Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Eternal_Freedom]

Now that I think about it, did Vader ever say anything about destroying Alderaan? It always seemed to be Tarkin's idea.

As for Anakin's redemption, I think it can work equally well - a person who is an asshole, then becomes worse, but despite that he still pulls himself back to save his son.

But that's just me I guess.

[Rogue 9]

Now that I think about it, did Vader ever say anything about destroying Alderaan? It always seemed to be Tarkin's idea.

It was Tarkin's idea. In the radio drama, and I think also the novelization, Vader objects, saying that "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems! The Emperor should be consulted!" Tarkin overruled him, saying the Emperor had given him the authority to use the station and the decision was his.

[Grumman]

As for Anakin's redemption, I think it can work equally well - a person who is an asshole, then becomes worse, but despite that he still pulls himself back to save his son.

The problem there is that an asshole might still save his son for purely selfish reasons - because he is his son, his heir, his property and not because it is the right thing to do.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Whilst that's true, Vader was clearly wrestling with some moral issue while watching his son be tortured. Add to that Luke and Vader's conversation before, and the idea of redemption was clearly in Vader's mind, he even seemed tempted by it but said "It's too late for me son." Then, he sees the opportunity to finally do the right thing, save his son and destroy the Emperor in one move, so he does.

Summary: It's possible that Vader saved Luke for purely selfish/pragmatic reasons, the way he did it and their earlier conversations suggests he did it because it was right.

[Metahive]

I simply don't find this arc compelling. There's also the fact that Vader's redemption as is (that is with the canonical "Anakin was a great hero" backstory) already stands on shaky ground. In neither ANH nor ESB does Vader show any signs of introspection or wavering in his convictions. In ESB especially he mercilessly batters and mutilates his son and plans to use him as a tool to betray his master and grab all the power for himself. In ROTJ he's suddenly down to a wimpy "it's too late for me" who meekly follows Palpatine's commands and suddenly can't find himself watching his son getting zapped. That's already not the strongest of redemption stories but IMHO still miles better than if Vader had been a jackass since adolescence who out of the blue felt like doing something decent that day.

[Channel72]

Yeah. We often forget that a lot of the OT character arcs aren't exactly well written either. I think Han Solo's character arc works very well, but one of the things that I thought never worked was Luke. ROTJ makes a big deal about the possibility of Luke turning to the Dark Side, but I never felt he was ever in any real danger of turning evil. Even when the Emperor is taunting him and forcing him to get angry, it never really feels like an effective strategy because Luke has never demonstrated any dark-side inclinations in the past.

Still, prequel Anakin's characterization is definitely the worst of them all.

[Batman]

I sometimes wonder if I'm still watching the OT as it actually is (mind you Lucas continually retooling it certainly didn't help). It's been 30+ years, and I've absorbed so much Wars information from various sources, am I still looking at the OT as it is (or used to be), or am I looking at the OT filtered through lenses incorporating all the EU/PT/CW information?

[Havok]

I love how everyone just glosses over the fact that the men, women and children he slaughtered kidnapped and tortured his mother to death and he got there just in time for her to die in his fucking arms.

No, they didn't. Even if every adult in the camp was complicit in her murder, even if he killed the ones responsible, a decent human being would stop before hacking apart every child in the camp.

Why? This isn't an isolated case. It's not like this is the first time Sandpeople had taken hostages and tortured them. It is a way of life. Those kids were already being taught to do what their parents did. It is to Anakin's credit that he even feels bad for them because there was ZERO chance they would grow up to be or do anything different. Hey they would have been the same age as the sandpeople that attacked and tried to kill Luke and steal his landspeeder because... Oh right, that's what they do.

And again, you have no idea the grief or anger he felt over the situation and no idea the pull of the dark side had on him while he was in a state of undoubted pure despair, anger and rage.

You guys are fucking idiots. You take this incident as if it was completely isolated from everything else going on, like the Force just magically turned off and he was just a normal human who decided to kill people. I mean why listen to everything that Yoda and Obi-Wan saying about being beware of the dark side.

Also to call him evil at that point is fucking moronic. Did he immediately throw on a black cape and start twirling his mustache? Fuck, the kid broke down in tears because of what he did. Oh how evil. It followed him through his life as a source of guilt and shame. Last time I checked, evil people don't give a fuck about shit like that.

[Havok]

My allusions to the cartoon series are not meant to excuse the writing of the PT, quite the opposite in fact. IMO they highlight the bad writing of the latter. I'm just using them to demonstrate the fact that the deconstruction of the fallen hero that is offered by some people here as an excuse for !MovieAnakin's attitutede is not intentional as well as being uncanonical.

