Worst EU Travesty?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-24 07:41am

Stormbringer wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Pelleaon's a weakling, docile commander who prefers to obey orders. He's only marginally competant, and now positively geriatric.
I take it he went south in the NJO? Because from what I've seen he's not docile or a weakling. He took orders because he wasn't a rebel. That's called loyalty and it's hardly a bad thing. As for being a weakling, he would have been eaten alive by the Moffs or Warlords had he truly been a weakling.

He's just aware that he's no brilliant commander and so doesn't try to be. Pelleaon never demonstrated any real incompetence that I'm aware of, but never a stroke of genuis either. He always struck me as simply being the Bush to Thrawn's Hornblower; solid, reliable, and loyal.

He didn't go south in the NJO that I'm aware of. (Haven't read all of it.) He's saved the Republic's ass at least once. Of course, the Republic didn't help him at that, determined as it was to self-destruct...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-24 07:45am

Robert Treder wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:[Pellaeon] took orders because he wasn't a rebel. That's called loyalty and it's hardly a bad thing.
He isn't even very good at following orders. He may be loyal to Thrawn, but he sure isn't loyal to His Imperial Majesty. Pellaeon deserted Palpatine's Empire when he issued an illegal retreat order at Endor.

Pellaeon saved the Imperial Fleet at Endor. The Rebels were doing a grand mopping up. The Emperor was dead, the Death Star was destroyed, and all his men were demoralized. Staying would have been suicidal. The man's just had the worst run of bad luck ever as a commander, but he never did anything blatantly stupid that I'm aware of.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-01-24 12:54pm

Robert Treder wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:[Pellaeon] took orders because he wasn't a rebel. That's called loyalty and it's hardly a bad thing.
He isn't even very good at following orders. He may be loyal to Thrawn, but he sure isn't loyal to His Imperial Majesty. Pellaeon deserted Palpatine's Empire when he issued an illegal retreat order at Endor.

Depends on who was there, who could have given him any orders.

And the later warlord Harsk abandoned the battle as soon as the DS exploded, was taken back with open arms from the DE-Palpatine and was a cheesy commander after that again. Such were the kind of "loyal and competent" commanders the emperor preferred.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-01-24 07:22pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Pellaeon saved the Imperial Fleet at Endor. The Rebels were doing a grand mopping up. The Emperor was dead, the Death Star was destroyed, and all his men were demoralized. Staying would have been suicidal. The man's just had the worst run of bad luck ever as a commander, but he never did anything blatantly stupid that I'm aware of.

Bullshit. With the destruction of HIMS Executor and the death of HADM Firmus Piett, GADM Osvald Teshik took command of the Imperial forces at Endor, his flag flying from the Imperial-class destroyer Eleemosynary. According to the DE sourcebook, the battle lasted four hours after the destruction of DSII, with not a single Imperial surrender.
CAPT Gilad Pellaeon panicked early, though, and he issued an illegal retreat order after his immediate superior was KIA. The fact that other Imperial commanders followed this illegal order does not exonerate it.

CAPT Pellaeon was not in a position to give orders to any other ships, let alone the entire Imperial force. There was a Grand Admiral present and in action, let alone the numerous other superior officers that were likely there given the Sector Group-sized force (likely several Line Captains and perhaps even some other flag officers).
IF CAPT Pellaeon had not deserted and incited others to follow, the battle needn't necessarily have progressed as it did. That is not to say that they definitely could have defeated FADM Ackbar's forces, but Pellaeon certainly didn't help. At the very least, it would have been honourable to die fighting those who had killed his Emperor.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-24 08:45pm

You forget that Palpatine was using the Force to incite the troops to battle and high morale. When that was yanked out from under them, it was like an adrenaline letdown; they just didn't have the will to fight on their own, since Palpatine had not allowed them to have it.

And if a Grand Admiral was present at Endor, why in the hell wasn't he in command in the first place?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-01-24 09:29pm

Rogue 9 wrote:You forget that Palpatine was using the Force to incite the troops to battle and high morale. When that was yanked out from under them, it was like an adrenaline letdown; they just didn't have the will to fight on their own, since Palpatine had not allowed them to have it.

What the hell does that matter? Pellaeon issued an illegal order, whether his men had high morale or not.

And if a Grand Admiral was present at Endor, why in the hell wasn't he in command in the first place?

