Clone Wars Chapter 21 to 25, revelations on Jedi vs Droid

[NecronLord]

SoD isnt a cop out. Rationalizing something to help make Vader look uber-bad ass in a situation where, clearly, he wasnt is a cop out. More so it's wanking, and silly.

PT fighting is not badass. It looks good, but it is stupid, and would get the user killed in reality. OT jedi fighting is comparatively badass because it is realistic, and does not open darth vader up for half a dozen lethal counters every time he strikes.

[Rommie2006]

I know! I'm losing an argument so I'll act like the people I'm arguing with don't know what they're talking about! It's not like they own the DVDs, do a lot of debating on this topic, or read the books or anything. It's not like McC even re-watched AOTC just last night.

Or is it? Hmm, maybe I'm fucked...

You are doing great as a n00b and a troll. Keep it up and you'll be VI'ed or banned within a month or so, if not less.

Whatever.

For the record, Dooku was NOT holding his ground against bouncing Yoda in FACT he WAS LOSING TO YODA FAST. If you read the official script, it clearly states that Dooku was quickly losing the battle with Yoda and thus he had to flee. Now since on film evidence did not contract this, Yoda was owning Dooku!

Yes, and do you know why? Because Yoda was exerting a fuckton of Force energy to attack Dooku rapidly and repeatedly from unpredictable vectors. Dooku was working fiercely to predict where Yoda was coming from. This is far different than flashy saber moves. It was because Yoda was moving so fucking fast and so fucking randomly that Dooku was getting tired out by keeping up with him.

What you describe above. Doesnt that constitute to the meaning of FLASHY saber moves?

And whatever you guys have on flashy saber techniques is irrelevant. Jedi like Yoda, QuiGon, ObiWan(in ep1 only) use Form 4 saber technique, and form 4 is SUPPOSED to be flashy. It uses a combination of acrobatics maneuvers and saber moves to fight a duel. There is NOTHING wrong with flashy maneuvers. It's only a matter of STYLE. Dooku wasnt flashy cos he was using Form 2.

Fine. You learn Form 4 saber fighting and I'll go learn Form 2, and we'll see who gets owned. No, really.

Fine. Explain why Form 2 dooku got his butt kicked by Form 4 Yoda.

So in reality Luke's training was far from complete. Why you think he seek out Jedi knowledge from ancient sites and holocrons in EU? Why do you think he has been challenged time and time again as being a lousy/fake Jedi knight/master by both HIMSELF, HIS STUDENTS and HIS ENEMY (i.e. everyone)

You're being a retard now. No one said Luke's overall Jedi training was complete. Necron and I are saying that his martial skills that he needs to fight the Emperor and Vader were deemed complete. This is like saying, "Oh, well, clearly Yoda and Mace Windu have nothing left to learn." If you seriously think once you get a diploma, you're done learning, then you're going to end up a pretty dumb piece of shit. Hey look, you're well on your way

Ok fine. I admit PERHAPS his "theory" part of being a Jedi would be complete. But his martial part of being a Jedi is far from complete.

[Karza]

Dark Empire Palpy is Wankatine. Wankatine is decanonised by Lucas' quotes on RotS, specifically, that the full limit of Palpatine's power is shown. No gigaton range force storms appear, thus, either only the clone has them, or wankatine is completely non canon. Either way, they have no bearing on the real Palpatine.

God I hate Wankatine.

Oh. Well, we live and learn.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Yoda was definately owning Dooku. Dooku knew it and pulled that dirty trick, trying to kill the unarmed Obi and Anakin too, then ran like a bitch as soon as Yoda turned his back.

He was 'holding off' Yoda like i could 'hold off' a bear.

[Rommie2006]

Anakin uses a combination of Form III and Form IV technique in PT. Vader supposedly uses Form V. There is NO evidence to suggest that one form is better than another. Perhaps with the exception of Form II(Dooku) and form 7(Mace). So perhaps he HAD to switch to Form V technique as he could not use Form III/IV due to his acute stiffness??

