Number of Capital Ships in the Empire

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't believe Thrawn really needed any SSDs to accomplish his goals.

Probably not; the Unknown Regions were probably in mostly uninterested and disperse regions of the galaxy, such as the galactic halo and thus do not require much of the naval power that the inner regions of the disk would.

(Then again, we have the Intimidator, which was later found irreparable damaged near (or in?) the UR. So somebody or somehting was powerful enough to damage an SSD. )

The Deep Core is adjacent to the galactic halo. I find it simpler and easier to believe that she simply was pounded into scrap in combat with the remaining Deep Core warlords.

The only warlord I can think of who'd be capable of supporting one SSD is Kaine. However, he could only maintain one SSD, and Thrawn reduced his influence to almost nothing.

The EU consistently underestimates the industrial and economic scale of the galaxy. KDY's dues to the Corporate Sector amounted to hundreds of SSDs. This stuff is chump change for the movers and shakers.

So Palpatine would have to siphon those resources of the Imperial warmachine. And this I believe I find highly unlikely without Thrawn noticing.

Why not? Thrawn and his contemporaries did not notice Palpatine stealing large portions of the Navy. Why would they notice supply depots being emptied or convoys being diverted or disappeared.

CTD?

Cracken's Threat Dossier. And I believe that Fteik is mistaken; the core components of two minimal Sector Groups were comparable to the Black Fleet.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Empire has black budget projects that build death stars. SSD construction is small potatoes compared to that. The galaxy has something like 12 million inhabited systems according to one source. There is a lot of cream to skim off, even if you only control a fraction of it, and precedent for it being done.

Thrawn was out operating in the Unknown Regions. Why is he going to be intimately familiar with the Imperial Naval budget?

Thrawn also recieved little or no help from the Deep Core warlords and other Imperial factions. That's why he had a limited number of Star Destroyers and a bunch of Dreadnought class cruisers were a prize. He needed the resources.

IIRC the disappearance of parts of the fleet was noticed, but it was assumed they had decided to retreated to the hard to reach worlds of the Deep Core and were waiting to see which way the chips would fall.

[Rogue 9]

The only warlord I can think of who'd be capable of supporting one SSD is Kaine.

Zsinj, or however the hell you spell his name. The Iron Fist.

[PainRack]

I think its far more plausible to argue a ship is poorly crewed/maintained/equipped/battle-ready/etc. than to argue that there's a scale version of it half its length. Tis why I never have supported the "17.6 Executor/8 km Super" theory.

Its neccesary, on many many occasions to explain the apparent battlefield performance of Imperial warships to their rebel counterparts. Ranging from TIE snapping to Imperial frigates with sensors range of half a light-year to etc etc etc.

That's the whole point, idiot! Its not just the Executor; all major warships under the Empire should be using advanced technology like hypermatter. You're the imbecile which suggested that "a ship like Executor" would not have such a drive system, as if that was a condition unique to it.

his intent was to state that a Star Dreadnought, equivalent to a Executor should not be using an anti-matter drive.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its neccesary, on many many occasions to explain the apparent battlefield performance of Imperial warships to their rebel counterparts. Ranging from TIE snapping to Imperial frigates with sensors range of half a light-year to etc etc etc.

It is not necessary for any Executor incident.

his intent was to state that a Star Dreadnought, equivalent to a Executor should not be using an anti-matter drive.

Which is not a cogent argument because no Imperial warship should be using antimatter drive; its not specific to the Executor.

[Thanas]

Zsinj, or however the hell you spell his name. The Iron Fist.

Ah sorry, meant at Thrawn's time.

BTW, I believe Imperial Overlord assesment to be correct.

[Ender]

I think Thrawn may have had a few star dreadnaughts, remember, in Dark Tide 2 Fel pointed out that there were a number of races in the UR that were as strong as the Yevetha were and as it was just shown, they had a decent number of star dreadnaughts. Even if on a ship per ship scale they couldn't match up, numbers would have to even out.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I would imagine he meant the Yevetha in of themselves; its hard to imagine why Thrawn wouldn't have used his dreadnoughts.

[Thanas]

To consolidate his holdings in the UR maybe? The map in VotF showed quite a huge area.

And against the NR he didn't really have to use them. They only had the Lusakya (which was not used by the NR then) and the Home One (which didn't have that much of an impact on any battle).

Thrawn did not draw any ships out of the UR. Maybe that's because they were needed there to expand or to defend his own territory.


EDIT: Fel said:

"A threat to the New Republic like the Yuuzhan Vong has long been anticipated. You remember the devestation of the Yevethan Great purge?
There were things that would have made it look insignificant, save we were there and stopped them."

