How would you improve an ISD?

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Post by Spartan »

johnpham wrote:
Medical ships- unarmed, essentially a sphere with a wormhole attached to it and a pool of bacta and medical droids. Sits very far away from a battle.

Support ships- 1000 LTLS, cube shaped, wormhole, blocks of raw materials and pilots and other spare crew.
The Empire already has a single vessel that fulfills both roles. The Star Hauler seen in Dark Empire, which has modular sections that can be swaped out for different missions. Check it out here.

http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/M ... uiser.html


Also a quick review of SW Technical Commentaries will show numerous imperial carriers and battleships. :D
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

IG-88E wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote: The domes being sensor domes depends on which EU sources you take on the matter. Some material (notably the Mandel blueprints and to a lesser degree SW.com) have them as sensor domes while much of the novelised EU has them as shield generators.
This bickering is pointless.

This has been beaten to death on the ISD domes thread. ENOUGH!
I will beat to death that which I seek to beat to death where I seek to beat it to death. I've done it for two and a half years and I'll keep doing it that way.
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Post by Guest »

I'll go the same route i went with the Mon Cal Cruiser

Paint the ISD's yellow

Mon call Sensors officer "Admiral Ackbar, we have sonething on the screen that looks like a wedge of cheese"

Ackbar, "hmmm approach slowly, i may be like that alien heap of junk Lando found during the Black Fleet Crisis"

Mon Cal cruiser get in ranger and is promply blown apart

Captain of the ISD Cheese Board "scratch another fish boy"
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Re: How would you improve an ISD?

Post by Crayz9000 »

I'll just mention (since I don't have time to read every post) that from what I've seen suggested, an Allegiance-class Star Destroyer seems to fit the bill for an improved ISD. It has no fighter bays, is slightly larger and carries more weapons, has heavier armor and shields, etc... In short, it's more of a destroyer-killer or a heavy destroyer, compared to the general-purpose ISD.
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Re: How would you improve an ISD?

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Crayz9000 wrote:I'll just mention (since I don't have time to read every post) that from what I've seen suggested, an Allegiance-class Star Destroyer seems to fit the bill for an improved ISD. It has no fighter bays, is slightly larger and carries more weapons, has heavier armor and shields, etc... In short, it's more of a destroyer-killer or a heavy destroyer, compared to the general-purpose ISD.
Yes but that design only improves the ISD if you want to eliminate its Anti-Pirating/System Security role. Basically to get the Allegiance-class you need to remove roles form the ISD.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

I, also, could not read every post, but to keep it simple I would give the HTL turrets a more thoughtfull layout. The way things stand, all that firepower is wasted in a poor disposition. Move four to the dorsal centerline and the other four to the ventral. Two turrets fire dead ahead, one aft, and all eight on either broadside.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote:
Just popped in to tell Muad'Dib that the domes on an ISD tower aren't shield generators. They're sensor domes.


if the domes on top of the bridge tower are sensor domes how come in the Wraith Squadron books destroying them took down the shields of the SSD, Razor's Kiss, Warlord Zsinj was stealing
The domes being sensor domes depends on which EU sources you take on the matter. Some material (notably the Mandel blueprints and to a lesser degree SW.com) have them as sensor domes while much of the novelised EU has them as shield generators.
SW.com IIRC has them as "communication and deflection" domes, and only under the executor entry. Its interesting that according to the EGV&V the Victory-class has a "globe" that serves as an aft targeting array (but its smaller than the larger ones.)

The novels aren't really "specific" - they tend to call them "domes" when a dome is quite distinct from a sphere - obviously whatever they are targeting in the novels (notably the three Wraith Squadron novels after Stackpoles four X-wing novels) they aren't those globes :)

Additionally, they tend to use the terms "sensor domes" and "shield generator/projector" domes as well - some mention sensor towers as well as shield towers... it seems to further complicate the issue. And if that weren't bad enough, some sources indicate the same references of "domes" as generators AND projectors..

The EGW&T and EGV&V visually identify them as generators, but the EGV&V makes the same problem as the novels, calling them "domes". (EGW&T seems to avoid this, and is to my knowledge the *only* direct reference that places them with that function.)

There's the Mandel blueprints then, of course. They call them sensor arrays, but we have Cheeseboy Edam who, in a fit of pique, attempted to discredit them by consulting Mandel himself by email. As if Mandel could actually override LFL (Hey Edam! Try getting a quote from LFL on the status of those blueprints and THEN you might have a case. Until then try to act like an intelligent debator.) So unless LFL actually decides they arne't official, they stand. But, being an essentially official source, this doesn't rule out the shield generator/projector function.

There are a few more mitigating circumstances:

- In ROTJ, loss of one globe (If the shield loss/globe destruction is valid, which it possibly is) only took out bridge shields, not the overall shields.

- the globes are never considered viable targets in combat - even temporarily holing shields to take out the generators rarely if ever seems to be done (The only example of the globes being taken out is from IRon Fist, but that required vessels being planted BENEATH the shield - effectively sabotage. And this assumes we take "domes" to mean "globes".)