Or, you know, what Necron said: he got stronger due to augmented strength and chose a new form more suited to him.

"Making conclusions based on incomplete facts is fun!"

Well perhaps you should have mentioned it earlier in the discussion. I agree that Vader could have changed style to suit his increased strength(and maybe to compensate for his decreased agility). But as you see in my original post is WHY didnt vader have increased agility too?

I see. Your skills are complete. What skills? Your lightsaber building skills? LOL.

Yes, asshat, because Vader's talking about Luke's lightsaber specifically Since Luke has constructed a new lightsaber, which ostensibly somehow involves the Force, Luke has demonstrated a sufficient level of skill to Vader in general that Vader can sense his skills are complete. Jesus.

Building a lightsaber has nothing to do with Luke's lightsaber martial skills mastery.

Oh please a quote from the movie isnt gonna get you anywhere. If you just use your eyes to observe and your head to think, you will see the great disparity between PT jedi and OT jedi.

Yeah, 'cause when canon disagrees with you, you can just throw it out, right? I mean, it's not like quotes from the movies mean anything. They're not G-level canon and depictions of 'the truth' of the SW universe or anything.

You're just digging yourself deeper and deeper.

Whtever. And isolated quote from canon isnt gonna get you anywhere either. You have to really learn to see the movie as a WHOLE and not in pieces.

[18-Till-I-Die]

That stuff about 'Wankatine' is also misleading.

Palpy grew vastly in knowledge of the Dark Side and power between his 'death' and his reemergence. No wanking there, just experience.

[Shroom Man 777]

Ooooh! Dooku ran away from Yoda, that obviously means all ever flashy PT Jedi could pwn him and his stiff-ass teknique! Oh wait...

[McC]

What you describe above. Doesnt that constitute to the meaning of FLASHY saber moves?

*sigh* Apparently I will have to explain this piecewise.

Twirling around your lightsaber = flashy.
Spinning around = flashy.
Launching attacks so quickly that you and your lightsaber become a blur of motion so fast as to be untrackable with the human eye = Yoda.

Get it?

Fine. Explain why Form 2 dooku got his butt kicked by Form 4 Yoda.

The whole thing about Yoda being the greatest saber-fighter ever kind of flew over your head there, didn't it? It's okay. You're a moron, so it's understandable.

Ok fine. I admit PERHAPS his "theory" part of being a Jedi would be complete. But his martial part of being a Jedi is far from complete.

*sigh* No, dipshit, the other way around. He had all the martial trainig he needed. It was the complex high-theory stuff he was missing. Luke didn't know about the living/unifying Force debate that the council had. Luke didn't know about midichlorians and their roll in things. Luke didn't know the theory, but did know the fighting.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ooooh! Dooku ran away from Yoda, that obviously means all ever flashy PT Jedi could pwn him and his stiff-ass teknique! Oh wait...

I never said that! I said YODA owned his ass, he obviously kicked the hell out of Obi and Anakin. Dont misquote.

[Rommie2006]

Ooooh! Dooku ran away from Yoda, that obviously means all ever flashy PT Jedi could pwn him and his stiff-ass teknique! Oh wait...

I never said that. Flashy QuiGon and ObiWan(in ep1) would be owned by Dooku. Flashy Yoda on the other hand did not. My pt is that flashy is not equals to bad.

[McC]

Well perhaps you should have mentioned it earlier in the discussion. I agree that Vader could have changed style to suit his increased strength(and maybe to compensate for his decreased agility). But as you see in my original post is WHY didnt vader have increased agility too?

For fuck's sake, you're basing your entire argument on the idea that what we see is the maximum extent of Vader's ability. This is like saying that the Star Destroyer vaping an asteroid in one shot is an upper limit on the gun. It's retarded. Stop it.

Building a lightsaber has nothing to do with Luke's lightsaber martial skills mastery.

Right, because he's talking specifically about the lightsaber, and couldn't possibly be referring to his general assessment of Luke as a whole.

