Was the Rebel Alliance right?

[consequences]

I'm not saying mutiny because of dislike, I'm saying mutiny against 'those bitches who usurped the Chain of Command, what do they think they're doing, I've been training for fifteen years, and this uppity bint thinks she can command a fleet after losing Coruscant?'. Isaard's command was equivalent to the Director of the CIA taking command of a carrier battlegroup, after seizing control of and then losing D.C. to an amphibious assault by the Canadian Army.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Ok, so then are there any examples of Imperials mutinying because their superiors fucked up majorly? Such as when the two ISDs collided with each other in TESB?

[consequences]

Ok, so then are there any examples of Imperials mutinying because their superiors fucked up majorly? Such as when the two ISDs collided with each other in TESB?

This isn't just fucking up majorly, this is giving orders that you have no official authority to give, and then fucking that up.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Damn it. Ok, so then are there any examples of that?

[consequences]

Pellaeon assisting in killing the Warlords with Daala, actually.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

The warlords did not give orders they officially had no authority to give, because there was no one else superior to them after Palpatine's death. There was no clear heir to the throne, so they were left to themselves to run the Empire. I agree that they did fuck up by putting the Empire into civil war, but the fact of the matter is they were technically within their authorities to do so. There was no Emperor to order them around anymore. I remember they gave themselves stupid titles because they were trying to make themselves seem like they were superior to the others, but the fact of the matter was that no one had authority over the other.

But then again, that's a stupid nitpick, I guess you made your point. But I am still of the opinion that there was sexism in the Empire simply because there are no females at all in the movies serving in the Empire.

[Lord of the Farce]

But then again, that's a stupid nitpick, I guess you made your point. But I am still of the opinion that there was sexism in the Empire simply because there are no females at all in the movies serving in the Empire.

And how often have we seen support role positions onboard Imperial ships or Imperial command installations, the kind of positions where we see at most only a couple of females in the RA equivalent?

[Stofsk]

But then again, that's a stupid nitpick, I guess you made your point. But I am still of the opinion that there was sexism in the Empire simply because there are no females at all in the movies serving in the Empire.

And how often have we seen support role positions onboard Imperial ships or Imperial command installations, the kind of positions where we see at most only a couple of females in the RA equivalent?

Plenty of times. Death Star gunners (yes, they wore helmets and there could have been a woman under there, but we will never know, will we?), Death Star Hangar control (where they didn't wear helmets), various security personnel onboard the Death Star (like the guys at the prison cell block), numerous Imperials walking around the Death Star (not ONE woman out of dozens), the ISD crew pits (not ONE woman, no-one was wearing masks or helmets either), the bunker on Endor (all the officers were men, AT-ST pilots were men), the meeting of Moffs and Generals and Admirals on the Death Star (not ONE woman - these guys don't even secretaries! ) etc.

The only ones with any doubt on them are: Stormtroopers, TIE pilots, and Death Star gunners. A woman might be in any one of the above (except probably the Stormtrooper), however what about the other Imperials? Y'know, the ones who don't walk around with masks?

[Lord of the Farce]

Plenty of times. Death Star gunners (yes, they wore helmets and there could have been a woman under there, but we will never know, will we?),

Then why are you placing them in this list?

Death Star Hangar control (where they didn't wear helmets), various security personnel onboard the Death Star (like the guys at the prison cell block),

How many females did you see in the Yavin and Hoth hangars?

numerous Imperials walking around the Death Star (not ONE woman out of dozens),

In a 160km battlestation with over a million onboard. Ever heard of disproportional sample sizes?

the ISD crew pits (not ONE woman, no-one was wearing masks or helmets either)

How often have we seen the entire pits clearly, rather than just the top of their heads or a close up to a couple of them?

the bunker on Endor (all the officers were men, AT-ST pilots were men)

A front-line installation where they know is going to come under attack. And funny, I thought we were talking about supporting roles, not front-line combat units.

the meeting of Moffs and Generals and Admirals on the Death Star (not ONE woman - these guys don't even secretaries! ) etc.

A meeting of a dozen military leaders. Hardly the equivalent of the support role position of the RA females we were talking about.

The only ones with any doubt on them are: Stormtroopers, TIE pilots, and Death Star gunners. A woman might be in any one of the above (except probably the Stormtrooper), however what about the other Imperials? Y'know, the ones who don't walk around with masks?

[/i]

[Admiral Drason]

Didnt the rebellion sell spice off to fund their war, while killing smugglers for the spice?

[Stofsk]

Plenty of times. Death Star gunners (yes, they wore helmets and there could have been a woman under there, but we will never know, will we?),

Then why are you placing them in this list?

Simple because we don't know. So it was worth mentioning.

Death Star Hangar control (where they didn't wear helmets), various security personnel onboard the Death Star (like the guys at the prison cell block),

How many females did you see in the Yavin and Hoth hangars?

