Are "The Clone Wars" and "The Force Unleashed" Canon?

[Connor MacLeod]

Logistics. The Clone Army had its own transports and supply lines in place more than likely. That's big Advantage #1. #2 is that the Republic is huge, and it has a big population. But that population is spread out across numerous (different) alien species. Coordinating and supplying such a force would be a logistical nightmare. Clones are all human stock, which simplifies matter greatly.

The various alien species of the Republic are largely going to be more useful as a defensive military forces, whilst the clones act to support specific planets under invasion, and to generally act as the mobile, offensive arm of the Republic. It doesn't need to be huge to do that, and odds are both sides had a far smaller transport/logitical fleet for moving around or transporting troops. Hell, the Separatists may have had quintillions of droids, but they only had the logistical ability to transport/support a fraction of that (a mere "millions" of starships).

[ronindave]

The Republic is a huge government composed of numerous planets. Surely an armed force could be called up if the Republic was in danger - like maybe all those wookies we saw in Episode III?

Those Wookiees were an unorganized militia who had no mechanized support or organic fire support of any type, the heaviest vehicles they had were speedboats and the equivalent of a civilian utility helicopter with a gun strapped on. It would take months to organize, supply, and train the average planetary militia up into part of a Galactic military.

Nevertheless it shows that within the Republic there are military forces. I for one can't believe there wasn't an army of the Republic to begin with or that individual planets did not have a defense force.

or here's a thought - make war droids of your own! Most of them were those wimpy robots anyway. A couple hundred R2 units with big fans could knock them all down.

GTFO. That's ridiculous.

Lighten up! It was a joke but much truth is spoken in jest. Many of those battle droids were those wimpy robots from Phantom Menace whom some of them were destroyed by being simply Force Pushed

4) they were cloned on the orders of the Council but the Council never made such an order - that should have been a big tip off.

That only tells us someone wanted a Clone army, not who and we need that Army now.

Yeah, well that's a pretty big question - who wanted a Clone Army and when you factor in the template for the clones is working for the Separatists and you don't know who ordered the clones you'd have to be a moron not to suspect something. Also the clones were ordered in the name of the Jedi Council which they never did. Somebody lied or is lying right at that moment. Even without knowing Palpatine's super-secret plan, suspecting it to be a Separatist trap would be reasonable. And no assurance of a group of people you never heard of before and whose planet was erased from the records should make you feel secure.

You don't have to as wise as Yoda to figure something is seriously wrong here or be an Ackbar to know "It's a trap!" And as it turns out - yep surprise! surprise! the clones turn out to be evil! Who'd a-thunk it!

Except they weren't evil. They're subliminally programmed.

Uh, dude you're talking about the future stormtroopers of the original trilogy. You know the guys who killed Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen and a bunch of Jawas. Were they subliminally programmed to slaughter them too? The stormtroopers were the jack-booted thugs of the OT - they were bad guys. I saw nothing in the film to indicate subliminal programming only an order they were expecting to carry out some day which they did.

Come to think of it, Palpatine could have done Order 66 right there on Genosis and wiped out all the Jedi and blamed it on the Separatists and no one would have been the wiser!

Good job. He doesn't get his emergency powers, just the normal Chancellor powers and the Jedi who aren't on Geonosis find out about the plan long before Palpatine has had time to get agents right behind each and every one of their backs.

What about emergency powers? Did he need the Jedi for that? No, he just needed a dimwitted Gungan. The only obstacle to absolute power were the Jedi and with the majority of Jedi wiped out on the Geonosis the rest would have been easy to bring in line or hunted down as was mentioned in ANH. He could have even said that the Jedi were plotting with the separtists. It would have been just as believable or perhaps more so than his story in ROTS when there was even less reason to suspect the Jedi - the guardians of peace for a 1000 generations - would suddenly try to sieze power after the war.

He could have wiped out the Jedi on Geonosis then used the combined menace of the clones and droids as an excuse to draft half the galaxy into military service while turning the people against the Jedi. Then you'd have a militarized society that is loyal to the man responsible for "saving" them from the Separatist threat and who would hold in disdain anyone disloyal to such a man and the Empire calling them "Rebel scum!"

[The Romulan Republic]

Most of the Jedi weren't on Geonosis. The EU puts the number of Jedi at about 10,000 at least, as I recall. Windu had what, 200?

Its obvious that the Jedi I brought were those who could be gathered on short notice, not most of the Order's man power.

[Connor MacLeod]

Nevertheless it shows that within the Republic there are military forces. I for one can't believe there wasn't an army of the Republic to begin with or that individual planets did not have a defense force.

As difficult to believe as it is, they seemingly didn't need a standing, government-sponsored army. They seemed to have very limited military forces (some small naval assets, like the Judicials and other forces for antipiracy and peacekeeping work, and some special ops forces like we see in rogue Planet) but they had no official soldiers or battleships or anything like that. Given that prior to the clone wars hyperdrive equipped warships were supposed to be very short ranged which would limit the scope and potential damage of conflicts. The Trade Federation and other Separatists were supposed to be breaking the rules in that regard, remember.

It would take money (taxes) to raise and maintain substnatial military forces like they did in the Clone Wars, which means that tehre would be less taxes/money/etc to spend elsewhere (like corruption and bribery). Whilst small scale conflicts would actually benefit some industries (like KDY and various other military suppliers, mercenary groups, etc.) An intergalactic war would be too disruptive, even on a limited scale like the Clone Wars was.

