Rebels: Terrorists or Freedom Fighters (Battle of Endor too)

[Noble Ire]

Why not? Grand Moff Tarkin wielded enormous power in Oversector Outer and the territory he administered was absolutely vast. How many atrocities on Earth have gone completely unpunished and unrecognized? Now multiply that by near-infinity and you have the territory the Empire must administrate and pacify.

I could buy this explanation for the multitude of obscure, single-world species that the Empire enslaved or destroyed, but species like the Mon Calamari and the Wookiees were major parts of the Old Republic. Both had influential representatives in the Imperial senate up until at least the end of the Clone Wars. The Wookiees were renowned from one side of the galaxy to the other for their technical skill, and they played a pivotal role in galactic exploration. Mon Calamari shipwrights were revered, and their often explosive confrontations with their Quarren neighbors had been making galactic headlines for decades. There is absolutely no way that those groups could have been made a virtual slave class without word getting back to Coruscant. Palpatine and his advisors had to have allowed it. Hell, Grand Moff Tarkin openly owned a Mon Calamari slave before he was freed by the Alliance.

So Grand Moff Tarkin is the majority of the Imperial administrative apparatus?

I was citing him as an example; still, he was an extremely important official in the Empire, high enough in status to exert authority over Lord Vader himself. Even if every member of Palpatine's Council were squeaky clean, and they were not, Tarkin's presence alone casts a dark shadow on his intentions.

He was certainly not an advisor.

Perhaps not in any official capacity, but the two had known each other since well before the Clone Wars. Palpatine approved the Tarkin Doctrine at his behest. They worked closely together on the Death Star project, as ROTS shows. You can judge a man by the friends he keeps, as they say.

And the Wookiees not only aided and abated known and wanted Jedi traitors, but actively resisted Imperial military forces.

Again, obey the law and life is good. Don't, and you get what you should expect.

You're telling me that you believe that every single Wookiee on the face of the planet was aiding the "Jedi traitors"? And that they were unjustified in defending themselves when star destroyers began to burn their cities from orbit and disgorge stormtroopers onto Kashyyyk's surface virtually without warning? By your reasoning, the Jews of Poland deserved what they got because some resisted when Hitler's war machine smashed through their borders.

That was not your argument initially.

My argument was that there were many lunatics in power, and you countered by saying that there were none. I demonstrated that such an assertion is patently ludicrous.

Because of the power and influence wielded by those in charge of their respective territories. Things of this magnitude can be hidden easily. The Death Star's construction, in both cases, for example, or the burying of Lusankya on Coruscant.

See above. Even if the Mon Calamari and Wookiee homeworlds were completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy, their isolation in itself would have caught people's attention. Certainly, Palpatine's many agents would have picked up on it.

I never said it did. The Empire was just as capable of doing good (which it did) as it was of doing evil. The Empire is not a monolithic extension of Emperor Palpatine's personal will, nor is it the baby-punching, puppy-killing, moustache-twirling Nazi extravaganza you portray it as.

And the Third Reich galvanized Germany's economy and revolutionized its infrastructure. Hell, they gave us the VW Bug. Does that make the Nazis any less reprehensible?

You completely misunderstand. Yes, the Emperor was both head of state and government, and held enormous constitutional power, but he did not run the Empire. As both Hoth, Grand Vizier Sate Pestage actually ran the day-to-day affairs of the Empire, with the Emperor a reclusive man probably more content to study the Dark Side.

I now that. But Palpatine's word was still law, and Pestage obeyed him absolutely. The Emperor must have known of the crimes being committed by his servants, and he did nothing to stop them unless his image was threatened.

It is certainly better for the vast majority of sentient beings to be living in "luxury-liner" worlds, rather than no one under the New Republic. People were better off under the Empire.

Oddly enough, I don't recall any mention of the entire inner territories being engulfed by flame, even during the Yuuzhan Vong War. The worlds of which you speak were largely unaffected unless they were directly targeted by warlords or invaders; next to the suffering that already existed on the Outer Rim, the added chaos that the NR allowed is rather minimal.

And what makes you think citizens did not have those rights? Does it even matter if they do not have those rights if the people live in peace, security, and happiness?

Imperial citizens could be taken away to prison worlds or made to “vanish" if they spoke publically against the Empire. The free Galactic Holonet was either assimilated for government use or dismantled, and local media networks were brought under Imperial domination. The subjects of Palpatine only ad the rights he saw fit to give them. Would you like to live in a world where you were only allowed to live comfortably as long as you swallowed the party line and looked the other way as your friends and family, anyone who dared to speak out against the injustices just below the surface, disappeared? I certainly would not.

[Flagg]

Is it just me, or is this twat using almost the exact same argument many Hitler and Nazi apologists use routinely?

[Isolder74]

Is it just me, or is this twat using almost the exact same argument many Hitler and Nazi apologists use routinely?

Oh yes he sure is.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Is it just me, or is this twat using almost the exact same argument many Hitler and Nazi apologists use routinely?

Not the first time either, going by his posts in this thread: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=200

[Isolder74]

If I understand the opening scene of Jedi correctally it appears that the Death Star II was being built by the Imperial version of Construction Battallians.

Still saying that the Rebels in killing those construction workers building a weapons platform hold no water. its like saying the the Japaneese shooting and killing civial contractors at Wake island, why the CB's were formed in the first place BTW, was an act of terror. Those workers were building defences for the island and as such were legitimate targets.

