So, got the ROTS ICS, hope this hasnt been posted already.

[FTeik]

There is a scene in the AOTC-novel, where Jango and Boba Fett discover Obi-Wans fighter on Kamino and have a discussion about the varying performances of pilots. Basically it was about the droid-assistance a Jedi needs in comparison to an "ordinary" human and it was suggested, that Jango Fett would compare more to a Jedi, than a human pilot in that regard.

Now, if you consider, that Jango was the template for the clones and if you consider the high performance-standards of the Kaminoans suggested by HardContact, it should be possible for the Jedi-Interceptor to be piloted by clones. Basically the Jedi-Interceptor resembles the TIE/ln, but contrary to that it has a life-support-system. Take this out for better sensors and - voila. You also have to remember, that not every Jedi is a pilot like Obi-Wan or Anakin Skywalker.

By putting clones in fighters associated with Jedi you also play psychological warfare against the Seperatists.

[His Divine Shadow]

There is a scene in the AOTC-novel, where Jango and Boba Fett discover Obi-Wans fighter on Kamino and have a discussion about the varying performances of pilots. Basically it was about the droid-assistance a Jedi needs in comparison to an "ordinary" human and it was suggested, that Jango Fett would compare more to a Jedi, than a human pilot in that regard.

What droid assistance? Elaborate.

[SylasGaunt]

IIRC it was something about the Aethersprite having a tendency to blow it's own nose off without a droid running the targeting, but a Jedi could use a droid dedicated more to navigation since he didn't have to worry about that.. or was it the other way around?

[Alexus]

[Darkstar]It's obvious the heavy 'turbo'laser uses the turbolaser effect. Judging from what my mom told me, the actual yield is a mere 12 kilotons.[/Darkstar]

[Vympel]

It's on the canon database on www.stardestroyer.net. In short, an ordinary pilot would require the droid to assist in weapons, but a Jedi didn't, he got a navigation droid instead.

[FTeik]

The scene in question:

AOTC novelization p.202-203

"And is this a common droid for this type of starfighter?"

"No," Boba answered without hesitation. "A Delta-7 pilot would usually use an Arthree-Dee [R3-D]. It's better at keeping the guns targeted, and the fighter is so maneuverable that handling the laser cannons is tricky. I read that some pilots wind up shooting their own nose cones off in this fighter! They do a snap-roll, coming out over and around, but they haven't compensated the manual swivel ..." ...

"Suppose the pilot didn't need the extra gunnery skills of an Arthree-Dee?" he asked.

Boba looked at him curiously, as if he didn't understand.

"Would the Arfour-Pea [R4-P] then be a better choice?"

"Yes", came the halting response.

"And what pilot wouldn't need the extra droid gunnery skills?"

Boba stared blankly, but then a smile spread along his face. "You!" he blurted, seeming quite pleased with himself.

Jango took the compliment with an appreciative smile- and it was true enough. Jango could wheel any fighter, and if he ever had the opportunity to fly in a Delta-7, he'd likely choose an R4-P over the R3-D. But that wasn't what he had in mind right now, for he knew of one other type of pilot, pilots with heightened senses, who would similarly choose the better-nav, but less weapon-oriented droid.

Jango Fett looked back up at the sky, wondering if a host of Jedi were about to descend upon Tipoca City.

[Connor MacLeod]

There is a scene in the AOTC-novel, where Jango and Boba Fett discover Obi-Wans fighter on Kamino and have a discussion about the varying performances of pilots. Basically it was about the droid-assistance a Jedi needs in comparison to an "ordinary" human and it was suggested, that Jango Fett would compare more to a Jedi, than a human pilot in that regard.

Now, if you consider, that Jango was the template for the clones and if you consider the high performance-standards of the Kaminoans suggested by HardContact, it should be possible for the Jedi-Interceptor to be piloted by clones. Basically the Jedi-Interceptor resembles the TIE/ln, but contrary to that it has a life-support-system. Take this out for better sensors and - voila. You also have to remember, that not every Jedi is a pilot like Obi-Wan or Anakin Skywalker.

By putting clones in fighters associated with Jedi you also play psychological warfare against the Seperatists.

The only problem with this is that the ROTS Jedi airspeed- err I mean interceptor is that this thing is even tinier than the Delta-7. Did you even look at it's cross section? It has no listing for sensors (or jammers) including targeting computers, no shield generators (apparently not even navigational deflectors, it would seem), and lacks much of the "normal" flight control equipment (the "heavy" stuff.) The Delta-7 still (to my memory) had sensors and shields and all that.

