Kitsune wrote:I don't see what the Death Star really gives you if a Stardestroyer can allready scorch a planet.
Terror. A single weapons platform that can do the kind of stuff a Death Star can is a far better symbol than a fleet.
Obliterate a whole planet within a few seconds, and you're going to have a lot of people wondering if rebelling is worth it.
Yes, a fleet of ISD's could have been built, but it would have not have achieved the same result - fear.
Kitsune wrote: the idea of a Death Star being built in six months is silly.
Well it was
Kitsune wrote:This argument is support by the fact that in the Wraith Squadron novels, it appears that it took years to build a single super star destroyer.
Given that in SoTE...they gave the movement of material to the DS2 site to ONE shipping company says a lot about the sheer scope of economics in the SW universe.
The DS2 being larger...and more powerful yet can be bulit nearly in 6 monthes in secret without any knowledge aside from what the Emperor doled out for the sole purpose of capturing and drawing Skywalker to the dark side, is not a sign of him bankrupting anything.
The problem is that if we go with the number of Star Destroyers as about 25,000 and this taking decades to build, the idea of a Death Star being built in six months is silly. This argument is support by the fact that in the Wraith Squadron novels, it appears that it took years to build a single super star destroyer.
The idea that one company might have supllied all the material is possible by the concept that they really subcontracted hundreds to thousands of other companies but this is not mentioned.
If we can't use time differences to estimate how long they took to build the DS II, then we can't make assumptions that more than one shipping company was used just because others were not mentioned.
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Sharp-kun wrote:Terror. A single weapons platform that can do the kind of stuff a Death Star can is a far better symbol than a fleet.
Obliterate a whole planet within a few seconds, and you're going to have a lot of people wondering if rebelling is worth it.
Distant terror is always less effective that terror at your next door neighbors. Besides, rebell are small "Bandits" in effect. Having a super planet destroyer is less effective than scouts and being able to cover systems.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Sharp-kun wrote:Terror. A single weapons platform that can do the kind of stuff a Death Star can is a far better symbol than a fleet.
Obliterate a whole planet within a few seconds, and you're going to have a lot of people wondering if rebelling is worth it.
Distant terror is always less effective that terror at your next door neighbors. Besides, rebell are small "Bandits" in effect. Having a super planet destroyer is less effective than scouts and being able to cover systems.
Yet his goal was never to terroize the Rebels.
Not he never sent much forces against them, and really only paid them heed when they acquired person with high Force potential.
His goal was to show a plantentary shiled won't save you from his wrath.
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Kitsune wrote:
Distant terror is always less effective that terror at your next door neighbors. Besides, rebell are small "Bandits" in effect. Having a super planet destroyer is less effective than scouts and being able to cover systems.
Distant terror that can be on you're doorstep in a day or 2. Try a planetary evacuation in that time.
Plus, you miss that the Death Star wasn't intended to be used on the rebels, that was what the fleet was for (and was perfectly adequate for).
It was intended to be something that planetary governors would always think about when they thought of opposing the empire, a task it would have been very effective at.
A BDZ you can survive, by going to a very deep shelter. The Death Star could not be defended against. It was the ultimate weapon, and it was made sure that people knew that.
You can survive a Continent being turned into lava to mantle, what have you been smoking?
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Gunshy wrote:Wasn't the Death Star created in order to swiftly destroy a shielded planet? The only other alternatives would be iffy technology such as torpedo spheres, or concentrated orbital bombardment that might take weeks before a shield would crack.
Hmm, if we go with even just 200,000 stardestroyers, imagine the concentration of say 10,000 stardestroyers firing on a single point. Could a planetary shield survive that?
Indefinitely. Total output from 10000 ISDs is going to be at absolute most 1E30. This is 8 orders of magnitude less than the DS1 Superlaser's minimum output, which the Alderaan shield absorbed at a single point for a signifigant fraction of a second. This also presumes that the ISDs can put all of their reactor output to offense, and bring it all to bear in a single direction, although it does leave out any missile weapons that may be available(at a minimum, multiple loadouts for 120000 TIE bombers). Minimum figure to break through Alderaan's shield in any reasonable amount of time is probably upwards of a billion, maybe much higher, as the ISD is not optimised for the task.
The DS1 hypermatter reactor outperforms an ISD by at least 8 orders of magnitude. It also has capacitors on board capable of storing anywhere from 25000 times that energy on up. This is merely the minimum for the Superlaser, and does not take into account secondary weapons, shields, and the many tasks commonly lumped in under life support. The amount of fuel used to power one shot by the DS would fuel the 25000 ISD figure EU writers are so attached to for at least three years.
How could the empire gain control of the entire galaxy when such powerful shields were common?
Leader of a random planet:
"Ok folks our shield can protect us against theit entire fleet and we can knock their ships out with Ion-cannons and HTL. I suggest we surrender."
Was the SW galaxy full of pacifists before the repuplic changed into empire?
How could the empire gain control of the entire galaxy when such powerful shields were common?
Leader of a random planet:
"Ok folks our shield can protect us against theit entire fleet and we can knock their ships out with Ion-cannons and HTL. I suggest we surrender."
Was the SW galaxy full of pacifists before the repuplic changed into empire?
