What is exactly so bad with Episode I and II?
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The problem with the criticisms of AOTC and TPM is that they confuse issues of taste with issues of competence in many cases. Now, I'm not going to deny that Lucas could have done a better job with many things, but the fact of the matter is that TPM succeeded at its goal, because it was targeted at kids, not at 20-somethings or even teens. And AOTC's romance was deliberately cheesy. While there are things I would change about both movies if I had the chance, there is still an intrinsic ignorance and/or dishonesty about people who try to paint choices they subjectively disagree with as a sign of incompetence rather than the deliberate choices of someone whose tastes simply differ from their own.
In short, it's one thing to say "I don't like it", but it's another to assume that Lucas set out to achieve B and instead accomplished A, when you have no evidence that he did not intend to accomplish A all along.
In short, it's one thing to say "I don't like it", but it's another to assume that Lucas set out to achieve B and instead accomplished A, when you have no evidence that he did not intend to accomplish A all along.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
A lot of fucking whining here...
"Oh noes! The romance in AOTC was so bad my head exploded! LOL" Get a grip. It's not apologist to analyse the reasons why the romance was stilted between two characters. In actual fact it makes sense that Anakin isn't going to be a fucking casanova after being cloistered in a monkhouse for ten years of his ADOLESCENT LIFE, nor is Padme going to JUMP into his arms after he whispers sweet-nothings in her ears. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it doesn't happen like that in real life. So why should I expect it to happen in a fantasy?
If GL had wrote the two having no problems with their romance I would have called that bad writing.
As to Hayden's 'wooden' acting: uh, bullshit. It's subjective anyway, but if you found him wooden then I didn't. I think a lot of shit get's unfairly thrown onto his shoulders for no good reason. He's actually pretty decent for a young actor, but I suppose people were expecting Shakespeare or something... bottom line is he actually made me empathise with the character, and that's all I really give a shit about.
Natalie's acting didn't perturb me.
AOTC had flaws in the editing department. GL cut out some interesting scenes from the final edit (and oddly, didn't include them on the DVD unlike what he did with TPM), scenes which may have made the stilted romance a lot more tolerable. Not to mention making the pacing of the films a bit better. (I personally find TPM to be really slow.) Threepio's one liners were fucking shit too and totally unnecessary to either the plot OR the character. There was also clumsy dialogue throughout the film, and things I would have changed. But otherwise, it's fne the way it is though could have been better. It's not 'teh suxxorz!' some people think it is.
TPM was shit. That really was something that could have benefited from a different screenwriter, as it appears it's sole purpose was to get the exposition out of the way*. Exposition is hard to write, and it seems like GL can't really write it. I also didn't like how lil' Annie blew up a battleship, but then I prefer to think that Artoo was the one who was really flying that ship.
[EDIT]* In light of DW's post, I should mention that GL stated TPM had this goal. I personally found that he didn't meet the goal in the best possible way.
"Oh noes! The romance in AOTC was so bad my head exploded! LOL" Get a grip. It's not apologist to analyse the reasons why the romance was stilted between two characters. In actual fact it makes sense that Anakin isn't going to be a fucking casanova after being cloistered in a monkhouse for ten years of his ADOLESCENT LIFE, nor is Padme going to JUMP into his arms after he whispers sweet-nothings in her ears. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it doesn't happen like that in real life. So why should I expect it to happen in a fantasy?
If GL had wrote the two having no problems with their romance I would have called that bad writing.
As to Hayden's 'wooden' acting: uh, bullshit. It's subjective anyway, but if you found him wooden then I didn't. I think a lot of shit get's unfairly thrown onto his shoulders for no good reason. He's actually pretty decent for a young actor, but I suppose people were expecting Shakespeare or something... bottom line is he actually made me empathise with the character, and that's all I really give a shit about.
Natalie's acting didn't perturb me.
AOTC had flaws in the editing department. GL cut out some interesting scenes from the final edit (and oddly, didn't include them on the DVD unlike what he did with TPM), scenes which may have made the stilted romance a lot more tolerable. Not to mention making the pacing of the films a bit better. (I personally find TPM to be really slow.) Threepio's one liners were fucking shit too and totally unnecessary to either the plot OR the character. There was also clumsy dialogue throughout the film, and things I would have changed. But otherwise, it's fne the way it is though could have been better. It's not 'teh suxxorz!' some people think it is.
