Clone Wars rewrite project

[Crazedwraith]

Me saying or not saying anything is more a consequence of whether i had any energy for internet arguing at the time of the response and felt i had anything to say rather than indicating agreement or disagreement to any argument.

I'd appreciate not being used as point of argument.

[KraytKing]

That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.

Developing contingencies also plays into Palpatine's hands in a propaganda way, I love it. If he can publicize the plans or send copies to clone commanders, well, the proof is right there. The Jedi really WERE trying to launch a coup. Even MORE of the clones will obey Order 66. Definitely going to incorporate that into the story.

Except contingencies doesn't mean 'planning to overthrow the republic'.

Information is subjective. The Jedi don't have to plan to overthrow the Republic, they just have to do something close enough that Palpatine could use it to obfuscate the truth.

And the idea that Palpatine as to convince the clones as people to obey Order 66, really defeats the point of the clones. That kind of stuff is for the public at large, not his custom build, designed, trained tools for Jedi back stabbing.

Good point. I'll concede, a little bit. You're right, he shouldn't have to phone up his commanders and go "look at this, can't you see they're bad? Please please will you kill them?" But, I think it does still support the idea that he wouldn't need brain chip programming or total indoctrination to convince them. If the Jedi are independent enough to actually come up with contingency plans like that, wouldn't that mean they COULD have made one to overthrow the Republic? Wouldn't clone commanders grasp that possibility? When orders come down (through the proper fucking channels, not a personal call from a guy who looks nothing like the C-in-C) and claim that the Jedi have attacked the Chancellor (true) and have plans to decapitate the military (sort of true, from a certain point of view), then the soldiers are going to obey out of fear. Which is nice to thematically connect to "fear leads to the dark side." They will fear what could happen if they DON'T shoot first, and then do it.

Also, the clones are pretty smart. Not your run-of-the-mill recruit armies. They're probably accustomed to getting more detailed intelligence briefings than regular soldiers. You could probably send them some portion of captured plans to allow them to respond in a measured fashion, with the side effect of convincing them it really is true.

The public at large is really who Palpatine has to discredit the jedi with throughout the war(s) via whatever low key not appearing to methods he can. I know you've said you view the jedi as the others with their powers and being outside the normal chain of command. But the way Obi-Wan/ANH presents it, Palpatine has got to over come the good will of being the Guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years without ever trying to overthrow/coup it or anything like. The view of the public of jedi should (again imo) be pretty positive until Palpatine tries to sabotage them.

You can present them as being less shiny to start with of course but that diminishes the tragedy of their fall.

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It doesn't fit with any particular point of yours or Gunheads but that's why I think Palpatine really should be aiming for as high a killcount as possible in order 66 as quickly as possible, It's not just the Jedi order still existing to coordinate actively against him but their mere existence. I think they would be rallying rebellion around them much more effectively than they would in canon, just be existing and refuting Palpatine's propaganda about the order with first hand accounts.

Also why Palpatine would be using the war as an excuse to limit things like freedom of the press and speech long before he actually comes to power.

No quarrel with any of this. I would just say, as I did in the very beginning of the thread, that perhaps the Jedi should have suffered a bit of a fall from their ideals of old. This way, it isn't evil beating good: according to the narrative of Star Wars, good always triumphs over evil. The Empire beat the Jedi because the Jedi weren't good anymore. Overthrowing Jedi like Yoda and Alec Guinness-aged Obi-Wan would have been impossible, because they are good.

Edit:

Me saying or not saying anything is more a consequence of whether i had any energy for internet arguing at the time of the response and felt i had anything to say rather than indicating agreement or disagreement to any argument.

I'd appreciate not being used as point of argument.

You weren't. Your mention was tangential to the point, which was imploring Yan to actually disagree if he disagreed. Similarly, I would implore you to do the same, but at least you aren't crowing "you're still wrong for undefined reasons."

[Darth Yan]

Me saying or not saying anything is more a consequence of whether i had any energy for internet arguing at the time of the response and felt i had anything to say rather than indicating agreement or disagreement to any argument.

I'd appreciate not being used as point of argument.

Sorry about that. I felt that you gave an accurate summation of the problems but I can see why you wouldn't like that.

