Ultimate Star Wars book

[Zixinus]

Does the book say what makes lightsaber crystal's have one color or another? Do the Sith still rely on artificial crystals and if yes, must they be infused by the Dark Side and be red?

[Adam Reynolds]

they also seem to forget that we saw what Force Visions are like in ROTS and it was random snippets of info without context. So at best it's just another way to gain information on enemy movements no better then non-Force based methods, at worst it's folly to use it on it's on as your own assumptions can make you totally misjudge what the vision meant.

Long term visions aren't the only way that Jedi see the future. Notice that after Luke saw his vision of Bespin, Yoda was easily able to discover more detail(though his abilities were also clouded by the presence of Vader). They also subconsciously sense danger as well as having the ability to read the emotions and intent of those around them(which is why they have a much harder time against fellow Force users, even if they can sense their presence more easily) . This final ability is the one I am talking about. And it's why lack of planning is a blessing when facing a Jedi. The more you plan, the longer they have to attempt to discover what you are doing*.

* This was also noted by HK-47 in KOTOR 2 when he discussed anti-Jedi tactics.

No, it shouldn't, for there is not a shred of evidence that precog works like you intend it to do. This is just like the borg adaptability wankers - because we see it working in limited circumstances in some select instances, obviously that means it must work all the time. It is bullshit.

I never implied it works all the time. Obviously it doesn't, with the primary limitation being other Force users. Those limited circumstances are those in which there are no other Force users present. Which would be the case with someone like Thrawn as a major antagonist(though in the original books he did have the insane Jorus clone on his side to muddle Luke's abilities).

Yet so many insist we take Han Solo off the cuff comment regarding firepower to kill a planet as a expert engineering statement. Along with the "other side of the galaxy by now" comment.

That second comment is almost certainly accurate. It is same day travel to make it "halfway across the galaxy" in AOTC(Coruscant to Geonosis) and ROTS(Coruscant to Mustafar, stated to be in the outer rim). And it probably had been a period of several hours to a day after they had lost contact.

As for Han's statement, while it was obviously hyperbole to a degree, it is also largely correct as well. The Death Star could overcome the gravitational binding energy in a single shot, something a fleet of smaller ships could never achieve, even if they actually amassed more firepower. I read his comment as "a thousand ships, [each] with more firepower than I--". His disbelief was regarding the fact that so much energy had been delivered at once and that he had never heard about anything capable of this. This is almost exactly analogous to the surprise of Hiroshima. While other cities had been destroyed even worse* with with conventional explosives and incendiaries, Hiroshima took one plane and one bomb.

* Interestingly(and horrifically), the most destructive single bombing raid in history was the 9 March 1945 raids on Tokyo rather than either of the atomic bombings.

[Thanas]

Long term visions aren't the only way that Jedi see the future. Notice that after Luke saw his vision of Bespin, Yoda was easily able to discover more detail(though his abilities were also clouded by the presence of Vader). They also subconsciously sense danger as well as having the ability to read the emotions and intent of those around them(which is why they have a much harder time against fellow Force users, even if they can sense their presence more easily) . This final ability is the one I am talking about. And it's why lack of planning is a blessing when facing a Jedi. The more you plan, the longer they have to attempt to discover what you are doing*.

* This was also noted by HK-47 in KOTOR 2 when he discussed anti-Jedi tactics.

And again, you are taking limited ability to sense some force users and wank it to mean a whole different level of power. There is nothing, nothing to suggest that this is anything more like a general feeling of force users one is close to or who one is able to feel in the force. Certainly nothing like "enemy will attack system X, I feel it".

I never implied it works all the time. Obviously it doesn't, with the primary limitation being other Force users. Those limited circumstances are those in which there are no other Force users present. Which would be the case with someone like Thrawn as a major antagonist(though in the original books he did have the insane Jorus clone on his side to muddle Luke's abilities).