[Ender]

I would imagine he meant the Yevetha in of themselves; its hard to imagine why Thrawn wouldn't have used his dreadnoughts.

Without their Imperial ships, the Yevetha were no threat; Its hard to imagine why Fel would say something like that.

"A threat to the United States like the Romans has long been anticipated. You remember the devestation of the Amish?
There were things that would have made it look insignificant, save we were there and stopped them."

See my point?

As for leaving the dreadnaughts behind, perhaps he felt there was a greater threat out there that they were needed for and or he didn't want the NR to go looking in the UR wondering "Ok, where in the seven hells did he just pull a couple of star dreadnaughts from?"

[Illuminatus Primus]

But the NRI's discrepency in the Imperial OoB was the Black Fleet; since they didn't even really know about Thrawn's project out there, how would they have traced several dreadnoughts to the UR and thus had them accounted for when they compared their assessments to the Grisnal's computer core?

Moreover, the Chiss officers are well-known for making at times hyperbolic and often self-contradicting claims. For example, Stent at once claims there are threats out in the Unknown Regions that Mara could not dream of, and that would freeze her blood, and then calls her a soft complacent female and remarks that because the greater galaxy is safe behind a "ring of starships" does not mean that that is the case everywhere.

[Ender]

But the NRI's discrepency in the Imperial OoB was the Black Fleet; since they didn't even really know about Thrawn's project out there, how would they have traced several dreadnoughts to the UR and thus had them accounted for when they compared their assessments to the Grisnal's computer core?

Fleet counting didn't start until after Thrawn's campaign, but Thrawn would have no way of knowing that. At the time if they had there would have been a number of discrepencies, Luke hadn't gone to Byss and sent R2 back packed full of intellegence data yet. But if you haven't seen any big star dreadnaughts for a while, and all of a sudden you've got a couple aimed at you, my first thought is going to be "Where the fuck did those come from" and start looking real hard. This could have led them to the UR, which Thrawn would not have wanted.

Moreover, the Chiss officers are well-known for making at times hyperbolic and often self-contradicting claims. For example, Stent at once claims there are threats out in the Unknown Regions that Mara could not dream of, and that would freeze her blood, and then calls her a soft complacent female and remarks that because the greater galaxy is safe behind a "ring of starships" does not mean that that is the case everywhere.

1 person does not constitute well known. One of my co-workers doesn't shower. Does that mean I am a stinky bastard?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fleet counting didn't start until after Thrawn's campaign,

Source?

At the time if they had there would have been a number of discrepencies, Luke hadn't gone to Byss and sent R2 back packed full of intellegence data yet. But if you haven't seen any big star dreadnaughts for a while, and all of a sudden you've got a couple aimed at you, my first thought is going to be "Where the fuck did those come from" and start looking real hard. This could have led them to the UR, which Thrawn would not have wanted.

You're not grasping the point. The Grisnal had the Imperial OoB of the OT. If any dreadnoughts were not accounted for by NRI, they would've shown up in the discrepency with the Grisnal's core. They did not. And its hard to believe that NRI would account for Thrawn's UR dreadnoughts while simultaneously being consistent with your "he wouldn't want them to go looking for them." If NRI didn't notice them, they'd show up in the comparison. If they did notice them, there was no reason to not use them by Thrawn. Therefore, it is not likely they exist.

1 person does not constitute well known. One of my co-workers doesn't shower. Does that mean I am a stinky bastard?

Its not just him. Publius once remarked to me that ADM Parck's raving about threats reminded him of Hitler's speeches where he raves about the "Bolshevik hordes" to the East.

Also, The Dark Empire Sourcebook said it was because Palpatine bleeding Thrawn's fleets dry that he needed the Katana fleet of Dreadnaught-class ships. I find it hard to believe that with that, Palpatine just said, "oh, sure, keep three or four Executors, I don't need them, I'm only, y'know, trying to reconquer the galaxy."

[FTeik]

According to BFC the NRI started to record the where-abouts of every warship after Thrawn´s campaign to prevent something like the Katana-debacle.

What i wonder is, why should the computer-core of the Gnisnal contain anything about the empire´s UR-forces or the OOB of more than one or two sectors?

Concerning Jag Fel´s comment in the UR, i think he plays OxFrog. Blwoing himself up to appear bigger and more dangerous: "We faced threats, that would freeze your blood, so you better don´t challenge us."

[Illuminatus Primus]

Still, the Grisnal's computer core contained THE Imperial Order of Battle. If dreadnoughts were left in the UR, and better yet, not reclaimed by Palpatine, they would have showed up as unaccounted for.

