Dark Empire: Like it or Leave it?

[Connor MacLeod]

Blah blah blah Connor.

Which means "I'm going to ignore you because I can't pull my bulslhit." Aka, your usual tactics in debates.

I said you have Zahn to blame for the time crunch.

Its true, he convinced LFL to let him not reference it, so Vietch had to squeeze DE in there at the last minute.

REEEALLLY? I haven't seen you providing any quotes or anything to substantiate your claim. In fact, Wayne and Crown are the only one who have actually *posted* evidence which tends to argue just the opposite.. Rather humerous, espeically in light of the bullshit you've been pulling.

Period. All I was going to make was a comment about it, akin to the typical prod about B&B's incompetence in PST, someone stating how continuity is shit in PSW, or something about fundies just about everywhere else.

You mean like you did in "New Canon commentary?" Gee, I guess everyone is just out to get you, aren't they.

But no, of course not, simply stating "You have Zahn to blame for that" was enough to bring you in to make your little baiting quip, and the rest of them whining because they think Zahn's the end all to be all of the EU (which I don't really contest--he's at least the second best writer in a very small group of decent ones). Well neither thing changes anything. The point of contention was whether it was because of Zahn that DE had to squeeze awkwardly between TTT and JAT. And I was fucking right. The only bit of ambiguity is how much time Zahn had. Either way it would not have been squeezed in except that he convinced LFL not to let him reference it, and no amount of bitching is going to make that untrue. Facts are stubborn.

Cry me a river, little man. Your pathetic attempts at a persecution complex fall flat based on the fact that (as I have poitned out previously) I'm not the only one to call you on your little bashfest. On top of that, we have prior evidence fo you trying to pull this bullshit to draw upon. Nice try to wriggle out yet again, Primey, but your intentions have been obvious from the very minute you mentioned Zahn, and its obvious you aren't going to be able to prove anything.

Concession accepted, you trolling fucktard.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Deep Core != the Core Worlds.

Read Darksabre: Deep Core = Warlord's bases (nice little resort worlds where you can die of radiation poisoning if you don't live a metre below shielded walls), and Core = Imperial holdings.

By TNR, Empire ... gone and hiding out on the Rim.

I would address your previous post in detail, if it wasn't for the sheer ridiculousness of you claiming; relocation of Imperial territory in 1 year in order to serve DE purposes = A-O-K, relocation of Imperial territory 7 years after Darksabre = Zahn's an asshole.

Coruscant is controlled by the Republic. The Core is not Imperial territory.

The "Core Worlds" and "the Core" are synonymous; "the Core Systems" are synonymous with "the Deep Core."

The point was that at least Vietch accounted for it in his stories, if with just a throwaway line. Zahn just popped in and announced that the Empire was eight sectors on the fringe. Plus when you've nearly conquered the galaxy, moving your bases of operation is one thing. When you're a depleted fleet crossing tens of thousands of light-years of enemy territory to relocate, its a different story.

REEEALLLY? I haven't seen you providing any quotes or anything to substantiate your claim. In fact, Wayne and Crown are the only one who have actually *posted* evidence which tends to argue just the opposite.. Rather humerous, espeically in light of the bullshit you've been pulling.

when Zahn refused to adjust his material to reflect the events of Dark Empire, and so Veitch was forced, with little notice, to move his story to the year AFTER Zahn's tales and write a hasty section of the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies.

Q: Was it difficult to work with a well-known universe which was already created by George Lucas, Brian Daley's Han Solo books, West End Games, the syndicated comic strips and others?

TZ: ...I had some problems with the Dark Horse Comics series [Dark Empire], and persuaded them to let me not have to reference anything there."
(Timothy Zahn: From Heir to Last Command
Star Wars Adventure Journal vol. 1, issue. 1, Feb. 1994)

I posted my comments on page 2. You only responded to the parts telling you to screw off.