Yeah, well that's a pretty big question - who wanted a Clone Army and when you factor in the template for the clones is working for the Separatists and you don't know who ordered the clones you'd have to be a moron not to suspect something. Also the clones were ordered in the name of the Jedi Council which they never did. Somebody lied or is lying right at that moment. Even without knowing Palpatine's super-secret plan, suspecting it to be a Separatist trap would be reasonable. And no assurance of a group of people you never heard of before and whose planet was erased from the records should make you feel secure.

So? They're at a crucial juncture in matters with the possible security (and unity) of the Republic teetering in the balance. They don't have military forces available within the Republic, they never have had need before. Even if they suspect or know it was a trap, there was no other option available. 10,000 Jedi would not be able to stop 1 million battle droids, much less stop an entire war. They needed an actual army, one was available, and they had to use it, regardless of the consequences. It wouldn't surprise me if Palpatine expected them to be suspicious.

Uh, dude you're talking about the future stormtroopers of the original trilogy. You know the guys who killed Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen and a bunch of Jawas. Were they subliminally programmed to slaughter them too? The stormtroopers were the jack-booted thugs of the OT - they were bad guys. I saw nothing in the film to indicate subliminal programming only an order they were expecting to carry out some day which they did.

And? There's more than two decades between The Clone Wars and the latter movies. Lots of time for the storm trooper genetic lines to diversify (which we know it did in the EU, but we can see hints of in the OT even) - nevermind the actual recruiting angle. There's no reason to suspect the Clonetroopers of the prequels were the same as the ST of the OT, aside from the obvious out of universe "deliberate foreshadowing" they were meant to be.

What about emergency powers? Did he need the Jedi for that? No, he just needed a dimwitted Gungan. The only obstacle to absolute power were the Jedi and with the majority of Jedi wiped out on the Geonosis the rest would have been easy to bring in line or hunted down as was mentioned in ANH. He could have even said that the Jedi were plotting with the separtists. It would have been just as believable or perhaps more so than his story in ROTS when there was even less reason to suspect the Jedi - the guardians of peace for a 1000 generations - would suddenly try to sieze power after the war.

He could have wiped out the Jedi on Geonosis then used the combined menace of the clones and droids as an excuse to draft half the galaxy into military service while turning the people against the Jedi. Then you'd have a militarized society that is loyal to the man responsible for "saving" them from the Separatist threat and who would hold in disdain anyone disloyal to such a man and the Empire calling them "Rebel scum!"

And you think that eveyone is just going to bow down and happily sign up for a draft when they are a product of centuries of NOT having to fight? You think people and corporations and etc are all just going to happiyl fork over money and other resources (which will enforce some strict changes of lifestyle if you intend to conscript a significant chunk of the galaxy) just to fuel this hypothetical militarization? You think the bureacracy, corruption, and inertia that Palpatine relied on in his ascendency to power suddenly disappears and Palpy can do whatever he wants? Despite the fact that he needed the Death STar to do that and had to play slow political games for nigh on two decades to reach his desired goals?

I find all of that far more unlikely. Palpy had alot of influence, power, and was a master of politics and intrigue, but he wasn't a fucking god and he didn't have galactic mind control powers. He still had limits, he still had opposition and obstacles to his goals, which was pretty much why he had to create himself his own WMD. Hell even the "emergency powers" were just a step in the larger plan - him taking that power was only justified by the existence of an external threat, and he had to continue to find or manufacture such threats just to perpetuate them, but even he could not do that forever.

I also don't see how your "plan" for the Jedi is any better at wiping them out as a significant threat than what Palpatine did. It would be very difficult to wipe out a huge chunk of the order given that it was, more or less, dispersed throughout the galaxy for the most part. I question whether he could count on any matter being big enough to warrant assembling all 10,000 Jedi in one place, or even engineer such a thing. As TRR noted, they only dispatched 200 to Geonosis, and they actually thought that might be enough to end matters (which just goes to show why they aren't warriors...)

[ronindave]

Nevertheless it shows that within the Republic there are military forces. I for one can't believe there wasn't an army of the Republic to begin with or that individual planets did not have a defense force.

As difficult to believe as it is, they seemingly didn't need a standing, government-sponsored army. They seemed to have very limited military forces (some small naval assets, like the Judicials and other forces for antipiracy and peacekeeping work, and some special ops forces like we see in rogue Planet) but they had no official soldiers or battleships or anything like that. Given that prior to the clone wars hyperdrive equipped warships were supposed to be very short ranged which would limit the scope and potential damage of conflicts. The Trade Federation and other Separatists were supposed to be breaking the rules in that regard, remember.

It would take money (taxes) to raise and maintain substnatial military forces like they did in the Clone Wars, which means that tehre would be less taxes/money/etc to spend elsewhere (like corruption and bribery). Whilst small scale conflicts would actually benefit some industries (like KDY and various other military suppliers, mercenary groups, etc.) An intergalactic war would be too disruptive, even on a limited scale like the Clone Wars was.

