On second thought, I'll utterly smackdown this bullshit one last time.
Thirdfain wrote:How do you know it wasn't hurting their defence needs ? At the time, who would the Trade Federation need defence against? That deployment might have been a dangerous, expensive maneuver on the part of the Federation.
This is utterly stupid.
They extravagantly assigned thousands of carriers some no more than ten miles apart to blockade a planet with no defenses other than a handful of squadrons of light fighters and police corps with armed speeders.
If they could afford to use such vast quantities on a political ploy and show of power against a essentially defenseless world, than it stands to reason that this was no great drain on their military resources.
As for other threats, we see in the various games, and in the EU literature that piracy and corporate warfare were a serious threat, even in the Empire's hayday; an era of order. Furthermore, we know that the other corporate conglomerates fielded massive fleets. All of this is merely icing on the cake however; there was enough military neccessity to construct the ten thousand ship fleet seen at Naboo; thus there was enough military threat to counter to require those ships. Therefore there was a security issue which couldn't be ignored to position millions of troops, armor, and fighters over a planet which could no effectively defeat a single one of those carriers.
Thirdfain wrote:How many hundreds of millions of worlds did the New Republic control? having 300 fortified worlds means that only a tiny fraction of the worlds in the New Republic are heavily defended. The other few million worlds, the majority of the Republic worlds, are open to attack from the Remnant.
Black/white fallacy.
Notice. If not all of the inhabited worlds of the NR have full-planet PTL coverage (notice these are just the worlds where w-165 units are deployed, no mention of PICs, or other models of PTLs or shielding), than the NR is underdefended according to Thirdfain. Not only that, but he wholely misses the point as well. The point was, even with all these heavily heavily defended worlds, the Remnant had no problem being a threat to the NR, yet according to Thirdfain, and without evidence, they could not take Calamari, the KDY of the Rebellion.
These strawmen tactics are getting old.
Thirdfain wrote:And how do you know what the costs were of this action? Grand Admiral Thrawn's fleet contained a large number of VSDs and Strike Cruisers- because he was calling in patrol vessels, occupation forces, and other lighter units, due to a dearth of ships of the wall. Thrawn gave up control over thousands of lesser systems and many major trading lanes to facilitate his offensive.
No proof of his claim about Thrawn sacrificing for his offensive.
Simply stating "It must be."
Furthermore, I was talking about Palpatine's forces carving up the New Republic from the Deep Core outward. His forces were reserves recalled after Endor and have nothing to do with progress of the Galactic Civil War so far. Read the Dark Empire Sourcebook. Its said explictly.
Thirdfain wrote:I can't offer you that evidence, besides the fact that we see new-built Mon Cal cruisers appear during the Thrawn campaign. I think it is likely, for reasons I will explain shortly, but no one ever expressly says that Mon Calamari acted as a KDY for the Rebellion.
Evidence is everything. Especially when it does contradicts the premises of your groundless "theories."
The Second Death Star was secretly constructed by 60% in six months and the New Republic has ramped up ISD production to batches in the 100s in just one year in the NJO.
Thus there was no need for there to be a "Rebel KDY" before Endor to explain the existance of Rebel cruisers five years later.
Concession Accepted.
Thirdfain wrote:At the time, Admiral Ackbar was under the influence of Palpatines Jedi Battle Meditation, which I will point out acts not only to strengthen the resolve of your own soldiers, but weaken that of your enemies.
Post Proof or Retract; Thrawn speculated that Palpatine projected low-level mind control over the Imperial Starfleet. The ROTJ novelisation says that the Imperial forces were choatic and dampened by utter fear. No mention directly of Jedi Battle Meditation (by def. a Jedi power, to boot) and no evidence of mind control against the Rebels. Another one of your fantasies with no factual basis.
Stop trying to discard canon dialogue by making up excuses and distorting things without any particular reason. You assume convoluted and ungrounded premises to indirectly aid your pet concept, even though its demonstrated to be absurd on multiple levels.
Thirdfain wrote:Games are shitty sources of information.
When in doubt, Thirdfain will distort, discount, or otherwise dismiss evidence that does not suit his theories.
Thirdfain wrote:We see, on screen, that a trading conglamorate, one of many in the Old Republic, fields thousands of capital ships.
On-screen evidence. The conglomerate has thousands, millions of worlds controlled, and has a broad industrial and economic base, along with many factory and shipyard facilities. The Rebellion is an underground movement largely hiding from the Empire with few overt industrial or production centers.
Thirdfain wrote:Then you go on to say that the Rebel Alliance, an organization which had the support of multiple senators,
Two. Chandrilla's and Alderaan's.
Thirdfain wrote:a large number of collaborators within both the Imperial navy and government,
PPOR. And what's a "large number" and what has this have shit to do with their industrial/economic/territorial holdings that make any comparison with the Trade Federation mean diddly shit?
Thirdfain wrote:an organization which fought the Empire over Endor,
With their entire fleet which could not match one sector group.
