Nothing wrong with that, most of what we do here is speculation, that doesn't mean it can't be fun!The problem is that it isn't anything except speculation on your behalf.
But some possibilities are more possible than others. ; )I don't have to admit any possibility, because EVERYTHING is possible.
To give more than I have already would require a research paper, similar to the site Mr. Wong has put up, complete with full text quotes, screen caps, etc. Or an in depth essay. Who knows, it's a good idea, though I really didn't plan to do it right now, since the principle opposition (which would insist on it) seems to be based on nitpicking.The burden of proof is on you to give convincing enough arguments, instead of giving exceptionally vague examples.
If the idea offends you, you don't have to accept it, nor do you have to accept my opinion as truth.
Well, there's a reason for that. Let's use a little quick example from something else we might be more used to hearing about.Maybe they inspired each other, maybe they were inspired by the same thing. You put much more weight in the first possibility and nearly none in the second, and say lots and lots of stuff trying to explain why it's not the MORE likely one.
Torpedoes.
We know torpedoes exist in real life.
Star Trek uses "photon torpedoes." Okay, that's kind of a sci fi way of putting a ship/sub based weapon into use on a starship.
Star Wars (created 10 years later) uses another sci fi weapon called "proton torpedoes."
Both examples are big boomy weapons that glow brightly (unlike real torpeodes).
Obviously, Star Trek's weapon was inspired by "real life" with a sci fi spin put on it. Did Star Wars merely use real life torpeodes as an inspiration? Or did it take Trek's idea, and spin it a little bit, so its about protons now instead of photons (it even rhymes, and is spelled the same except for one letter, even looks similar)?
It doesn't take a boatload of research to see that similarity. And no, it's not impossible that indeed the similarity is just a coincidence, but I think its good enough for me. ; ) We're speculating about fiction here, and comparing it to other fiction, purely for fun and the sake of argument, true enough.
Yes, and they're so vague, and I said it over and over.
Vague, perhaps, if you haven't read the first three "Dune" novels and hav at least a passing familiarity with them. If you've only seen the two movies, it might be very confusing, and probably unconvincing (since the movies were made LATER and thus had try to keep up with precendents set by prior sci fi flicks).
Somebody who hasn't read "Outlander" and the other references to Sandpeople, and who hasn't seen "The Searchers" or any of the other sources I mentioned would similarly be at a disadvantage, not being able to see for themselves if I wasn't just bullshitting. True enough.
I guess I just have to hope that people contributing to the discussion have gone over those materials. And if they still don't agree, that's fine, it wouldn't be a discussion if I was just ramming my viewpoint down your throat. ; )
It's not the same thing. How many people do you know go around forming war parties, and massacring villages in order to steal water, or incorporating it in religious rituals? These are very specific things that go beyond the "ordinary." Much like the desert example. Sure, there are people who live in deserts, but how many people live in the deep desert of a planet that is entirely made up of desert?Like that both people like water, because it's hard to get and they'd die without it. Real people do it all the time when stuck in the middle of some desert.
I am not about to make a proposal for Herbert's estate to sue Lucas's for copyright infringement. That was not the purpose of my posts at all. I might as well ask the creators (or more likely their estates and/or current owners) of Flash Gordon, Ford's films, Kurosawa's films, etc and everything else that Lucas used, that wasn't entirely in the public domain.Nonono, you've got it all wrong. A work of fiction that borrows from another work of fiction can be considered
derivative. Fortunately, a work of fiction that borrows from real-life examples (so, what doesn't?) isn't at all derivative work. Unless you think that we're characters in a novel and the writers are going to sue us.
No, I don't have any problem whatsoever with Lucas borrowing ideas from sources he likes for his stories. I don't care if he borrows from history either, as many authors do it. There are all kinds of references to the American Civil War in AOTC for example. I would not try to argue that he's trying to rip off the movie "Gettysburg" or "Glory."
Saying that the Sandpeople are taken entirely from real life Arab nomads ignores the similarities between them and the Fremen, which real life nomads do NOT share. That is my point. To ignore that qualification is to make a strawman of my argument (and it's not really an argument, but it's turned into one).
Plagiarism is illegal, and unethical (by today's standards), but I'm not arguing for that. I'm arguing for inspiration, and for similarity. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. If it's okay to admit that Star Wars took inspiration from sources such as Flash Gordon, and serial cliffhangers, why is it wrong to say it took inspiration from other sources (such as Dune)?That you say that if copying a book is derivative work, then copying real life is also derivative work.