We're talking about fiction here particularly Star Wars fiction not Star Trek and while you can debate certain inconsistencies in the plot you are going waaaaay overboard applying reality to a non-reality. This is about story-telling. When characters do something that is obviously stupid within the confines of a story you can (and should) call them out on it - such as accepting these highly dubious clones who (surprise! surprise!) turn on the Jedi. But all this stuff about taxes and maintaining standing armies sounds silly especially when looking at the OT. In the OT, the Empire had 2 Death Stars built, countless Tie fighters, a large number of Star Destroyers, one Super Star Destroyers, AT Walkers, and a huge army. I don't think they worried about their military budget nor did the audience.

I just think the story in AOTC thru to ROTS in regards to the Clone Army was weak as was the Jedi's decision to accept these clones on face value from these cloners they had never met. I had always assumed the clones in the "Clone Wars" were either rebellious clones or were fighting on a non-Republic side hence the name "The Clone Wars." The Jedi accepted the clones because the script needed them to do so in order to start the CLone Wars and later so that the Jedi could easily be removed.

Even if they suspect or know it was a trap, there was no other option available. 10,000 Jedi would not be able to stop 1 million battle droids, much less stop an entire war. They needed an actual army, one was available, and they had to use it, regardless of the consequences.

If those 10,000 Jedi were even half as strong as Mace Windu they wouldn't need a Clone Army. Dude wiped out half an army by himself here

It wouldn't surprise me if Palpatine expected them to be suspicious.

Except they weren't really. Despite all the evidence that something was very wrong with these clones, Yoda springs the lot of them into action rather than just getting a smaller force to free the Jedi on Geonosis.

Uh, dude you're talking about the future stormtroopers of the original trilogy. You know the guys who killed Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen and a bunch of Jawas. Were they subliminally programmed to slaughter them too? The stormtroopers were the jack-booted thugs of the OT - they were bad guys. I saw nothing in the film to indicate subliminal programming only an order they were expecting to carry out some day which they did.

And? There's more than two decades between The Clone Wars and the latter movies. Lots of time for the storm trooper genetic lines to diversify (which we know it did in the EU, but we can see hints of in the OT even) - nevermind the actual recruiting angle. There's no reason to suspect the Clonetroopers of the prequels were the same as the ST of the OT, aside from the obvious out of universe "deliberate foreshadowing" they were meant to be.

So the clones weren't meant to be bad guys in ROTS? There was nothing in the film to suggest that they hadn't been prepared for Order 66 from Day 1. Are we suppose to feel bad for these guys as they gunned down the Jedi without pause or remorse? They're either evil or they're little more than fleshy droids following out their programming in either case why should I care about them?

And you think that eveyone is just going to bow down and happily sign up for a draft when they are a product of centuries of NOT having to fight? You think people and corporations and etc are all just going to happiyl fork over money and other resources (which will enforce some strict changes of lifestyle if you intend to conscript a significant chunk of the galaxy) just to fuel this hypothetical militarization?

Yes, I do. Situation - you have a massive army of droids and clones poised to attack the Republic. You don't think people would want to defend themselves? The Rebels raised their own army from the people willing to fight the oppression of the Empire. I think in a situation like this the Republic would glady volunteer to fight the Separtist threat thus creating a loyal force that we later see in the OT - you know all those non-clone officers and any Imperial with a face. Anyway, look what happened in America in 1941 and 2001. Massive numbers of people volunteered. You're telling me the Republic would just say "We aren't going to fight to save ourselves!"????

I also don't see how your "plan" for the Jedi is any better at wiping them out as a significant threat than what Palpatine did. It would be very difficult to wipe out a huge chunk of the order given that it was, more or less, dispersed throughout the galaxy for the most part. I question whether he could count on any matter being big enough to warrant assembling all 10,000 Jedi in one place, or even engineer such a thing. As TRR noted, they only dispatched 200 to Geonosis, and they actually thought that might be enough to end matters (which just goes to show why they aren't warriors...)

The bulk of the Jedi leadership - yoda, Mace Windu, and Obiwan were on Geonosis. When you take out the leadership of an organization it makes the rest somewhat easier to manage especially when they are spread out. Palpatine could have sprung Order 66 killing the Jedi on Geonosis then claim the Jedi were in cahoots with the Separtists and declare the remaining Jedi traitors. Since he controlled the Separtists anyway he could have got them to back up the story so even if some survived the Geonosis massacre very few people would believe them. He could have made sure Anakin survived and fed him some cock-n-bull story then sent him off on the Dark Side path to hunt down the remaining Jedi.

The thing is whether he sprung Order 66 then or at the end of ROTS it really doesn't matter. The story structure is just that weak. Palpatine doesn't so much as seems to be engineering his rise to absolute power so much as he is trying to make sure everything is set up for the OT.

I have never liked the whole Clone Wars story line as has been presented in the Prequels which is why I don't accept them as canon to the OT. There is just too much inconsistencies even from what little we learned in the OT. For one thing - the plural. It was only one war but in OT it sounded like there was a series of wars with intermediate peace between them. For example the Punic Wars refers to the 3 separate wars between Rome and Carthage.