So enjoy. Like I said, all Handley does is repeat exactly what I said what happened, and then blame it on LFL. Well, ok, that's his position. But its a fact that had Zahn not pushed to not have to reference DE, then the screw-up would never have occured.

[Kurgan]

Dark Empire I & II (viewed as a whole) was "KEWL".

I don't use that word normally, so I think it describes it well.

What I mean is, the thing had interesting artistic style, and was full of action and fun stuff. This set it head and shoulders (sadly) above a lot of the EU with its blandness and main character dumbingdown/killing in favor of third rate new characters, etc.


The downside of course was that it was totally unoriginal (Hey I know, let's resurrect all the dead villians from the movies and introduce more super weapons and "dark force technology" to make uberwank armies for the good guys to defeat with deus ex machina!!). Hey, but at least it was a fun read through. A "popcorn movie" of a graphic novel. Sort of like the movies, in their own medium.

PS: The "Dark Side Acolytes" that Palpatine's clone makes was one of the most laughable villian plots ever. It was so funny how it turned out so, "naturally."

"Muahahaha! I have been given the power of the Dark Side by the resurrected Emperor's own hand!" (*staggers toward Luke with outstretched hands, doing bad zombie impersonation from any B-movie* *promptly cut down with single lightsaber slash*)

[Galvatron]

Coruscant is controlled by the Republic. The Core is not Imperial territory.

The "Core Worlds" and "the Core" are synonymous; "the Core Systems" are synonymous with "the Deep Core."

The point was that at least Vietch accounted for it in his stories, if with just a throwaway line. Zahn just popped in and announced that the Empire was eight sectors on the fringe. Plus when you've nearly conquered the galaxy, moving your bases of operation is one thing. When you're a depleted fleet crossing tens of thousands of light-years of enemy territory to relocate, its a different story.

When did Coruscant officially get placed in the Core? I've been following the EU novels pretty closely since TTT and was quite surprised when I saw its location on the galactic map in the NJO hardcovers. I'd always envisioned it as being on the Inner Rim.

[SirNitram]

I enjoyed Dark Empire. It was one of the better stories told in the SW Universe.

DE2 falls short of it's original, but is still head and shoulders above most of the EU. With people like KJA around, that's not asking much, sadly.

Empire's End.. Hrm. I liken it to Act 26 of Big O: You can feel they were going for a big, involving plot, hints of something grand and exciting, but it feels rushed, contrived, and incomplete. I came out of it feeling like they suddenly realized they were on the last part of the trilogy and had to junk it together tonight.

[Galvatron]

What I mean is, the thing had interesting artistic style, and was full of action and fun stuff. This set it head and shoulders (sadly) above a lot of the EU with its blandness and main character dumbingdown/killing in favor of third rate new characters, etc.

The downside of course was that it was totally unoriginal (Hey I know, let's resurrect all the dead villians from the movies and introduce more super weapons and "dark force technology" to make uberwank armies for the good guys to defeat with deus ex machina!!). Hey, but at least it was a fun read through. A "popcorn movie" of a graphic novel. Sort of like the movies, in their own medium.

Dark Empire was a wankfest. It did some good, however, in that it countered the EU's rampant minimalism.

The resurrection of Palpatine was lame. At least Zahn had enough imagination to invent a convincing new enemy in Thrawn and C'Baoth (although I think C'Baoth could have been so much more, but Zahn was limited in what he could do by LFL). Boba Fett's comeback: just more of the same wanking.

In short, it strikes me as somewhat telling of Tom Veitch's imagination and writing skills that DE was the best he could come up with after being "years in the making." Of course, I have the same opinion of the SW prequels so it comes as no surprise to me that George Lucas actually liked DE...

[Lord Poe]

IP, all you're doing is picking and choosing what you want to read as well. Above, I posted exactly why Zahn didn't want to reference DE, he wasn't TOLD about it until he had constructed his entire story arc, and only AFTER Lucasfilm decided everything from Sw comics to Sw toilet paper was "in continuity."