Who the hell cares? We were talking about examples from the IMPERIAL side. I already know there are females serving in the Rebellion. Aliens, too.

The point is that's a SUPPORT role, and they don't have helmets or whatever, and we don't see any women. We DO see women in the Hoth base acting as support roles (that anonymous woman, and Leia), and the ANH novelisation mentions women being a part of the combined RA forces present at the ceremony.

numerous Imperials walking around the Death Star (not ONE woman out of dozens),

In a 160km battlestation with over a million onboard. Ever heard of disproportional sample sizes?

So out of millions of people onboard they couldn't show one woman?

the ISD crew pits (not ONE woman, no-one was wearing masks or helmets either)

How often have we seen the entire pits clearly, rather than just the top of their heads or a close up to a couple of them?

Plenty of times. We see Piet in the crew pits too. And remember, we're only looking for a half-second shot here. We don't need anything major, just a shot of a woman at a console on duty. That's it. But we don't - even though we DO see men at those stations.

the bunker on Endor (all the officers were men, AT-ST pilots were men)

A front-line installation where they know is going to come under attack. And funny, I thought we were talking about supporting roles, not front-line combat units.

My mistake.

the meeting of Moffs and Generals and Admirals on the Death Star (not ONE woman - these guys don't even secretaries! ) etc.

A meeting of a dozen military leaders. Hardly the equivalent of the support role position of the RA females we were talking about.

But we see female leaders in the RA. Both Leia and Mothma are highly positioned in the Alliance. We don't see an equivalent on the Imperial side.

[consequences]

Here's a BS theory that'll get me killed, maybe the reason the Empire has no women is that all of the treacherous b!tches joined the Rebels?

[IRG CommandoJoe]

How many females did you see in the Yavin and Hoth hangars?

I have a theory I wrote a while ago about why you don't see too many non-white male humans in the Rebel Alliance until RotJ. Here it is:

*Applauds Doomriser's brilliant post.*
I agree fully. Except people seem to overlook that only women and aliens are excluded from the Empire. Haven't you noticed that only white people are in the Empire as well? And the reason why there weren't any aliens and women and different colored skin people [in the Rebel Alliance] in the first two movies was because:
a. The Rebel Alliance was still struggling to gain worlds to support them, thus limiting them to mostly humans.
b. Probably all of the Imperial Academy students were the only pilots available to the Rebellion in the beginning (ANH). My observation of no women or different colored skin people or aliens in the Empire means that they wouldn't have been in the Academy in the first place. Considering pilots in the Academy probably have the best training available anywhere for starfighter pilots, the Rebel Alliance had those on their Yavin IV base (Wedge, Biggs, and Leia must have had some strings pulled for Luke, lol). The best of the Academy pilots later on were most likely selected to be in Rogue Squadron on Hoth. As stated, there would only be white, male humans in the Academy, thus the only ones in Rogue Squadron at the time. Later on, Rogue Squadron and other Academy graduates must have trained their own new pilots outside the Academy, so that meant more people with different skin color, women, and aliens would be trained to fly Rebel starfighters. I hope that makes sense, lol.

I added the bracketed part for clarification. I think that explains it nicely.

[Rogue 9]

Didnt the rebellion sell spice off to fund their war, while killing smugglers for the spice?

Not that I'm aware of. Where'd you get that?

Bria Tharen and her unit did back out on the smuggling coalition that helped them take Elysia (I think the name was), the Hutt spice processing world, but they didn't kill them or steal the spice directly from them; they grabbed the spice as spoils in an operation to free the slaves on the world. The smugglers had agreed to help for a cut of the spice, which they didn't get, but they weren't killed nor were their ships stopped and plundered. (Incidentally, this is the "what you pulled" Lando was referring to when he met Han on Cloud City. Bria Tharen was Han's former girlfriend and the one who arranged the deal with the Rebels, and the other smugglers thought he'd sold them out, when he got cheated just as much as they did.)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Notice that Imperials tend to be portrayed on warships in the trilogy. The modern battlefield may have blurred the distinction between Combat and Support, but a Warship has little distinction. That's may be why women aren't allowed.

It isn't fair to compare Bases with Warships. Again, it is fairly recent that the US allowed women on warships at all.

[Rogue 9]

The Death Star was a base for all practical purposes. And that still leaves the problem of no aliens or non-white humans.

[Lord of the Farce]

The point is that's a SUPPORT role, and they don't have helmets or whatever, and we don't see any women. We DO see women in the Hoth base acting as support roles (that anonymous woman, and Leia), and the ANH novelisation mentions women being a part of the combined RA forces present at the ceremony.

So out of millions of people onboard they couldn't show one woman?

Plenty of times. We see Piet in the crew pits too. And remember, we're only looking for a half-second shot here. We don't need anything major, just a shot of a woman at a console on duty. That's it. But we don't - even though we DO see men at those stations.