Then of course there is the name of the war and the name of the second film. The Punic Wars - punic referred to Carthage thus the Romans called those wars the Punic Wars. The French and Indian Wars was named by the American colonists because they were fighting the French and their Indian allies. The name of the 2nd film is The Attack of the Clones. Most if not all "Attack of..." movies usually refer to the monsters/aliens/bad guys. Had the clones attacked the jedi in AOTC it would have made sense or if the clones were against the Republic. As it was despite the movie being called Attack of the Clones, the clones only show up and attack in the last 10 minutes of the film.

Palpatine has far too much influence in the Clone War(s). He's controlling the Separtists, he's manipulating the Senate, and he controls the clones. He even dupes the Jedi into accepting the clones he ordered 10 years earlier which later turn on the Jedi. The war is one big farce which renders the actions of either side moot and therefore uninteresting for (most of) the audience because nothing either side does matters. The Separtists will never win the war at anytime because Palpatine doesn't want them to or need them to. The Republic will only win the war when Palpatine lets them and on his own terms - the destruction of the Jedi. It's a pointless war so why bother making a TV series about a war that ultimately doesn't matter? With the OT you had an honest-to-gosh war with consequences with people struggling against a real foe. the kind of stuff good stories are made of.

[Connor MacLeod]

We're talking about fiction here particularly Star Wars fiction not Star Trek and while you can debate certain inconsistencies in the plot you are going waaaaay overboard applying reality to a non-reality. This is about story-telling. When characters do something that is obviously stupid within the confines of a story you can (and should) call them out on it - such as accepting these highly dubious clones who (surprise! surprise!) turn on the Jedi. But all this stuff about taxes and maintaining standing armies sounds silly especially when looking at the OT. In the OT, the Empire had 2 Death Stars built, countless Tie fighters, a large number of Star Destroyers, one Super Star Destroyers, AT Walkers, and a huge army. I don't think they worried about their military budget nor did the audience.

I just think the story in AOTC thru to ROTS in regards to the Clone Army was weak as was the Jedi's decision to accept these clones on face value from these cloners they had never met. I had always assumed the clones in the "Clone Wars" were either rebellious clones or were fighting on a non-Republic side hence the name "The Clone Wars." The Jedi accepted the clones because the script needed them to do so in order to start the CLone Wars and later so that the Jedi could easily be removed.

I like how one minute you're talking in-universe, yet when your little theory falls flat you backpedal to the "ITS JUST MAKE BELIEVE YOU'RE TAKING THIS TOO SERIOUSLY" argument. Don't really care about consistency much, do you?

If those 10,000 Jedi were even half as strong as Mace Windu they wouldn't need a Clone Army. Dude wiped out half an army by himself here

And why should we take Mace Windu as a benchmark for Jedi as opposed to, for example, the council member who got gunned down by Jango Fett? It's well established in Star Wars that Jedi capabilities are highly highly variable, and there is no correlation between rank/authority and physical power in the Force. Some like Windu and Yoda are quite powerful, others are skilled in other ways. There are Jedi diplomats, healers, etc.

Oh and the micro series is "proof" of standard Jedi capabilities? Next you'll tell me Samurai Jack is really an exapmleo of what real life samurai can do.

Except they weren't really. Despite all the evidence that something was very wrong with these clones, Yoda springs the lot of them into action rather than just getting a smaller force to free the Jedi on Geonosis.

Who cares? My speculation about Palpatine counting on it is irrelevant to the larger issue. Why you decided to fixate on this as "important" is beyond me. Then again you can't keep your own position constant, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

So the clones weren't meant to be bad guys in ROTS? There was nothing in the film to suggest that they hadn't been prepared for Order 66 from Day 1. Are we suppose to feel bad for these guys as they gunned down the Jedi without pause or remorse? They're either evil or they're little more than fleshy droids following out their programming in either case why should I care about them?

Actually, no, I didn't find the Clonetroopers to be bad guys. I found them to be tragic figures. They're slaves bred to fight and die for a Republic they probably will never, ever, have a say in. The worst part of it is they have only got the barest glimmering of the fact they are slaves- they're happy doing what they do. Indeed, this tends to make them rather tragic figures, and moreso when they execute Order 66. We're shown quite a bit in ROTS (and in the EU) that many of the Jedi like and trust and get along with their Clones, but duty is so ingrained into them that they will kill even their Jedi commanders if they are told to. THere's no malice in it, no anger, no hatred, nothing we would qualify as "evil" in Star Wars, yet they do it anyhow. They, like everyone else in the Prequels, ends up being tools in Palpatine's grand ambition.

That the Storm troopers decades later may be "evil" has no bearing on that. Timess and circumstances change, even if you refuse to acknowledge that.

Yes, I do. Situation - you have a massive army of droids and clones poised to attack the Republic. You don't think people would want to defend themselves? The Rebels raised their own army from the people willing to fight the oppression of the Empire. I think in a situation like this the Republic would glady volunteer to fight the Separtist threat thus creating a loyal force that we later see in the OT - you know all those non-clone officers and any Imperial with a face. Anyway, look what happened in America in 1941 and 2001. Massive numbers of people volunteered. You're telling me the Republic would just say "We aren't going to fight to save ourselves!"????

And what proof allows you to justify that sort of optimistic thinking, exactly? The Old Republic as we have seen it in the prequels (nevermind the EU) is both massively corrupt, stagnant, and highly inefficient.