- no other starships except the Executor, VSD, ISD, and STar destroyer variants seem to require such ridiculously exposed "generators" - and there are a number of vessels that have similar designs! (Strike cruisers, Interdictors and their variants, and Acclamators) This is not to say that shield equipment is not neccesarily exposed or completely buried under the hull (projectors need to be exposed to generate fields, after all.. and even some ships DO mount the generators partially exposed) - but again none are nearly quite as exposed as those so called "globes" - so if they ARE that exposed, there must be other circumstances dictating it.

- according to Tyrants test, shield radii for at least particle shields (And given typical deployments, probably ray shielding as well) is only a few hundred meters. Scarely enough to encompass an ISD with a couple generators, much less a larger vessel like an executor. This automatically infers multiple generators. If you consider that many vessels probably also "project" some distance away in the EU (or are able to) multiple generators seem more obvious.


The end result of all this seems to be that the "globes" house several different bits of equipment and serve several functions: They have shield gear, yes, but oonly in part of the "globe" - one half being the shields would explain the so called "dome" reference.) the rest seems to be communications, sensors, or both. As to why this design, one might consider this:

According to HTTE and AOTCICS as well as Dark Empire, shielding interferes with subspace communications and hyperwave communications. Since we know they have subspace and tachyon sensors (tachyonic sensors I think are the equivalent of hyperwave for sensors - they're used also as long range sensors in most REbel fighters and even some Imperial fighters) its probable that shields also interefere with sensors.

Therefore, mounting dedicated generators to protect the bridge/command tower would make sense - it can allow them to be selectively lowered in that area/section to use sensors and comm, without exposing the whole of the ship. This also means at the very worst, those shields only protect a specific facing/area (the bridge, topside area). Even then, loss of those shields are not considered fatal (IE they aren't a weak point, even when breaching the shields in a specific area is possible, as we know can be done) to the combat performance of the ship, suggesting other shield segments exist (And can probably be reconfigured to compensate, although this might very well interfere with sensor/communications)

Thats at least my view on the situation.
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Post by Spartan »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Yes but that design only improves the ISD if you want to eliminate its Anti-Pirating/System Security role. Basically to get the Allegiance-class you need to remove roles form the ISD.
That no great loss, smaller dedicated ships are a fare better answer to performing the Anti-Pirating/System Security role anyway and are far more numerous. A dedicated platform is always superior to a multi-role vessel, as far fewer compromises need to be made. The Enforcer Star Frigates, strike cruisers and Carracks already exist and are far more suited to the role. Seriously it’s a waste of time and materials to assign a battlewagon to hunt down pirates armed with nothing more than small, armed freighters.

I really like your solution to the ISD redesign, it is very well though out. There is a place for multi-role vessels in a fleet, and what you describe is what I would go with. In most cases however, a true battleship, carrier, or troop transport would be superior. Assuming those assets are available of course, on the outer Rim your ISD design would be the best compromise.
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Post by AL »

paint the ISD pink with a Rebublic Emblem and strip down its weapons and call it an RSD and let the IMP fleet blow the shit out of it. They need no improvements cause the New Republic sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Spartan wrote:CmdrWilkens wrote:
Yes but that design only improves the ISD if you want to eliminate its Anti-Pirating/System Security role. Basically to get the Allegiance-class you need to remove roles form the ISD.
That no great loss, smaller dedicated ships are a fare better answer to performing the Anti-Pirating/System Security role anyway and are far more numerous. A dedicated platform is always superior to a multi-role vessel, as far fewer compromises need to be made. The Enforcer Star Frigates, strike cruisers and Carracks already exist and are far more suited to the role. Seriously it’s a waste of time and materials to assign a battlewagon to hunt down pirates armed with nothing more than small, armed freighters.

I really like your solution to the ISD redesign, it is very well though out. There is a place for multi-role vessels in a fleet, and what you describe is what I would go with. In most cases however, a true battleship, carrier, or troop transport would be superior. Assuming those assets are available of course, on the outer Rim your ISD design would be the best compromise.
In the end I think it comes down to how much you have to work with and how much space you have to cover. A single ISD can cover a LOT of space with hyeprdrive however they were never numerous(comapred to the size of the galaxy). This means that either the funds or the materials weren't there to build huge fleets of ships in the same size class. I think the reason the ISD is used and designed the way it is rests with the Emepror's philosophy: He wanted a big bad mutha that could go anywhere and do anything, that's quite a rebellion stopper on most worlds. Just the thought that an ISD might appear with all tis many ways of killing or hurting you (if you're a mid rim colony world) would probably stop rebellions in their tracks because the ISD is fearsome because of its versatility. its weakness is only really exposed in direct combat and there were few enough itnerstellar vessels of its proportions outside of the Imeprial Navy at that point so they could be expected to outgun almsot any opponent anyway.