Because Vader was in charge of the Naval forces at Endor, and his admiral is Piett. Pretty much the only reason Piett wasn't a Grand Admiral was so that he could remain attached to Vader's forces.
Grand Admiral Teshik wasn't there as part of Vader's force, he was there visiting the Emperor along with at least one other Grand Admiral. He joined the fray because the Executor fell, and he recognized, unlike Pellaeon, that it was his duty to fight.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-24 10:24pm

Robert Treder wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:[Pellaeon] took orders because he wasn't a rebel. That's called loyalty and it's hardly a bad thing.
He isn't even very good at following orders. He may be loyal to Thrawn, but he sure isn't loyal to His Imperial Majesty. Pellaeon deserted Palpatine's Empire when he issued an illegal retreat order at Endor.

Do you have any proof that Pallaeon LEFT the empire when he left Endor? All indications are that Pallaeon left Endor because he knew it was doomed and didn't want to sacrafice his ship needlessly. For his ship to remain in even remotely capable fighting condition he would have had to remain within the Imperial proper under its command. We already know that Joak Dryso also left Endor with the ISD Virulence and yet was still part of the Empire up untill he joined Issard in the Theffyra debacle.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2004-01-24 11:40pm

Ysanne Isard not fucking staying dead.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-01-25 12:01am

Alyeska wrote:Do you have any proof that Pallaeon LEFT the empire when he left Endor? All indications are that Pallaeon left Endor because he knew it was doomed and didn't want to sacrafice his ship needlessly. For his ship to remain in even remotely capable fighting condition he would have had to remain within the Imperial proper under its command. We already know that Joak Dryso also left Endor with the ISD Virulence and yet was still part of the Empire up untill he joined Issard in the Theffyra debacle.

Let me ask you. What do you call it when a fight starts to go bad and some subordinate units suddenly just pack up and start running off to the rear without permission, worsening the situation even more?

I'm surprised he wasn't court-martialed. Even if it ultimately was the correct decision, it is controversial enough to at least merit a hearing. Maybe it just got lost in post-Endor chaos.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-25 12:06am

Endor hadn't just started to go badly, it had turned into a disaster. The Emperor was dead, the Death Star (their objective to protect) was destroyed, the flagship was destroyed, Pellaeon's commanding officer was dead, the whole thing was in shambles. He took the situation into account, saw that his orders were inviable, said "To hell with the orders," (remind you of anyone?) and made the correct decision.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-01-25 12:26am

Rogue 9 wrote:Endor hadn't just started to go badly, it had turned into a disaster. The Emperor was dead, the Death Star (their objective to protect) was destroyed, the flagship was destroyed, Pellaeon's commanding officer was dead, the whole thing was in shambles. He took the situation into account, saw that his orders were inviable, said "To hell with the orders," (remind you of anyone?) and made the correct decision.

You don't have to remind me how bad Endor was going. Nevertheless, the man defied orders and fled. Whether he's correct or not, his action was illegal and mandates at least an investigation into his actions.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-25 12:54am

It was not CAPT Pelleaon's call, it is that simple.

It was GADM Teshik's. He was a military genius, so I am inclined to believe him. He believed the Imperial fleet had a fighting chance, and Pelleaon's call for unorganized desperate retreat broke ranks and likely precipitated further casualties and the Rebel Alliance siezure of HIMS Adjudicator and HIMS Accuser.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-25 01:19am

I had a problem with how stupid Daala was when she was supposed to be a brilliant strategist and she loses some VSDs and an SSD against an inferior force.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-25 01:57am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Do you have any proof that Pallaeon LEFT the empire when he left Endor? All indications are that Pallaeon left Endor because he knew it was doomed and didn't want to sacrafice his ship needlessly. For his ship to remain in even remotely capable fighting condition he would have had to remain within the Imperial proper under its command. We already know that Joak Dryso also left Endor with the ISD Virulence and yet was still part of the Empire up untill he joined Issard in the Theffyra debacle.
Let me ask you. What do you call it when a fight starts to go bad and some subordinate units suddenly just pack up and start running off to the rear without permission, worsening the situation even more?

I'm surprised he wasn't court-martialed. Even if it ultimately was the correct decision, it is controversial enough to at least merit a hearing. Maybe it just got lost in post-Endor chaos.