The argument that all apparent references to Dune in Star Wars can be attributed instead to historical references alone is shaky at best, knowing what we know about the development of Star Wars in Lucas's mind (as he's told us) and as its developed in the course of the five (and eventually six) films (and the expanded universe, which of course is derivative of his original work).
I tried to use examples in which the Fremen and Sandpeople were alike or similar. Both live on a desert planet. No real life nomads that I know of live on a desert planet. I don't know about warrior societies, living in the deep desert that are as fanatical and violent about water preservation as those two fictional peoples. The relationship the two have with their surrounding communities, and their relationship with their desert animals helps to make them close kin.You misunderstand. If you read the major part of the paragraph (the part without 'wrong' in it) you'll see that you find it more likely that one author takes a real-life example, adds a lot of stuff, and then another one copies it, except that it removes the extra stuff (thus leaving only the original real-life example) and adds his own stuff - than simply recognizing that neither of them invented the wheel.
There are very few Sandpeople. Obi-Wan and Luke talk about them while they examine the wreckage of the Jawa sandcrawler. Obviously they have a reputation for riding Banthas into their violent raids (the tracks). Stormtroopers were either able to fake the Bantha tracks, or rode Banthas of their own.In the movie there are very few banthas.
Since most of the movie doesn't take place in the deep deserts of Tatooine, it makes sense that we wouldn't see many Tuskens or Banthas. But we do see them when Luke sets out to find R2D2 and is subsequently ambushed by them.
In Return of the Jedi we see a herd of wild Banthas in the deep desert on the way to the Pit of Carkoon (as I mentioned before, that big head that was added in the Special Edition reminds one of a Dune sandworm). The Phantom Menace doesn't show any Banthas that I recall, and we only see a few Tuskens taking potshots at racers (who appear to travel out past civilized regions of the area... perhaps its the Tuskens way of protesting the race in their territory? or just a chance to pick up some easy salvage). In the AOTC novelisation, it is mentioned that "Bantha poodoo" (which I guess they mean bantha droppings, even though the term is defined as "fodder" in earlier Star Wars movies) is covering some of the sensors... which indicates that the Tuskens are getting bolder and closer to the Lars compound, because where there are Banthas, there are Sandpeople...
I believe there are a few brief fly-overs in which we see Banthas in the city of Tatooine (in AOTC) but I'd have to look over them again more closely to be sure.
Sure. The Fremen and the Sandpeople are both established as *water* specific bandits, although the emphasis for the Sandpeople is less evident in the film itself (see the screenplays/novelisations for more canon details however).Ok two things:
* there's nothing odd about people who can't invent their own water to pillage for water. Bandits pillage for anything they can't get by other means. Food, women, whatever.
I never claimed or assumed that Lucas wrote the EU material. But he does approve it, either personally or through his lawyers and subsidiary companies.* whatever book it was, I assume it's EU. You don't seem to understand that having some say in what gets published or not DOESN'T MEAN that Lucas writes this stuff and then mails it for other authors to publish. It's ludicrous to assume that.
I don't think that Episode I Adventures is pure canon. It is based in PART on the screenplays/deleted scenes from the Phantom Menace and the novel, which are part of the canon. In all other aspects its EU (and therefore "quasi-canon" according to where it doesn't conflict with canon, as per the rules established by Lucas's companies and understood by this site). Outlander is EU, so is Darksaber. The TPM and AOTC screenplays and novelisations are canon, after the films.
The fact that they both live in the deep desert of an all desert planet is something that they share that is not present in real life (obviously). The fact that they share other common characteristics just helps to complete the picture.Except that real-life examples already have most of your 'unique characteristics' in them, all at once. Don't nitpick on each of my arguments separately and out of context.
I could even argue that since the Fremen are based on "real life" nomads and tribesmen in harsh environments, whatever similarities the Sandpeople share with those real life nomads is due merely to the fact that they're inspired by the Fremen, and thus carry the same earmarks of these real life nomads.