And America is not a good analogy for the Pre-Clone Wars REpublic as far as the military goes, givne the US itself has something of culture of warrior-worship and a massive (if corrupt) military-industrial complex. The Republic, by contrast, is quite "de-militarized", so much so that we start the second movie out with there being a huge argument OVER the creation of a standing military. In short, I suspect you gave this precisely the same amount of thought you gave the rest of your little theory (none at all.)

The bulk of the Jedi leadership - yoda, Mace Windu, and Obiwan were on Geonosis. When you take out the leadership of an organization it makes the rest somewhat easier to manage especially when they are spread out. Palpatine could have sprung Order 66 killing the Jedi on Geonosis then claim the Jedi were in cahoots with the Separtists and declare the remaining Jedi traitors. Since he controlled the Separtists anyway he could have got them to back up the story so even if some survived the Geonosis massacre very few people would believe them. He could have made sure Anakin survived and fed him some cock-n-bull story then sent him off on the Dark Side path to hunt down the remaining Jedi.

The thing is whether he sprung Order 66 then or at the end of ROTS it really doesn't matter. The story structure is just that weak. Palpatine doesn't so much as seems to be engineering his rise to absolute power so much as he is trying to make sure everything is set up for the OT.

I have never liked the whole Clone Wars story line as has been presented in the Prequels which is why I don't accept them as canon to the OT. There is just too much inconsistencies even from what little we learned in the OT. For one thing - the plural. It was only one war but in OT it sounded like there was a series of wars with intermediate peace between them. For example the Punic Wars refers to the 3 separate wars between Rome and Carthage.

Then of course there is the name of the war and the name of the second film. The Punic Wars - punic referred to Carthage thus the Romans called those wars the Punic Wars. The French and Indian Wars was named by the American colonists because they were fighting the French and their Indian allies. The name of the 2nd film is The Attack of the Clones. Most if not all "Attack of..." movies usually refer to the monsters/aliens/bad guys. Had the clones attacked the jedi in AOTC it would have made sense or if the clones were against the Republic. As it was despite the movie being called Attack of the Clones, the clones only show up and attack in the last 10 minutes of the film.

Palpatine has far too much influence in the Clone War(s). He's controlling the Separtists, he's manipulating the Senate, and he controls the clones. He even dupes the Jedi into accepting the clones he ordered 10 years earlier which later turn on the Jedi. The war is one big farce which renders the actions of either side moot and therefore uninteresting for (most of) the audience because nothing either side does matters. The Separtists will never win the war at anytime because Palpatine doesn't want them to or need them to. The Republic will only win the war when Palpatine lets them and on his own terms - the destruction of the Jedi. It's a pointless war so why bother making a TV series about a war that ultimately doesn't matter? With the OT you had an honest-to-gosh war with consequences with people struggling against a real foe. the kind of stuff good stories are made of.

Let's see. Your argument seems to boil down to largely 1.) idle speculation and 2.) inability to stay consistently in or out of universe, rather jumping back and forth between the two when it suits you. I take it you remember what fucking forum you are on, and specifically the rules pertaining to this forum? Consistency is a big one. So unless you decide how you are going to argue this, don't bother to fucking reply.

[ronindave]

I like how one minute you're talking in-universe, yet when your little theory falls flat you backpedal to the "ITS JUST MAKE BELIEVE YOU'RE TAKING THIS TOO SERIOUSLY" argument. Don't really care about consistency much, do you?

Chill on the nerd rage a bit. why don't you? What I said was prefectly consistent. At the very bottom line this is all about storytelling. Star Wars is not Star Trek and never the twain shall (or should) meet. Technical problems in Star Wars are less about the science and more about presenting an obstacle for the character to overcome. Going on about the logistics of raising an army in the Star Wars universe given what was established in the original movies with their grandiose armadas, Death Stars, Star Destroyers, I don't think fiscal budgets played much into it.

It's hard to believe that in-universe they couldn't raise a force to combat the Separtists. The clones were created under too suspicious of circumstances even without the knowledge the audience has. If the clone template is found working for your enemy and the clones were said to have been ordered by the Jedi Council which they didn't, it spells a trap. The Jedi's motivation for accepting these clones and not suspecting them is a weakness of the script IMHO.

If those 10,000 Jedi were even half as strong as Mace Windu they wouldn't need a Clone Army. Dude wiped out half an army by himself here

And why should we take Mace Windu as a benchmark for Jedi as opposed to, for example, the council member who got gunned down by Jango Fett? It's well established in Star Wars that Jedi capabilities are highly highly variable, and there is no correlation between rank/authority and physical power in the Force. Some like Windu and Yoda are quite powerful, others are skilled in other ways. There are Jedi diplomats, healers, etc.

Oh and the micro series is "proof" of standard Jedi capabilities? Next you'll tell me Samurai Jack is really an exapmleo of what real life samurai can do.

The question of this thread was is Clone Wars cannon. That clip is from Clone Wars. If it is cannon then out of the 10,000 Jedi I" told that the EU says are around this time then out of that number if 5% are as powerful as Mace or slightly less than they could effectively handle the droids - especially the wimpy ones. Anakin and Obiwan for example. But by your scoffing of this Clone Wars clip, I assume you don't believe the Clone Wars is cannon. I can certainly agree with you there.

Except they weren't really. Despite all the evidence that something was very wrong with these clones, Yoda springs the lot of them into action rather than just getting a smaller force to free the Jedi on Geonosis.