TPM was shit. That really was something that could have benefited from a different screenwriter, as it appears it's sole purpose was to get the exposition out of the way*. Exposition is hard to write, and it seems like GL can't really write it. I also didn't like how lil' Annie blew up a battleship, but then I prefer to think that Artoo was the one who was really flying that ship.
[EDIT]* In light of DW's post, I should mention that GL stated TPM had this goal. I personally found that he didn't meet the goal in the best possible way.
I'm going to answer the OP since it was asking for personal opinion. Personaly, I found EP I to be big disapointment. It lacked a lot of the feel of the OT and large parts of it annoyed me. It was also annoying to have C-3PO created by Anakin. I recognize that these were choices made by the director, but with other movies we can look at choices and say that they were bad, I think we can do the same for Star Wars.
I liked AOTC a lot better but still found Anakin to be grating. It may have been realistic to a degree but it realy smacked of poor writting. Other parts of the moview were a blast though and I love how they're depicting palpatine. I expect very good things from Ep III.
I liked AOTC a lot better but still found Anakin to be grating. It may have been realistic to a degree but it realy smacked of poor writting. Other parts of the moview were a blast though and I love how they're depicting palpatine. I expect very good things from Ep III.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
Post 777: Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post 999: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am
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My feelings about George Lucas with regard to the romance in AOTC are based, at least partially, on the "you're ruining my movie" story...
But the prequels require it. The fact that Anakin takes a wife and produces Luke and Leia is an integral part of Star Wars history. Like it or not, Lucas had to deal with the mushy stuff...after more than 20 years of directing nothing at all.
Well, at least Lucas has an excuse. So why does Michael Bay suck at it?
Okay, fine. He doesn't like the mushy stuff. Well, that explains the lack of romance in his earlier films. THX-1138 wasn't exactly romantic. Neither was American Graffiti. ANH had no love story at all...Lucas didn't appreciate the effect the more intimate moments between Han and Leia, in particular, had on [TESB's] pace. "George didn't like mushy stuff. He thought it slowed the action down," said Kurtz.
But the prequels require it. The fact that Anakin takes a wife and produces Luke and Leia is an integral part of Star Wars history. Like it or not, Lucas had to deal with the mushy stuff...after more than 20 years of directing nothing at all.
Well, at least Lucas has an excuse. So why does Michael Bay suck at it?
Last edited by Galvatron on 2005-03-29 12:47am, edited 1 time in total.
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Why is it annoying that Anakin put C3PO together? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?UCBooties wrote:I'm going to answer the OP since it was asking for personal opinion. Personaly, I found EP I to be big disapointment. It lacked a lot of the feel of the OT and large parts of it annoyed me. It was also annoying to have C-3PO created by Anakin. I recognize that these were choices made by the director, but with other movies we can look at choices and say that they were bad, I think we can do the same for Star Wars.
I liked AOTC a lot better but still found Anakin to be grating. It may have been realistic to a degree but it realy smacked of poor writting. Other parts of the moview were a blast though and I love how they're depicting palpatine. I expect very good things from Ep III.
I think a lot of people were just incredulous that a little boy could put together a droid everyone assumed to be sophisticated.Elfdart wrote:Why is it annoying that Anakin put C3PO together?
Frankly... my nephew could construct a robot. Yeah, nothing special and the kind of 'robot' which is really a toy than anything useful... but then again, a kid can also be a computer whiz. Pair this up with robot making skilz and you get a threepio.
Really this is minor. Having the kid play around in a combat fighter is more obnoxious, having him construct threepio is a "SFW?" reaction. It makes the scene in ESB make sense when Chewie gets given threepio to repair. A note of sentimentalism from the Dark Lord of the Sith? How ELSE can you explain that scene in ESB if Anakin didn't construct Threepio originally?
Not to mention Vader preventing Boba from blasting Chewbacca when he went berserk. I'm talking about Threepio here, not Chewbacca, whom Vader doesn't know from Adam. There's no other reason he'd give a crap about a Rebel Wookie. He didn't want 3P0 damaged.A note of sentimentalism from the Dark Lord of the Sith? How ELSE can you explain that scene in ESB if Anakin didn't construct Threepio originally?
As for people finding it annoying- its probably because it seems contrived. I mean, it seems everyone knows everyone!