[TC Pilot]

I could buy this explanation for the multitude of obscure, single-world species that the Empire enslaved or destroyed, but species like the Mon Calamari and the Wookiees were major parts of the Old Republic.

And so was the Force and the Jedi, yet by ANH virtually all knowledge of either is all but lost. The Empire had no difficulty accepting the claim made by Catalog of Intelligent Life in the Galaxy that Mon Calamari was only discovered recently.

Keep in mind the Old Republic actually condoned Czerka Corporation's mass-occupation of Kasshyyk (more akin to a buy-out than military takeover) and the enslavement of Wookiees. Further, Trandoshans were notorious slavers, in spite of being members of the Republic for millennia.

Perhaps not in any official capacity, but the two had known each other since well before the Clone Wars. Palpatine approved the Tarkin Doctrine at his behest. They worked closely together on the Death Star project, as ROTS shows. You can judge a man by the friends he keeps, as they say.

So acquaintance equals complicity? Tarkin is the Emperor's subordinate in an enormous hierarchical government in charge of the vast majority of the galaxy, not his friend.

You're telling me that you believe that every single Wookiee on the face of the planet was aiding the "Jedi traitors"?

And are you telling me every single Wookiee on the face of the planet was enslaved?

By your reasoning, the Jews of Poland deserved what they got because some resisted when Hitler's war machine smashed through their borders.

Excuse me? Was it not you that said because Palpatine was evil, "thus so were all his instruments of domination until his destruction and, to some extent, for decades after"? By your reasoning, Wookiees and Alderaanians were traitors because their leaders were. Apply your moral reasoning to everyone, not just selective "bad guys".

My argument was that there were many lunatics in power, and you countered by saying that there were none. I demonstrated that such an assertion is patently ludicrous.

I made no such claim. You still have yet to prove the Emperor "filled the upper eschelons around him with zealots, ruthless, barely-contained despots, slavers, xenophobes, and psycopaths".

See above. Even if the Mon Calamari and Wookiee homeworlds were completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy, their isolation in itself would have caught people's attention. Certainly, Palpatine's many agents would have picked up on it.

Why? Because you say so? My boss at my job hides things from his superiors all the time. Are you saying this could not possibly happen in a nearly infinitely larger scope of the Galactic Empire? You're talking like a minimalist here.

And the Third Reich galvanized Germany's economy and revolutionized its infrastructure. Hell, they gave us the VW Bug. Does that make the Nazis any less reprehensible?

So every Nazi is guilty of slaughtering ethnic minorities? The Hitlers, Himmlers, Heydrichs, SS-Gestapo were reprehensible for their actions, much like the COMPNOR and ISB political lackeys are often scumbags

I now that. But Palpatine's word was still law, and Pestage obeyed him absolutely. The Emperor must have known of the crimes being committed by his servants, and he did nothing to stop them unless his image was threatened.

And assumptions that he knows every minute detail of the goings on of an unfathomably large government means nothing. Do you want a debate, or do you want to throw uninformed opinions around? Proof might help to back up your claims.

Would you like to live in a world where you were only allowed to live comfortably as long as you swallowed the party line and looked the other way as your friends and family, anyone who dared to speak out against the injustices just below the surface, disappeared? I certainly would not.

The Empire does not exist in a vacuum. Would you rather live in a safe, secure society full of prosperity and luxury or one full of corruption, constant brush-fire wars and infighting with an ineffectual government? Under the Empire, peoples lives improved, things got done. Why should anyone want to live in a state that, according to the Black Fleet Crisis, was designed so things wouldn't get done?

Is it just me, or is this twat using almost the exact same argument many Hitler and Nazi apologists use routinely?

Only if you completely misread my words.

Not the first time either, going by his posts in this thread: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=200

Pure nonsense. You would be well-off to cease in your inaccurate and false analogies.

[Isolder74]

Let me understand you correctally, you are claiming because somehow Tarkin acted out of line that makes the Empire not evil for the destruction of Alderaan? Are ytou saying that because Tarkin was the big man on Death Star that his acts of terror were not approved by the Emperor?

What Part of Dantooine is to remote to be an effective demonstration do you not understand.

Tarkin intended to blow up Alderaan from the start! The Tarkin Doctrine is stated right out in the movie, fear will keep the local systems in line. fear of this battle station. Tarkin needs a scape goat to use the death star on to so that the galaxy gets the point.

What you say is the same as saying sure Hitler was evil but he made sure the trains ran on time!

[TC Pilot]

Pardon me, but I am short of time. I'll try and answer you as best I can in the time available.

Let me understand you correctally, you are claiming because somehow Tarkin acted out of line that makes the Empire not evil for the destruction of Alderaan?

Because Tarkin acted outside his jurisdiction and without obtaining approval from the Emperor.

Are ytou saying that because Tarkin was the big man on Death Star that his acts of terror were not approved by the Emperor?

No. I am saying because Tarkin did not have the Emperor's approval to destroy Alderaan, he did not have approval from the Emperor to destroy Alderaan.

Tarkin intended to blow up Alderaan from the start!

And it still does not change the fact he did not have the Emperor's approval to do so.

If the Empire is evil for Tarkin's actions, then Alderaan is treasonous for Bail Organa's. Either way, if acting alone or against a planet in rebellion, the Empire is in the clear.