Because those shields aren't going to do a great deal about a 10-20km rock punched up to relatavistic speeds. Or if they are, then more rocks can be thrown. Remember that shields are by definition going to have more problems with kinetic impacts.
There is also the fact that most important worlds are not going to be fully self-sufficient, so a blockade would eventually conquer resistance, as the millions strong mob of starving citizens storm the shield generators. Simply broadcasting footage of the super transports filled with food having to wait just outside weapons range of the planet, because of their leaders treason should hurry that process along nicely.
In addition, the Emperor arranged thing so that it looked like he was bringing peace and order to the galaxy, which he was, even if he helped cause the unrest in the first place. As the man who saved the Republic, he was already basically in control of the vast majority of the galaxy.
I heard the republic controlled about 100.000 system and the empire millions.
The empire existed for 25-30 years afaik
You don't get ~100new systems per day with only 25.000 capital ships unless you face no real resistance.
Why do we only talk about Star Destroyers and the SSDs? They are only the battleships of the fleet. There exists countless millions of other ships...carracks, lancers, dreadnaughts, cruisers, picket ships, carriers, etc.
I think a good real life example of the DS is maybe the Bismark.
Fire Fly wrote:Why do we only talk about Star Destroyers and the SSDs? They are only the battleships of the fleet. There exists countless millions of other ships...carracks, lancers, dreadnaughts, cruisers, picket ships, carriers, etc.
I think a good real life example of the DS is maybe the Bismark.
But that's just me.
No, sorry, the Bismark was just another battleship and was not a super ship. Some of Hitlers such as the lter version of "H" might have compared to the Sovereign but even its does not really come up to a Death Star.
The problem is that neither the novels or the movies don't seem to support countless millions of other ships. There are also other problems. Dreadnought, for example are a West End Games creation and are featured by T. Zahn and are are suppose to be creations of the Republic (and with the Victory class as well if I remember) which by Episodes I and II, they have no real military.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Fire Fly wrote:Why do we only talk about Star Destroyers and the SSDs? They are only the battleships of the fleet. There exists countless millions of other ships...carracks, lancers, dreadnaughts, cruisers, picket ships, carriers, etc.
I think a good real life example of the DS is maybe the Bismark.
But that's just me.
No, sorry, the Bismark was just another battleship and was not a super ship. Some of Hitlers such as the lter version of "H" might have compared to the Sovereign but even its does not really come up to a Death Star.
The problem is that neither the novels or the movies don't seem to support countless millions of other ships. There are also other problems. Dreadnought, for example are a West End Games creation and are featured by T. Zahn and are are suppose to be creations of the Republic (and with the Victory class as well if I remember) which by Episodes I and II, they have no real military.
They had no large ground force, but did they have a navy? It would seem necessary just to deal with piracy.
Rogue 9 wrote:They had no large ground force, but did they have a navy? It would seem necessary just to deal with piracy.
I would agree that they should but there seems to be no support for this from episode I or II. For example, where then clonetroopers were used in the attack, why were they not backed up by starships.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Rogue 9 wrote:They had no large ground force, but did they have a navy? It would seem necessary just to deal with piracy.
I would agree that they should but there seems to be no support for this from episode I or II. For example, where then clonetroopers were used in the attack, why were they not backed up by starships.
Because Yoda ran to get the clonetroopers from Komino and didn't have time to call the Republic about it? Both planets were on the Outer Rim, correct? Yoda and the clones with their Acclamators were likely the closest fleet elements and they were in a pretty big hurry.
The old Republic has no military at the galactic level.
The Galactic Republic has a paramilitary force, the Republican Guard, which is part of the Judicial Department, and of course, the Jedi.
This is more analogous to the BATF and FBI and DEA than the military.
Regions and ssectors and member governments operate their own military forces. Rogue Planet depicted the Outland Defense Force, over some of the Outer Rim Territories. The Hapan Consortium maintains respectable forces in its isolationist state. Corellia, Alderaan, Kuat, Nemodia, and other worlds maintained respectable military forces at the sectorial level.
The military might of the old Republic was not small, even canonically: the Trade Federation deployed tens of thousands of carriers to the blockade of a small sector's capital world as a political ploy. Rather; it is decentralized and regional, composed of vessels with short-range hyperdrives. The majority of the military might is controlled by the corporate consortiums and rich and powerful individual sectors.
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You also of course have the fact that millions of ISD's would require many more times the manpower to run than a single Death Star (1 or 2).
Remember, according to official sources that the DS1 had a "minimum crew" of 1 million (humans only? or is that including droids?).
But yeah, otherwise it would seem that it would make more sense just to build a gigantic fleet like that. For utterly destroying planets it would seem the DS would be a more efficient purpose built weapon, but still...
Kurgan wrote:You also of course have the fact that millions of ISD's would require many more times the manpower to run than a single Death Star (1 or 2).
Remember, according to official sources that the DS1 had a "minimum crew" of 1 million (humans only? or is that including droids?).
But yeah, otherwise it would seem that it would make more sense just to build a gigantic fleet like that. For utterly destroying planets it would seem the DS would be a more efficient purpose built weapon, but still...
He's a super villian, go figure.
Official sources also misrepresent the size and available guns on the DS, so their crew figures are a little suspect. There's also the fact that a minimally crewed warship is traditionally meat for a similar ship with a full crew, so trying to economise like that is only likely to bite you in the ass in the end.