Thirdfain wrote:and then began a lengthy campaign which ended with the near complete conquest of the known galaxy,
Utter bullshit. The
New Republic's offensive into the Empire proper did not begin until at least two year post Endor, by which time the New Republic had been building an industrial, military, and economic base while the Imperial warlords, usurpors, and loyalists chewed up the Imperial fleet and infrastructure in a meat-grinder of internal warfare.
They had two years + to prepare. The Death Star II was 60% built in 6 months. They had plenty of time to go from insurgent group to rival galactic government in scale, power, industrial base, territory, and military might.
The pre-Endor Alliance to Restore the Republic and the post-Endor New Republic are not the same thing, and proving the scale of the Alliance to Restore the Republic by citing information about future operations of the New Republic is a red herring.
Thirdfain wrote:had a fleet which consisted of no more than a dozen capital ships and a few escorts? Ridiculous.
Thirdfain doesn't understand burden of proof. All indications say that Endor was most of the Rebel fleet, thus it was must of the Rebel fleet.
Thirdfain must dismiss or distort this because the evidence is not important so long as his little theory can be squeezed the slightest benefit of a doubt.
In short the entire last rant was a bunch of shitty analogies, red herrings, in the form of one massive strawman, despite the fact that the evidence is spelled out in official sources. Which naturally, he dismissed.
Thirdfain wrote:If a trade federation can field 10,000 light carriers, then an organization which caused the collapse of a multi-million world autocratic empire can probably field a few more than a dozen warships. It is ridiculous that the fleet we see over endor is a 90% of the Rebel Alliance.
Thirdfain again cannot comprehend that New Republic 2-2.5 years after Endor != Rebel Alliance.
Thirdfain wrote:You misundertstand the importance the fact that the Calamari wear Mon Cal Navy uniforms while working for the Rebels. It indicates that they are not trying to hide the fact that Mon Calamari is openly assisting the Alliance. If Mon Calamari was providing COVERT assistance, as you assert, then appearing as Mon Cal Navy personnelle would destroy their ruse. A Mon Calamari in an Alliance uniform on the bridge of a retrofitted cruiser is simply a sympathizer. The entire Mon Cal bridge crew was in Mon Cal navy uniform- proof that the Mon Cal government is openly helping the Alliance.
Congrats! You've won the
Fucking duh! award.
Why do you think Calamari got crushed by the Empire in the first place? Gee maybe it was because they were enemies of the Empire.
The Mon Calamari supported the Seperatists. They have been known Enemies of the State to the Empire since the Clone Wars. Your proof is worthless.
As for the support of the government, apparently you never heard of
French General Charles DeGaulle, during the WWII, when the actual atonomous government of France was defunct. Their allegiance to the Calamari government does not mean that that government is in power or in control of a "Rebel KDY."
Thirdfain doesn't know what a government-in-exile is. Thus they must be too tough for the Empire to afford tackling!
Thirdfain wrote:ISDs mount numerous missile tubes.
PPOR.
The Chimaera is the only ISD demonstrated to have warhead tubes. Its torpedo clusters were NR modifications anyway.
Thirdfain wrote:How are Medium Turbolasers better weapons at short range than HTLs?
At close range, ISD HTLs have very limited fields of fire. They're also large targets, traverse slowly, draw up a lot of power thats needed for shields in such a close-combat situation, and have slow recycle rates.
The point was that HTLs are very difficult to use effectively in such combat conditions. The Mon Cal Cruisers' lighter more varied assortment of weaponry could've given them the edge in that unique combat environment.
Its pointless anyway, as they were never told to attack the Rebel cruisers, but put on a show for Palpatine.
Thirdfain wrote:Ah, so they broke and ran? These are elite Imperial officers, not scolded children.
Thirdfain again dismisses official data because it does not suit him. It is clearly stated acting-Captain Pelleaon of the Chimaera staged a retreat of a large number of vessels from Endor. Most of the Imperials simply fled after the Death Star blew up.
Live with it.
Thirdfain wrote:These are not conscripted soldiers in charge of these Star Destroyers- these are trained officers, who have gone through extremely taxing training and screening processes. In addition, these are members of Death Squadron, Darth Vader's elite fleet. You would have us believe that a fleet, superior in morale (thanks to battle meditation), numvers, firepower, and positioning, lost to a mere dozen capital ships, the commanders of which were being demoralised and paniced by the battle meditation of Palpatine, one of the mightiest force users! Even without the advantage of the Battle Meditation, the Imperial fleet enjoys a 5-1 advantage in numbers and firepower, in your ridiculous scenario.
Thirdfain
AGAIN attempts to discard plainly obvious official accounts.
They were told not to engage the Rebels. I'm trying to rationalize all information and explain some of the advantages Rebel cruisers may have enjoyed over Imperial destroyers.
You just want to manufacture contradictions and throw out official data when it doesn't suit you. Forget it.
Thirdfain wrote:I must have missed the Han Solo capturing an ISD scene last time I watched ROTJ...