You mean a show that is a half hour and runs for 6 seasons has more time to develop and flesh out a character better than three two hour movies? Shocking.

[Metahive]

You mean a show that is a half hour and runs for 6 seasons has more time to develop and flesh out a character better than three two hour movies? Shocking.

It doesn't take 6 seasons of a show to potray someone as a heroic if flawed and sympathetic person and I find it hard to believe that you really think so. Six hours worth of big budget cinema should definitely be sufficient to get this impression across, yet in the PT's case they simply don't.

Six hours is a lot of time!

[Havok]

How is Anakin shown as not heroic?
Lets recap:
Gives the Jedi shelter in a sandstorm.
Saves the Jedi by winning the podrace.
Save the Naboo and Gungans by blowing up the droid control ship.
Tracks down the assassin that tried to kill Padme.
Protects Padme on her trip to Naboo.
Does everything he can to rescue his mother.
Goes to rescue Obi-Wan.
Wants to go back for Padme, whom could be dead, but does what she would have done and carries on with the mission.
Tracks down Dooku with Obi-Wan.
Rescues the Chancellor and Obi-Wan.
Lands a gigantic ship breaking apart and on fire.
Doesn't want to be a spy for the Jedi against his friend and mentor.
Discovers the true identity of Palpatine and promptly reports it.
Calls for Palpatine's capture, not his execution.

And yeah, six hours is a lot of time. At least HALF of which was used on things NOT Anakin. In the first movie alone, Anakin was little more than a secondary player. And most of the time was spent in a pod racer or a Star fighter... oh yeah, being heroic.

You guys can not seem to differentiate between "shown as heroic" and "I think the actor sucks and don't like the way he became Vader 'cause it wasn't OMGKEWL enough"

[Metahive]

To demonstrate my point, here's three potential slight rewrites of the PT that would go a long way to make Anakin a sympathetic character

TPM
A scene where Kid Anakin is quietly sobbing in his bunk on the Queen's Yacht over having left his mother behind. Have Padme meet him in this state and comfort him. Have Kid Anakin ask her to not tell anyone because he wants to look strong and confident around others and especially the Jedi. There, immediate sympathy and establishing of character. Anakin wants to have the appearance of control over his destiny and he will wear a mask to achieve it. Foreshadowing of the real mask he'll wear later and showing that while his Midichlorian count might be OVER 9000 he's still just a little kid.

AOTC
As I already stated elsewhere, have Anakin hide his deed from Padme and harbors feelings of guilt over it. Padme once again comforts him over his mother's dead but it makes him feel worse because he knows he's not being honest with her and it keeps hounding him which he tries to rectify with increased heroics in the war leading to the point below. Anakin might be prone to angry outbursts, but he's also still got a conscious.

ROTS
Instead of throwing a childish temper tantrum in front of the Jedi Council he quietly accepts his lack of promotion to master and instead later confides to Padme that he thinks that for all his deeds in the Clone Wars he would deserve at least a little bit of recognition. Maybe have him argue this way to Obi Wan too. Even better, have Obi Wan retort in a way that would make Anakin feel even more deserving of rewards and aggrandization. There, an obvious hook for Palpatine to exploit is in place and something for Obi Wan to blame himself as he does in the OT.

I don't think working this into the script would have taken six seasons, no would it?

[Havok]

To demonstrate my point, here's three potential slight rewrites of the PT that would go a long way to make Anakin a sympathetic character

Oh gawd... Ok fine.

TPM
A scene where Kid Anakin is quietly sobbing in his bunk on the Queen's Yacht over having left his mother behind. Have Padme meet him in this state and comfort him. Have Kid Anakin ask her to not tell anyone because he wants to look strong and confident around others and especially the Jedi. There, immediate sympathy and establishing of character. Anakin wants to have the appearance of control over his destiny and he will wear a mask to achieve it. Foreshadowing of the real mask he'll wear later and showing that while his Midichlorian count might be OVER 9000 he's still just a little kid.

How is that any different from the scene where he is obviously distraught over leaving his mother and Padme comforts him? Because your version beats you over the head with tears?
And obviously the kid IS fucking strong and confident. He had his moment of doubt on Tattoine and with his mother's blessing went on to live out his dream. At 9 fucking years old. Which falls in line with all the heroism he demonstrates in TPM and creates a nice parallel with Luke from ANH.

AOTC
As I already stated elsewhere, have Anakin hide his deed from Padme and harbors feelings of guilt over it. Padme once again comforts him over his mother's dead but it makes him feel worse because he knows he's not being honest with her and it keeps hounding him which he tries to rectify with increased heroics in the war leading to the point below. Anakin might be prone to angry outbursts, but he's also still got a conscious.