[Thanas]

The Order of Battle found aboard the Grisnal did not mention the Admonitor, or nor did it mention the name of that Victory class destroyer (The one the other captain associated with Thrawn commanded. CanÄt remember his name at the moment).

If it does not mention Admiral Parcks ship, why do you assume it mentions Thrawns other forces?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Order of Battle found aboard the Grisnal did not mention the Admonitor, or nor did it mention the name of that Victory class destroyer (The one the other captain associated with Thrawn commanded. CanÄt remember his name at the moment).

If it does not mention Admiral Parcks ship, why do you assume it mentions Thrawns other forces?

Neither vessel necessarily remained in the Unknown Regions; it has been my position all along that any ships larger than Dreadnaughts were probably recalled with Thrawn to fight the Rebellion or recalled by Palpatine when he returned. The conspicuous absence of these ships and other ships of their class among the Empire of the Hand is notable.

[Thanas]

I disagree. In VoTF Mara states that neither the Admonitor nor Parck were heard of again since he joined Thrawn in exile.
This disproves the notion that the Admonitor was recalled. And Thrawn did not bring any ships with him, as stated in HTTE.

Also, the abscence of those ships is neither indicated nor proven. In SQ, Chak says the Empire of the Hand is fielding Star Destroyers, though the class is not stated.

And regarding the dangers again - we have mention of the dangers both in VOTF, SQ and in teh NJO. Made by three different persons on different occasions.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I disagree. In VoTF Mara states that neither the Admonitor nor Parck were heard of again since he joined Thrawn in exile.

Both possibilities I proposed (Thrawn's return, Palpatine's return) occur at times when Mara had no knowledge within the Imperial heirarchy.

This disproves the notion that the Admonitor was recalled.

Why? She's not NRI and she wasn't the Emperor's Hand anymore.

And Thrawn did not bring any ships with him, as stated in HTTE.

Quote?

And when Palpatine recalled everything, he really meant "everything except the Grand Admiral-who-I-had-disposed-of's personal fleet"?

Also, the abscence of those ships is neither indicated nor proven.

I'd say Palpatine's pan-Empire recall of forces under his banner is would imply the recall of any remaining-loyal forces from Thrawn's little fiefdom.

In SQ, Chak says the Empire of the Hand is fielding Star Destroyers, though the class is not stated.

Quote. And the even so, there's no reason that these could not be homegrown Star Destroyers.

And regarding the dangers again - we have mention of the dangers both in VOTF, SQ and in teh NJO. Made by three different persons on different occasions.

"You think that because you lounge around your quiet worlds behind a ring of starships that the rest of the galaxy is a safe place to live?"

Even from his opinion, the galaxy proper is a quiet, safe place defended by a "ring" of starships. In other words, the galaxy proper is a different ballgame, and it is only the Chiss' relative weakness that make them vulnerable to these threats.

"The ruling families can't stop them; neither can any other power in the region. If our people are to be protected, it's up to us."

The group identified as threatened is only the Chiss. And as for things he lists as weaker, he only says "any other power in the region." His own descriptions say Mara would be scared of the threats (perhaps he means if she was in his position?), but the galaxy proper is well defended and pampered and stronger then the forces in his region.

[Thanas]

Why? She's not NRI and she wasn't the Emperor's Hand anymore.

She plays a dominant role in Karrdes organization. Besides, at the time of Thrawn's banishment, she was in a dominant position inside the Imperial hierarchy. She knew the circumstances of his banishment.

We know that Thrawn didn't bring any ships with him.

HTTE Sourcebook, pg. 53
Now there was just the thrill of glories past and the promise of glories to come, personified in a Grand Admiral Thrawn and carried aboard a shuttle flying out of the unknown and into the Chimaera's Hangar Bays

Thrawn's core fleet did not contain the Admonitor. She is not mentioned in HTTE. Nor is any fleet deployment form the UR mentioned. Neither Parck nor the Admonitor showed up in Operation Shadowhand. It is highly unlikely that Mara/Talon Karrde with their expansive spynet would miss the participation of the ship that carried Thrawn into the UR in the Emperors campaign.

Neither the order of Battle at the Gisnal nor the NRI accounted for the Admonitor. We have no evidence suggesting that.
Mara Jade does not know in VotF where Parck is. If anything had happened to the Admonitor, she would have at least have a suggestion what might have happened to Parck. With the Empires fleet reduced to 200 ISDs, I find it hard to imagine that she would not know whether the Admonitor was
- a part of that fleet
- or destroyed.

If the Admonitor would have been destroyed, she would either have said
"I thought he went down with his ship" or "His ship was destroyed, but he was not on board".