The Tarkin Doctrine is stated right out in the movie, fear will keep the local systems in line. fear of this battle station.

That is Tarkin's personal appraisal of the matter, and he does not make Imperial policy. Ruling Councilman Ars Dangor, de facto administrator of the galaxy at the time and the man who actually promoted Tarkin to Grand Moff of Oversector Outer says the following: "We rule through might and fear—fear of the chaos that would ensue should the Imperial government falter."

What you say is the same as saying sure Hitler was evil but he made sure the trains ran on time!

It is not. Grand Moff Tarkin did not rule the Empire, HIM Palpatine I did.

You need to distinguish the two arguments; the destruction of Alderaan is not justified because the Empire kept most of the galaxy safe, happy, and prosperous. I never claimed that. Rather, the destruction of Alderaan is not the responsibility of the trillions, nay quadrillions of Imperial citizens who lived happily under the Empire, it is Tarkin's.

[Isolder74]

So you are playing the plausible deny ability BS I see.

Because Tarkin is acting on his own, not sure how you can claim that with Vader there, that his evil act and his statment about the rule through fear of possible act of force that is stated right out was somehow not Imperial policy only by using the apologenic statment by a pr man you claim outranks Tarkin.

The Rule by Fear of force policy is CLEARLY STATED in multiple sources.

[Dark Flame]

One thing that I don't believe has been mentioned is that Tarkin was a known mass murderer. And Palpatine still allowed (or ordered?) him to command a weapon capable of destroying planets, and apparently without any serious oversight! That at least implies some sort of trust in Tarkin, I'm sure Palpatine would have at least acknowledged the possibility that Tarkin would be willing to blow up a planet.

[TC Pilot]

Because Tarkin is acting on his own, not sure how you can claim that with Vader there, that his evil act and his statment about the rule through fear of possible act of force that is stated right out was somehow not Imperial policy only by using the apologenic statment by a pr man you claim outranks Tarkin.

First off, Ars Dangor is Tarkin's superior. He is a member of the Emperor's Ruling Council, the de facto leaders of the Empire. He is the one who gave Tarkin his job, and suspended the Imperial Senate for the duration of the emergency.

Secondly, Tarkin is acting on his own. Would you like me to show you the radio drama quote where Vader's protest that the Emperor should be "consulted" was steamrolled again? The quote is incredibly well known and widely distributed in discussions like these. I'm surprised you're unaware of it. You'll need to explain an awful lot how the Emperor could have known what Tarkin was planning to obliterate Alderaan when his emissary outright states the Emperor should be notified.

[Noble Ire]

So acquaintance equals complicity? Tarkin is the Emperor's subordinate in an enormous hierarchical government in charge of the vast majority of the galaxy, not his friend.

Their demonstrated relationship with one another seems to indicate that they were on friendly terms. At the very least, Palpatine respected his judgement enough to have it effect galaxy-wide policy, despite the fact Tarkin was a known mass-murder.

And are you telling me every single Wookiee on the face of the planet was enslaved?

Entire cities were placed under martial law, and Imperial slavers had countless thousands of Wookiees, politicans, soldiers, and civilians alike shipped off-world for labor or sold to Transdoshans.

Excuse me? Was it not you that said because Palpatine was evil, "thus so were all his instruments of domination until his destruction and, to some extent, for decades after"? By your reasoning, Wookiees and Alderaanians were traitors because their leaders were. Apply your moral reasoning to everyone, not just selective "bad guys".

I never said that every Imperial was evil; you just assumed that because you seem to refuse to believe that enough of them were to make a difference (I even explictly stated that I thought there were good Imperials on the last page). My point was that Palpatine and some of his highest officials were evil, and thus, due to the nature of the Imperial government, the entire establishment was in varying degrees. Take the case of the Confederated States of America: no sane person would say that every Confederate was an evil person, most Separatist soldiers didn't even own slaves, after all, but the state upheld the institution of slavery, which was a vile and reprehensible practice. The CSA was evil, at least in that way, even if all of its people were not.

I made no such claim. You still have yet to prove the Emperor "filled the upper eschelons around him with zealots, ruthless, barely-contained despots, slavers, xenophobes, and psycopaths".

You implied that you didn't believe that a single ranking member of the Imperial hierarchy was "a bad person". My comments in this regard were addressing that viewpoint.

Why? Because you say so? My boss at my job hides things from his superiors all the time. Are you saying this could not possibly happen in a nearly infinitely larger scope of the Galactic Empire? You're talking like a minimalist here.

Even in a galaxy of quadrillions of sapients, one can't simply take entire star systems of billions of inhabitants and make them disappear without question. Are you honestly telling me that no one in the federal government would notice if the governor of Alaska blockaded Anchorage and enslaved its population?

So every Nazi is guilty of slaughtering ethnic minorities? The Hitlers, Himmlers, Heydrichs, SS-Gestapo were reprehensible for their actions, much like the COMPNOR and ISB political lackeys are often scumbags

See my point above. I never claimed that every Imperial was evil, just many of the ones that mattered.

And assumptions that he knows every minute detail of the goings on of an unfathomably large government means nothing. Do you want a debate, or do you want to throw uninformed opinions around? Proof might help to back up your claims.

In the novel Alliegance, Emperor Palpatine was involved enough in the administration of his Empire to take an active interest in the investigation of a sectorial governor who was suspected of having dealings with pirates. He is known to have personally discussed the exchange of Imperial border colonies and their populations for Ssi-Ruuk entechment technology. I never said that he has his fingers in every little goings-on, but he does have the capability and often enough the time to become involved in matters of state.