Other than casting Padme in a bad light, again, how is this any fucking different than what is shown? Anakin has guilt about the sandpeople. He breaks down crying about it. Palpatine practically says "hey dude, remember how guilty you are about the sandpeople?" You think just because he told Padme that he somehow absolved himself of the deed and was guilt free? Geezuz.

ROTS
Instead of throwing a childish temper tantrum in front of the Jedi Council he quietly accepts his lack of promotion to master and instead later confides to Padme that he thinks that for all his deeds in the Clone Wars he would deserve at least a little bit of recognition. Maybe have him argue this way to Obi Wan too. Even better, have Obi Wan retort in a way that would make Anakin feel even more deserving of rewards and aggrandization. There, an obvious hook for Palpatine to exploit is in place and something for Obi Wan to blame himself as he does in the OT.

Uh, so instead of saying how feels and thinks directly to the people that need to hear it, he should instead tell his girlfriend and and be passive aggressive to Obi-Wan. Who is the childish one?
Oh and then have Palpatine do EXACTLY what he did in the movie the way it is? Fucking christ.

[Metahive]

How is that any different from the scene where he is obviously distraught over leaving his mother and Padme comforts him? Because your version beats you over the head with tears?
And obviously the kid IS fucking strong and confident. He had his moment of doubt on Tattoine and with his mother's blessing went on to live out his dream. At 9 fucking years old. Which falls in line with all the heroism he demonstrates in TPM and creates a nice parallel with Luke from ANH.

I see none of that in the movie. Anakin acts stoic and confident the entire time and it makes the character boring. Sorry, but a kid that had a strong connection to its mother (so strong that it supposedly drives him into murderous rage once she's killed) and is separated for the first time from her would have a much stronger reaction over it. If you think that's sufficiently portrayed in the movie then I can only say that I strongly disagree.

Other than casting Padme in a bad light, again, how is this any fucking different than what is shown? Anakin has guilt about the sandpeople. He breaks down crying about it. Palpatine practically says "hey dude, remember how guilty you are about the sandpeople?" You think just because he told Padme that he somehow absolved himself of the deed and was guilt free? Geezuz.

He blames Obi Wan for it. He doesn't show any signs of feeling guilt. He's not acting differently after the massacre than from how he did before. He was reckless, cocky and whiny before, and after he butchered women and children he continues to be reckless, cocky and whiny. I don't see any development.

Uh, so instead of saying how feels and thinks directly to the people that need to hear it, he should instead tell his girlfriend and and be passive aggressive to Obi-Wan. Who is the childish one?
Oh and then have Palpatine do EXACTLY what he did in the movie the way it is? Fucking christ.

You think throwing an unprofessional temper tantrum in front of your superiors is less childish than confiding into your friends and allies over it in quiet. I strongly disagree. And the hook Palpatine used was "I can save your wife", nothing else.

I find your defence of the PT's script unconvincing. We will probably never agree over this, so I offer to agree to disagree.

[Havok]

How is that any different from the scene where he is obviously distraught over leaving his mother and Padme comforts him? Because your version beats you over the head with tears?
And obviously the kid IS fucking strong and confident. He had his moment of doubt on Tattoine and with his mother's blessing went on to live out his dream. At 9 fucking years old. Which falls in line with all the heroism he demonstrates in TPM and creates a nice parallel with Luke from ANH.

I see none of that in the movie. Anakin acts stoic and confident the entire time and it makes the character boring. Sorry, but a kid that had a strong connection to its mother (so strong that it supposedly drives him into murderous rage once she's killed) and is separated for the first time from her would have a much stronger reaction over it. If you think that's sufficiently portrayed in the movie then I can only say that I strongly disagree.

He is clearly sad over departing with his mother, I'm sorry you need tears and exposition to see that, but that is your fault. On top of that you are confusing and combining leaving her to live her life with Anakin having premonitions of her torture and fucking death, which he is forced to ignore until it is too late. Kinda a different thing.

Other than casting Padme in a bad light, again, how is this any fucking different than what is shown? Anakin has guilt about the sandpeople. He breaks down crying about it. Palpatine practically says "hey dude, remember how guilty you are about the sandpeople?" You think just because he told Padme that he somehow absolved himself of the deed and was guilt free? Geezuz.

He blames Obi Wan for it. He doesn't show any signs of feeling guilt. He's not acting differently after the massacre than from how he did before. He was reckless, cocky and whiny before, and after he butchered women and children he continues to be reckless, cocky and whiny. I don't see any development.