I'd say Palpatine's pan-Empire recall of forces under his banner is would imply the recall of any remaining-loyal forces from Thrawn's little fiefdom.

I remember you mentioning a while ago that Fel and Parck turned traitor. What makes you think the crew of Thrawns flagship did not undergo the same process? With the fierce loyalty Thrawn arose in his crew, there
is no reasons they rather followed his orders than those of some Emperor.

Here is the list of ships Thrawn/Parck/Niriz commanded. Those were never heard of again.

ISD I Adarga –Took severe hull damage in a battle against Zaarin.
ISD I Admonitor - Captain Dagon Niriz.
ISD I Grey Wolf –Flagship of Thrawn during the hunt for Zaarin.
ISD I Resolution –Participated in the hunt for Zaarin.
VSD I Sceltor –One of Thrawns flagships.
VSD I Stalwart –Thrawns first flagship as Vice Admiral.
VSD I Strikefast – Parcks former ship. Found Thrawn in the UR.
ISD I Vanguard – Thrawns second flagship after the Stalwar.


Here is a list of ships which were in Tie fighter, but I am not sure who commanded them.

ISD I Hood
ISD I Impervious
ISD I Punisher
VSD I Ravager
ISD I Render
ISD I Challenge


Any of those could have remained in the UR.

Quote. And the even so, there's no reason that these could not be homegrown Star Destroyers.

Survivors Quest, pg. 79
"And the psychological value, of course," Mara muttered.
"Of course, " Fel agreed, "If you've gotten used to the notion of the Empire of the Hand being unbeatable, you're likely to give up when a Star Destroyer appears over your planet or a squad of stormtroopers blows a hole through your defensive perimeter."

Granted, those could be homegrown Star Destroyers. With the size of the Empire of the Hand there is no reason not to assume that they don't build their own Star Destroyers.

regarding the dangers of the UR - that was already discusse dbefore, I believe. I won't discuss it here, since it most likely will just become a rerun of old arguments. Do you agree?


EDIT: TO add the list of Star Destroyers.

[FTeik]

We shouldn´t forget that the support Thrawn recieved from Palpatine was done in secret. In that case it is questionable, that the ships he got are included in the OOB found aboard Gnisnal.

Another point is, that it is hard to imagine, that from all the thousands of people that crew a single star destroyer, not to mention those of an entire fleet not a single one survived ShadowHand to tell somebody in the IR, that there are quasi-imperial holdings in the UR.

This suggests, that Thrawn´s imperial-originating forces weren´t very large to begin with or that they never left the UR or a combination of both.

I also don´t think, that there were ships bigger than an ISD in the UR. The absence of one or more of a limited number of vessels in comparison to the ubiquitous ISDs would certainly have been noticed in the pre-Endor-times, not to mention, that there exists no resource-base in the UR to maintain such ships (and we shouldn´t forget, that - with a few exceptions - for the powers-that-be the ISD is still the largest imperial ship).

[Ender]

Fleet counting didn't start until after Thrawn's campaign,

Source?

The BFC. I lack the qwuote, but it was started after the Katana fleet bit them in the ass.

You're not grasping the point. The Grisnal had the Imperial OoB of the OT. If any dreadnoughts were not accounted for by NRI, they would've shown up in the discrepency with the Grisnal's core. They did not. And its hard to believe that NRI would account for Thrawn's UR dreadnoughts while simultaneously being consistent with your "he wouldn't want them to go looking for them." If NRI didn't notice them, they'd show up in the comparison. If they did notice them, there was no reason to not use them by Thrawn. Therefore, it is not likely they exist.

Well, there is the very possible 3rd possibility: That he lost the dreadnaughts in action.

Its not just him. Publius once remarked to me that ADM Parck's raving about threats reminded him of Hitler's speeches where he raves about the "Bolshevik hordes" to the East.

Is there any evidence that he and Fel are wrong?

Also, The Dark Empire Sourcebook said it was because Palpatine bleeding Thrawn's fleets dry that he needed the Katana fleet of Dreadnaught-class ships. I find it hard to believe that with that, Palpatine just said, "oh, sure, keep three or four Executors, I don't need them, I'm only, y'know, trying to reconquer the galaxy."

It occurs to me that Thrawn losing the dreadnaugths might explain all of this - There are some moderate to large groups out there (Rebellion sized or so), and in battle Thrawn lost some of his ships. Hardly impossible, while impressive they are not invincible. Those under his command see this and it becomes "Oh, shit they beat Thrawn. They MUST be really dangerous." And then Palpatine can't recall what is free floating ions.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, there is the very possible 3rd possibility: That he lost the dreadnaughts in action.