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So sophisticated that its components are plug 'n play, apparently. Read the ANH novelization; his arm's control circuits automatically "self-seal" when you physically attach the limb. That's some serious sophistication, but it also makes it easier for a kid to assemble a droid.Stofsk wrote:I think a lot of people were just incredulous that a little boy could put together a droid everyone assumed to be sophisticated.Elfdart wrote:Why is it annoying that Anakin put C3PO together?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
The reason it annoys me is that it seems like a very heavy handed way to insert C 3PO into the prequal trilogy and then tie it to the OT. This is personal taste, and I'll admit, I've got poor taste in a lot of things, but it just seems so contrived, as did a great deal of TPM, and to a lesser extent AOTC.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
Post 777: Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post 999: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am
I was asking a rhetorical question, but thanks anyway folks. If it seems everyone knows everyone, it's because Star Wars isn't about the Galactic Civil War or Clone Wars. It's about a handfull of characters in a narrow group with the wars as a background, just as Gone With the Wind is about a small group of characters and just happens to take place during the Civil War. I can just see some dork saying "Rhett Butler and Ashley Wilkes know each other? BULLSHIT! This is soooooo contrived!"Vympel wrote:Not to mention Vader preventing Boba from blasting Chewbacca when he went berserk. I'm talking about Threepio here, not Chewbacca, whom Vader doesn't know from Adam. There's no other reason he'd give a crap about a Rebel Wookie. He didn't want 3P0 damaged.A note of sentimentalism from the Dark Lord of the Sith? How ELSE can you explain that scene in ESB if Anakin didn't construct Threepio originally?
As for people finding it annoying- its probably because it seems contrived. I mean, it seems everyone knows everyone!
No argument there, I suppose I chose my word poorly. But thanks for the correction, I actually have read the novelisation I just forgot that little tidbit. Of course Threepio is sophisticated, but I guess people just assumed a little boy couldn't put him together. These are probably the same people who don't like kids to begin with. If the boy is bright, and the technology comes with easy assembly as well as clear instructions... I don't see the big fuss over it.Darth Wong wrote:So sophisticated that its components are plug 'n play, apparently. Read the ANH novelization; his arm's control circuits automatically "self-seal" when you physically attach the limb. That's some serious sophistication, but it also makes it easier for a kid to assemble a droid.Stofsk wrote:I think a lot of people were just incredulous that a little boy could put together a droid everyone assumed to be sophisticated.Elfdart wrote:Why is it annoying that Anakin put C3PO together?
Sure it comes off a little contrived UCBooties, but like Elfdart said - these characters SHOULD know each other in some fashion. Especially in the PT, where the purpose was to show how the old characters related to the story. That ought to include the droids as well. And as I said before, it also explains why Vader spared Threepio not once but TWICE. That was weird even without the PT, because the PT at least addresses it. If we just had the OT, we'd be left wondering why the fuck Vader gave a shit about a two-bit droid.
Hmm... slightly off-topic, but I have to wonder sometimes what would be different if TPM had been made in '77, and what changes would have been made to the saga as a whole? But I think that topic has been done before...
The reason it seems contrived is because this is a generational conflict, and while there are perfectly good reasons for surviving charecters from the PT to have ties to the charecters of the OT, in the case of R2-D2 and C3PO, there does not seem to be much cause for their presence in the prequals other than to give a "the gang's all here" feel to it. In ANH, they were presented as having been randomly thrust into the conflict after Leia gave the first astromech she came across a secret mission, and a hapless protocal droid ended up tagging along. Then the prequals are released and we find that these same 2 droids were side players in the preceding generation's adventures as well, meaning we have to bring in the idea of a memory wipe to explain why they had no recolection of such adventures. (Surely 3PO would have reacted differently to the information that his new master was named Skywalker if his memories were intact) So what we are left with feel very orchestrated. Now, there is even grace for this, it could be that when they were memory wiped they were put to serve on an Alderanian diplomatic ship so that if needed they could be used to aid the princess. It could have even been the force that thrust them back into the lives and adventures of the Skywalker family. But again, what was simple random chance in ANH now seems like a heavy handed contrivance because of their inclusion (and how that inclusion was executed) in the PT. That's what I (and perhaps some of these others, though I will let them speak for themselves) find so annoying about that particular part of Episode I.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
Post 777: Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post 999: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am
For the most part that is true, but she does "jump" into his arms, all of a sudden at the arena Padme loved him every since he came back!? WTF, it had angst and ackwardness up until that part, then it was unbelievable. I personally would have waited to later on in the fight for them to have a quick moment or a continuation of that moment. I remember the theatre audience believing the dialogue of the first converstation(also remember he admitted to slaughtering women and children, that's why I believed her hesitation though she admits she feels for him), but at the arena, the theatre I was in just let out groans to chuckles to even my girlfriend nudging me and saying that was really lame.Stofsk wrote:"Oh noes! The romance in AOTC was so bad my head exploded! LOL" Get a grip. It's not apologist to analyse the reasons why the romance was stilted between two characters. In actual fact it makes sense that Anakin isn't going to be a fucking casanova after being cloistered in a monkhouse for ten years of his ADOLESCENT LIFE, nor is Padme going to JUMP into his arms after he whispers sweet-nothings in her ears. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it doesn't happen like that in real life. So why should I expect it to happen in a fantasy?
