Eclipse vs Executors

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:22pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:While the Executor can take the simultaneous ramming of 3 full up ISDs on one shield section. You aren't proving a difference.

We don't know it was one section and as I remember someone said the shields failed, we also know that the Executor has never been acredited with similar capabilities.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 05:22pm

I want to condense a few things to clear up a lot of the confusion so here goes my normal numbered point by point response.

1) The Eclispe having more firepower than the Death Squadron only proves that it has a SL...nothing more.

2) Both ships can take ramming attacks and keep on ticking (the Eclispe it has never been demonstrated though so yo'll excuse me if I remind you all that we have no idea about how many ships it can take and over what lengh of time).

3) The Executor VASTLY outguns the Eclipse in terms on non-SL weaponry.

Conclusions:
So long as the Executor does not wander into the path of the SL there is no reason to believe that it can't use its superior secondary firepower and nearly equal shielding to batter the Eclipse apart.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:39pm

First off you went onto an entirely SEPERATE point that shoudl have been a seperate post NOT an edit. Furtehermore the Eclipse retains that firepower edge exclusively because of the SL, I am eliminating that from this scenario (via excellent sailing) as it is a trump card for the ESSD

We could go on an entire thread on wheter the Executor could or could not

Way to isolate my statement and ignroe the whole point, you're doing a good RSA imeprsonation. Now why don't you read EVERYTHING I wrote then respond again. Alternatively you could edit your pst to make an entirely new point on the subject and continue to ignroe what I'm saying

I'm not isolating anything, what are you talking about? I only showed a new point, whats wrong with bringing up a relevant point? Am I to be insulted to the degree I feel deeply insulted?
I merely point out that you're right, the true point is instead that the rebels could have thrown more firepower at the Eclipse than they could have at the Executor but chose not to.

There's a difference between ineffective and taking the route that produces orders of magnitude fewer casualties. Simply because a minority of their firepower was ineffective does NOT mean that the majority would be

I feel that the alternative was so risky that it indicates the futility of even trying.
The NR should have easily been able to gather a big enough fleet to take down an Executor, not so with the Eclipse, the NR's been facing Executors before, they've always been able to take them out conventionally, even favoring it, this time it was not so.
I believe it was due to the Eclipses superior shields wihch means it can sit and take fire while picking of it's enemies without much risk.

Once again damage stats are a game mechanic and therefore useless. They exist solely to provide playability (in the same way that fighters can only go 100 mps in the flight sims) and are not a useful tool except comparatively in which case 8D starfighter scale is much less than even the 5D capship scale TLs.

Then how the do you compare anything?

Are disconnected from reactor power, note the lack of correlaiton between the two in AOTC:ICS

They're somewhat correlated, refer to the EGWT too, but not directly correlated.

you've never provided proof of this only assetion based on conjecture. The most extreme example in either ship's case is the ability to survive ramming other major combatants which is HIGHLY suggestive of shielding differences less than one order of magnitude

No, thats an assumption, the shield difference is unknown.
And yes that is extreme for the Executor if the saying about it's shields failing are true, but for the Eclipse, it's nothing.

Lets review, WEG classifies a ship known as the "Super Star Destroyer" at 8Km in length. This ship is NOT an Executor and thus attempting to apply its stats to the vessel in quesiton is like giving the Eclipse the stats of the Rand Ecleptic just be cause the names look similair

This ship is an Executor class, it's been made clear in all the additional novels, most of all the Black Fleet Crisis, it's not two separate ships, it's just a contradiction.

Secondly as to the Eclipse's secondary weapon the WEG source is the ONLY source for weapons count so unless you have opther evidence those are the numbers to use

Hence why I will accept them, I just maintain they're unreliable bullshit.

WTF are you saying here?

I thought it was clear, their relative firepower should be the same I think.

1) The Eclipse doesn't get any mroe unless you have evidence to show the WEG numbers are wrong. I don't use WEG numbers for the Executor because they don't exist (numbers exist fo an 8Km SSD but not a 17.6Km Executor)

They refer to the same ship, the 8km vessel in Black Fleet Crisis is explicitly said to be an Executor-class, it's a contradiction.

2) Damage mechanics are a game mechanic and NOT indicative of real world firepower (just as the flgiht sims fudge firepower, speed, etc, in order to be playable). Additionally you aren't taking into account the differecne between starfighter scale and capship scale damage

True, I am not even factoring in the 500 laser cannons at all, I totally ignored them.

3) You'd be comparing against MonCal vessels not including Home One whose armament (due to its greater length and volume) is assuredly greater, and other MonCal ships greater in size than the 1200m "Liberty" variants (which are, universally, the only ones described in the EU material).

I was bein rather conservative in my estimates.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:43pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:1) The Eclispe having more firepower than the Death Squadron only proves that it has a SL...nothing more

It speaks more of reactor power.

2) Both ships can take ramming attacks and keep on ticking (the Eclispe it has never been demonstrated though so yo'll excuse me if I remind you all that we have no idea about how many ships it can take and over what lengh of time)

Executor barely took it, in reference to the ESSD diminutive terms are used, to what degree it is, is purely subjective.

Conclusions:
So long as the Executor does not wander into the path of the SL there is no reason to believe that it can't use its superior secondary firepower and nearly equal shielding to batter the Eclipse apart.

I'm in disagreement on that, I think the Executor could hammer on the ESSD until the cows come home.

I need more evidence for such an assertion though, but as I do not have it, I will make no such assertion

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 05:45pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:While the Executor can take the simultaneous ramming of 3 full up ISDs on one shield section. You aren't proving a difference.
We don't know it was one section and as I remember someone said the shields failed, we also know that the Executor has never been acredited with similar capabilities.

We also know that the Eclipse has never demonstrated its ability to ram through ships at will...your point?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 05:47pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:1) The Eclispe having more firepower than the Death Squadron only proves that it has a SL...nothing more
It speaks more of reactor power.

Which you have yet to show proves anything other than it is the reactor power neccessary to run the SL and grav wells.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:53pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:We also know that the Eclipse has never demonstrated its ability to ram through ships at will...your point?

That it can.

Which you have yet to show proves anything other than it is the reactor power neccessary to run the SL and grav wells.

Why, why, is it that the mere existance of those systems require them to draw power all the time?

I refer to the Darksaber incident again.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 06:09pm

Anyhow I'm going to stop posting in this thread, it's useless to have two discussions going.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 06:46pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:We also know that the Eclipse has never demonstrated its ability to ram through ships at will...your point?
That it can.

Which you have yet to show proves anything other than it is the reactor power neccessary to run the SL and grav wells.
Why, why, is it that the mere existance of those systems require them to draw power all the time?

I refer to the Darksaber incident again.

I'm gonna hit on this here (and you can reply here or the other thread).

1) You design a ship's systems to operate together (what's the point of having grav wells if you have to shunt weapons pwoer to run them?)

2) The corrollary to this is that the SL and TLs should be (assuming competent design) bullt to workat the same time.

3) This means that the total system power is enough to run the SL and the TL suite.

4) Shutting off the SL doesn't make your TL suite more powerful, it will only ever be as powerful as it was originally designed...in other words the power left over after being devoted to the SL.