They still would have shown up in the discrepency. You claiming the NRI knew about Thrawn's dreadnoughts and they got nuked between Thrawn's return and Palpatine's return, so they weren't recalled?

Is there any evidence that he and Fel are wrong?

We have never observed anything, and the Unknown Regions are technologically and developmentally primitive. There simply does not exist the resources to maintain an infrastructure comparable to powers in the galaxy proper. The further out from the core you go, the less high-metallicity worlds you get, by extention less resources and less habitable worlds too.

Besides, the first place that would've been colonized under the GR would be places with resources and good-for-colonization worlds; by now only crap that is not desirable considering its distance and dispersive nature would have gone uncolonized. And I doubt many military juggernaughts could cultivate in such an environment.''

So circumstancially it seems far-fetched, and we know extrinsically its based on a misinterpretation of galactic scale (ie., Zahn had the Republic/Empire occupying a single quadrant of the galaxy, and the UR the rest of the disk; someone's been watching too much Trek).

It occurs to me that Thrawn losing the dreadnaugths might explain all of this - There are some moderate to large groups out there (Rebellion sized or so), and in battle Thrawn lost some of his ships. Hardly impossible, while impressive they are not invincible. Those under his command see this and it becomes "Oh, shit they beat Thrawn. They MUST be really dangerous." And then Palpatine can't recall what is free floating ions.

Very small window for them to exist but not be a discrepency in the Grisnal/NRI comparison. They must be accounted for between Thrawn's return and then destroyed before Palpatine's return to explain what happened to them. Alternatively, you can hold that they were recalled by Palpy and destroyed off-screen. I theorize this was the fate for the Star Destroyers aforementioned Thrawn brought into the UR; they had to be accounted for, and later SDs can be homegrown and thus not part of the Grisnal's records.

Objectively speaking, I don't have a problem with UR races being broadly comparable to the Yevetha. The Yevetha themselves seem to occupy a globular cluster rather close to the disk and inner bulge, hence their strategic usefulness. This makes them roughly comparable to UR groups - we already have the example of the Ssi-ruuvi as being in a globular star cluster. Anyhow, the only thing is, if groups like the UR threats are comparable to the Imperial-fleet-boosted-Yevetha and you have Empire of the Hand and Imperial expeditionary forces before that capable of maintaining superiority....these are the extreme boonies. People don't go there because its not worth the cost to do so. I'm fine with those estimates, but by implication we have yet another reason why the fleets of the galaxy proper are heavily underestimated.

But I'm talking to the guy with the Shep WW2/Dodonna-derived fleet guessestimate and a guy who argues with me for the Marina concept. I'm sure you don't mind one bit.

[PainRack]

Still, the Grisnal's computer core contained THE Imperial Order of Battle. If dreadnoughts were left in the UR, and better yet, not reclaimed by Palpatine, they would have showed up as unaccounted for.

Didn't the computer core contained the OoB for the Core Regions and Black Sword Command forces only?

It occurs to me that Thrawn losing the dreadnaugths might explain all of this - There are some moderate to large groups out there (Rebellion sized or so), and in battle Thrawn lost some of his ships

That is a distinct possibility. The Intimidator was found abandoned, heavily damaged in the Unknown Regions by the NR, so, presumably, either Paelleon dispatched the Intimidator to the UR for an unknown mission, where she faced a threat that rendered her unfit for duty, or she defected to the chiss Empire of the Hand at an unknown time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Still, the Grisnal's computer core contained THE Imperial Order of Battle. If dreadnoughts were left in the UR, and better yet, not reclaimed by Palpatine, they would have showed up as unaccounted for.

Didn't the computer core contained the OoB for the Core Regions and Black Sword Command forces only?

I thought it was the entire Navy.

That is a distinct possibility. The Intimidator was found abandoned, heavily damaged in the Unknown Regions by the NR, so, presumably, either Paelleon dispatched the Intimidator to the UR for an unknown mission, where she faced a threat that rendered her unfit for duty, or she defected to the chiss Empire of the Hand at an unknown time.

Both are unnecessary conjecture. We know the Intimidator and her siblings slave-jumped to Byss. The EC explicitly states the ships which defected to Pelleaon's faction, to the exclusion of Intimidator. Now the Deep Core is adjacent to the Unknown Regions; the galactic buldge is surrounded to the south and north by the halo. The Deep Core was still rife with in-fighting warlords. I'd say the best bet is she was damaged beyond repair fighting off greedy warlords who'd like to claim the mighty warship, particularly since Daala's little coup bled them of most of their military might.