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Lucas said a long time ago the two droids would be there throughout the entire saga, acting as the "audience" witnessing all the events.other than to give a "the gang's all here" feel to it.
I don´t think he thinks they´re THAT great, just adequate. He said the acting mimicked old 30's and 40's film romances long before AOTC came out and that was it. Whether or not he should have gotten someone else to write their lines or not, is up for debate.Obviously, George Lucas thinks he's doing a romance masterpiece during those scenes.
The problem with having them as an audience is that they're an audience who gets their memories erased between the first and second act.VT-16 wrote:Lucas said a long time ago the two droids would be there throughout the entire saga, acting as the "audience" witnessing all the events.other than to give a "the gang's all here" feel to it.
I don´t think he thinks they´re THAT great, just adequate. He said the acting mimicked old 30's and 40's film romances long before AOTC came out and that was it. Whether or not he should have gotten someone else to write their lines or not, is up for debate.Obviously, George Lucas thinks he's doing a romance masterpiece during those scenes.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
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I remember that. Admittedly, I was expecting something more along the lines of Artoo and Threepio making brief cameos during certain key scenes as servants of the Alderaanian royal court.VT-16 wrote:Lucas said a long time ago the two droids would be there throughout the entire saga, acting as the "audience" witnessing all the events.
Then again, Threepio's appearance in TPM was little more than a cameo anyway so obviously his presence throughout the entire movie wasn't considered a necessity in George's mind either.
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Personally I really enjoyed both movies, but do not really consider them star wars movies. They lack the feel of OT the charisma. Personally I think that Anakin should already have been a star pilot flying a freighter like Owen tells Luke. You do not need to slowly turn him down the dark path, small step by small step infact this destroys everything that Obi-wan says and everything that happens in the OT. Vader is Mr. Hyde, Anakin is Dr. Jykle if this is not the case then how can Obi-wan say they are two differant people and one killed the other? If Anakin is moved into the dark side one little step at a time it is more of an outworking of his personality.
The droids are a major problem, its the whole memory wipe thing. GL could have had them owned by the Alderaanian government and they go with Padme who is Bails sister her ship comes under attack while she is going to meet with the Jedi Obi-wan and Anakin in his freighter uses his tremedous Piloting(not driving which is what racing pods is) skills to drive off the pirates or whoever flys her down to the planet since her ship is ruined. It would be alot like ESB with Han taking Leia. They meet Jedi Obi-wan and he senses Anakins potential and offers to train Anakin. The whole bear clan thing is stupid in my opinion, since we never see or hear of anything like that. And Obi-wan and Yoda never really use the word aprentice all that much, instead Obi-wan uses the word pupil. The Jedi seemed (atleast to me) to be much looser instead of aprentices indentured to one Jedi for years they were pupils who studied under different masters. Remember that while the are Jedi Knights they are Knights second and Jedi first the Jedi are seekers of knowledge and truth one does not seek by being apprenticed for aprenitces are forced to learn they are rather pupils who are exploring different aspects of the force.
The used feel of the Star Wars universe was lacking, even though we mostly saw sleek new ships they did not have they anchient used feel of Star Wars technology. Remember we are not going from more advanced tech to less advanced, rather we are going from a "nobler time" to a less noble time. Star Destroyers are angular and not sleekly butiful but they are some of the largest warships and the most efective warships, "marvels of enginering" as the SW:ICS puts it. In TPM we see larger ships,equiped with droid fighters that are amazingly small yet very potent. Micro enginering on a scale not seen in the OT. The whole PT seems to be a newer more advanced society moving backwards towards barbarism and primtiveness rather then less advanced and moving forward to new feats of science and technology.
I do not see why Vader has to be protecting 3PO. He does not want to waste these resources, they are heros of the rebellion with useful information to be extracted later. Also he can use them against young Skywalker, in the old do what I tell you or I will hurt your friends infront of your eyes.