Who cares? My speculation about Palpatine counting on it is irrelevant to the larger issue. Why you decided to fixate on this as "important" is beyond me. Then again you can't keep your own position constant, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

Constant? You mean consistent? But I have been. I don't accept the Clone Wars as cannon outside and inside. The whole Clone Wars saga from movie to show I have problem with from storytelling perspective because there is no struggle in a war created and controlled by one man. In-universe I have a problem with the Jedi's decision to use the clones despite all the evidence presented to them that something is clearly not right with the whole way they were created. The Clone Wars storyline is too unbelievable

So the clones weren't meant to be bad guys in ROTS? There was nothing in the film to suggest that they hadn't been prepared for Order 66 from Day 1. Are we suppose to feel bad for these guys as they gunned down the Jedi without pause or remorse? They're either evil or they're little more than fleshy droids following out their programming in either case why should I care about them?

Actually, no, I didn't find the Clonetroopers to be bad guys. I found them to be tragic figures. They're slaves bred to fight and die for a Republic they probably will never, ever, have a say in. The worst part of it is they have only got the barest glimmering of the fact they are slaves- they're happy doing what they do. Indeed, this tends to make them rather tragic figures, and moreso when they execute Order 66. We're shown quite a bit in ROTS (and in the EU) that many of the Jedi like and trust and get along with their Clones, but duty is so ingrained into them that they will kill even their Jedi commanders if they are told to. THere's no malice in it, no anger, no hatred, nothing we would qualify as "evil" in Star Wars, yet they do it anyhow. They, like everyone else in the Prequels, ends up being tools in Palpatine's grand ambition.

None of this tragedy is apparent in ROTS. The trooper leader gets the order which their followers seem to be expecting it and they kill the Jedi. If you're not sure, look at it again:



Look how these tragic figures keep shooting Jedi chick in the back as she falls at 1:22. Oh, the tragedy! We are not suppose to feel sorry for them in this scene! They're bad guys! The fact that you do worries me as it would any pyschologist

That the Storm troopers decades later may be "evil" has no bearing on that.

Yes it does. That's how a prequel story works - to show how things got to be when the original story opened.

Yes, I do. Situation - you have a massive army of droids and clones poised to attack the Republic. You don't think people would want to defend themselves? The Rebels raised their own army from the people willing to fight the oppression of the Empire. I think in a situation like this the Republic would glady volunteer to fight the Separtist threat thus creating a loyal force that we later see in the OT - you know all those non-clone officers and any Imperial with a face. Anyway, look what happened in America in 1941 and 2001. Massive numbers of people volunteered. You're telling me the Republic would just say "We aren't going to fight to save ourselves!"????

And what proof allows you to justify that sort of optimistic thinking, exactly?

The fact that in the original trilogy the Rebellion Alliance was able to create a fighting force out of those who did not want to be oppressed by the Empire. If the Republic was under threat of war and invasion I think a fighting force could have been easily put together of those who would want to defend themselves and their home planets.

The Old Republic as we have seen it in the prequels (nevermind the EU) is both massively corrupt, stagnant, and highly inefficient.

No that wasn't established very effectively at all. The only senators we meet are Amidala and Bail Organa. The Senate seems to do whatever Palpatine wants whenever we actually do see the Senate. There's no scenes of bribery, war-profiteering, double-dealings. etc...

And America is not a good analogy for the Pre-Clone Wars REpublic as far as the military goes, givne the US itself has something of culture of warrior-worship and a massive (if corrupt) military-industrial complex. The Republic, by contrast, is quite "de-militarized", so much so that we start the second movie out with there being a huge argument OVER the creation of a standing military. In short, I suspect you gave this precisely the same amount of thought you gave the rest of your little theory (none at all.)

Actually America was quite demilitarized at the beginning of WWII having reduced its military and armament during two decades of peace. The attack on Pearl Harbor galvanized the nation to gear up its military both in numbers and armament to met the challenges. With 911 America had a much larger standing army than the situation prior to WWII but there was a huge influx of volunteers. So comparing those situations to the Republic are apt. When under threat of invasion especially if attacked, people even aliens will rise to the occassion. They did against the Empire.

Let's see. Your argument seems to boil down to largely 1.) idle speculation and 2.) inability to stay consistently in or out of universe, rather jumping back and forth between the two when it suits you. I take it you remember what fucking forum you are on, and specifically the rules pertaining to this forum? Consistency is a big one. So unless you decide how you are going to argue this, don't bother to fucking reply.

Now you're just being a poopy-head! "Don't bother to fucking reply" - Gimmeabreak, kid!

[Batman]

Sorry, Connor, but waiting for your reply to this is likely to be detrimental to my health.

Chill on the nerd rage a bit. why don't you? What I said was prefectly consistent. At the very bottom line this is all about storytelling. Star Wars is not Star Trek and never the twain shall (or should) meet. Technical problems in Star Wars are less about the science and more about presenting an obstacle for the character to overcome.

Out of universe? Probably yes. Who cares? That doesn't invalidate in-universe concerns.

Going on about the logistics of raising an army in the Star Wars universe given what was established in the original movies with their grandiose armadas, Death Stars, Star Destroyers, I don't think fiscal budgets played much into it.