Of course he blames Obi-Wan. He blames the whole Order for it. That's the fucking point. What the fuck movie are you watching? They told him to "let go" and basically ignore his dreams, which turned out to be 100% accurate and because of that, his feelings of guilt are transferred to and focused on keeping Padme alive no matter the cost because he is terrified of her dying and feeling what he did when his mother died and DOING WHAT HE DID when his mother died because he is 100% positive that if he doesn't act this time, Padme will die.

And he was, as you so clearly want him to do, confiding in a friend about his feelings, which you call whiny, yet would be the "adult" thing in one of your stupid versions.

As for him being reckless and cocky, when is he reckless? Because he jumps out of a speeder? He lands exactly where he wants to be. He isn't any more cocky or arrogant than any other Jedi on screen, he just happens to be a teenager. But tell me, how is someone that is labeled as the "Chosen One" and knows he is naturally stronger in the Force than any Jedi in existence being cocky because he wants to be a better and more powerful Jedi? Is that cocky or impatient?

OMG a 19 year old being impatient and impulsive! How is that even REALISTIC?!

Uh, so instead of saying how feels and thinks directly to the people that need to hear it, he should instead tell his girlfriend and and be passive aggressive to Obi-Wan. Who is the childish one?
Oh and then have Palpatine do EXACTLY what he did in the movie the way it is? Fucking christ.

You think throwing an unprofessional temper tantrum in front of your superiors is less childish than confiding into your friends and allies over it in quiet. I strongly disagree. And the hook Palpatine used was "I can save your wife", nothing else.

Ok, so yeah, you obviously didn't watch the movie.
Palpatine sure as fuck used his guilt about the sandpeople against Anakin, you know the scene where Palpatine fucking says LITERALLY "Remember what you told me about your mother and the sandpeople.", and you then HEAR the sounds of the sandpeople screaming while Anakin winces at the memory, along with the Jedi not trusting him and being able to save Padme from certain death, were all used as hooks. For fucks sake, pay attention.

And yes, confronting your superiors, temper tantrum or no, is definitely more favorable and HONEST than going home to bitch to your wife or your friend, who is one of those superiors, because it puts them both in a position they may not want to be in, like oh I don't know, agreeing with your superiors. And again, it's childish, passive-aggressive and whiny, which you derided before.

Anakin's flaw is that his emotions get the better of him. But you probably missed that too.

I find your defence of the PT's script unconvincing. We will probably never agree over this, so I offer to agree to disagree.

I find your comprehension of the movie unconvincing. Disagree all you want. You're wrong.

[Metahive]

He is clearly sad over departing with his mother, I'm sorry you need tears and exposition to see that, but that is your fault. On top of that you are confusing and combining leaving her to live her life with Anakin having premonitions of her torture and fucking death, which he is forced to ignore until it is too late. Kinda a different thing.

No I didn't ignore anything, it's more like you refuse to actually see my point and instead focus on insulting me.

Of course he blames Obi-Wan. He blames the whole Order for it. That's the fucking point. What the fuck movie are you watching? They told him to "let go" and basically ignore his dreams, which turned out to be 100% accurate and because of that, his feelings of guilt are transferred to and focused on keeping Padme alive no matter the cost because he is terrified of her dying and feeling what he did when his mother died and DOING WHAT HE DID when his mother died because he is 100% positive that if he doesn't act this time, Padme will die.

None of that is portrayed in any sensical way in the movies. Anakin is shown flaunting Jedi rules whenever he feels like it and yet he never even tried to inform himself of his mother's well-being to the point he was completely surprised to learn she was free and married. That's not what a loving son looks and acts like.

And he was, as you so clearly want him to do, confiding in a friend about his feelings, which you call whiny, yet would be the "adult" thing in one of your stupid versions.

You clearly haven't grasped a damn thing I've written.

As for him being reckless and cocky, when is he reckless? Because he jumps out of a speeder? He lands exactly where he wants to be. He isn't any more cocky or arrogant than any other Jedi on screen, he just happens to be a teenager. But tell me, how is someone that is labeled as the "Chosen One" and knows he is naturally stronger in the Force than any Jedi in existence being cocky because he wants to be a better and more powerful Jedi? Is that cocky or impatient?

Believing in your own hype is not a sign of maturity when there's nothing to show for it but the Midichlorian count being OVER 9000. For the record, !Animated Anakin thinks the whole Chosen One Business is a bunch of hooey (see the Mortis three parter). As for being reckless and cocky, well, he rushes to Geonosis with Padme alone without even knowing where Obi Wan is held and how strong the fortifications are, loses his lightsaber and is captured for his troubles. He rushes at Dooku and gets his hand hacked off for nothing. He shoots at the Buzz droids on Obi Wan's ship and predictably hits the craft instead. He rushes into the altercation between Palpatine and Windu and decides on a whim to trust a known liar and deceiver. His recklessness brought about the rise of the Galactic Empire and is acknowledged in universe to be a major flaw.