Good lord, this is a perfect example in circular reasoning. You concede there are limitations, then define the limitations to perfectly match the wanking. Except that these limitations are totally arbitrary and just happen to perfetly support your argument.

Long before Joruus ever came to the stage, Thrawn was planning and plotting - with excellent success. Nobody even fucking knew his name, or that the Imperials had a new commander. That is the level of information the precious precog gave the NR, that is to say, absolutely nothing. This gets even worse when Luke and Mara Jade - easily the two most powerful Jedi of their time, especially when working together - go into the Unknown regions. They know nothing what awaits them. They missed the clone of Thrawn and his entire, very long-term strategic plan. Even more, they are regularly suprised by Jedi traps and dangers.

Precog just does not exist like you want to. It works in the immediate split-second before there is danger, but it does not work to:
a) detect traps until they are sprung or immediately about to spring, even when dealing with non-force users
b) detect long-term strategic plans (and there is no more long-term planning than "clone myself and order my suboridnates to build an empire for several decades without anybody knowing about it")
c) detect tactical plans. Notice how Luke gets intercepted by an interdictor cruiser? How the NR is utterly unable to detect Thrawn's plans, even with Joruus out of the picture due to the Ysalmiri? Even though the massive battle would essentially crush the NR? They don't detect that. Nobody does.

Precog just does not work.

[Purple]

One thing to consider when examining post ROTJ precognition and applying the observations to pre-RTS events is that the Jedi as a whole lost 100% of their institutional knowledge. It does not matter what Luke tries to do he simply has to reconstruct the order and all of its techniques from scratch. So even without a shroud of the dark side it is unrealistic to expect any jedi trained for generations upon generations to come will come close to matching the levels of mastery held by the old masters.

[Thanas]

One thing to consider when examining post ROTJ precognition and applying the observations to pre-RTS events is that the Jedi as a whole lost 100% of their institutional knowledge. It does not matter what Luke tries to do he simply has to reconstruct the order and all of its techniques from scratch. So even without a shroud of the dark side it is unrealistic to expect any jedi trained for generations upon generations to come will come close to matching the levels of mastery held by the old masters.

Right - but Palpatine has no such restrictions, has got all the Sith knowledge and powers etc. And yet he and the guys he is training (Sedriss) are surprised at each turn. Heck, Sedriss gets owned by a single Governor and his war droids, with him not noticing anything about it. Palpatine has people stealing stuff right under his nose in his own capital - and those are non-force users.

[Purple]

One thing to consider when examining post ROTJ precognition and applying the observations to pre-RTS events is that the Jedi as a whole lost 100% of their institutional knowledge. It does not matter what Luke tries to do he simply has to reconstruct the order and all of its techniques from scratch. So even without a shroud of the dark side it is unrealistic to expect any jedi trained for generations upon generations to come will come close to matching the levels of mastery held by the old masters.

Right - but Palpatine has no such restrictions, has got all the Sith knowledge and powers etc. And yet he and the guys he is training (Sedriss) are surprised at each turn. Heck, Sedriss gets owned by a single Governor and his war droids, with him not noticing anything about it. Palpatine has people stealing stuff right under his nose in his own capital - and those are non-force users.

Absolutely. I agree with your points, you see. All I am saying is that even if we were to give him everything he wants he'd still lose out in the end on account of any future Jedi being the force user equivalent of HEMA.

[Zixinus]

All I am saying is that even if we were to give him everything he wants he'd still lose out in the end on account of any future Jedi being the force user equivalent of HEMA.

Yes, however there is one big difference between Jedi and HEMA practitioners: Jedi will actually have to rely on what they figured out in real combat. They have to do that right or it will fail in combat. Plus, when they are not on a mission, they have the time and resources to dedicate themselves to figuring everything out in detail.

HEMA practitioners at best do protected full-contact. There has been no or only a handful of cases where a HEMA practitioners have the weapon they trained to use (longsword, sword&buckler, falchion, halbard, battleaxe etc) unless its something simple like a stick (quarterstaff but even that is very, very rare) or their own hands/feet (medieval wrestling). Most people doing HEMA are doing it as a hobby.