So Zahn refused to rewrite everything he worked hard on- giving us one of the VERY few highlights in the EU? For a comic book? Too bad. Lucas Licensing could have fired him. Its very telling that they didn't.

Let's see what Zahn would have had to change, had DE took precidence.

Mara Jade: She wouldn't be with Karrde, and wouldn't be on a final mission to kill Luke Skywalker. Completely destroying her entire backstory, because the Emperor would have recalled her immediately.

GA Thrawn: He would not have started his campaign, wouldn't have looted Wayland, and would have been a minimal character- as soon as the Emperor recalled him to Byss.

C'Baoth: Would have been written out of the continuity, since he was Luke's Dark Teacher Zahn thought up. Instead, thias arc would have been replaced by Luke learning at the feet of the Emperor.

Noghri: Would have been written out of continuity, since the Emperor wouldn't allow Thrawn to command them.

The Three Solo kids: Probably would have been knocked down to two, with Anakin being the oldest.

And that's just the top layers. Gee, I wonder why Zahn didn't want to do all this, in deference to a fuckin' comic book....

[Connor MacLeod]

I posted my comments on page 2. You only responded to the parts telling you to screw off.

You mean the quote that you selectively clipped out of the stuff Wayne posted? The same quote where he and Crown both pointed out you were "picking and choosing" amongst the evidence?

So enjoy. Like I said, all Handley does is repeat exactly what I said what happened, and then blame it on LFL. Well, ok, that's his position. But its a fact that had Zahn not pushed to not have to reference DE, then the screw-up would never have occured.

Which only works because a.) You ignore part of the quote entirely (As Wayne pointed out twice, and as Crown did as well, you are picking and choosing your evidence.) in favor of using only a fragment of a single quote, and b.) That Zahn could only have had selfish or nefarious purposes for his refusal, even though none of the evidence posted actually gives such an indication. Simply refusing to do something does not automatically equate what you assume (in fact, the overall context of what Wayne posted suggests Zahn was NOT at fault - no wonder you decided to cut that part out.) Sorry, but it doesn't work that way, and oyu obviously CAN'T prove that Zahn had ulterior motives in refusing to do so (other than the fact you think he's an asshole. Last time I checked, idiotic ranting from little bitches was not partt of the canon/official hierarchy.)

Like I said, concession accepted, you whining fanwhore.

[Galvatron]

And that's just the top layers. Gee, I wonder why Zahn didn't want to do all this, in deference to a fuckin' comic book....

According to the StarWars.com...

"Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible."

I wonder why Zahn's never vilified for failing to reconcile the Thrawn trilogy with the post-ROTJ Marvel comics. They most definitely came before Zahn's novels, are now considered official by LFL, and yet for some reason they're never mentioned in these discussions.

Given what came before, I can't blame Zahn for disregarding the "stupid comic books."

[Illuminatus Primus]

IP, all you're doing is picking and choosing what you want to read as well. Above, I posted exactly why Zahn didn't want to reference DE, he wasn't TOLD about it until he had constructed his entire story arc, and only AFTER Lucasfilm decided everything from Sw comics to Sw toilet paper was "in continuity."

Bullshit. No one has any idea when Zahn found out about Dark Empire. In fact, your Handley quotes only say that Vietch was informed to change his story to fit the Thrawn Trilogy at the last minute.

All that Zahn and Handley say is that he requested to not have to reference it; not when along his writing process he was told--none of that. Just that LFL approved both projects while not informing either one. As for these "ulterior motives." I never claimed Zahn's motives. I said it was Zahn's fault. How can you argue with that? If Zahn had not made that request, the fuck-up would not have occurred. You may choose to believe that Zahn's request was justified by the timing of being made aware of DE, but you've provided NO information on that. It isn't my job to prove that Zahn DIDN'T recieve notice at the last minute. That's your job to prove it.

All I stated was that what occured you had Zahn to thank for. Which is true. The consequences were a direct result of his actions. Maybe I'd extend the benefit of a doubt; but based on his personal commentary on other authors' work in VotF, especially regarding the Clone Emperor, I don't find that assumption teniable. Not that it makes any difference.