OMG a 19 year old being impatient and impulsive! How is that even REALISTIC?!

There are people who act maturly at 19 years old and some who don't. The latter I don't find to be sympathetic.

Palpatine sure as fuck used his guilt about the sandpeople against Anakin, you know the scene where Palpatine fucking says LITERALLY "Remember what you told me about your mother and the sandpeople.", and you then HEAR the sounds of the sandpeople screaming while Anakin winces at the memory, along with the Jedi not trusting him and being able to save Padme from certain death, were all used as hooks. For fucks sake, pay attention.

Major case of SHOW DON'T TELL. You can tell that Anakin feels guilty about it, but you also need to show it. It's just like when we're told that Captain Archer is a trained diplomat when he's constantly acting undiplomatic. There was no change in Anakin's attitude whatsoever, so I don't care what the movie TELLs me is the case, I want to be shown.

And yes, confronting your superiors, temper tantrum or no, is definitely more favorable and HONEST than going home to bitch to your wife or your friend, who is one of those superiors, because it puts them both in a position they may not want to be in, like oh I don't know, agreeing with your superiors. And again, it's childish, passive-aggressive and whiny, which you derided before.

Acting like a spoiled brat that didn't get a pony for his 16th birthday in front of your superíors will make it less likely for them to acquiesce to his demands, especially when they already look suspicious upon open displays of negative emotions in general. Anakin acted unprofessionally and counterproductively.
Also, who says I want Anakin to act passive-aggressive and whiny? You're presuming things not in evidence. He wouldn't have to do it in a whiny and entitled way, just discussing with Padme and Obi Wan why he wasn't made a master and what he should do next. Obi Wan could tell him that he definitely deserved being made master and that he would have a talk with his colleagues later and that might have planted the thought firmly in Anakin's mind that he was entitled to more. Logical progress in character development.

Discussing things that depress you with your friends is a pretty normal fucking thing to do.

Anakin's flaw is that his emotions get the better of him. But you probably missed that too.

No, I get that. What you are missing is that I think it wasn't done well and ended up making him look unsympathetic. If you like him, great, more power to you. But don't presume you can force your opinion down my throat.

I find your comprehension of the movie unconvincing. Disagree all you want. You're wrong.

You know, I think I get now why you're so enarmored with !Movie Anakin...

[Metahive]

Missed one point and the edit window:

No, Palpatine's sole hook is saving Anakin's wife. If you removed this one thing then Anakin wouldn't have rushed to Palpatine's office and witnessed the altercation since then there would have been no urgency to it. Remember when Anakin says "It's against the code, he must be put on trial" he ultimately ends his spiel with "...I need him!". Anakin couldn't care less about codes and trials (and he murdered a defenseless Dooku just fine for the same reasons Windu gave), all he wanted was Palpatine's Magical Mystery Cure to death in childbed.

And yes, as a reason to betray your former compatriots this is reckless, weak, selfish and stupid since he's trusting someone who's so far betrayed the trust of everyone else, including his former apperentice which Anakin witnessed in person and was an instrument in!

[Purple]

Yeah. We often forget that a lot of the OT character arcs aren't exactly well written either. I think Han Solo's character arc works very well, but one of the things that I thought never worked was Luke. ROTJ makes a big deal about the possibility of Luke turning to the Dark Side, but I never felt he was ever in any real danger of turning evil. Even when the Emperor is taunting him and forcing him to get angry, it never really feels like an effective strategy because Luke has never demonstrated any dark-side inclinations in the past.

Still, prequel Anakin's characterization is definitely the worst of them all.

To be fair, the Emperor had already turned one Skywalker and had no reason to believe he could not handle another. None in the least because he would have had little to no intelligence about Lukes character beyond assuming he resembles his father.

[Scrib]

Missed one point and the edit window:

No, Palpatine's sole hook is saving Anakin's wife. If you removed this one thing then Anakin wouldn't have rushed to Palpatine's office and witnessed the altercation since then there would have been no urgency to it. Remember when Anakin says "It's against the code, he must be put on trial" he ultimately ends his spiel with "...I need him!". Anakin couldn't care less about codes and trials (and he murdered a defenseless Dooku just fine for the same reasons Windu gave), all he wanted was Palpatine's Magical Mystery Cure to death in childbed.

And yes, as a reason to betray your former compatriots this is reckless, weak, selfish and stupid since he's trusting someone who's so far betrayed the trust of everyone else, including his former apperentice which Anakin witnessed in person and was an instrument in!

