice from the movie the following:

Anakin married Padme

Padme tells Anakin she's pregnant

Luke and Leia are born

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Anakin knocked up Padme and the kids are biologically his. You don't need to see Anakin fuck Padme, nor do you need a line in the script like "Anakin, I'm pregnant -and it's because you fucked me!"

Unless you're a Red Letter Retard.

Show how these two things are comparable. Explain how Amidala's motivations and reason for launching the vote of no confidence are so simple that we can explain them without supposition. You haven't, and you won't, because you're not interested in even arguments, just crowing like a dying magpie.

But again, that's been covered for the past twenty pages.

The only thing that has been covered in this thread is the stupidity and dishonesty of Heathcliff's trolling fuckheads. You know, like you.

I see that you're not willing to discuss anything. Why are you still here? Do you cackle to yourself as you sit in a leaky beanbag chair, in a basement with one fixture lit, joyous at how you "owned" we "trolling fuckheads"? Is this more sick sexual pleasures, only this time masturbatory?

[G1d3on]

Explain how Amidala's motivations and reason for launching the vote of no confidence are so simple that we can explain them without supposition.

I found it pretty self-evident, actually. Palpatine's whispers into her ear serve as narration for the audience. Amidala returned to the Senate to seek aid against the Federation. Valorum, consummate bureaucrat, is cowed by the Trade Federation's representative to send a committee to investigate Amidala's claims instead of simply acting on them {which would probably be the proper decision in the real world, but I digress}, so a disenchanted Amidala calls instead for a Vote of No Confidence to remove Valorum from power. Of course even this will take time, so she elects to return to Naboo with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan rather than wait around. This is pretty clear from the source material.

[Elfdart]

Palpatine as Palpatine. As a character who we recognize as SENATOR PALPATINE, he does not show up until the arrival on Coruscant.

Wrong again, asshole. Amidala is shown talking to Senator Palpatine (the audience knows his name because Amidala is the one who calls him by name) when he asks about the ambassadors' arrival.

But why even bother with discussion when everyone who disagrees with you is obviously a troll and mentally handicapped! Hahaha!

Not everyone, but most of the fuckwits appearing in this thread to defend Heathcliff certainly are. See above for just the most recent example.

[Stark]

How is it not trolling to constantly characterise everyone who disagrees with you as buttslaves or cumdumpsters or whatever the homoerotic term of the day is ... when they haven't even watched/heard/read anything by that person?

[Bakustra]

Explain how Amidala's motivations and reason for launching the vote of no confidence are so simple that we can explain them without supposition.

I found it pretty self-evident, actually. Palpatine's whispers into her ear serve as narration for the audience. Amidala returned to the Senate to seek aid against the Federation. Valorum, consummate bureaucrat, is cowed by the Trade Federation's representative to send a committee to investigate Amidala's claims instead of simply acting on them {which would probably be the proper decision in the real world, but I digress}, so a disenchanted Amidala calls instead for a Vote of No Confidence to remove Valorum from power. Of course even this will take time, so she elects to return to Naboo with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan rather than wait around. This is pretty clear from the source material.

So why does she do it, then? Because there will be a delay either way, and she can still run back to Naboo either way, and Valorum is removed from power and Palpatine granted it within the space of a few scenes, and then Palpatine is the one that tells her she'll have to wait. So it seems contrived to put Palpatine in power, rather than being organic.

Here's a way to fix this situation- have Palpatine be obviously villainous and not affiliated with Amidala, and have him launch the vote independently (this also makes more sense than what is essentially a witness doing so) once the objections start to surge, or even before Valorum can do anything. Then we have a better reason for Amidala to return and we can see Palpatine as a figure of menace the characters have to work around. We can then set up the Rebellion throughout Episodes 2 and 3 with the knowledge that Palpatine is a dangerous demagogue. We can even play up his connections to Julius Caesar and Hitler more, in exchange for losing a little of the Abraham Lincoln connection.

Palpatine as Palpatine. As a character who we recognize as SENATOR PALPATINE, he does not show up until the arrival on Coruscant.

Wrong again, asshole. Amidala is shown talking to Senator Palpatine (the audience knows his name because Amidala is the one who calls him by name) when he asks about the ambassadors' arrival.

Ordinarily, I'd say, "My mistake", but I noticed that you snipped out everything else and ignored it. You're, again, uninterested in discussion, since you're just zeroing in on perceived points of weakness and responding to them and them alone. You're either trolling, actually trolling, or too cowardly to actually respond to words on the Internet. Both make you utterly contemptible.

But why even bother with discussion when everyone who disagrees with you is obviously a troll and mentally handicapped! Hahaha!