All we do know is both authors were uninformed when LFL approved both their projects. That TZ did not want to reference DE when he found out, and LFL allowed him. Then Vietch had to shoehorn his story in at the last minute. If you have precise info on when TZ found out about DE, by all means, bring it forward.

And that "SW toilet paper" wasn't described as such in your quotes. Handley said that the novels and comics are definitely both in-continuity, and George Lucas personally chose those at the helm of the Marvel SW comics back at their inception. GL loved Dark Empire and had more to do with it than the Thrawn Trilogy (to which he just told Zahn to not mention Prequel stuff and that C'boath couldn't be a cloned Obi-Wan and that the Noghri couldn't be the Sith). So please, justify this fabrication.

So Zahn refused to rewrite everything he worked hard on- giving us one of the VERY few highlights in the EU? For a comic book? Too bad. Lucas Licensing could have fired him. Its very telling that they didn't.

LL is spineless. They never crack down on any author, so no, its not really telling, because they never treat anyone else any differently, or do any real proactive work.

Let's see what Zahn would have had to change, had DE took precidence.

Mara Jade: She wouldn't be with Karrde, and wouldn't be on a final mission to kill Luke Skywalker. Completely destroying her entire backstory, because the Emperor would have recalled her immediately.

Palpatine would be dead again by TTT; her last mission would have been during Palpatine's return--would it really matter so much that he didn't give his "Last Command" during his death on the Death Star II? Besides, it never made any sense that Palpatine wanted Luke dead during RoTJ.

Palpatine would've recalled her--yes, but that would've been years prior anyway by this hypothetical TTT.

GA Thrawn: He would not have started his campaign, wouldn't have looted Wayland, and would have been a minimal character- as soon as the Emperor recalled him to Byss.

After the DE arc, Palpatine would've been dead again. All it would've taken would be to say Palpatine instructed Thrawn to remain on his mission in the UR.

C'Baoth: Would have been written out of the continuity, since he was Luke's Dark Teacher Zahn thought up. Instead, thias arc would have been replaced by Luke learning at the feet of the Emperor.

Palpatine's already dead, and the trick of C'boath is Luke actually thought he was a Jedi, not that he was under the knowing teaching of a Dark Sider.

Noghri: Would have been written out of continuity, since the Emperor wouldn't allow Thrawn to command them.

With the end of the DE arc, Palpatine's dead again, Thrawn can do what he pleases. Are you honestly suggesting that Vietch and LFL would've left the only possibility as "you have to continue the story where DE leaves off and bring the Emperor back AGAIN from his death at the end of DE." What kind of a false dilemma is that?

The Three Solo kids: Probably would have been knocked down to two, with Anakin being the oldest.

Does it make a difference? All they did was be the target of attempted kidnappings.

And that's just the top layers. Gee, I wonder why Zahn didn't want to do all this, in deference to a fuckin' comic book....

Well it sure makes it easier to criticize when your hypotheticals are predicated on the ridiculous assertion DE would have to be immediately on top of TTT, and the Emperor wouldn't be killed off again by the end of the DE arc. At least Thrawn wouldn't have been a meaningless pawn overshadowed and manipulated by the Emperor in retcon.

[consequences]

Palpatine's already dead, and the trick of C'boath is Luke actually thought he was a Jedi, not that he was under the knowing teaching of a Dark Sider

That only flies if Luke isn't familiar with Dark Side techniques, methods, and thinking, something that would be extremely difficult to justify, considering he would have learned all about them at the Emperor's feet during DE.
That's about the only thing I feel qualified to comment on.

[Ghost Rider]

Okay so let's do a hypothetical.

DE happens...thus Calamari is ravaged, The remaining Empire has an enourmous base of operations and resources, the Alliance is on the run, and last but not least Luke has attained immense powers.

Let's try and see what can Zahn incorporate into TTT.