This is in essence a cut down, bare-bones ship that requires someone with the skills and capabilities of a Jedi to pilot (with their precognitive and telekinetic skills, they don't need sensors or shields as much.)

Could a Clone pilot fly one? Probably. But even doing so he would be severly hampered in comparison to other fighters: there would be limits as to how fast he could travel at if he does indeed have no nav shields, and without targeting sensors (or regular sensors!) he's largely limited to shooting at what he can see. And not having ANY sort of ECM is definitely going to be a disadvantage too.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to pilot one.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*Shrugs* It works that way too I suppose. I'm not going to comment on what Curtis' intent was, but I don't see any reason why he would disagree with that interpretation. (not that its *that* problematical either way, given the absencec of Rate of Fire. Even at 1 TT per barrel per "bolt", you're talking only about some 2e23 watts of sustained firepower.. the IH would not likely be able to scratch the shields of a Venator unless you at least quadrupled the above ROF. On the other hand, one could argue thats why the IH has so many protorp/projectile launchers, or why the separatists might be using "particle" weapons.)

Anyhow, I suppose if you wanted to look at it that way, the *actual* firepower of the ships would probably be along the lines of how its derived for the Venator (or others.) That is, if the Separatist vessels are dedicated warships (which is open to debate.)

Well the IH is a carrier-modification of the Providence-class. Presumably there was reactor and engine and fuel mechanisms lost which otherwise could have been fed directly to the main battery. Not to mention loss of hull for the hangar bay might also have previously ensconced weapons emplacements. Since this is not a standard model its really difficult to tell, but considering the Venator's guns' description as being capable of feeding from the main reactor directly, some weapons emplacements may not have necessarily yields limited to what is listed, but limited by the power that the main reactor can feed them.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't get me wrong, I love the huge fighter complement of the Venator. All of the Venator's features dedicated towards its carrier role wouldn't make sense if it didn't carry a huge amount of fighters, and I'm sick of the minimalistic fighter complements that seem to be based on current day ~300 meter-long aircraft carriers. However, all of these facts about the Eta-2 just don't fit together. I've talked to some minimalist-minded fans, and they've already brought up the above mentioned arguments. Some of them believe that Saxton really intended to say 192 V-wings OR 192 Eta-2s.

I've been over this before. the Venator is designed as a frigging carrier combined with combat warship duties (what kind of warship, I'll leave up to personal preference and opinion.) Its DESIGNED to carry a huge number of fighters, but those cavernous bays (and that split-open topside launch thingy) also carry alot of limitations. The Venator probably lacks alot of the internal structural reinforcecment you woudl expect for the ISD (which along with its greater mass and presumably heavier armor makes it more durable.) It also has only 8 HTL, 50 some poitn defense lasers, and 2 medium TLs (all of which are generally smaller than what we might expect on an ISD.) An ISD has (in addition to its heavy turrets and point defense guns) at several other "medium" guns (recall that we've seen bolts of multiple sizes coming from the ship, including the trenches, like in ANH.. probably teh "dozens" of heavy weapons mentioned in the novelization) as well as ion cannons.

The Venator's reactor bulb does not protrude out the way the ISD's does, so the ISD also has much greater power generation (and hencec greater firepower). It also has about 4-5 times the crew of the Venator (more gorund troops, etc.) and presumably a greater hyperdrive range/endurance. Its certainly designed for operating for greater lengths of time than a Venator is.

When you combine this with the fact that fighters don't really play a HUGE role in offensive combat, the reduction in fighter capacity in the ISD makes more sense. (Of course, recall the ISD also that TIEs are generally larger than the prequel Micro fighters, and the blastboat/gunboats its also carries in addition to TIEs are also larger than the ARC-170's.)

I admit that when I first saw the stats I was surprised too, but after thinking about it some I don't really see much of a problem with it.

Of course the Data File is set in stone canon unless their is definate proof that it's wrong. However, I'm starting to wonder whether the minimalists are right on this issue, and if there was a typo or editing error in the Data File. What do you guys think? Can anyone find out what Saxton truly meant to say? I would love it if there was some quote out there about how non-Jedi pilots can also fly this thing.

Given the "modifications" to this one compared to Curtis' prior works (and the different editor - an editor whom I blame for the current state of this book - whcih I have mentioned before) its quite possible there are errors that Curtis did nto intend. But is this one? Hard to say without knowing author's intent.