Nah. Palpatine's hook is a decade of mentorship and training.The same thing that let him manipulate Anakin into killing Dooku. Just because Anakin told the Council (which he planned to use to his favor) doesn't mean that his plan was to have Anakin burst in and save him.

[Scrib]

You know what? Disregard all of the above. Disregard it hard. This is not the fight I'm looking for.

[Havok]

He is clearly sad over departing with his mother, I'm sorry you need tears and exposition to see that, but that is your fault. On top of that you are confusing and combining leaving her to live her life with Anakin having premonitions of her torture and fucking death, which he is forced to ignore until it is too late. Kinda a different thing.

No I didn't ignore anything, it's more like you refuse to actually see my point and instead focus on insulting me.

Oh waaaaa. Maybe this is why you dislike Anakin so much, you feel like he is a reflection of your own whining.

Of course he blames Obi-Wan. He blames the whole Order for it. That's the fucking point. What the fuck movie are you watching? They told him to "let go" and basically ignore his dreams, which turned out to be 100% accurate and because of that, his feelings of guilt are transferred to and focused on keeping Padme alive no matter the cost because he is terrified of her dying and feeling what he did when his mother died and DOING WHAT HE DID when his mother died because he is 100% positive that if he doesn't act this time, Padme will die.

None of that is portrayed in any sensical way in the movies. Anakin is shown flaunting Jedi rules whenever he feels like it and yet he never even tried to inform himself of his mother's well-being to the point he was completely surprised to learn she was free and married. That's not what a loving son looks and acts like.

How is it nonsensical? Anakin has dreams about his mother being tortured and dying. Turns out his mother was being tortured and died. So when he has the same dreams about Padme... he should just ignore them? He should listen to Yoda and Obi-Wan again and just ignore his dreams/premonitions that were already proven to come true? And you state that Anakin flaunts the rules of the Jedi in the same sentence you point out that HE OBVIOUSLY FUCKING DIDN'T not even to check in on his mother or else he WOULD have known that she was freed. Oops.

Anakin's guilt over killing the sand people is DIRECTLY tied to his guilt over not saving his mother when he knew what was happening to her.

And he was, as you so clearly want him to do, confiding in a friend about his feelings, which you call whiny, yet would be the "adult" thing in one of your stupid versions.

You clearly haven't grasped a damn thing I've written.

It hardly makes sense.

As for him being reckless and cocky, when is he reckless? Because he jumps out of a speeder? He lands exactly where he wants to be. He isn't any more cocky or arrogant than any other Jedi on screen, he just happens to be a teenager. But tell me, how is someone that is labeled as the "Chosen One" and knows he is naturally stronger in the Force than any Jedi in existence being cocky because he wants to be a better and more powerful Jedi? Is that cocky or impatient?

Believing in your own hype is not a sign of maturity when there's nothing to show for it but the Midichlorian count being OVER 9000.

Hype? His power level is fact. Obi-Wan and many others believed for a fact he was the Chosen One. That isn't hype.

For the record, !Animated Anakin thinks the whole Chosen One Business is a bunch of hooey (see the Mortis three parter). As for being reckless and cocky, well, he rushes to Geonosis with Padme alone without even knowing where Obi Wan is held and how strong the fortifications are, loses his lightsaber and is captured for his troubles.

He goes to Geonosis because Padme goes. He was listening to the Jedi Council at that point. Before that he disobeys his orders to go to his mother which would have been a better example, but it is one of only two cases of him disobeying direct orders in the movies and each one has to do with either his mother or wife.

He rushes at Dooku and gets his hand hacked off for nothing.

Again, impatient and angry, reckless yes, but not cocky. Oh and P.S. since you didn't watch the actual movie, Anakin gets a lighting blast when he rushes in to take on Dooku. His hand gets cut off after a fairly long lightsaber duel because he is simply outmatched by Dooku at that point, not because of being reckless or cocky. And even when they later attack him together, Dooku still stands up to them as a pair when both Jedi are even stronger.

He shoots at the Buzz droids on Obi Wan's ship and predictably hits the craft instead.

As opposed to doing what? Just letting them destroy Obi-Wan's ship. For fucks sake if this is going to be your threshold of "reckless and cocky" then the whole Rebel Fucking Alliance was reckless and cocky.

He rushes into the altercation between Palpatine and Windu and decides on a whim to trust a known liar and deceiver. His recklessness brought about the rise of the Galactic Empire and is acknowledged in universe to be a major flaw.