1. Calamari being ravaged wouldn't matter.

2. Thrawn would be an impotent for unless given command of the remaining Imperial forces, to which he would most likely win.

3. The galaxy is in an immense state of upheavel thus the main focus would be on the war going on, nothing about any points of rebuilding or such not.

4. C'Baoth would be a blip, and possibly not even there. There's hordes of Dark Jedi, what does one lone master even begin to matter if Luke is already on his way to mastery.

Aisde from Zahn completely scrapping the ENTIRE story of his trilogy, it would never work.

Thus let's say Zahn was faced with being a dick and going no mine comes first or go "Sure I'll scrap mine for DE coming first.", personally he had only one logical choice. Be a dick.

There is no other logical conclusion unless he wanted to practically destroy any impact his story had since the DE story arc was a bigger louder version of his galactic war.

[Illuminatus Primus]

2. Thrawn would be an impotent for unless given command of the remaining Imperial forces, to which he would most likely win.

An Imperial Grand Admiral generally outranks every officer everywhere, and is thus the obvious candidate for a new supreme commander, just like in the original timeline.

3. The galaxy is in an immense state of upheavel thus the main focus would be on the war going on, nothing about any points of rebuilding or such not.

The war would just still be ongoing--this would have the added benefit of not having the stupid reset button being hit after Palpatine died again--the Republic would press the advantage, then Thrawn would hit back. Make a REAL Galactic Civil War.

4. C'Baoth would be a blip, and possibly not even there. There's hordes of Dark Jedi, what does one lone master even begin to matter if Luke is already on his way to mastery.

The Dark Siders of the Week were from Dark Empire II, which was made years later, and in this hypothetical, doesn't exist since TTT takes place after DE and leaves little room for an expanded arc. And if you want to include the expanded arc, the Dark Siders of the Week are obliterated anyway when the Galaxy Gun annhiliates Byss. You can't pick that in your hypothetical DE2 happens but not EE. There are no residual Dark Siders.

Aisde from Zahn completely scrapping the ENTIRE story of his trilogy, it would never work.

Why? The Empire simply starts from a position of greater strength, and the war is of a more decent scale. Mara's last assignment was more recent, and there's another child being kidnapped. Luke's still confused and looking for help in light of his recent weakness.

Thus let's say Zahn was faced with being a dick and going no mine comes first or go "Sure I'll scrap mine for DE coming first.", personally he had only one logical choice. Be a dick.

He could've discussed with Vietch, contacted him; something. Nothing indicates he did so. Merely he immediately asked LFL to let him dismiss references to DE. Anderson could communicate and cooperate, and did so of his own will. Surely Zahn can as well.

There is no other logical conclusion unless he wanted to practically destroy any impact his story had since the DE story arc was a bigger louder version of his galactic war.

I think TTT would've been well-helped by less Mary Sue-ing of Thrawn's already magic-uber character and a bigger-scale war with a more even opposition between the two sides--as well as avoiding that damnable reset button after each arc.

[Ghost Rider]

2. Thrawn would be an impotent for unless given command of the remaining Imperial forces, to which he would most likely win.

An Imperial Grand Admiral generally outranks every officer everywhere, and is thus the obvious candidate for a new supreme commander, just like in the original timeline.

And quite literally he would be no different than using the Taco Bell dog for a commander.

For all Thrawn uberness and what not, it was using a inferior force and minimal supplies versus a superior force.

Giving him a superior force AND his same level of knowledge...the war would've ended within a week and three pages.

3. The galaxy is in an immense state of upheavel thus the main focus would be on the war going on, nothing about any points of rebuilding or such not.

The war would just still be ongoing--this would have the added benefit of not having the stupid reset button being hit after Palpatine died again--the Republic would press the advantage, then Thrawn would hit back. Make a REAL Galactic Civil War.

Given that the Emperor in his near rabid madness had brought them practically to their knees.

I doubt the way Zahn wrote Thrawn this battle would last beyond him parking outside the current Alliance base and pound away.