What grandiose armadas? The biggest fleet we ever saw in the OT was a couple dozen or so Star Destroyers at the battle of Bespin.
And what have the finances of the Empire(which is, you know, a dictatorship, meaning money will go wherever the head honcho says it will) got to do with the Old Republic ?

It's hard to believe that in-universe they couldn't raise a force to combat the Separtists.

Because what, you say so? We're talking about a society that hasn't had to deal with large scale conflict for millenia And who says they couldn't? They couldn't in time to matter. Give the Republic a decade or seven, and they very probably could build a military to stand up to the Seperatists. That's odd, they didn't have that time.

The clones were created under too suspicious of circumstances even without the knowledge the audience has. If the clone template is found working for your enemy and the clones were said to have been ordered by the Jedi Council which they didn't, it spells a trap. The Jedi's motivation for accepting these clones and not suspecting them is a weakness of the script IMHO.

An army whose loyalty is potentially dubious (yet proves to be solid beyond anything you could ask of an ordinary army up until the final betrayal) beats no army at all.

The question of this thread was is Clone Wars cannon.

Seriously, would it kill you people to properly spell canon? Dropping that second n in the middle can't be all that hard.

That clip is from Clone Wars. If it is canon then out of the 10,000 Jedi I" told that the EU says are around this time then out of that number if 5% are as powerful as Mace or slightly less

Where, pray tell, does that 5% number come from?

than they could effectively handle the droids - especially the wimpy ones. Anakin and Obiwan for example. But by your scoffing of this Clone Wars clip, I assume you don't believe the Clone Wars is cannon. I can certainly agree with you there.

Where, if you could be bothered to elaborate, does Connor saying Mace isn't the baseline for Jedi capabilities equal to dismissing the clip as not canon? Not that I see why this is relevant. Mace Windu (or Yoda, or Anakin for that matter) tossing droids left right and center by the truckload is moderately irrelevant. That's going to help them in space combat how exactly?

Constant? You mean consistent? But I have been. I don't accept the Clone Wars as cannon outside and inside.

Thankfully, that decision isn't yours to make.

The whole Clone Wars saga from movie to show I have problem with from storytelling perspective because there is no struggle in a war created and controlled by one man.

Because-you say so. Everybody else seems to be perfectly capable of understanding how The Clone Wars rendering the Clones people rather than fleshy robots improved on their depiction of them, and made their final betrayal all that more tragic.

In-universe I have a problem with the Jedi's decision to use the clones despite all the evidence presented to them that something is clearly not right with the whole way they were created.

Clones-an army readily available, however dubious its origins. Separatists- an army definitely available. Rest of the Republic-nothing. Yeah, who would go with the Clone army when the only alternative is automatic defeat?

The Clone Wars storyline is too unbelievable

Because...you say so. What's unbelievable about it?

None of this tragedy is apparent in ROTS.

Which naturally means it couldn't possibly have been introduced later. As in, when they did the Clone Wars cartoons.

Look how these tragic figures keep shooting Jedi chick in the back as she falls at 1:22. Oh, the tragedy! We are not suppose to feel sorry for them in this scene!

Notice the bolded.

They're bad guys! The fact that you do worries me as it would any pyschologist

Frankly your state of mind worries me a lot more than Connors. The clonetroopers were, somehow, made to betray the Jedi via Order 66. Up to and until then they performed bravely, and compassionately and decidedly NOT evil-ly . There's zero evidence for clonetroopers misbehaving during the Clone Wars (feel free to present evidence to the contrary).

That the Storm troopers decades later may be "evil" has no bearing on that.

Yes it does. That's how a prequel story works - to show how things got to be when the original story opened.

Which is completely correct and completely false at the same time.
Yes, a prequel generally shows how how things got to where the original show opens. Doesn't mean the situations are identical. Just because the guys in the white armour in the OT are working for the Bad Guys doesn't mean the guys in the white armour in the PT are.
As it turned out, they were, but until Order 66 was invoked, the clones were working for the Good Guys.

The fact that in the original trilogy the Rebellion Alliance was able to create a fighting force out of those who did not want to be oppressed by the Empire. If the Republic was under threat of war and invasion I think a fighting force could have been easily put together of those who would want to defend themselves and their home planets.

It's a pity the Republic wasn't. Until the seperatists showed up the Republic had been at peace (well, largely) for thousands of years. Enter the Clone Army, which just happens to be available when you need a strong military right the fuck now.
And just for the record, the Rebel Alliance never were a credible military threat.

[Ritterin Sophia]

There's zero evidence for clonetroopers misbehaving during the Clone Wars (feel free to present evidence to the contrary).

That's not true though. Alpha-Ø2, Spar, was a defective Alpha-class ARC Trooper who somehow rejected Kaminoan reconditioning and eventually went on to assume Jango's identity during the Clone Wars. There's also Sergeant Slick who betrayed the Republic in The Clone Wars. However, Spar is obviously defective and both Rex and Commander Cody leveled the same accusation at Slick. Which as we already determined, Clone Troopers aren't supposed to be able to reject orders, with the exception of course of some ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos who are given extra independent thought.

[The Romulan Republic]

What grandiose armadas? The biggest fleet we ever saw in the OT was a couple dozen or so Star Destroyers at the battle of Bespin.