The Empire does not exist in a vacuum. Would you rather live in a safe, secure society full of prosperity and luxury or one full of corruption, constant brush-fire wars and infighting with an ineffectual government? Under the Empire, peoples lives improved, things got done. Why should anyone want to live in a state that, according to the Black Fleet Crisis, was designed so things wouldn't get done?

You have yet to demonstrate that there was a significant decline in quality of life on most of the populated worlds of the galactic interior from the Empire to the New Republic.

[Isolder74]

Because Tarkin is acting on his own, not sure how you can claim that with Vader there, that his evil act and his statment about the rule through fear of possible act of force that is stated right out was somehow not Imperial policy only by using the apologenic statment by a pr man you claim outranks Tarkin.

First off, Ars Dangor is Tarkin's superior. He is a member of the Emperor's Ruling Council, the de facto leaders of the Empire. He is the one who gave Tarkin his job, and suspended the Imperial Senate for the duration of the emergency.

Secondly, Tarkin is acting on his own. Would you like me to show you the radio drama quote where Vader's protest that the Emperor should be "consulted" was steamrolled again? The quote is incredibly well known and widely distributed in discussions like these. I'm surprised you're unaware of it. You'll need to explain an awful lot how the Emperor could have known what Tarkin was planning to obliterate Alderaan when his emissary outright states the Emperor should be notified.

The presence of Vader the Emperor's Emisary negates that claim and Tarkin wasn't acting totally without recourse. If he was acting on free reign then that status had to be santioned by Palps.

The man you mentioned was an administrator in charge of keeping the Emporer having a nice image. Does it surprise you he has a different take on the Rule by fear doctrine?

There are Multiple refences to the Tarkin Doctrine being the general rule in the Empire qand not just something Tarkin spoted for the fun of it.

Tarkin's acts were santioned by Palps or he would have been removed before the end of the film.

[Surlethe]

Yes, indeed. Except isn't Vader "on Tarkin's leash"?

And doesn't Tarkin have a foul stench that emanates throughout the entire battlestation?

The point is that Vader is under Tarkin's direct authority, not the other way around. If Vader is representing the Emperor, he does so in an advisorial capacity and nothing more.

Why?

Because the destruction of a world on a galactic scale does not have the same impact it would from our own perspective. When his conversation with his family was abruptly cut short by the planet's destruction, Tycho Celchu merely assumed with was a Holonet malfunction. The Empire would most likely assume the same thing, and even if ships were sent to investigate, by the time Alderaan's destruction and the Death Star's role in it would be confirmed, Tarkin would well be on his way to oblivion.

Why would the Emperor, who is attuned to the Force to a degree greater than Obi-Wan Kenobi, be unable to put 2 and 2 together and conclude that the Death Star had, indeed, destroyed Alderaan? You are further assuming that the Death Star remains incommunicado from the moment of Alderaan's destruction to its own fiery demise.

[TC Pilot]

At the very least, Palpatine respected his judgement enough to have it effect galaxy-wide policy, despite the fact Tarkin was a known mass-murder.

Or, HIM Emperor Palpatine simply agreed with Tarkin's assessment of the growing rebellion. Accepting the suggestion of a subordinate does not mean anything beyond that Palpatine listens to his minions.

Entire cities were placed under martial law, and Imperial slavers had countless thousands of Wookiees, politicans, soldiers, and civilians alike shipped off-world for labor or sold to Transdoshans.

And thousands of Wookiees and several cities actively attacked and resisted Imperial armed forces, as well as harboring the Jedi traitors. Please, read Dark Lord.

I never said that every Imperial was evil; you just assumed that because you seem to refuse to believe that enough of them were to make a difference (I even explictly stated that I thought there were good Imperials on the last page). My point was that Palpatine and some of his highest officials were evil, and thus, due to the nature of the Imperial government, the entire establishment was in varying degrees.

I know what you said and you still have yet to provide a shred of evidence to support it. Please do so.

Take the case of the Confederated States of America: no sane person would say that every Confederate was an evil person, most Separatist soldiers didn't even own slaves, after all, but the state upheld the institution of slavery, which was a vile and reprehensible practice. The CSA was evil, at least in that way, even if all of its people were not.

And the United States of America upheld the institution of slavery as well during the Civil War. Were both states evil? Can a nation be evil?

You implied that you didn't believe that a single ranking member of the Imperial hierarchy was "a bad person". My comments in this regard were addressing that viewpoint.

And you still have not provided anything to support your statements. Please do so.

Even in a galaxy of quadrillions of sapients, one can't simply take entire star systems of billions of inhabitants and make them disappear without question. Are you honestly telling me that no one in the federal government would notice if the governor of Alaska blockaded Anchorage and enslaved its population?

How could the federal government know? The governor of Alaska would be a part of that federal government (since Moffs are appointed by the Imperial State) and would have control of the military forces and communications.

I have already given you an example of the breaches of Imperial law by local Moffs being hidden, discovered, and corrected. And I have already given you two examples of Imperial citizens accepting vastly revised history (regarding the Force and the discovery of Mon Calamari). Broken record tactics are not viable methods of winning any debate.

See my point above. I never claimed that every Imperial was evil, just many of the ones that mattered.