[Purple]

Yes, however there is one big difference between Jedi and HEMA practitioners: Jedi will actually have to rely on what they figured out in real combat. They have to do that right or it will fail in combat. Plus, when they are not on a mission, they have the time and resources to dedicate themselves to figuring everything out in detail.

HEMA practitioners at best do protected full-contact. There has been no or only a handful of cases where a HEMA practitioners have the weapon they trained to use (longsword, sword&buckler, falchion, halbard, battleaxe etc) unless its something simple like a stick (quarterstaff but even that is very, very rare) or their own hands/feet (medieval wrestling). Most people doing HEMA are doing it as a hobby.

True, but that's why it's an analogy and not a proper comparison.

[Adam Reynolds]

And again, you are taking limited ability to sense some force users and wank it to mean a whole different level of power. There is nothing, nothing to suggest that this is anything more like a general feeling of force users one is close to or who one is able to feel in the force.

Those are two different abilities. That of Jedi being able to sense the intent of those around them as well as that of Jedi able to sense other Force users.

Certainly nothing like "enemy will attack system X, I feel it".

How do you account for Qui-Gon's premonition that Padme would be assassinated in TPM(which he obviously prevented)?. It wasn't just a well informed opinion, he specifically says "My feelings tell me they will destroy you." That is the type of ability that I am talking about. It is hardly a perfect ability, as the future is always in motion, but it does exist.

Good lord, this is a perfect example in circular reasoning. You concede there are limitations, then define the limitations to perfectly match the wanking. Except that these limitations are totally arbitrary and just happen to perfetly support your argument.

I define those limitations based on what we see in the films. In the films, which override all of the now non-canon EU, the primary counter for Jedi is Sith. Especially when it comes to the larger scale. The main times when Jedi and Sith get caught off guard is because of the intervention of their opposite numbers.

Precog just does not work.

Only in the non-canon EU, which has as much validity as IG-88's Death Star.

One thing to consider when examining post ROTJ precognition and applying the observations to pre-RTS events is that the Jedi as a whole lost 100% of their institutional knowledge. It does not matter what Luke tries to do he simply has to reconstruct the order and all of its techniques from scratch. So even without a shroud of the dark side it is unrealistic to expect any jedi trained for generations upon generations to come will come close to matching the levels of mastery held by the old masters.

Luke shows evidence of this ability with his extremely high risk plan against Jabba. He seemed to know that giving R2 his lightsaber would result in him ending up with it at exactly the right moment. You could argue that this was simply luck, but that hardly fits with Obi-Wan's famous comment.

Absolutely. I agree with your points, you see. All I am saying is that even if we were to give him everything he wants he'd still lose out in the end on account of any future Jedi being the force user equivalent of HEMA.

Obviously Luke would be weaker in the sense that he is less refined, but this is somewhat negated by the fact that he has more potential than most. Once a Jedi learns how to fully tap into the Force, as Luke did with Yoda, it is much more natural than learned martial arts.

[Purple]

Obviously Luke would be weaker in the sense that he is less refined, but this is somewhat negated by the fact that he has more potential than most. Once a Jedi learns how to fully tap into the Force, as Luke did with Yoda, it is much more natural than learned martial arts.

Care to back that statement up?

[Adam Reynolds]

Care to back that statement up?

How about the fact that Luke was more powerful in ROTJ than the end of ESB. He had no additional training, yet his abilities increased considerably.

[Purple]

Care to back that statement up?

How about the fact that Luke was more powerful in ROTJ than the end of ESB. He had no additional training, yet his abilities increased considerably.

You do realize that there is a time lapse between the two within which he presumably trained?

[Adam Reynolds]

You do realize that there is a time lapse between the two within which he presumably trained?

Trained with whom? He only developed his abilities further on his own, which was exactly my point.

[Purple]

You do realize that there is a time lapse between the two within which he presumably trained?