Its a bit of a nitpick, but I think you mean the Battle of Endor.

And just for the record, the Rebel Alliance never were a credible military threat.

I have to disagree with this. I would say that destroying two Death Stars and killing the Emperor makes them a credible threat.

General Schatten, I'll add another example of "misbehaving" Clones: the ones in Dark Lord who refuse to carry out Order 66.

[Ritterin Sophia]

General Schatten, I'll add another example of "misbehaving" Clones: the ones in Dark Lord who refuse to carry out Order 66.

You aren't really, as I already mentioned Clone Commandos don't go through the same kind of indoctrination a line trooper does because it diminishes their ability to think independently.

[Batman]

What grandiose armadas? The biggest fleet we ever saw in the OT was a couple dozen or so Star Destroyers at the battle of Bespin.

Its a bit of a nitpick, but I think you mean the Battle of Endor.

I most certainly did, thanks for the correction. Interesting mistake given there was no battle of Bespin, only one side had warships and none of them ever fired a shot, so I wonder what I was thinking when I posted that.

And just for the record, the Rebel Alliance never were a credible military threat.

I have to disagree with this. I would say that destroying two Death Stars and killing the Emperor makes them a credible threat.

I said credible 'military' threat. Which they never were. Even at Endor, they were heavily outgunned even without the Death Star being partially operational and that was with all of one Sector Fleet present.

[Havok]

The question of this thread was is Clone Wars cannon. That clip is from Clone Wars. If it is cannon then out of the 10,000 Jedi I" told that the EU says are around this time then out of that number if 5% are as powerful as Mace or slightly less than they could effectively handle the droids - especially the wimpy ones. Anakin and Obiwan for example. But by your scoffing of this Clone Wars clip, I assume you don't believe the Clone Wars is cannon. I can certainly agree with you there.

For the record ronindave, Clone Wars and The Clone Wars are two different sources. This thread questions if the latter is ca-ONE N-on. THE Clone Wars is canon. The canon status of Clone Wars is in question at best, so scoffing at Mace Windu jumping miles and everything else he does in that episode, is fine, while not at all questioning the canon status of THE Clone Wars.

[The Romulan Republic]

I said credible 'military' threat. Which they never were. Even at Endor, they were heavily outgunned even without the Death Star being partially operational and that was with all of one Sector Fleet present.

I'm reluctant to continue debating this here because its rather off-topic and I don't want to be accused of thread highjacking, so perhaps it would be best to start another thread for this discussion. However:

-An Imperial officer in Episode IV describes the Rebels as "more dangerous than you realize.", and the guy he's arguing with says "Dangerous to your starfleet...". Note that this is the Episode IV Rebellion, which is probably weaker than the Episode VI Rebellion.

-the fleet at Endor was still strong enough to put up a good fight.

-the Alliance was supported by a number of fairly powerful worlds. Alderan and Dac for sure, and probably others. It also enjoyed significant support from the Bothans and Corillea.

Did they have the force to besiege and occupy Coruscant? No. Does that mean they weren't a threat? Again, no.

[Jim Raynor]

The last time I watched AOTC, I was taken at how unthreatening the clone army was to the Republic. The movie had some obvious scenes that were supposed to seem menacing in a general militaristic way (like Obi-Wan watching the clones marching in formation), but the question of their loyalty was quickly settled and not called into question.

The movie began with Padme trying to convince other influential politicians not to militarize the Republic. While sitting in the theater while watching the movie for the first time, I read between the lines and assumed that the early assassination were the result of her anti-military stance. Obi-Wan (and later Yoda), a Jedi who can read thoughts and sense emotions, vouched for the honesty of the Kaminoans. If the Kaminoans were knowingly in some conspiracy against the Republic, then it was the worst conspiracy ever since they happily let Obi-Wan go and even encouraged him to report to the Jedi Council! Obi-Wan reported what the Kaminoans honestly told him, which was that the clones were meant to serve the Republic, and that they had been secretly ordered at the request of the Senate (the same Senate that the movie had earlier portrayed as wanting to militarize).

And yes, there was an actual conspiracy, but the conspirator was at the very heart of the Republic itself and controlling both sides of the equation. A situation that was practically unimaginable, and which sounds as credible as those conspiracy theories about President Obama being a Muslim/Commie/Nazi sleeper agent.

Reading some online draft scripts for the movie, I've found that some more lines emphasizing this direction even more had been unfortunately cut out. But it's still there. The movie does not portray the clones as being hostile to the Republic. I think a problem is the cultural attitude toward the concept of the "evil clone." A lot of people heard there were clones and walked in expecting the clones to be bad guys, seeing them as villains right away.

In the movie, Obi-Wan says that he has traced Jango Fett to a Separatist world, before he was cut off and didn't get to explain anything further. The Republic government had no time to make any decision, besides voting to create an army in the future. The Jedi made their own rescue mission, and Yoda went to Kamino to inspect the army himself (and like Obi-Wan, he can look into people and sense things about them). The activation of the clone army was his own hasty decision, and they paid off in battle. Jango of course leaves some questions, but the simple answer is that he was a merc and had been bought off by the Separatists after participating in the cloning program. Of course AOTC never even had to deal with that, because there are only a few very brief scenes after the Battle of Geonosis (one of which even had the Jedi deciding to inspect the Senate more closely).