What you haven't taken into consideration is proportions. In a crowd of millions of people where males and females are randomly positioned, is it easily possible to be in any one sections where the only people in clear sight are male. In a perfectly scaled down 1/10,000 version of this same crowd, the chances of being in any one sections where the only people in clear sight are male is massively reduced.
Starting to see my point yet?

But we see female leaders in the RA. Both Leia and Mothma are highly positioned in the Alliance. We don't see an equivalent on the Imperial side.

Two female political leaders, both of whom had been highly positioned in the Empire prior to the abolishment of the senate. And if finding traitors using their positions in the senate to aiding-and-abetting terrorists has been on the rise, we suddenly have a good explaination as to why it was abolished.

[Stofsk]

Starting to see my point yet?

Yes.

My point was we don't know. Pure and simple, because we don't see women and the possibility that those helmeted gunners or pilots etc might be women remain a possibility.

Furthermore I believe we have Daala state sexism exists in the Imperial forces. Since EU is right unless proven wrong by canon this is a very strong indicator of Imperial prejudice. Starting to see my point yet?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Death Star was a base for all practical purposes. And that still leaves the problem of no aliens or non-white humans.

1) The Death Star can move at superluminal speeds. Hardly characteristic of a Base.
2) Non-white humans might just be statistically in the minority, thus greatly reducing the chance you'd see them.
3) From the film alone (the game we are playing now) Alien recruitment may be greatly hampered by the fact many of them don't speak the language. How thrilled would an Imp officer be with a Wookiee that he can't understand? Or a Sullustan's squeaky language? Should he teach them 40 basic commands in Basic, like the Russians? Should the Imp officer have to learn 5 nearly unpronounceable languages?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Furthermore I believe we have Daala state sexism exists in the Imperial forces. Since EU is right unless proven wrong by canon this is a very strong indicator of Imperial prejudice. Starting to see my point yet?

From her point of view. Which was probably mostly judged by how fast she promoted. If her visible performance is any indicator, I'd say refusals to further promote her would be valid, whether they are sexist or not.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

And if finding traitors using their positions in the senate to aiding-and-abetting terrorists has been on the rise, we suddenly have a good explaination as to why it was abolished.

So then if there were U.S. senators aiding terrorists, they wouldn't be investigated and arrested, and the U.S. Senate would simply be dissolved? Is that a logical approach to the situation? "What? We have some traitors in our government? Let's just quit on this whole governmental idea instead of fixing the problem."

[Lord of the Farce]

So then if there were U.S. senators aiding terrorists, they wouldn't be investigated and arrested, and the U.S. Senate would simply be dissolved? Is that a logical approach to the situation? "What? We have some traitors in our government? Let's just quit on this whole governmental idea instead of fixing the problem."

If it has been found out that a number of senators has repeatedly managed to successfully use the structure and the power of the senate as a way to allow them to smuggle secrets and ferry terrorists around, why would it be a bad idea to put a halt to their operations and use some interim method?

[IRG CommandoJoe]

2) Non-white humans might just be statistically in the minority, thus greatly reducing the chance you'd see them.

I think that's a bunch of bullshit. In all other organizations in other movies you see much more diversity.

3) From the film alone (the game we are playing now) Alien recruitment may be greatly hampered by the fact many of them don't speak the language. How thrilled would an Imp officer be with a Wookiee that he can't understand? Or a Sullustan's squeaky language? Should he teach them 40 basic commands in Basic, like the Russians? Should the Imp officer have to learn 5 nearly unpronounceable languages?

All right, fine. Movies only, why is the military comprise of humans in the first place if there are aliens that are superior to them? Why not have all TIE Fighter pilots/speeder bike scouts/etc. be any one of the aliens seen in the pod race in TPM, since their reflexes are better than human reflexes? Anakin was only able to podrace because of his Force abilities. Why not have all infantry units be Wookies, since they are physically stronger? If they are going to standardize weapons, vehicles, controls, languages, etc. then they ought to pick the most efficient species for each one as the model. But no, they pick humans. Why? There is no logical reason for it. The whole thing smacks of discrimination.

And I'm fairly certain you are assuming the Imperial officer in question is human, which sort of proves my point even further.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

If it has been found out that a number of senators has repeatedly managed to successfully use the structure and the power of the senate as a way to allow them to smuggle secrets and ferry terrorists around, why would it be a bad idea to put a halt to their operations and use some interim method?

Because they could just as easily be replaced by trusted people. Also, do you honestly believe the abolishment of the Imperial Senate was an "interim method"? It was permanent.

[Rogue 9]

The Death Star was a base for all practical purposes. And that still leaves the problem of no aliens or non-white humans.

1) The Death Star can move at superluminal speeds. Hardly characteristic of a Base.

The Death Star was supposed to be one of the most secure positions in the Starfleet. (Actually, given that its job was to destroy planets, its very existence made it more secure than a lot of planets. ) If there were going to be women assigned anywhere in the military, that would be it.