However, I can hear the criticism now... "you're assuming what you're trying to prove." When looked at in the realm of literary science fiction, its not really much of a stretch. Dune shows us a desert nomad society of fierce warriors, obsessed with water, and bonded to hardy desert creatures. It is a success. Some time later, another science fiction success story appears, and it has some characters that remind us of the Fremen. If Star Wars had come out first, I would have had the same reaction to Dune, had the roles been reversed. Obviously, Herbert put a lot more time and effort into explaining the Fremen in detail, as they form the centerpiece for his stories. The Sandpeople are only minor background characters in Star Wars (so far) and so they are fleshed out less.
To me, they are kind of like the "klingons" of Star Wars (in that they've become something of a stereotyped one-note race). I don't mean that in an insulting way.
If Star Wars had been first, it would have made sense to note that first Lucas introduces a race of people and then Herbert borrows his idea and expands upon it, changing some things along the way. Instead, we have Herbert's idea, and Lucas using a similar idea, but not doing much with it.
As to the nitpicking, my own arguments are being nitpicked, so I don't see the problem there. Turn-about is fair play, I'm afraid.
Of course, as we know, wherever the EU doesn't contradict the core canon, its part of the "official continuity." At least that's what people like Mr. Wong here have made convincing enough arguments for. I concur with that assumption. I've pointed out reasons why I still think that talking about the EU is relevant (by virtue of the "looking at same sources for inspiration" argument, and the POSSIBLE "consult Lucas on core characters/concepts for contradictions" idea).I just put the "warriors" part in the same pot with all the other "want water", "protect from elements", "develop kinky feelings for their animals". Not to mention that most of these are in the EU which isn't George's work.
Both make use of medieval imagery and ideas. Although Star Wars borrows from many varied time periods (Roman Republic/Empire, Cold War, American Civil War, British Empire, American frontier west) in addition.It's more common in Sci-Fi to bring back archaic stuff (even in a futuristic way) than you seem to realize. Honestly, Dune's approach is more conservative (people still use combat knifes even when they pack heavy machineguns and other kinds of armament, and there are lots of knife-fighting duels even now). It's a bit like saying that when weaponry gets advanced enough people will stop throwing punches. Star Wars is much more blatantly "medieval swords and sorcery/swashbucklers" than Dune.
Dune's galaxy is ruled by an Emperor, and the great houses of the Landsraad (world's ruled by noble families), according to a revised "feudal" system, much like the one used in Europe during the middle ages. Swords and other bladed weapons are the elegant and necessary training of lords and ladies.
Of course we know that Star Wars has the whole swashbuckling society of the Jedi KNIGHTS and its share of princesses, queens, and its Emperor.
The Arthurian legends (and tales of other heroes, like Roland and Oliver, Charlemagne, etc) do more to popularize the middle ages than anything else, and inspire these kinds of things. The exploits of the Samurai also come to mind, and as portrayed in films like those done by Kurosawa.
Obviously there you have an example of something that is historical, but also fictional. The Arthurian legends are fictionalized accounts of real events (in some places) and outright fantasy in many others (combining characters, changing locations, names, and situations to make a better story). So to, I would imagine stories of the Samurai being. They wouldn't be read as straight history, but as entertainment and something to get moral lessons from.
On another side note, just so you don't think I'm being overly critical and attacking Star Wars (I love Star Wars, better than I like Dune). In the (much hated by fans) "Highlander 2: the Quickening," the Immortals are shown being from a planet called "Zeist" which appears to contain vast deserts (we don't know if its all desert or not) and there is a war being conducted by robe-wearing rebels, and both sides use mostly swords and other bladed weapons in battle (with a few slug thrower type guns). There is a scene that plays out in it remarkably like some of the ones shown in the two "Dune" movies. It came out in 1990, so I don't have any problem with labelling that part as being "inspired" by Dune.
Even the fact that the Immortals are said to come from "another time and place" rings true with the lost history of the Fremen, as being exiles, outcasted and wandering from their original homes.
I agree. And what better way to celebrate that fact than by appreciating some of the things that have inspired the stories we love? Saying that X inspired Y shouldn't diminish our love for either. Yet it seems that I'm being told that I can't make a comparision in this case, and I don't know why.Science Fiction, being a branch of regular Fiction, is allowed and even encouraged to borrow from all kinds of Fiction archetypes.