So now when your argument is simply shown to be a double-standard, you deny you ever said it? Pray tell, what is this?

The Emperor was evil, and thus so were all his instruments of domination until his destruction and, to some extent, for decades after.

You claim the entire Imperial government is evil. Retract your statement or provide evidence.

In the novel Alliegance, Emperor Palpatine was involved enough in the administration of his Empire to take an active interest in the investigation of a sectorial governor who was suspected of having dealings with pirates.

And Mara Jade notes how abnormal it is for the Emperor to take such an interest. Further, the timeframe mentioned in the A New Hope novelization refers to prior to the Death Star's destruction and the suspension of the Senate.

Are you trying to suggest there are billions of Emperor's Hands roaming the galaxy making sure every Moff is not violating any laws?

You have yet to demonstrate that there was a significant decline in quality of life on most of the populated worlds of the galactic interior from the Empire to the New Republic.

Following the Imperial pullout after Endor and the NR takeover, the Mid-Rim and other worlds suffered a massive economic downturn. Basically, the withdrawal of even token Imperial government from those worlds meant a great loss in revenue for them because they weren't part of the interstellar system and had to fend for their own, due to the confederated nature of the New Republic and the ineffective bureacracy. (Recon and Report, SW: Adventure Journal 2, if my memory serves me correctly).

The presence of Vader the Emperor's Emisary negates that claim and Tarkin wasn't acting totally without recourse.

And Vader's words make it clear the Emperor was not informed of Tarkin's decision to destroy Alderaan. This point will not be repeated again, no matter how often you choose to ignore it.

If he was acting on free reign then that status had to be santioned by Palps.

How could Palpatine possibly have sanctioned an action he had no knowledge of?

The man you mentioned was an administrator in charge of keeping the Emporer having a nice image.

Once again, you are patently wrong. Though I doubt repeating myself a third time will make you listen, I will for the sake of those less dense than you. Ars Dangor, Ruling Councilman and member of Palpatine's Inner Circle, was not "in charge of keeping the Emporer [sic] having a nice image". Quite the contrary, he ran the Empire. He was one of the most powerful men in the galaxy, wielding vastly more power than any man could reasonably dream of possessing. He was not some public relations nobody you insist on claiming him to be. In fact, he, and not Palpatine, was the man who announced the Tarkin Doctrine as Imperial policy. His words on what the rule by fear is are supremely more important than Tarkin's.

There are Multiple refences to the Tarkin Doctrine being the general rule in the Empire qand not just something Tarkin spoted for the fun of it.

Indeed, and you will find they are spouted out by Rebels. Truely unbiased sources, no?

Tarkin's acts were santioned by Palps or he would have been removed before the end of the film.

Why? What possible justification can you provide that Tarkin must be removed instantaneously from office or else his actions must be legal?

The point is that Vader is under Tarkin's direct authority, not the other way around. If Vader is representing the Emperor, he does so in an advisorial capacity and nothing more.

Of course. The Death Star Technical Companion identifies Vader as an "Imperial emissary", ipso facto the Emperor's representative. He does not wield the Emperor's power in representing HIM.

Why would the Emperor, who is attuned to the Force to a degree greater than Obi-Wan Kenobi, be unable to put 2 and 2 together and conclude that the Death Star had, indeed, destroyed Alderaan? You are further assuming that the Death Star remains incommunicado from the moment of Alderaan's destruction to its own fiery demise.

And you are arbitrarily insisting that Tarkin must be removed from office instantaneously, or else his actions must have had the approval of the Emperor. Your argument is a false premise.

[Surlethe]

And you are arbitrarily insisting that Tarkin must be removed from office instantaneously, or else his actions must have had the approval of the Emperor. Your argument is a false premise.

Why is it false? By not removing Tarkin upon learning of Alderaan's destruction, the Emperor implicitly gives the Grand Moff his blessing as well as leaving himself the political wiggle-room of post-mortem disavowing. This validates Tarkin's claim that the destruction of the planet is within his authority.

[Isolder74]

Let me get this straight are you claiming that the Empire WASN'T EVIL?

Just remember unless Tarkin's actions are approved by Palps He is DEAD -> Ozzel

Vader objecting to the destruction of Alderaan implies that Tarkin had a mandate from the Emperor. He was in charge but Vader was there to Reign in Tarkin if he ever tried anything that the Emperor didn't approve of then Vader is there to kill him. So they didn't call him that does not change the fact that it was done and Tarkin remained afterward. Vader did not stop the attack. So was Vader in the wrong then?

I still do not see how the Tarkin Doctrine was not an implicit policy in the Empire. Don't you find it a slightly bit conveinent that the Senate was disbanded the moment the Death Star was ready for use? You don't find it just a little bit odd that Tarkin was not the only High rankiing Imperial that weas committing atrocities?

We've listed the evils that the Empire has inflicted on the outer rim. Just because those in the core are still able to sip their tea does not change the facts of the matter. It is quite clear from the films that the Empire was the terrorists as it was they that were explicitly targeting and killing civilians.

In Dark Forces we are told that after taking out the Rebel base Talay the Dark Troopers then Killed everyone in the nearby city. Sounds like Rule By Fear to me.

The Tarkin Doctrine was spelled out directly in the board room moments after the news of the Senate being gone left Tarkin's lips.

[Noble Ire]

Or, HIM Emperor Palpatine simply agreed with Tarkin's assessment of the growing rebellion. Accepting the suggestion of a subordinate does not mean anything beyond that Palpatine listens to his minions.