Trained with whom? He only developed his abilities further on his own, which was exactly my point.

Did he not communicate with the disembodied spirit of Obi Wan on Hoth? And besides, Lukes entire plan can be chalked up to simply knowing the MO of someone who is an evil crime boss celebrity. It does not require the level of magical foresight you claim him to have.

[Zixinus]

Luke also grew up on Tatooine. He may have learned about Jabba and his methods during his youth (it would certainly be a subject), or at least knew who to ask so he can create a plan with Leila.

Plus, he may have progressed because he had time to recover and practice what Yoda had taught him.

[Thanas]

And again, you are taking limited ability to sense some force users and wank it to mean a whole different level of power. There is nothing, nothing to suggest that this is anything more like a general feeling of force users one is close to or who one is able to feel in the force.

Those are two different abilities. That of Jedi being able to sense the intent of those around them as well as that of Jedi able to sense other Force users.

So Luke feeling Leia on Bespin was not precog. This is stupid.

How do you account for Qui-Gon's premonition that Padme would be assassinated in TPM(which he obviously prevented)?. It wasn't just a well informed opinion, he specifically says "My feelings tell me they will destroy you." That is the type of ability that I am talking about. It is hardly a perfect ability, as the future is always in motion, but it does exist.

a) No shit, anybody with a functioning brain could have known about that or predicted that. This is as impressive as guessing that Ghaddafi is going to get lynched if Tripoli falls. Huzzah, I am a Jedi now.
b) Again, even if we assume this is precog, it is extremely limited - in this case, on the same planet, on the same continent, within a days travel and already in a situation where the players are clear. Yes, let's no-limit wank this up to "They will know that the enemy will attack system x".

I define those limitations based on what we see in the films. In the films, which override all of the now non-canon EU, the primary counter for Jedi is Sith. Especially when it comes to the larger scale. The main times when Jedi and Sith get caught off guard is because of the intervention of their opposite numbers.

Nope. See clone wars. Ordinary pirates are able to regularly surprise and capture both Jedi and Sith.

Only in the non-canon EU, which has as much validity as IG-88's Death Star.

Hey, it is as if author intent and logical development of the figures in the movies by every author ever does not matter. Very well, then explain why the Jedi are suddenly getting surprised all the time even when they are not fighting against Sith and without Sith influence in Clone wars?

Luke shows evidence of this ability with his extremely high risk plan against Jabba. He seemed to know that giving R2 his lightsaber would result in him ending up with it at exactly the right moment. You could argue that this was simply luck, but that hardly fits with Obi-Wan's famous comment.

He fucking gambled. The lightsaber was just a fall back plan in case his firt plans did not work (and they did not). You will show evidence that Luke suddenly had a vision of precog showing him R2 giving him his lightsaber or you will treat it as the movies define it - a fallback plan.

[Anacronian]

Is it stated somewhere that Luke and Luke alone came up with the plan to free Han Solo from Jabba, Because honestly it seems likely to me that Leia, Lando and Chewbacca would be the original planners since they were to only ones involved in the original plan (Leia getting Han out of the palace).

Luke was clearly the fallback option once Leia got busted.

[Adam Reynolds]

So Luke feeling Leia on Bespin was not precog. This is stupid.

It isn't quite the same type. Visions of the future are one type of precog. Qui-Gon's premonitions are another.

a) No shit, anybody with a functioning brain could have known about that or predicted that. This is as impressive as guessing that Ghaddafi is going to get lynched if Tripoli falls. Huzzah, I am a Jedi now.

Qui-Gon specifically says, "My feelings tell me they will destroy you." That is precog. And the Trade Federation would have little reason to kill Amidala, it would have led to them getting in far worse trouble than merely invading.

b) Again, even if we assume this is precog, it is extremely limited - in this case, on the same planet, on the same continent, within a days travel and already in a situation where the players are clear. Yes, let's no-limit wank this up to "They will know that the enemy will attack system x".