It certainly wasn't treason nor was it desertion. If what Pallaeon did was either he would have been sumarily executed afterwards. Instead the entire incident was written off as a disaster thanks to the Emporers arrogance. What happened was largely battlefield confussion which again can be blamed on the Emporer. Military training to conserve personel and equipment from needless destruction likely convinced several captains to leave.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-25 02:02am

CAPT Drysso among them. There were others besides Pellaeon.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-25 02:08am

Alyeska wrote:It certainly wasn't treason nor was it desertion. If what Pallaeon did was either he would have been sumarily executed afterwards. Instead the entire incident was written off as a disaster thanks to the Emporers arrogance. What happened was largely battlefield confussion which again can be blamed on the Emporer. Military training to conserve personel and equipment from needless destruction likely convinced several captains to leave.

Pelleaon was insubordinate, not treasonous or a deserter.

He also simply did not have the authority to issue fleet commands, since he was not a Line Captain, but a XO Captain acting-CO in lieu of the late Captain and CO of the Chimaera.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-25 02:12am

That sounds about right. Given the extinuating circumstances thats likely why he never got punished.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-25 02:31am

Alyeska wrote:That sounds about right. Given the extinuating circumstances thats likely why he never got punished.

Or because some moron held him up as an exemplary officer for helping brave Imperials escape evil Rebel traps, and by then the Empire had worse things to worry about (like I dunno, military coup'de'etat).

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-01-25 05:06am

Worst piece of EU? Two words Empires End Fuck I hate that comic.

Oh the Eclipse 2 just so fucking happens to exit hyperspace directly infront of the Galaxy Gun, oh and guess what? The crash not only causes the destruction of the Eclipse 2 and the Galaxy Gun, oh no, but it causes the Galaxy Gun to spaz fire a missile that just oh so fuckingly happens to hit the main planet of the Empire and destroy it along with billions of Imperial citizens, soldiers and hundreds if not thousands of vessels. Oh yes and the Emperor gets trapped inside that floating fuckhead cyborg Brandt or whatever the fuck his name was.

*Pardon me while I vomit all over my keyboard*

Feh, Empires End, stupidest plot, sloppyest storytelling, and the biggest New Republic wankfest in the history of Star Wars all wrapped up in a nice little package for you!

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-25 05:18am

Who wrote that one, Icehawk?

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-01-25 05:23am

Stofsk wrote:Who wrote that one, Icehawk?

Some moron named "Tom Veitch"

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-01-25 06:33am

Single kilometre laser ranges in Rogue Squadron. I also most bloody beleived it before coming here. Luckly Rebel Dream corrects this have Rogue squardron engage a vong frigate at 20 kilometres.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-01-25 07:21am

Icehawk wrote:Worst piece of EU? Two words Empires End Fuck I hate that comic.

Oh the Eclipse 2 just so fucking happens to exit hyperspace directly infront of the Galaxy Gun, oh and guess what? The crash not only causes the destruction of the Eclipse 2 and the Galaxy Gun, oh no, but it causes the Galaxy Gun to spaz fire a missile that just oh so fuckingly happens to hit the main planet of the Empire and destroy it along with billions of Imperial citizens, soldiers and hundreds if not thousands of vessels. Oh yes and the Emperor gets trapped inside that floating fuckhead cyborg Brandt or whatever the fuck his name was.

*Pardon me while I vomit all over my keyboard*

Feh, Empires End, stupidest plot, sloppyest storytelling, and the biggest New Republic wankfest in the history of Star Wars all wrapped up in a nice little package for you!

If it helps any, supposedly they ran out of budget, so they had to end it fast in two comics. If they had more time the Empire might have lost in a more realistic fashion

The Aliens · Post by **The Aliens** » 2004-01-25 12:56pm

Absolutely annoying how Stackpole has Rogue Squadron blow up SSDs with a few hundred torpedoes- torpedoes seem to be the holy fucking grail for everything- twelve X-Wings brought down the VSD at the Alderaan Graveyard.

Also, Corran Horn.

Also, Ysanne Isard being resurrected.

Also, I, Jedi.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-25 01:06pm

Icehawk wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Who wrote that one, Icehawk?
Some moron named "Tom Veitch"

Who was at the time corrobrating with KJA on the story so that the JAT would mesh.

Smartest thing Zahn ever did was tell that hack to go fuck himself. Pity no one else did.