So, you are fully willing to disregard the fact that Palpatine knew and consulted with Tarkin for years before even the Clone Wars, had Ars Dangor give him the rank of Grand Moff (just as he personally had given him control of the Seswenna Sector decades prior), and allowed him to take an active role in the top-secret Death Star project from its conception? And even if none of that is sufficient to establish a close connection, the fact still remains that Palpatine gave control of the Death Star over to a known mass murderer. The Emperor was hardly incompetent, even if he was brazen; he would not have given Tarkin authority over the most powerful weapon in existence unless he approved or at least disregarded the Moff's tendencies.

And thousands of Wookiees and several cities actively attacked and resisted Imperial armed forces, as well as harboring the Jedi traitors. Please, read Dark Lord.

So defending one's homeworld from an evidently unprovoked invasion is a crime worthy of mass-enslavement now? And even if it was, the planet was occupied for decades after the activation of Order 66, as demonstrated by Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds; that is neither just nor tactically necessary.

I know what you said and you still have yet to provide a shred of evidence to support it. Please do so.

Palpatine single-handedly orchestrated a war that resulted in the deaths of trillions, undermined a duly-elected governmental body that had stood for twenty-five centuries (a vast majority of which, I must point out, was peaceful and prosperous), had virtually the entirety of the Jedi Order executed including children and non-combatants, used slave-labor to construct his private retreats (as seen on Byss in Evasive Action: Recruitment), and personally ordered the destruction of worlds like Camaas (Thrawn Duology) and Firrerr (Crystal Star) simply because they did not fit into his blatantly unlawful New Order. His chief advisors were self-admitted xenophobes, like Sate Pestage, and actively supported rampant anti-alien sentiment. He appointed or allowed the appointment of governors and Grand Admirals like Tarkin, the fanatical and mass-murdering Ishin-Il-Raz, and the genocidal xenophobe Danetta Pitta. Despite your proclamations that Palpatine had little to do with the ISB and COMPNOR, Crueya Vandron was one of Emperor Palpatine's close advisors (Imperial Sourcebook). None of this is evidence in your eyes?

And the United States of America upheld the institution of slavery as well during the Civil War. Were both states evil? Can a nation be evil?

If a nation actively supports and upholds policies that are counter to the basic rights of human kind (or, in the case of the Empire, sapient-kind), then yes, I believe it is evil. And I am fully aware of the policies of the United States during the Civil War, and I have never said that I approved of its oft-changing and contradictory policy on slavery. Both nations, perhaps even up to the end of the war and into Reconstruction, were evil in that regard, although I would say that the CSA was more reprehensible, both because it actively maintained the institution, rather than simply using it as a political tool, and because the United State's efforts eventually undid the injustice.

And you still have not provided anything to support your statements. Please do so.

I have named half a dozen extremely high-ranking Imperials whose actions could only be deemed to be reprehensible, and that's not even mentioning Lord Vader and the Emperor's Hands.

How could the federal government know? The governor of Alaska would be a part of that federal government (since Moffs are appointed by the Imperial State) and would have control of the military forces and communications.

But he wouldn't control those apparatuses in their entirety. Word would get out, most likely by civilian action, and would invariably find its way back to the capital. Unless said governor also controlled the full breath of the national intelligence services, their agents would pick up on the reports, investigate them, and report back to their masters, who would in turn be obligated to relay the information to Palpatine and his chief advisors. The only possible way that this would not occur is if a majority of the departmental and agency heads around Palpatine were blatantly treasonous, and you have to provided an ounce of evidence that would support that.

I have already given you an example of the breaches of Imperial law by local Moffs being hidden, discovered, and corrected. And I have already given you two examples of Imperial citizens accepting vastly revised history (regarding the Force and the discovery of Mon Calamari). Broken record tactics are not viable methods of winning any debate.

And I have given you two counter-examples (Mon Calamari and Kashyyyk) which you have not satisfactorily explained. I will not deny the almost-shocking malleability of Imperial public opinion, but such propagandizing would not and was not universal (as the very existence of the Rebellion demonstrates) and has nothing to do with Palpatine's knowledge of the situations.

So now when your argument is simply shown to be a double-standard, you deny you ever said it? Pray tell, what is this?

The Emperor was evil, and thus so were all his instruments of domination until his destruction and, to some extent, for decades after.

You claim the entire Imperial government is evil. Retract your statement or provide evidence.

I will admit, I exaggerated when I said that all of the Empire was evil (that much is obvious from my third post in this thread: "There were members of the Imperial military and regional governments who seemed to have decent, or at least reasonable goals and principles at heart, as is shown by the Pellaeon-era Imperial Remnant and the vast number of former Imperial administrators who assimilated fairly easily into the New Republic following the fall of Coruscant"). The passage you quote was in response to a statement you made of an equally doubtful nature:

Further, most of the... morally questionable officials of the Empire (if they existed at all) are generally part of the despicable lot of COMPNOR and ISB lackeys I mentioned as distinct from the Core World aristocracy.

And Mara Jade notes how abnormal it is for the Emperor to take such an interest.

It is made obvious time and time again in the book that Mara Jade is young and naive, and has absolutely no idea what the Galactic Empire actually stands for, or what her master's true motives are. She didn't even know at that point, IIRC, that he had any other Hands at all.