Not everyone, but most of the fuckwits appearing in this thread to defend Heathcliff certainly are. See above for just the most recent example.

You jealous, Elfy? Well, I've never watched anything by cartoon cats, or RedLetterMedia, which is what I assume you to be talking about, but I still wouldn't fuck you no matter how homoerotic your posts become. (PS: Your now-noticeable fetish for the mentally handicapped is really making me queasy.)

[G1d3on]

So why does she do it, then?

Because she believes Palpatine to be a better alternative than the incompetent and spineless Valorum. He abandoned her in their greatest time of need, and her own words to Palpatine before she departs for Naboo indicates that she has faith that he'll restore integrity to the Senate.

Because there will be a delay either way, and she can still run back to Naboo either way, and Valorum is removed from power and Palpatine granted it within the space of a few scenes, and then Palpatine is the one that tells her she'll have to wait. So it seems contrived to put Palpatine in power, rather than being organic.

Palpatine told her she'd have to wait when she initially refused to call for a Vote of No Confidence in Valorum, instructing her that their only other recourse would be to bring the issue before the Supreme Court.

Here's a way to fix this situation- have Palpatine be obviously villainous and not affiliated with Amidala, and have him launch the vote independently (this also makes more sense than what is essentially a witness doing so) once the objections start to surge, or even before Valorum can do anything. Then we have a better reason for Amidala to return and we can see Palpatine as a figure of menace the characters have to work around. We can then set up the Rebellion throughout Episodes 2 and 3 with the knowledge that Palpatine is a dangerous demagogue. We can even play up his connections to Julius Caesar and Hitler more, in exchange for losing a little of the Abraham Lincoln connection.

That's a little clichéd and blatant, don't you think? The whole point behind Palpatine's rise to power is that he did it in such a way that wasn't "obviously villainous." This is the reason why Lucas didn't make him a conquering warlord or tyrannical demagogue to begin with and I think the story is infinitely richer for it. Lucas reserves Palpatine's mustache-twirling moments for scenes in which he's Darth Sidious, the man who rules his minions through fear.

[Bakustra]

So why does she do it, then?

Because she believes Palpatine to be a better alternative than the incompetent and spineless Valorum. He abandoned her in their greatest time of need, and her own words to Palpatine before she departs for Naboo indicates that she has faith that he'll restore integrity to the Senate.

What makes you think he's weak? He sent a team of Jedi to stop the blockade, which would have succeeded if not for factors he didn't know about, tried to do an end-run around Senatorial procedures- there's not a lot to show that he's weak as opposed to the Republic being fucked up or even Amidala being dissatisfied with the Senate not believing her immediately (which damages her character as we are meant to interpret it) and refusing to comply with the law.

Because there will be a delay either way, and she can still run back to Naboo either way, and Valorum is removed from power and Palpatine granted it within the space of a few scenes, and then Palpatine is the one that tells her she'll have to wait. So it seems contrived to put Palpatine in power, rather than being organic.

Palpatine told her she'd have to wait when she initially refused to call for a Vote of No Confidence in Valorum, instructing her that their only other recourse would be to bring the issue before the Supreme Court.

And then she is told she has to wait for Palpatine to get into power, at which point she decides to leave. This is the scene after Anakin gets tested in the Jedi Temple. Like I said, there's a delay either way, and it is, I think, reasonable to assume that a change of government would mean delays.

Here's a way to fix this situation- have Palpatine be obviously villainous and not affiliated with Amidala, and have him launch the vote independently (this also makes more sense than what is essentially a witness doing so) once the objections start to surge, or even before Valorum can do anything. Then we have a better reason for Amidala to return and we can see Palpatine as a figure of menace the characters have to work around. We can then set up the Rebellion throughout Episodes 2 and 3 with the knowledge that Palpatine is a dangerous demagogue. We can even play up his connections to Julius Caesar and Hitler more, in exchange for losing a little of the Abraham Lincoln connection.

That's a little clichéd and blatant, don't you think? The whole point behind Palpatine's rise to power is that he did it in such a way that wasn't "obviously villainous." This is the reason why Lucas didn't make him a conquering warlord or tyrannical demagogue to begin with and I think the story is infinitely richer for it. Lucas reserves Palpatine's mustache-twirling moments for scenes in which he's Darth Sidious, the man who rules his minions through fear.

For fuck's sake. The man is a cackling incarnation of evil who chews through scenery like it's going out of style when we first get his hologram onscreen in TESB. Palpatine as Julius Hitler-Caesar works better than as a master of disguise, and it can easily explain why he's able to hide from the Jedi without any "shroud of the darkside" stuff- the dark side would be strong with him regardless of whether he were a trained Sith or not. And the story of how someone duped a bunch of people to become king and then turned out to be evil is a lot less powerful and a lot less compelling than the story of how someone obviously evil and crazy became ruler- and nobody stopped him. And the movies can do that, and it's something much subtler than what we get on screen.