Official is admissible information. Solo led a hostile siezure of an ISD after the destruction of the DS II. Live with this.
Thirdfain wrote:The falcon's role in the battle was minimal.
Strawman. The TIE pilots last minute incompetance--directly pointed out by Warlord and Grand Admiral Thrawn in Heir to the Empire, was an example, yet he changes it into me trying to point out the Falcon's vitality to the situation.
Thirdfain wrote:Palpatine's death was more important for the course of the space battle than the destruction of the DS. If the rebel fleet had consisted only of your dozen Rebel ships, the Death Star would have blown, Palpatine's Battle Meditation would have quit, and the 30-or so remaining ISDs would have torn the (already battered) Rebel fleet to shreds.
Doesn't matter. Official + Canon says that the Rebels had about 2 dozen cruisers at most, with a pair of heavy battleships and an assortment of lighter craft.
Thirdfain wrote:Right, but Lando was miscalculating. The Rebel fleet present had enough firepower defeat the Imperials, but Lando's assessment of Imperial strength was messed up by the effects of Palpatine's Battle Meditation on his mind. It is only through a rare side-effect of Battle Meditation that the Rebel fleet didn't run, or fall into total confusion. We saw it in the "Tales of the Jedi." Jedi Battle Meditation crushes the spirits of your enemy with the force, making them see things as hopeless. It will usually garauntee victory, but occaisionally causes the enemy to fight like rats backed into a corner, with desperation born of hopelessness. As the pirate said during the battle in the Empress Teta system: "We can't win, but let's take some of them down to hell with us!"
Palpatine is never said to use Jedi Battle Meditation. Only that he instilled order and cohesion into the Imperial Starfleet as a whole.
Fantasizing again, Thirdfain? Care to show SOME evidence? Or will you just distort or dismiss any that disagrees with your position?
Thirdfain wrote:Actually, the Fleet we see launch from Sullust has only 2 supercapital ships and perhaps a half dozen escorts. Are you telling me that the Rebels attack the Death Star and 50 ISDs with two ships of the wall and a dozen escorts?
There were not 50 ISDs.
There are Rebel cruisers in the background all over. There were between 1 and 2 dozen cruisers, the two Mon Cal command ships, and the assortment of frigates and escorts and monitors.
Thirdfain wrote:The Rebel Alliance faced off against the Empire. Even if they were a purely partisan organization, they need more than a dozen warships. Warships are not that hard to come by- even a trading corporation had thousands of them.
Trade Federation had an industrial base, population, economy, extensive shipyards, factories, and territory across the Outer Rim. Suprise: the Rebellion has little to none of any of this before Endor.
And Thirdfain continues to wish away Official evidence.
Thirdfain wrote:Mon Calamari was openly supporting the Rebellion. They weren't even pretending that the ships and soldiers they had fighting for the Rebellion were expatriates or loners (like the communist "mercenaries" Cambodia sent to assist the Vietnamese versus the US,) rather, they sent their ships and crew in Mon Calamari naval uniforms! (like the US advisors who assisted the South Vietnamese early in the conflict.)
Irrelevent comparison. The Mon Calamari had already been crushed utterly by the Empire, likely for their altercation during the Clone Wars. The government-in-exile sent its officers to help the Rebellion. So what?
Thirdfain wrote:The Rebel Alliance defeats a fleet of 50 ISDs (and one Death Star!) over Endor. At least half of these have elite crew and commanders who are part of Darth Vader's elite Death Squadron. The idea that this was achieved with a dozen supercapital ships and a score or so escorts is ridiculous. On the other had, the idea that the Rebel fleet was split up into a number of squadrons makes sense, and fits in with how the Rebels operate. We never see any long shots of the battle which show significant detail, so we can only extrapolate the number of Rebel vessels involved in that fierce melee.
"Mommy! Make the Official Evidence go away!"
Thirdfain wrote:Note that in the years following the victory at Endor, the Rebel Alliance goes on to defeat Ysanne Isard's government, and then Thrawn's resurgence, while establishing New Republic control through large parts of the Galaxy. The Rebel Alliance, if it consisted of only a few scattered ships and criminals, could never acheive this.
"I don't understand that Rebel Alliance != New Republic."
Thirdfain wrote:In conclusion, the facts simply don't fit in with your romantic idea of the Rebellion as a few tiny ships against the massive force of the Empire. The Rebellion must have controlled considerable resources, both political and military, to both win at Endor, and then come out on top in the post- Endor power struggle.
In conclusion, I can read the EU and watch the movies and observe the blindingly obvious intent. While you spin, dismiss, and distort at will because you cannot understand what is clearly written.
In synopsis:
Thirdfain, in doubt will...
...strawman/nitpick your points and examples into suppposed yawning chasms of doubt.
...distort and dismiss outright blatently clear official information because it will not suit his theories.
....fantasize situations which at best have no factual basis, and at worst are directly contradicted by official information.