Rushes? He fucking stood in the Jedi Temple staring out the window contemplating what to do for what, like 5 minutes, which given the circumstances was an eternity. Yes his motivations were selfish, but had Mace listened to him and done the right thing, maybe his dumb ass would still be alive (he is alive by the way) and Anakin wouldn't have become Vader. Oh and now you are blaming the Empire on Anakin's decision making... OK.

OMG a 19 year old being impatient and impulsive! How is that even REALISTIC?!

There are people who act maturly at 19 years old and some who don't. The latter I don't find to be sympathetic.

Of course you don't when you either chose to ignore or just flat out don't understand their circumstances and motivations.

Palpatine sure as fuck used his guilt about the sandpeople against Anakin, you know the scene where Palpatine fucking says LITERALLY "Remember what you told me about your mother and the sandpeople.", and you then HEAR the sounds of the sandpeople screaming while Anakin winces at the memory, along with the Jedi not trusting him and being able to save Padme from certain death, were all used as hooks. For fucks sake, pay attention.

Major case of SHOW DON'T TELL. You can tell that Anakin feels guilty about it, but you also need to show it. It's just like when we're told that Captain Archer is a trained diplomat when he's constantly acting undiplomatic. There was no change in Anakin's attitude whatsoever, so I don't care what the movie TELLs me is the case, I want to be shown.

Show? There was no change in Anakin's attitude? How do you sit there and look at TPM Anakin then look at AOTC/ROTS Anakin after his mother dies and he killed the sand people and say there was no change in attitude? Are you blind. Every thing we see in Anakin in the latter two movies is showing him on an emotional roller coaster completely unsure of what is right and wrong, when in The Phantom Menace he is lecturing his mother, Padme and Qui-Gon Fucking Ginn on what is the right thing to do. HOLY SHIT. Watch the fucking movies without your "I hate Jake LLoyd and Hayden Christiansen" blinders on.

And let me point this out, just exactly when is Anakin supposed to show all this guilt? Following Padme to save Obi-Wan? Fighting through the droid factory? Fighting off the three monsters in the Geonosian arena? Fighting thousands of battle droids in that same arena? Fighting Dooku on Geonosis? Flying in to save the Chancellor in the Battle of Coruscant? Fighting for his life against Dooku? Crashing the Separatist battle cruiser while it burns ups and falls apart during reentry?

Have you considered that it is his guilt that causes him to be so impulsive in his attack against Dooku? Or it is his guilt that wants him to fall back and save the clone troopers escorting he and Obi-Wan in the battle of Coruscant? Or, and this is the obvious one, that his guilt drives how he reacts to the dreams about Padme?

His unwavering drive and willingness to do pretty much anything to make sure his dreams about Padme never come true clearly demonstrate a broken and guilt ridden psyche that can easily be traced to his inaction concerning his mother and his over reaction after the fact of her death. All you have to do is pay attention to the movies. Despite what you think of the dialogue or writing, the motivations of the characters are clear as fucking day.

And yes, confronting your superiors, temper tantrum or no, is definitely more favorable and HONEST than going home to bitch to your wife or your friend, who is one of those superiors, because it puts them both in a position they may not want to be in, like oh I don't know, agreeing with your superiors. And again, it's childish, passive-aggressive and whiny, which you derided before.

Acting like a spoiled brat that didn't get a pony for his 16th birthday in front of your superíors will make it less likely for them to acquiesce to his demands, especially when they already look suspicious upon open displays of negative emotions in general. Anakin acted unprofessionally and counterproductively.
Also, who says I want Anakin to act passive-aggressive and whiny? You're presuming things not in evidence. He wouldn't have to do it in a whiny and entitled way, just discussing with Padme and Obi Wan why he wasn't made a master and what he should do next. Obi Wan could tell him that he definitely deserved being made master and that he would have a talk with his colleagues later and that might have planted the thought firmly in Anakin's mind that he was entitled to more. Logical progress in character development.

Complaining to Obi-Wan about the council's decision which Obi-Wan is on, is totally passive-aggressive. Obi-Wan can't enact any change and he gets put in a shitty position. And Obi-Wan fucking basically tells him what you want him to in ROTS, geezuz... "Hey dude, calm down, no one as young as you has ever been on the council. It's already an honor. Being a master will come. Be patient."

And you know what, stop citing "!Clone Wars Anakin" vs "!Movie Anakin" because if you factor in Anakin's actions in the cartoon, his outburst in the council chambers is not only completely fucking justified, but it is absolutely warranted. Christ, what exactly does a guy need to do to win approval of the council? Oh and "!Clone Wars Anakin" breaks more rules and disobeys more orders in three episodes than Anakin does in all three prequel movies. All the cartoon does is make the Jedi look like even bigger dicks for the way they treated and handled a guy that REPEATEDLY put his life on the line to save them all multiple times over.