[G1d3on]

What makes you think he's weak? He sent a team of Jedi to stop the blockade, which would have succeeded if not for factors he didn't know about, tried to do an end-run around Senatorial procedures- there's not a lot to show that he's weak as opposed to the Republic being fucked up or even Amidala being dissatisfied with the Senate not believing her immediately (which damages her character as we are meant to interpret it) and refusing to comply with the law.

I should have clarified; the "incompetent and weak" Valorum is the one that she perceives following his refusal to act immediately on her claims.

And then she is told she has to wait for Palpatine to get into power, at which point she decides to leave. This is the scene after Anakin gets tested in the Jedi Temple. Like I said, there's a delay either way, and it is, I think, reasonable to assume that a change of government would mean delays.

Yes, but you mentioned the scene in which Palpatine informs Amidala that she's going to have to accept the Federation's occupation of Naboo. Regardless of the delay, Amidala feels that she has removed a facilitator of political corruption from power and that the benefits will soon follow. This is tragic irony, of course, given that the one whom she replaces him with is an even greater source of corruption.

For fuck's sake. The man is a cackling incarnation of evil who chews through scenery like it's going out of style when we first get his hologram onscreen in TESB.

Actually, I don't think he cackles once in The Empire Strikes Back; he seems pretty calm.
Palpatine, even in the classic trilogy, is a man who masks his true nature behind a facade. In the original films, it was a facade of weakness-- relying on his cane publicly, referring to Vader as "friend," and keeping the cackling to a minimum until he's alone with Vader and Luke.

A cackling psychopath isn't likely to gain support in a political setting and I think even the most ardent apologist would have a hard time suspending their disbelief at the idea of a hooded, wrinkled Sith Lord maniacally carving his way through the Senate and achieving utter power.

Palpatine as Julius Hitler-Caesar works better than as a master of disguise, and it can easily explain why he's able to hide from the Jedi without any "shroud of the darkside" stuff- the dark side would be strong with him regardless of whether he were a trained Sith or not. And the story of how someone duped a bunch of people to become king and then turned out to be evil is a lot less powerful and a lot less compelling than the story of how someone obviously evil and crazy became ruler- and nobody stopped him. And the movies can do that, and it's something much subtler than what we get on screen.

I completely and utterly disagree. It's more powerful that the Senate and characters relinquish power to him voluntarily and as they realize their mistake, try to stop him. I don't see how blatant terrorism and unfettered maniacal psychopathy breeds subtlety.

[Channel72]

I found it pretty self-evident, actually. Palpatine's whispers into her ear serve as narration for the audience. Amidala returned to the Senate to seek aid against the Federation. Valorum, consummate bureaucrat, is cowed by the Trade Federation's representative to send a committee to investigate Amidala's claims instead of simply acting on them {which would probably be the proper decision in the real world, but I digress}, so a disenchanted Amidala calls instead for a Vote of No Confidence to remove Valorum from power. Of course even this will take time, so she elects to return to Naboo with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan rather than wait around. This is pretty clear from the source material.

I agree it's pretty clear that Amidala is supposed to be frustrated with the Senate's bureaucratic nonsense, so she flips out and declares a Vote of No Confidence. Obviously, the intention here is to show that the Senate is corrupt and ineffective. The only problem I have with this scene is that, the way it's written, rather than portraying an ineffective Senate mired in corruption and bureaucracy, it portrays a Queen who flips out immediately when she doesn't get her way. Rather than showing Amidala present her case and bring forth evidence by, e.g. bringing in the Jedi to testify, showing the ship's sensor logs, showing R2-D2's memory banks, etc., she just flips out when Valorum requests that a committee be sent to Naboo to investigate. Whether or not Valorum is corrupt or incompetent, his suggestion to send a committee to investigate the situation is totally reasonable, given that Amidala has (inexplicably) failed to provide any evidence of the invasion. As soon as Valorum suggested the committee, Amidala should have brought forth evidence to validate her claims. But instead she just flips out and declares a vote of no confidence.

Again, this is one of those issues which has been debated to death previously in this forum. Prequel defenders will come up with all sorts of excuses to explain why Amidala didn't bring forth evidence - the most common excuse is that it wouldn't have even mattered if she did, because the Senate was hopelessly corrupt. Of course, this is just begging the question: the whole point of this scene should be to SHOW US that the Senate is hopelessly corrupt. But all it really shows us is that Amidala is really impatient, incompetent or easily manipulated.