Further, the timeframe mentioned in the A New Hope novelization refers to prior to the Death Star's destruction and the suspension of the Senate.

What is this in reference to? Alliegence takes place after the Battle of Yavin.

Are you trying to suggest there are billions of Emperor's Hands roaming the galaxy making sure every Moff is not violating any laws?

I never implied that, and the implication that that's the only way Palpatine could have reliably known what was going on in his own Empire is quite ludicrous.

Following the Imperial pullout after Endor and the NR takeover, the Mid-Rim and other worlds suffered a massive economic downturn. Basically, the withdrawal of even token Imperial government from those worlds meant a great loss in revenue for them because they weren't part of the interstellar system and had to fend for their own, due to the confederated nature of the New Republic and the ineffective bureacracy. (Recon and Report, SW: Adventure Journal 2, if my memory serves me correctly).

I fail to see how an economic downturn would inevitably lead to the wide-spread chaos of which you have spoken. It is hardly a desirable outcome, but if the situation was truly so bad, why did so many worlds ally themselves with the New Republic instead of forming their own alliances, or remaining with the remnants of the Empire? It is true that the NR did attempt to keep systems from withdrawing on several occasions, but I can recall no mention of the Republic actually forcing planets to join. IIRC, dozens of relatively important worlds were eager to join the NR after the Thrawn campaigns.

[TC Pilot]

Why is it false? By not removing Tarkin upon learning of Alderaan's destruction, the Emperor implicitly gives the Grand Moff his blessing as well as leaving himself the political wiggle-room of post-mortem disavowing. This validates Tarkin's claim that the destruction of the planet is within his authority.

You are operating under the assumptions (unproven assumptions, mind you) that the Emperor discovered Alderaan's destruction prior to Tarkin's death and that he must act upon such knowledge immediately or else he gives his approval. Admiral Harkov, for example, was known to be breaching the law and even committing treason by selling off Imperial military equipment, but the Empire did not act against him immediately because he was a capable officer. That does not mean the Emperor condoned treason.

Just remember unless Tarkin's actions are approved by Palps He is DEAD -> Ozzel

Those are completely different scenarios. Vader did not have the power to act against Tarkin in ANH, but as Supreme Commander of all Imperial forces, he did have the authority to dispose of the incompetent Ozzel. Vigilantism is not something Vader is known for.

Vader objecting to the destruction of Alderaan implies that Tarkin had a mandate from the Emperor.

He was in charge but Vader was there to Reign in Tarkin if he ever tried anything that the Emperor didn't approve of then Vader is there to kill him.

Vader was there as both representative of the Emperor and to make sure Tarkin did not attempt to overthrow Palpatine as he was considering doing.

So they didn't call him that does not change the fact that it was done and Tarkin remained afterward. Vader did not stop the attack. So was Vader in the wrong then?

Vader did not have the authority to stop the attack. He may be at fault for not immediately contacting the Emperor, but that is not the issue here.

I still do not see how the Tarkin Doctrine was not an implicit policy in the Empire. Don't you find it a slightly bit conveinent that the Senate was disbanded the moment the Death Star was ready for use?

The Senate was not disbanded. It was suspended for the duration of the present emergency, and rightfully so. Further, the Death Star was not operational when news of the Senate's suspension had arrived.

You don't find it just a little bit odd that Tarkin was not the only High rankiing Imperial that weas committing atrocities?

These matters have already been discussed. I suggest you read this thread before simply repeating the same tired old argument.

We've listed the evils that the Empire has inflicted on the outer rim. Just because those in the core are still able to sip their tea does not change the facts of the matter. It is quite clear from the films that the Empire was the terrorists as it was they that were explicitly targeting and killing civilians.

The Empire cannot possibly be a terrorist group as it is the legitimate government and legal authority in the galaxy. Several rogue Imperial officials may have committed terrorism (by its very definition unlawful), but this is still entirely within my argument.

In Dark Forces we are told that after taking out the Rebel base Talay the Dark Troopers then Killed everyone in the nearby city. Sounds like Rule By Fear to me.

Dark Forces does not say the Dark Troopers killed every civilian, they were collateral damage. Perhaps next time, the Rebels should not use civilians as a shield.

The Tarkin Doctrine was spelled out directly in the board room moments after the news of the Senate being gone left Tarkin's lips.

Repeating the exact same argument still? Ad nauseam still not further your argument.

So, you are fully willing to disregard the fact that Palpatine knew and consulted with Tarkin for years before even the Clone Wars, had Ars Dangor give him the rank of Grand Moff (just as he personally had given him control of the Seswenna Sector decades prior), and allowed him to take an active role in the top-secret Death Star project from its conception?

I do not disregard those facts, but they are irrelevant.

So defending one's homeworld from an evidently unprovoked invasion is a crime worthy of mass-enslavement now?

The Wookiees harbored Jedi fugitives and killed Imperial soldiers. They were hardly innocent.

Palpatine single-handedly orchestrated a war that resulted in the deaths of trillions, undermined a duly-elected governmental body that had stood for twenty-five centuries (a vast majority of which, I must point out, was peaceful and prosperous), had virtually the entirety of the Jedi Order executed including children and non-combatants, used slave-labor to construct his private retreats (as seen on Byss in Evasive Action: Recruitment), and personally ordered the destruction of worlds like Camaas (Thrawn Duology) and Firrerr (Crystal Star) simply because they did not fit into his blatantly unlawful New Order.