4. C'Baoth would be a blip, and possibly not even there. There's hordes of Dark Jedi, what does one lone master even begin to matter if Luke is already on his way to mastery.

The Dark Siders of the Week were from Dark Empire II, which was made years later, and in this hypothetical, doesn't exist since TTT takes place after DE and leaves little room for an expanded arc. And if you want to include the expanded arc, the Dark Siders of the Week are obliterated anyway when the Galaxy Gun annhiliates Byss. You can't pick that in your hypothetical DE2 happens but not EE. There are no residual Dark Siders.

Actually so all those people that were rumored in the backdrop of DE that were mention to surround Palpatine were NOT dark siders, even though the background material specifically calls them as such?

He had Dark Siders already there...just because they weren't used until DE2 does not mean they would mysteriously vanish.

Thus C'Baoth whole impact would be nothing more then..."Oh look another Force user...and look he's a dark sider!"

Aisde from Zahn completely scrapping the ENTIRE story of his trilogy, it would never work.

Why? The Empire simply starts from a position of greater strength, and the war is of a more decent scale. Mara's last assignment was more recent, and there's another child being kidnapped. Luke's still confused and looking for help in light of his recent weakness.

How?

Literally Luke is already an uber Jedi, and the C'Baoth storyline would be dropped like a hot potato, unless you want to make Luke even more mewling that he requires a Jedi Master to figure out his current problems.

As well it's a certainly a huge drop in quality Force villainy to go from someone who can summon storms, destroy cap ships to an old man who can control one ISD at most.

Thus let's say Zahn was faced with being a dick and going no mine comes first or go "Sure I'll scrap mine for DE coming first.", personally he had only one logical choice. Be a dick.

He could've discussed with Vietch, contacted him; something. Nothing indicates he did so. Merely he immediately asked LFL to let him dismiss references to DE. Anderson could communicate and cooperate, and did so of his own will. Surely Zahn can as well.

Given what Poe has shown he was far enough along that being a dick was his only recourse.

There is no other logical conclusion unless he wanted to practically destroy any impact his story had since the DE story arc was a bigger louder version of his galactic war.

I think TTT would've been well-helped by less Mary Sue-ing of Thrawn's already magic-uber character and a bigger-scale war with a more even opposition between the two sides--as well as avoiding that damnable reset button after each arc.

Which would been either uber Deus ex machina saving their Alliance ass.

Thrawn was written to be a military genius...having the resources of the Empire would've made this into a weekend excursion unless somehow the Alliance magically recovers to 110% to combat this level of power.

[Lord Poe]

Bullshit. No one has any idea when Zahn found out about Dark Empire. In fact, your Handley quotes only say that Vietch was informed to change his story to fit the Thrawn Trilogy at the last minute.

Read the fucking quotes again. Everyone else got it EXCEPT you.

Therefore, any inconsistencies between the Zahn and Veitch stories are not the fault of either author, but rather Lucasfilm, who neglected to tell either author about the other's work, and who forced Veitch to change his work with too little notice to make the transition a smooth one.

Zahn didn't KNOW ABOUT THE MOTHERFUCKING COMIC. Is that clear enough for you?

All that Zahn and Handley say is that he requested to not have to reference it; not when along his writing process he was told--none of that. Just that LFL approved both projects while not informing either one.

You're full of fucking shit. READ THER ABOVE AGAIN AND QUOTE THAT IF YOU CAN FIND IT.