Discussing things that depress you with your friends is a pretty normal fucking thing to do.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said it's more adult to confront the people who he actually has the issue with. If you don't like that he lost his temper and felt completely insulted fine, but he was correct to address the issue with them and not his pals.

Anakin's flaw is that his emotions get the better of him. But you probably missed that too.

No, I get that. What you are missing is that I think it wasn't done well and ended up making him look unsympathetic. If you like him, great, more power to you. But don't presume you can force your opinion down my throat.

Then say that, but don't blindly ignore what is shown onscreen to fit your version of what happened.

I find your comprehension of the movie unconvincing. Disagree all you want. You're wrong.

You know, I think I get now why you're so enarmored with !Movie Anakin...

I'm not enamored with anyone. Christensen's acting was wooden. His relationship with Padme was completely painful to watch because of the bad dialogue. The best acted scene in the whole PT was when Padme and Anakin weren't even in the same fucking room together. That doesn't mean that I didn't see and understand what was actually shown on screen.

[Metahive]

Havok, this is clearly going nowhere since it seems neither you nor I will budge on this issue, so let me just ask you two questions:

1.Do you think Anakin is written as well as he could be to get the narrative intention of him as a flawed hero across? If not, what would you have improved or changed?

2.Do you accept the possibility that people might genuinely not like !Movie Anakin for reasons that are not related to some personal deficiency of their own?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

[Scottish Ninja]

Whilst that's true, Vader was clearly wrestling with some moral issue while watching his son be tortured. Add to that Luke and Vader's conversation before, and the idea of redemption was clearly in Vader's mind, he even seemed tempted by it but said "It's too late for me son." Then, he sees the opportunity to finally do the right thing, save his son and destroy the Emperor in one move, so he does.

Summary: It's possible that Vader saved Luke for purely selfish/pragmatic reasons, the way he did it and their earlier conversations suggests he did it because it was right.

More than that - Vader was on the fence well before that. I'm pretty confident that Vader had long resented Palpatine, and blamed him for the destruction of his life, and was looking for a way out - but hadn't found one yet, until he confronts Luke at Bespin. That's where he lets the first glimmerings of that idea slip out - "Join me-" he says. And when he sees that his son is willing to commit suicide rather than join him, that has a profound impact on him. So he turns that thought around - he needs to join Luke - and do that, to get his son to accept him, he needs to start thinking like Anakin Skywalker again.

So what does he do in Jedi, to follow up on those thoughts? He lays the groundwork a lot earlier than I think most people see. Consider this - Luke knew Vader was aboard Executor at Endor. So if Luke can sense Vader, Vader sure as shit can sense Luke on board that shuttle - and if he knows that then Vader knows damned well that Tydirium is packed full of Rebels, probably commandos planning on blowing up the shield generator.

And he lets them go.

That's usually called treason (although the Emperor knew about the Rebels on Endor's surface, he doesn't necessarily know how they got there, and Vader didn't have to have told him). If Vader were interested at that point in capturing Luke and defeating the Rebels, all he had to do was order that shuttle hauled aboard his ship. No, they get past only through Vader's desire to give them a fighting chance - the guy on duty was considering ordering Tydirium to stop for inspection, only to be overruled by Vader. I think that in actively aiding the Rebellion at that point, he's well down the path of redemption already. It still takes a good bit more to finish that process, but it was well underway even fairly early in the movie.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'd figured that Vader letting the shuttle go was part of the Emperor's trap. But I see it could work in the way you describe it.

[born in shadow]

No, they get past only through Vader's desire to give them a fighting chance - the guy on duty was considering ordering Tydirium to stop for inspection, only to be overruled by Vader. I think that in actively aiding the Rebellion at that point, he's well down the path of redemption already. It still takes a good bit more to finish that process, but it was well underway even fairly early in the movie.

Minor quibble, the guy on duty was about to let them pass. It's only when Vader asks what's going on does Piett consider stopping the shuttle.

VADER
Where is that shuttle going?

PIETT (into comlink)
Shuttle Tydirium, what is your cargo and destination?

PILOT VOICE (HAN)(filtered)
Parts and technical crew for the forest moon.

The Bridge Commander looks to Vader for a reaction.

VADER
Do they have a code clearance?

PIETT
It's an older code, sir, but it checks out. I was about to clear them.

Vader looks upward, as he senses Luke's presence.

PIETT
Shall I hold them?

VADER
No. Leave them to me. I will deal with them myself.

PIETT (surprised)
As you wish, my lord. (to controller) Carry on.