[Vympel]

The only problem with this is that the ROTS Jedi airspeed- err I mean interceptor is that this thing is even tinier than the Delta-7. Did you even look at it's cross section? It has no listing for sensors (or jammers) including targeting computers, no shield generators (apparently not even navigational deflectors, it would seem), and lacks much of the "normal" flight control equipment (the "heavy" stuff.) The Delta-7 still (to my memory) had sensors and shields and all that.

This is in essence a cut down, bare-bones ship that requires someone with the skills and capabilities of a Jedi to pilot (with their precognitive and telekinetic skills, they don't need sensors or shields as much.)

Could a Clone pilot fly one? Probably. But even doing so he would be severly hampered in comparison to other fighters: there would be limits as to how fast he could travel at if he does indeed have no nav shields, and without targeting sensors (or regular sensors!) he's largely limited to shooting at what he can see. And not having ANY sort of ECM is definitely going to be a disadvantage too.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to pilot one.

The Eta-2 most assuredly has sensors ... its the astromech droid sitting next to the pilot

There are numerous novelization references as well as in the illustrated screenplay of Anakin requesting R2 to lock on, requesting R2 to scan for the beacon, etc etc. I didn't put most of them in unfortunately, though I might go over it again now.

That said, there's a Before the Helmet picture of a Vader's TIE targeting display-style visual from Anakin's cockpit, showing the Invisible Hand. I don't know if that was R2's work but yeah, the Eta-2 is not without sensors of any kind.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Eta-2 most assuredly has sensors ... its the astromech droid sitting next to the pilot

There are numerous novelization references as well as in the illustrated screenplay of Anakin requesting R2 to lock on, requesting R2 to scan for the beacon, etc etc. I didn't put most of them in unfortunately, though I might go over it again now.

That said, there's a Before the Helmet picture of a Vader's TIE targeting display-style visual from Anakin's cockpit, showing the Invisible Hand. I don't know if that was R2's work but yeah, the Eta-2 is not without sensors of any kind.

Its worth noting that also according to the novelization, R2 is a Naboo-modified astromech (modifications which apparently also make him top-of-the-line and quite unique/superior to "normal" astromechs, which must be taken into account.)

Regardless, yes the astromech can compensate for the lack of sensors to some degree, but I doubt you would gain much advantage from one unless it was a specialized one (like the ones specialized for navigation or targeting.) if even then (after all, if a droid could match the abilities of a standard sensor array on a fighter, why bother installing them in the first place?) And that's also not accounting for the fact that other craft (like the ARC-170 AND V-wing) have both sensors AND astromechs)

You might also try arguing that as an "interceptor" its also designed to operate close to warships (or with EW craft around), and it might rely more heavily on them for long range scanning (or be directed by such craft) in "short range" tasks. Perhaps with one of those astromechs dedicated to targeting, it *might* work adequately as an offensive interceptor. However, I *still* would not want to fly one as a Jedi.

And there is still the issue of shields, remember. And the stripped-down flight stuff.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well the IH is a carrier-modification of the Providence-class. Presumably there was reactor and engine and fuel mechanisms lost which otherwise could have been fed directly to the main battery.

Since the ICS does say that the hangars are a design modification, so yes that's possible (which is presumably why you brought it up.)

Not to mention loss of hull for the hangar bay might also have previously ensconced weapons emplacements. Since this is not a standard model its really difficult to tell, but considering the Venator's guns' description as being capable of feeding from the main reactor directly, some weapons emplacements may not have necessarily yields limited to what is listed, but limited by the power that the main reactor can feed them.

Possibly. The ICS says nothing about that, but it may never have been considered for entry. But if true, it would also tend to suggest its not a "true" warship, since such weapons would have to be properly mounted and braced to be effective (especially at the power levels comparable to the reactor.) I really don't think you could build those kinds of mounts in a modular fashion. Maybe if they were fixed/axial mounts (like the heavy TLs on the Separatist frigate, for example. As a supportting example, you might note that Mon Cal weaposn seem to be "recessed" into the ship - the TradeFed might mount them in a similar way.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Possibly. The ICS says nothing about that, but it may never have been considered for entry. But if true, it would also tend to suggest its not a "true" warship, since such weapons would have to be properly mounted and braced to be effective (especially at the power levels comparable to the reactor.) I really don't think you could build those kinds of mounts in a modular fashion. Maybe if they were fixed/axial mounts (like the heavy TLs on the Separatist frigate, for example. As a supportting example, you might note that Mon Cal weaposn seem to be "recessed" into the ship - the TradeFed might mount them in a similar way.)