Tim Zahn Interview, TFN

TZ: It was one of those "bolt from the blue" type of things. Back in '88, Lou Aronica approached Lucasfilm to suggest that Bantam do a three-book continuation of the Star Wars saga, picking up after "Return Of The Jedi", where no writers had been allowed to work before, in novels or comic books or anything else. It took Lucasfilm a year to decide to go ahead with it, and in late '89 they got back in touch with Aronica and said, "okay, let's give this a shot. Find us an author and we'll talk contract." Bantam's editors got together and made up a short list of writers they thought could do a good job on Star Wars books, sent the list out to Lucasfilm with samples of our writing so they could see what kind of style each person had, and the Lucasfilm people decided my style fit Star Wars best of the ones they were offered. So I got a Monday afternoon 4 p.m. call from my agent saying "we've had a very interesting offer here." I had no idea it was in the works. I had been with Bantam a grand total of six weeks at that time. My editor had almost not recommended me at their editors meeting because she wanted to see the book I'd contracted for and didn't want me sidetracked with this media stuff. So it was one of those things where all the pieces just laid out in the proper position, proper order, and I got the offer. It then took Lucasfilm and Bantam five months to work out their contract. I had the outline in the first month for all three books, but then I couldn't start writing for a few months but I had all of it simmering in my mind while I worked on other projects. So it was really quite ready to go by the time I actually started writing.

Post your proof that Zahn didn't want to change his story BEFORE he had it fleshed out. That's your bullshit assertion, and you've provided NO PROOF. The ABOVE however, AGAIN, proves otherwise.

As for these "ulterior motives." I never claimed Zahn's motives. I said it was Zahn's fault. How can you argue with that? If Zahn had not made that request, the fuck-up would not have occurred. You may choose to believe that Zahn's request was justified by the timing of being made aware of DE, but you've provided NO information on that. It isn't my job to prove that Zahn DIDN'T recieve notice at the last minute. That's your job to prove it.

It IS your fucking job to PROVE YOU ALLEGATIONS. YOU HAVEN'T. Give me ONE SOURCE where Zahn says, "I was told about DE before I started writing, but I said fuck that shit, my story goes first."

Actually, Adam, I can tell you from being friends with Tom and having discussed this with him that Tom didn't invent the name. The only reason it was thrown into Dark Empire at the last minute (only in the text pages, mind you -- in the comic itself it says "Imperial City" and other such ambiguous names) was because Zahn had recently written Heir to the Empire and Tom was told he had to change DE to fit that. Originally, DE took place soon after ROTJ, but at the last minute, he was told to change things to work around HTTE. Thus, a lot of changes were made to the text pages to smooth out the inconsistencies between them.

All I stated was that what occured you had Zahn to thank for. Which is true.

Which is bullshit:

Therefore, any inconsistencies between the Zahn and Veitch stories are not the fault of either author, but rather Lucasfilm, who neglected to tell either author about the other's work, and who forced Veitch to change his work with too little notice to make the transition a smooth one.

The consequences were a direct result of his actions.

PROVE IT FOR MOTHERFUCK'S SAKE.

Maybe I'd extend the benefit of a doubt; but based on his personal commentary on other authors' work in VotF, especially regarding the Clone Emperor, I don't find that assumption teniable. Not that it makes any difference.

Oh, did he hurt your feelings, because he badmouthed Dark Empire?

Maybe that's because Veitch has been doing that to Zahn since TTT came out:

Veitch Crying a River #1

Stuart James Ross: How do you feel about the way that other writers have handled the continuation of the Star wars legend?

Tom Veitch: Do you mean the novelists??

Stuart James Ross: yes

Tom Veitch: I will be out front with my opinion on this. I don't enjoy reading most of them.

Jim Fisher: You mentioned that Zahn hadn't been released as Dark Empire was being plotted. Why wasn't Dark Empire seriously changed or shelved [as Kenneth Flint's Heart of the Jedi was] for continuity problems?

Tom Veitch: Why wasn't Zahn's plot changed to reflect Dark Empire, that's the question.

Veitch Crying a River #2

In those days I had quite a bit of "power" relative to these Star Wars projects, largely because I was the first guy into the pipe. Lucasfilm asked me if I wanted to write a Star Wars novel. I said ok, of course. But when they set up their license with Bantam, Bantam's editors said "you don't want a comics writer doing this...we'll get you a REAL science fiction writer!" All I can say to that is "hah hah". I'm not a fan of the books that Bantam has done, with the exception of the McQuarrie art book and one or two of the novels.