Point of note: the New Order was not unlawful. I do not know how you could consider it illegal considering it was ratified by the Galactic Senate. Keep in mind as well that the Emperor's imperium immunizes him from any crimes committed past, present, or future.

Much of what you insist is evil about the Empire was already common practice in the Old Republic. Do you admit the Old Republic is evil as well?

If a nation actively supports and upholds policies that are counter to the basic rights of human kind (or, in the case of the Empire, sapient-kind), then yes, I believe it is evil.

You must accept that the Empire, or any Star Wars government, cannot be expected to share your own fundamental belief in the basic or natural rights of sentients with any reasonable degree of validity. You are demanding the Star Wars galaxy meet artificial Terran standards that do not hold up under empirical scrutiny. As hard as it may be to believe, Locke and Hobbes might not be the generally accepted political philosophers of the galaxy far, far away.

But he wouldn't control those apparatuses in their entirety.

Moffs do. Tarkin certinly would in Oversector Outer.

And I have given you two counter-examples (Mon Calamari and Kashyyyk) which you have not satisfactorily explained.

Because you refuse to admit it, having decided Mon Calamari and Kasshyyk must be exceptional to the rule because of their prominence, even though that prominence means nothing and has been demonstrated so.

but such propagandizing would not and was not universal (as the very existence of the Rebellion demonstrates)

Did you know that up until her interrogation onboard the Death Star, Princess Leia of Alderaan did not believe the rumors and hearsay that such interrogation droids actually existed?

It is made obvious time and time again in the book that Mara Jade is young and naive, and has absolutely no idea what the Galactic Empire actually stands for, or what her master's true motives are.

One would do well to remember the example of General Deerian, who, upon learning of his innocence from Mara Jade, the Emperor spared?

In fact, the arrest of Moff Glovstoak for his illegal actions again show that Impreial officials are held accountable for their actions, should they be discovered.

I fail to see how an economic downturn would inevitably lead to the wide-spread chaos of which you have spoken.

I never spoke of chaos, I spoke of quality of life.

is hardly a desirable outcome, but if the situation was truly so bad, why did so many worlds ally themselves with the New Republic instead of forming their own alliances, or remaining with the remnants of the Empire?

Out of neccesity. The New Republic looked to be on the ascendant and the Empire was imploding from the leadership vacuum and the internal disorder Palpatine and his agents caused.

[Isolder74]

I see you can't speak english

Tarkin says that the Emperor has DISOLVED the counsil perminently I want to to eplain how you can say that he didn't end the unit after hearing that.

AND WHILE NOT OPERATIONAL THE DEATH STAR WAS COMPLETE!

Put up or shut up.


Palps was not the old senile out of touch man you protray him to be.

[Havok]

I see you can't speak english

Tarkin says that the Emperor has DISOLVED the counsil perminently I want to to eplain how you can say that he didn't end the unit after hearing that.

AND WHILE NOT OPERATIONAL THE DEATH STAR WAS COMPLETE!

Put up or shut up.


Palps was not the old senile out of touch man you protray him to be.

I think that he is thinking of the public declaration from Palpatine saying that the Senate is temporarily disbanded during the crisis of the galactic civil war as opposed to the truth which is what Tarkin says in ANH.

[Isolder74]

I see you can't speak english

Tarkin says that the Emperor has DISOLVED the counsil perminently I want to to eplain how you can say that he didn't end the unit after hearing that.

AND WHILE NOT OPERATIONAL THE DEATH STAR WAS COMPLETE!

Put up or shut up.


Palps was not the old senile out of touch man you protray him to be.

I think that he is thinking of the public declaration from Palpatine saying that the Senate is temporarily disbanded during the crisis of the galactic civil war as opposed to the truth which is what Tarkin says in ANH.

SO the moron is perpetuating a lie that's rich

[Havok]

Yes, very. I wanted to call him on it, but I can only type quick messages as I am at work

[Isolder74]

yep which means that its highly lik,ely that the pestage quote he uses over and over again is in the same category. Its the 'official' version of things when reporters ask but what Tarkin says in a closed conference room is the actual truth.

[TC Pilot]

Tarkin says that the Emperor has DISOLVED the counsil perminently I want to to eplain how you can say that he didn't end the unit after hearing that.

Senatorial representation has not been formally abolished, you must understand. It has merely been superseded "for the duration of the emergency." If that duration remains a permanent fixture, so be it. You, the Emperor's regional governors, will now have direct control and a free hand in administering your territories.

Tarkin actually quotes Dangor on this matter in the novelization. Do keep in mind this is actually the private announcement, rater than the public one.

AND WHILE NOT OPERATIONAL THE DEATH STAR WAS COMPLETE!

That it was complete is irrelevant if it is non-functional.

Put up or shut up.

Are you just spouting random demands to supplement your complete inability to formulate a response? Either way, your frustrating obtuseness is now becoming humorous. I appreciate that.

Palps was not the old senile out of touch man you protray him to be.

Firstly, I never said the Emperor was senile. Secondly, I have given you the source that claims he was a recluse, whereas you have provided nothing to contradict that claim beside your rather unimpressive opinion on the matter.

I also find it hilarious you insist I am repeatedly quoting Grand Vizier Sate Pestage, regardless of the fact I have yet to mention him once.

But these are merely details to my main argument which has yet to be disproven or contradicted.