I realize; I'm saying those trusses and bracings were outright removed from the original version in order to make that giant cavern. We already know (removal of propulsion/energy systems) that the modifications were radical and drastic.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Bah.. I still think Palpatine Purposly designed those 'Warships' ((The Venators)) to be sucky so he could justify the ISD ships

[FTeik]

Hmmm, i got my version of the ROTS:ICS today and i really like it (despite some flaws like lacking numbers for shields, fire-power and so on).

Did you notice the parts about the self-replicating factaries of the TechnoUnion or the elite astronomers of the Wookiees?

@ConnorMacLeod:

You have a point, but how else can we explain the large numbers of Actis-fighters carried by the Venator(s), if the only pilots for them come from the limited number of Jedi?

[Firefox]

I've thought the same thing. Why bother stating that the standard complement includes 192 Eta-2s unless Jedi aren't the only ones operating them? Could there be a variant fitted with navigation, deflector and fire control suites?

[Stark]

Perhaps Jedi have more 'close scrapes' and wreck fighters (and survive) more often than normal pilots? Having many more Eta-2s that Jedi would allow you to keep your force-multiplier in play much longer than 1-ship-per-pilot would allow, if Jedi fly like maniacs and return to the carrier to swap when their fighter is tanked.

[Andras]

The conversion of 40,000 tons per second into energy should result in an output of 3.265e24W

[Connor MacLeod]

@ConnorMacLeod:

You have a point, but how else can we explain the large numbers of Actis-fighters carried by the Venator(s), if the only pilots for them come from the limited number of Jedi?

How do we know they actually carry Actis Fighters? The cross section only shows two there - I didnt see any others (you can see lots of V-wings and ARC-170's, though.) It may very well carry 192 other kinds of fighters (delta 7's, more V-wings.. or maybe other types or kinds of fighters for all we know.)

Unless we actually see this thing carrying or launching large numbers of Actis, I see no reason to assume it actually carries such a tiny, impractically-designed starfighter (Much better to dedicate that space to V-wings or more ARCs)

[Connor MacLeod]

Perhaps Jedi have more 'close scrapes' and wreck fighters (and survive) more often than normal pilots? Having many more Eta-2s that Jedi would allow you to keep your force-multiplier in play much longer than 1-ship-per-pilot would allow, if Jedi fly like maniacs and return to the carrier to swap when their fighter is tanked.

Rather pointless to carry more than say a dozen replacements per ship (if even that many - its not like there are enough Jedi to man each Venator singly, much less in multiples.) The hangar already consumes enough dedicated internal volume - its pointless to bother wasting more by carrying unused fighter craft (much less nearly 200 of them)

[Stark]

Rather pointless to carry more than say a dozen replacements per ship (if even that many - its not like there are enough Jedi to man each Venator singly, much less in multiples.) The hangar already consumes enough dedicated internal volume - its pointless to bother wasting more by carrying unused fighter craft (much less nearly 200 of them)

I was assuming there were relatively large numbers of Jedi aboard some of those ships. If it's just Obi-wan and Anakin (or whoever) then it's ridiculous to carry 200-odd fighters.

[FTeik]

Changes nothing, that the Venator is said to carry that many Actis-fighters. What would be the point to give stats for a special-equipted vessel instead of the standard fighter-load?

[Firefox]

How do we know they actually carry Actis Fighters? The cross section only shows two there - I didnt see any others

So by that logic, all the craft visible in the drawing represent the total craft complement? I can only see 7-8 ARC-170s. Does that mean it's the total complement?

The ICS data file says:

Complement: 192 V-wing fighters; 192 Eta-2 Actis Interceptors; 36 ARC-170 fighters; 24 military walkers; 40 LAAT/i (Low Altitude Assault Transport/infantry) gunships; miscellaneous shuttles

It doesn't say "either 192 V-wing fighters or 192 Eta-2s".

[SCVN 2812]

Stupid question: not having the ICS yet, is the V-Wing referred to by the ICS the same as the V-Wing of EU / Rogue Squadron games fame? I haven't seen any production art or captures with anything Republic that has resembles a V but perhaps I just missed them.

[The Original Nex]

Stupid question: not having the ICS yet, is the V-Wing referred to by the ICS the same as the V-Wing of EU / Rogue Squadron games fame? I haven't seen any production art or captures with anything Republic that has resembles a V but perhaps I just missed them.

No. "V-Wing" is not its official name, it's a tag on given to it by its pilots. It's actual name is the Alpha-3 Nimbus-class Starfighter.