Seems like this fuck has QUITE a chip on his shoulder, doesn't it? And its because Bantam chose Zahn over HIM for the novels. Zahn FIXED a lot of bullshit in the EU after TTT in his Duology, and rightly smacked those that needed it. Most of those books SUCK.

All we do know is both authors were uninformed when LFL approved both their projects. That TZ did not want to reference DE when he found out, and LFL allowed him. Then Vietch had to shoehorn his story in at the last minute. If you have precise info on when TZ found out about DE, by all means, bring it forward.

See the thread, and see above. If you have any information whatsoever that says Zahn didn't want to to change his storyline BEFORE he layed it out, BEFORE it was approved, and BEFORE he went ahead and began writing, post it.

And that "SW toilet paper" wasn't described as such in your quotes. Handley said that the novels and comics are definitely both in-continuity, and George Lucas personally chose those at the helm of the Marvel SW comics back at their inception. GL loved Dark Empire and had more to do with it than the Thrawn Trilogy (to which he just told Zahn to not mention Prequel stuff and that C'boath couldn't be a cloned Obi-Wan and that the Noghri couldn't be the Sith). So please, justify this fabrication.

Sure, I'll just REPEAT WHAT I'VE ALREADY FUCKING POSTED, SINCE YOU CAN'T SEEM TO FIND IT:

It was after Dark Empire and Tim Zahn's books that he [Lucas] took a back seat and let his staff deal with the books.]

LL is spineless. They never crack down on any author, so no, its not really telling, because they never treat anyone else any differently, or do any real proactive work.

Except for comic writers, apparently. Which goes to show you what they think is more imortant: Novels>Comics.

Palpatine would be dead again by TTT; her last mission would have been during Palpatine's return--would it really matter so much that he didn't give his "Last Command" during his death on the Death Star II? Besides, it never made any sense that Palpatine wanted Luke dead during RoTJ.

Oh, no. Not only did Luke refuse to become his new Sith Lord, he took his OLD Sith Lord away from him, caused his death, AND the destruction of his Empire. Nope, nothing to be TOO pissed at there...

After the DE arc, Palpatine would've been dead again. All it would've taken would be to say Palpatine instructed Thrawn to remain on his mission in the UR.

And Palpatine would NOT have called his greatest tactician to Byss? Thrawn simply sat it out, then waited for the Emperor's SECOND defeat to act? Yeah, that makes sense.

Palpatine's already dead, and the trick of C'boath is Luke actually thought he was a Jedi, not that he was under the knowing teaching of a Dark Sider.

Doesn't matter. Luke would know a Dark Jedi from a Master by this point, since he was suddenly "super Jedi" after DE.

With the end of the DE arc, Palpatine's dead again, Thrawn can do what he pleases.

Right. After he sat on his thumbs until the Emperor was defeated AGAIN. So he decides to sift through the Emperor's best scrap the...Noghri....to help take back the Galaxy. I guess the resources at Byss wasn't much interest to him. Right...

Are you honestly suggesting that Vietch and LFL would've left the only possibility as "you have to continue the story where DE leaves off and bring the Emperor back AGAIN from his death at the end of DE." What kind of a false dilemma is that?

WTF are you talking about?

Well it sure makes it easier to criticize when your hypotheticals are predicated on the ridiculous assertion DE would have to be immediately on top of TTT, and the Emperor wouldn't be killed off again by the end of the DE arc. At least Thrawn wouldn't have been a meaningless pawn overshadowed and manipulated by the Emperor in retcon.

Yeah, Thrawn is so meaningless that every week, someone asks in what novel Luke turned to the Dark Side, but they know of Thrawn, and Thrawn has appeared in games, action figures, and other media since his inception. Meanwhile, you're pissed that DE with an Emperor that wears a Dracula opera cape complete with the tall collar is actually minimized in the grand shitty scheme of the EU.