Its in the spirit of a site like this to ponder such things. What would you rather talk about? Something that's already been done to death like the calcs for the destruction of Alderaan or how midichlorians work? Each of those things hardly takes up much screen time in the grand scheme of the movies either, and yet we have pages and pages written about it here and other places on the 'net and in fandom. It's okay to be a geek. ; )Somehow you are managing to build a 100 km long chain with all those links you got from some evil race we see during 15 seconds in a movie!
That's a strawman caricature of my argument, and you know it. ; )You really really seem to think that EU guidelines are pretty much George Lucas writing all of the novels in advance and then sending it to authors for them to put their name on them and then publish it.
While some of Star Wars's canon literature used ghostwriters (and its canon), the majority of it isn't. But we both know that somebody can't just publish a Star Wars novel without going through Lucas's lawyers or even Lucas himself. How specific those guidelines may be is anyone's guess. I welcome anyone with that information to post it here, it would be interesting.
But in order to have continuity in a "canon universe" as Star Wars attempts to do, you have to have some sort of agreement as to what fits and what doesn't. So if the writers dont' talk to Lucas, they at least have to talk to each other, to keep it all straight. I know that a lot of the EU has been thrown up in the air due to the prequels, but that's the past. The same kind of thing happens with a novel like "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" (having been written during the time before the classic trilogy was finished).
Another strawman falls over...It sounds like you think that the lawyers thought of every single word/idea in each novel and then told the author to write it, instead of the author thinking up an idea and then asking the lawyers/Lucas if it's okay.
If I "see" Clint Eastwood in the original material, and it isn't denied outright by Lucas himself, then I see no reason why that can't be a valid hypothesis. Note you said it "wasn't out of character." If it were incorrect, it would surely by out of character, wouldn't it?Let's imagine that you're an EU author. You write a book based on Boba Fett, and start getting inspiration of all Clint Eastwood movies for things for Boba to say and do. Then Lucas says it's not out of character or anything, and you publish it. Then I read your book, and begin telling everyone how Lucas borrowed his idea of Boba Fett from Clint Eastwood.
I would think the easiest way would be to set your events as happening after all the movies (or way before), and involving brand new characters, not found in the movies. These approaches have been widely used, as we know, by EU authors, (some to great success).In your example, the Author doesn't even NEED to think that Lucas was inspired or not by King Lear! The author might just think that there are a few nifty things in King Lear that he can draw inspiration from, and then put them in his novel! Then you'll go to Lucas and start complaining that he drew inspiration from King Lear!
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I think were getting into an attack on my motives. I'm not trying to call Lucas a liar, or make grounds to sue him, I'm merely pointing out what I see as another (among the many) inspirations from previous entertainment fiction that built Star Wars. Since I'm not out to ruin Lucas or destroy Star Wars, why is it wrong for me to look for comparisons?
Again, making a comparison is not a leap in logic. I take the EU into account when making my argument, but rather than hurt the argument, it helps it. I honestly believe that. I am not sure what you're trying to nitpick about here, but it sounds like a nitpick, nonetheless.You make this big leap in logic because in RETROSPECTIVE you can say that everything may strengthen/weaken any argument you want, that this was inspired by that or that F.H. is a Nazi or whatever...
That is true, but we also know that they are (at times) being inspired by some of the same sources as Lucas (diliberately), and so its not incredible to see a case of that happening here.You fail to realize that these authors are ADDING to Lucas' stuff, they're making their own decisions and borrowing from anything they want, as long as it doesn't CONTRADICT canon.
Now that's definately a strawman. ; )You believe that contradicting Canon is so easy that it is a requisite to follow a rigid set of exact guidelines to write your stuff (to the point that most of it is pre-written).
The easiest way to avoid polluting Canon is to write stuff that won't have any the slightest influence in Canon stories, like making an adventure about Chewie tring to have a zit removed!
Since Lucas owns the IP copyright on the characters, situations, and original stories, he has the write to maintain creative control over them. That means, that like it or not, he gets to put his stamp of approval on each and every product that touches his universe... even if he does it vicariously through his crack team of lawyer commandos. ; )
Somebody as wealthy and well-known an entertainment creator/owner as Lucas can't afford to let people screw around with his property without his permission (not when there's money involved).
Star Wars has its policies involving how the expanded universe works. I'm not going to get into specifics of what every author has to go through, since I don't have those facts in front of me, suffice to say, they have to go through Lucas to put the Logo on the cover and sell it, period.