Whtever. And isolated quote from canon isnt gonna get you anywhere either. You have to really learn to see the movie as a WHOLE and not in pieces.

An isolated quote that happens to be rather important. "I'm going to ignore the quote in favor of my delusion of the 'big picture' and if you don't like it you're clearly stupid." Good thing canon doesn't work that way and good thing SoD doesn't work that way.

You lose.

[McC]

I never said that. Flashy QuiGon and ObiWan(in ep1) would be owned by Dooku. Flashy Yoda on the other hand did not. My pt is that flashy is not equals to bad.

Flashy almost always equals bad. Yoda wasn't being flashy, he was being blindingly fast. That was the point. Overwhelm Dooku. It just ended up being flashy because of how fast it was.

[Karza]

Dark Empire Palpy is Wankatine. Wankatine is decanonised by Lucas' quotes on RotS, specifically, that the full limit of Palpatine's power is shown. No gigaton range force storms appear, thus, either only the clone has them, or wankatine is completely non canon. Either way, they have no bearing on the real Palpatine.

God I hate Wankatine.

Oh. Well, we live and learn.

Wait. Does that decanonise the fact that Luke lost to Palpatine in DE? I mean, that's just something that happened, it doesn't require obscene level of power on Palpatine's side. You could blame Byss' oppressive aura (or whatever) for nerfing Luke on that occasion.

EDIT: I mean, will that duel in DE be totally decanonised, or just Palpatine's force storms and other uber feats?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Palpatine was more experienced and powerful when he reemegered. He'd spent years doing his Sith bookworm thing, and feeding off Byss's dark energy.

[Rommie2006]

What you describe above. Doesnt that constitute to the meaning of FLASHY saber moves?

*sigh* Apparently I will have to explain this piecewise.

Twirling around your lightsaber = flashy.
Spinning around = flashy.
Launching attacks so quickly that you and your lightsaber become a blur of motion so fast as to be untrackable with the human eye = Yoda.

Get it?

Fine. Got It. Looks like we have a difference in opinion of what is flashy. But for the record, I think only *PADAWAN* Obi-Wan was doing those flashy moves along with *APPRENTICE* Maul. I dont think Master QuiGon was doing flashy moves right? (correct me if I am wrong), So please dont generalise PT knights as flashy jedi.

Fine. Explain why Form 2 dooku got his butt kicked by Form 4 Yoda.

The whole thing about Yoda being the greatest saber-fighter ever kind of flew over your head there, didn't it? It's okay. You're a moron, so it's understandable.

No it did not flew over my head. I'm just trying to point out that there is no 1 UBER style. Form 2 may be great, but it doesnt mean that a Form 2 Jedi would win every single duel.

Ok fine. I admit PERHAPS his "theory" part of being a Jedi would be complete. But his martial part of being a Jedi is far from complete.

*sigh* No, dipshit, the other way around. He had all the martial trainig he needed. It was the complex high-theory stuff he was missing. Luke didn't know about the living/unifying Force debate that the council had. Luke didn't know about midichlorians and their roll in things. Luke didn't know the theory, but did know the fighting.

Ok. Prove it. Where in the blue hell did Luke learn his lightsaber moves from? Luke is nowhere half as fast as your typical Old Republic Jedi.

[Shroom Man 777]

Ooooh! Dooku ran away from Yoda, that obviously means all ever flashy PT Jedi could pwn him and his stiff-ass teknique! Oh wait...

I never said that. Flashy QuiGon and ObiWan(in ep1) would be owned by Dooku. Flashy Yoda on the other hand did not. My pt is that flashy is not equals to bad.

Have a T-800 (a Terminator, if you're not a fan of the series) fight an expert fencer to the death and program the T-800 to jump around like a leprechaun and wave the sword like he was exorcising the air of evil spirits.

Who do you think would win?