Why should the luange be stilted when Leia who grew up in the Alderanian aristocracie, who were quite the maintainers of everything Republic, why does she not talk with the same stilted speach patterns?
The droids are a major problem, its the whole memory wipe thing. GL could have had them owned by the Alderaanian government and they go with Padme who is Bails sister her ship comes under attack while she is going to meet with the Jedi Obi-wan and Anakin in his freighter uses his tremedous Piloting(not driving which is what racing pods is) skills to drive off the pirates or whoever flys her down to the planet since her ship is ruined. It would be alot like ESB with Han taking Leia. They meet Jedi Obi-wan and he senses Anakins potential and offers to train Anakin. The whole bear clan thing is stupid in my opinion, since we never see or hear of anything like that. And Obi-wan and Yoda never really use the word aprentice all that much, instead Obi-wan uses the word pupil. The Jedi seemed (atleast to me) to be much looser instead of aprentices indentured to one Jedi for years they were pupils who studied under different masters. Remember that while the are Jedi Knights they are Knights second and Jedi first the Jedi are seekers of knowledge and truth one does not seek by being apprenticed for aprenitces are forced to learn they are rather pupils who are exploring different aspects of the force.
The used feel of the Star Wars universe was lacking, even though we mostly saw sleek new ships they did not have they anchient used feel of Star Wars technology. Remember we are not going from more advanced tech to less advanced, rather we are going from a "nobler time" to a less noble time. Star Destroyers are angular and not sleekly butiful but they are some of the largest warships and the most efective warships, "marvels of enginering" as the SW:ICS puts it. In TPM we see larger ships,equiped with droid fighters that are amazingly small yet very potent. Micro enginering on a scale not seen in the OT. The whole PT seems to be a newer more advanced society moving backwards towards barbarism and primtiveness rather then less advanced and moving forward to new feats of science and technology.
I do not see why Vader has to be protecting 3PO. He does not want to waste these resources, they are heros of the rebellion with useful information to be extracted later. Also he can use them against young Skywalker, in the old do what I tell you or I will hurt your friends infront of your eyes.
Why should the luange be stilted when Leia who grew up in the Alderanian aristocracie, who were quite the maintainers of everything Republic, why does she not talk with the same stilted speach patterns?
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Then my annoyance remains but I will concede by lack of information.
As stated, I have felt that each movie has improved, and while they have yet to captivate me the way the OT did, I do have high hopes for EP III.
As stated, I have felt that each movie has improved, and while they have yet to captivate me the way the OT did, I do have high hopes for EP III.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
Post 777: Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post 999: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but I've seen teenage guys who act like they just slipped off the back of a truck when they are trying to attract girls, and teenage girls who think it's romantic.Slartibartfast wrote:The problem is not that Anakin's romantic advances are stupid and awkward, the problem is that they fucking work! Obviously, George Lucas thinks he's doing a romance masterpiece during those scenes.
I have no trouble accepting the sometimes eye-rollingly-silly behaviour of many of the characters in the prequels, because I don't expect cloistered kids and monks to be shining pillars of social wisdom. So although Padme's reaction seems odd to a mature adult, it's par for the course as far as I'm concerned with the decision-making of teens. In other words, whether Lucas intended it to appear that way or not, it works on the level it's intended to.
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Lagmonster as a teen who grew up in a very sheltered home I still cannot belive that Padme fell for Anakin, unless it was on her head. Maybe that is because I am a guy and see nothing special about Anakin maybe a girl would have a different view, but I sincerly hope not!!
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It would be a stoke of genius if ROTS uncovered that anakin had been using the force to romance padme all along.
Then the bad acting would be right on...also it would perhaps be anakins first step towards the dark side.
Then the bad acting would be right on...also it would perhaps be anakins first step towards the dark side.
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Some questionable choices in AOTC editing and composition didn't help. In the novel, it's made rather clear that Padme is surrounded by men who never show her even the slightest inkling of romantic interest, presumably because it is "not their place". As a result, she's horny as hell, and would pretty much fall for the first reasonably attractive guy with the balls to ask her out, no matter how clumsily he does it.Kartr_Kana wrote:Lagmonster as a teen who grew up in a very sheltered home I still cannot belive that Padme fell for Anakin, unless it was on her head. Maybe that is because I am a guy and see nothing special about Anakin maybe a girl would have a different view, but I sincerly hope not!!
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html