[Darth Yan]

1.) Because it's a fucking TERRIBLE point.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppxae7/ ... litary-721
https://www.quora.com/Would-psychopaths ... nd-Marines

You imagine the clones as seething sociopaths who want to kill first and foremost, and who leap to the terrible options immediately. Thing is, those guys tend not to follow orders and in military matters a soldier MUST follow orders. In your scenario the Clones would disobey the Jedi LONG before Order 66 (since again you imagine them as having different world views) and thus they'd be in no position to put Order 66 into action. So even if a Clone is willing to commit atrocities they'd be outliers or would strongly consider other options beforehand. Seeing that sometimes the Jedi's plans DO work (since oftentimes yes the riskier plan that involves not making compromises CAN often work.) Even in winning the battle sociopathy doesn't really work.

Basically you fall into the Hard Man making hard decisions while hard trope. You assume that brutal monsters as a baseline are team players.

Oh for God's sake, you still aren't comprehending. The "hard man" trope is a bad thing when you present them as the good guys; when Captain Price has to shoot first and get his hands dirty to keep the world free. This is not the case here. The clones are the bad guys, they are directly tied to the Empire, which exists within the story to be the perfect embodiment of all evil that can be. The narrative purpose of the clones is to be the bad option. The audience is supposed to fall for the hard man trope, thinking "the Jedi don't know how to fight" and cheering the clones on when they make the hard decisions in the name of victory, and THEN be hit with the reality: the clones, and eventually some of the Jedi, taking those "hard man" decisions were directly responsible for the rise of galactic fascism.

The rise of the Empire cannot be a railroaded event, all set in play by Palpatine and completely unavoidable. It must be caused by mistakes the characters make on screen, and all the better if the audience makes those mistakes too. We must cheer as we cheered for Upham in Saving Private Ryan when he shot a surrendering German, only unlike that film, we must then be made to see the horror of what we just celebrated.

I'll say it again. The clones must be the hard men, NOT to achieve victory, but to force the Empire to arise. They cannot make the Republic, the embodiment of good from a writer's perspective, save the galaxy through committing these horrors. The crimes of war are interwoven with the rise of fascism, and pretending the clones wouldn't commit them is a disservice to both fascism and liberalism.

And the big problems are the ones craze wraith and bilateralrope suggested. That if they were truly as conditioned than the Jedi wouldn't trust them, and that would ruin everything.

You must not be reading the thread. I addressed those contentions. Nobody responded, so I assumed I did so to their satisfaction. If you still have a problem with what I said, you should go back and point out what is wrong so I don't have to just guess and say it all again.

1.) Except if they were outright bad guys as you suggest their incompetence would cause their defeat since even in battle contexts hard decisions are usually disastrous. Or it would cause things to come to blows LONG before Palpatine was ready to implement Order 66 simply because of how different their views are (the clones would decide early on the Jedi are weak and thus would turn on them). Even if the Clones are WILLING to do those things, they wouldn't necessarily leap to them as the first resort, and seeing other more humane options work would also have an impact.

The problem is that you want them to be evil to the bone the whole way through without any real change and introspection at all. You're so caught up in your theme that you're pissing on basic logic.

I gave reasons; you just don't like them, which is entirely on you.

As an aside, you mention saving private ryan. When Upham shoots the German it's after he's spent the entire movie being hardened. That makes sense. The soldiers starting out hardened takes away a lot, while having the soldiers devolve is more interesting.


2.) Even in the prequels Palpatine's rise could have been stopped. If the Jedi hadn't been overly attached to their power and blinded by arrogance they could have seen it coming in time to stop it. The Jedi in the prequels, while flawed, were still ultimately benevolent. They don't need to be amoral like you insist on them being. Even in the prequels evil's win is temporary.

3.) You really didn't address them though. You just stated your points and said "because shut up." Again, you're so committed to YOUR vision the you dismiss anything else as either stupid or in the case of you insulting Filoni you call him a hack.

[Darth Yan]

I never said no clones would commit atrocities. I said that a large number wouldn't; that's fair since even in Vietnam there were many soldiers who didn't. KraytKing seems to want the clones to be overwhelmingly violent.

[Crazedwraith]

Me saying or not saying anything is more a consequence of whether i had any energy for internet arguing at the time of the response and felt i had anything to say rather than indicating agreement or disagreement to any argument.

I'd appreciate not being used as point of argument.

You weren't. Your mention was tangential to the point, which was imploring Yan to actually disagree if he disagreed. Similarly, I would implore you to do the same, but at least you aren't crowing "you're still wrong for undefined reasons."

Allow me to make myself clearer. Fuck off, you don't talk for me or state whether I have been convinced or satisfied with your bullshit or not.

[LadyTevar]

OK, Enough of this.
People have explained why the idea won't work/isn't believable.
You've not managed to explain/prove your point, and have only doubled-down on "your vision" of how the rewrite should go.
This discussion is going nowhere.
THREAD CLOSED