I never claimed exactly that level of ability. The key to their abilities seems to be something of a direct threat.

Hey, it is as if author intent and logical development of the figures in the movies by every author ever does not matter. Very well, then explain why the Jedi are suddenly getting surprised all the time even when they are not fighting against Sith and without Sith influence in Clone wars?

Their abilities were severely limited at this point due to the darkness created by the Clone Wars themselves in addition to the manipulations of the Sith.

He fucking gambled. The lightsaber was just a fall back plan in case his firt plans did not work (and they did not). You will show evidence that Luke suddenly had a vision of precog showing him R2 giving him his lightsaber or you will treat it as the movies define it - a fallback plan.

Unless he was just throwing away his droids, he must have intended for something else that would feature them. That could only be a plan similar to what actually happened.

Is it stated somewhere that Luke and Luke alone came up with the plan to free Han Solo from Jabba, Because honestly it seems likely to me that Leia, Lando and Chewbacca would be the original planners since they were to only ones involved in the original plan (Leia getting Han out of the palace).

Luke was clearly the fallback option once Leia got busted.

If that were plan A, he would have lost R2 and 3PO.

[Zixinus]

I think the central point of the issue is that you assume that the Jedi have precise control over what and when their precognition will work. In the movies and TV series it is treated as if precognition events happen randomly as they seem to do. What the Jedi seem to do when precognition comes up is that they treat it as sudden inspiration: don't be rash to act on, meditate to clarify it. It's treated as an extraordinary thing rather than a usual Jedi power that can happen on command.

<note to lurkers: following argument contains spoilers for SW:CW and SW: Rebels>


Compare Asoka's and Ezra's case. Both get visions of the future unexpectedly, while trying to broaden their connection to the Force. Ezra while in lightsabre practice, Asoka while meditating (IRRC). They were both surprised at the visions and have it unclearly. Asoka has the benefit of Jedi training and the advice of experienced Jedi Master. Ezra is given similar advice as Asoka was given however Ezra does not have the discipline to heed them.

Ezra's vision comes true but not in the way Ezra expected it, his biases misleading him to a wrong conclusion. This was played to dramatic effect and things happen in an opposite way that Ezra interpreted them. What seems like a near-death situation is easily avoided, the man who he expects to give comforting words turns out to be a traitor.

The benefit to Asoka's vision is that becomes clearer over time. There are two reasons for this and neither exclusive of the other: Asoka meditates on her vision and the event she has foresee draws closer in time. It would make sense that with all the possible futures more events happen that narrow down what possible future events happen. However, note Asoka's behaviour when she is not directly reacting to the vision: she talks with Padmé's security team, they actively increase security measures, Asoka doesn't rely on her vision to know what will happen and instead personally escorts Padmé everywhere. In the end, it wasn't foresight that saved Padmé but Asoka's presence and quick reactions. Asoka could only predict what will happen in the last second (which again makes sense: at that point the potential of what will happen has been very, very narrowed down).

The other variation of precognition also happens: Asoka feels that Padmé is in danger (it may not be precognition at all, Ahsoka may have sensed Sing's intentions as some summaries have put it). Curiously, this is kind of counterpoint to your idea that precognition can only be countered by improvisation: Sing couldn't have known of the robot-switch yet clearly improvised her plan (including deciding to stay rather than leave). Ahsoka was clearly able to adept to it anyway, right to the last second.

Note that the result is what you say precognition should do but not in the way you explain it as: it disrupts a well-planned event. However, the primary effect of precognition is giving a warning, not as thwarting the plan trough learning the plan. If that would have been the case, they would have sent a team of guards into the vents that Sing shot Padmé from, or laid traps in the last second. This way they could have apprehended Sing directly and disabling her as a threat.
Instead, the vision remained vague, difficult at best to interpret and unreliable in its accuracy. Whenever Ahsoka directly relied on it she kept raising false alarms. It was Ahsoka's presence and alertness that saved Padmé, not her vision which only gave a warning.