A fencer fights against this anime wanker who's hair is all blue and spiked up. The fencer is wearing his drab fencing outfit. This anime wanker is wearing a cardboard suit that makes him look like a gundam. The wanker is waving his sword around like as if his brain's lost control of his musculatory system and he's having a standing epileptic seizure.

Who do you think would win?

Same match, both of them in fencing outfits.

Who do you think would win?

Do you see my point?

[Rommie2006]

OK OK. This is getting nowhere.
I didnt start this thread to discuss on Flashy Jedi vs Non-Flashy Jedi, Anakin vs Vader, PT Jedi vs OT Jedi or anything along this line.

I think to conclusively end the discussion on the topic we all have side-tracked too we shall have to wait for ROTS, for the great Anakin vs ObiWan, and god knows how many other Jedi vs Jedi duels before analysing any further?

[McC]

OK OK. This is getting nowhere.
I didnt start this thread to discuss on Flashy Jedi vs Non-Flashy Jedi, Anakin vs Vader, PT Jedi vs OT Jedi or anything along this line.

I think to conclusively end the discussion on the topic we all have side-tracked too we shall have to wait for ROTS, for the great Anakin vs ObiWan, and god knows how many other Jedi vs Jedi duels before analysing any further?

Concession accepted.

[Shroom Man 777]

I WIN!

EDIT:

So, Romie, who do you think would win? The T-800 or the fencer?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Isnt the T-800 annalogy flaws cause a Terminator is far more durable and shit? I mean what normal human could hurt an armored fighting robot with superhuman strength, with just a sword? Realistically the fencer would still get owned, unless we're talking some kind of super dude with incredible strength who can crush hardened alloys.

[SylasGaunt]

Yes. PT jedi use nonsensical moves - some of which come from tennis, of all places - which are of no practical use in a sword fight. OT jedi use real sword fighting techniques (barring Luke's last saber fighting ,which is basically using the thing as a club).

I think it was the AOTC novelization, maybe someone could check, but the Form II that Dooku uses is supposed to be optimized for taking on an opponent with a lightsaber, while the other forms tend to lean more toward taking on opponents with blasters right? That could explain some of the PT saber silliness.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Yes. PT jedi use nonsensical moves - some of which come from tennis, of all places - which are of no practical use in a sword fight. OT jedi use real sword fighting techniques (barring Luke's last saber fighting ,which is basically using the thing as a club).

I think it was the AOTC novelization, maybe someone could check, but the Form II that Dooku uses is supposed to be optimized for taking on an opponent with a lightsaber, while the other forms tend to lean more toward taking on opponents with blasters right?

Yes i think i read that somewhere too. Makes sense, since the Jedi hadnt faced Sith with lightsabers and Force powers in years and blasters were far more common. That explains why Dooku handed Obi and Anakin their asses prety well too.

[Shroom Man 777]

@ Terminator anal-ogy.

You think I was entirely serious with that?

Anyway, my point was that this really capable guy with superior technique is fighting this other guy who's totally superior than him in so many ways and in so many levels that technique doesn't really matter anymore. Yoda can do more somersaults than Dooku. Yoda could crush more balls than Dooku, and faster. Yoda could hit Dooku easily, Dooku would have had to bend down, which could break his hip. Yoda could jump around like a pixie-goblin with springs for feet, Dooku couldn't. With all of these, if Yoda tried really hard, he could've killed Dooku with a pencil, screw technikues.

[18-Till-I-Die]

@ Terminator anal-ogy.

You think I was entirely serious with that?

Anyway, my point was that this really capable guy with superior technique is fighting this other guy who's totally superior than him in so many ways and in so many levels that technique doesn't really matter anymore. Yoda can do more somersaults than Dooku. Yoda could crush more balls than Dooku, and faster. Yoda could hit Dooku easily, Dooku would have had to bend down, which could break his hip. Yoda could jump around like a pixie-goblin with springs for feet, Dooku couldn't. With all of these, if Yoda tried really hard, he could've killed Dooku with a pencil, screw technikues.

Ah i see, agreed.

[Shroom Man 777]

I win again!