Even in direct combat the ISD-II has a wonderful design that seems tailored to killing off many frigate sized vessels (in the canon they are always referred to as Cruisers so I categorize them as such). With eight turrets an ISD-II can place no less than 36 heavy guns into action in any sector above the midline.
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Post by Spartan »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
In the end I think it comes down to how much you have to work with and how much space you have to cover. A single ISD can cover a LOT of space with hyperdrive however they were never numerous (compared to the size of the galaxy). This means that either the funds or the materials weren't there to build huge fleets of ships in the same size class. I think the reason the ISD is used and designed the way it is rests with the Emperor’s philosophy: He wanted a big bad mutha that could go anywhere and do anything, that's quite a rebellion stopper on most worlds. Just the thought that an ISD might appear with all tis many ways of killing or hurting you (if you're a mid rim colony world) would probably stop rebellions in their tracks because the ISD is fearsome because of its versatility. its weakness is only really exposed in direct combat and there were few enough itnerstellar vessels of its proportions outside of the Imperial Navy at that point so they could be expected to outgun almsot any opponent anyway.

Even in direct combat the ISD-II has a wonderful design that seems tailored to killing off many frigate sized vessels (in the canon they are always referred to as Cruisers so I categorize them as such). With eight turrets an ISD-II can place no less than 36 heavy guns into action in any sector above the midline.
I concur, economics was undoubtly a major factor in the fleets size. I don't discount ISD's as being highly effective warships, but even with hyperdrive there are limits to what so few ships can accomplish. My take is that politics led to there design more than actual requirements. Honestly taking into account the opposing forces, there was no need to produce vessels more powerful than an ISD.
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Post by FettKyle »

Switch 4 HTLs to the bottom.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

FettKyle wrote:Switch 4 HTLs to the bottom.
Why would that help?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Are you stupid? Currently no HTLs cover the ventral surface.
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Post by FettKyle »

Or I would thicken it up and add 8 HTLs on the bottom
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Are you stupid? Currently no HTLs cover the ventral surface.
YEs and? Its got MTLs and if there's a major combatant there you can roll and bring all 64 guns to bear without having to sacrifice other systems. Every HTL you add is gonna draw power away from soem other system whether it be other guns, the shields, or the engines so take your pick. I perosnally think its just fine with the guns it has but I'd redistribute them slightly (I wouldn't add any).
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Are you stupid? Currently no HTLs cover the ventral surface.
Actually you are. You are essentially trying to remove its ability to fire on a single target by allowing it to fire on targets in the exact place where an ISD should try to remove large ships first (ventral surfaces). Think about it. You are essentially trying to get the ship to be able to fight against ships attacking its hangar bay by continuously exposing its hangar to the threat. A much better method would be to simply add additional thrusters to increase the roll rate of the ship, so as to BOTH remove the vulnerable hangar from the threat, AND to bring the ship's heavy dorsal guns to bear on the attacking ship. Your plan is poorly conceived.

Adding turrets is a much better solution, but would likely draw too much power to be feasable, and would greatly increase the expense of the ship without significantly improving its actual combat performance.
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Post by Moonshadow »

how about installing Neon Light Tubes all along the sides of the ship. Also give it a Bowling Ball Paint Job and hang some fuzzy dice in the Bridge Window. Then add a big gold chrome Imperial Symbol "Hood Ornament" to the top of the bow. 8) :P :lol:
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Moonshadow wrote:how about installing Neon Light Tubes all along the sides of the ship. Also give it a Bowling Ball Paint Job and hang some fuzzy dice in the Bridge Window. Then add a big gold chrome Imperial Symbol "Hood Ornament" to the top of the bow. 8) :P :lol:
This was about a 70 post thread in ASVS abotu how to trick out an ISD (though we never quite settled where you would stick the 20s ).
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I think the blast doors over the dorsal hangar are the preferable solution to the problem of the hangar weakness.

And the Kuat Drive Yards engineers agree. The Allegiance-class has blast doors to cover the slimmer hangars.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think the blast doors over the dorsal hangar are the preferable solution to the problem of the hangar weakness.

And the Kuat Drive Yards engineers agree. The Allegiance-class has blast doors to cover the slimmer hangars.
Any time you have a hinged structure like that you introduce a couple weaknesses that really don't sole the fundamental problems:

1) Its STILL gonna be weaker than the main hull.
2) It is going to limit your speed of response if you need to scramble your fighters
3) its another system that you have to power and worry about breaking.

Furthermore even though you've improved the defenses its still not a god idea to try and fight on that side. I sitll think my solution for the hangers is a FAR better idea.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Change the shape of the whole damn ship to not look like a door stop or a hunk-a-fuckin-cheese. I'd rather a Galaxy class style look to a floating dairy product.

In other words, you just want something that screams "I AM GAY!"
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Last time I checked, this was an "In My OPINION" thread. If Someone gave me an ISD to do with what I will, this is what I'd do.
So? You're still saying a bunch of incorrect things, we correct you wheter you like it or not, if you expected everyone to just get along with what you said you should have made your own forums and IP blocked everyone but you.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

About the Hangar, I'd simply make 4 huge armored slabs or doors that would close up the Hangar bay in an armored shell.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Icehawk wrote: 1) Replace the standard HTL's with composite beam turret (deathstar style beam) HTL's. Same power as the normal HTLs, but now they have greater pinpoint acccuracy

Buut:
1) They are beams, lower wattage, lower efficency against shields
2) Probably more complex
3) Accuracy improvement isn't guaranteed
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