How Did the Rebels Perform at Hoth?

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How'd the rebels do?

Excellent: Did as well as they could given the circumstances
17
23%
Good: Some things could have been better, but not bad overall
24
32%
Fair: Decent job but some glaring errors
23
31%
Poor: A few high points, but the overall execution was sloppy/poorly planned
7
9%
Terrible: Good points were sheer luck, very badly executed
3
4%
 
Total votes: 74

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Dangermouse
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Post by Dangermouse »

Jaevric wrote:

It's been a while since I saw ESB--did the probe droid send up images of the shield generator, or readings of the shield's power output? The shield, as I recall, wasn't turned on until the Imperial fleet dropped out of hyperspace and showed up on the Rebel sensors, hence Vader's anger at losing the advantage of surprise.
In the movie, the probe droid sends images of the main power generator. In the novelization, the probe droid sends images of a squadron of snowspeeders(IIRC - its been a whle since I have read it) .
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Post by Noble Ire »

What second wave? Vader and his personal squad of troops landed directly at the base, and it's well known that Vader's main priority (however misplaced) was the capture of Skywalker, and (if nothing else) at least the Millennium Falcon, where are you getting this idea of a second wave of Imperial soldiers from?
Adding to that, even if there was a second wave, they would require a fair amount of time to land, debark, and coorodinate troops or walkers near the take off zone, by which time the transports would be outbound. A more viable alternative would be fighter strikes (which may have actually occured, and been held off by the remaining rebel starfighters, as suggested by Rogue Squadron 3, even if it is game mechanics.) Orbital bombardment would not be an alternative at that point, due to the number of Imperial troops near the base, not to mention Vader himself.
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Post by Lord Sabre Ace »

Noble Ire wrote:Orbital bombardment would not be an alternative at that point, due to the number of Imperial troops near the base, not to mention Vader himself.
Had Vader not been there, it would have been viable. Remember, the Empire was ready to destroy Endor and "an entire legion of [their] best troops" just to kill the rebel squad on the moon if the shield generated was destroyed.

Orbital bombardment could also have been an option even with Vader there, considering the accuracy of Imperial weaponry. The Venator could hit targets at 10 light minutes (about the distance from Earth to Mars). A newer warship like the Imperator would probably be even more accurate.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Had Vader not been there, it would have been viable. Remember, the Empire was ready to destroy Endor and "an entire legion of [their] best troops" just to kill the rebel squad on the moon if the shield generated was destroyed.
Vader wanted to capture Luke alive, and I pity the Imperial captian who tries to impose military logic on a Sith Lord when he's really after something.
Orbital bombardment could also have been an option even with Vader there, considering the accuracy of Imperial weaponry. The Venator could hit targets at 10 light minutes (about the distance from Earth to Mars). A newer warship like the Imperator would probably be even more accurate.
Of course, Echo Base is buried in ice, not solid soil or bedrock. And even a dialed down shot still runs the risk of either killing Luke directly, or causing enough structural damage to the base to collapse it.
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Post by Lord Sabre Ace »

Noble Ire wrote: Vader wanted to capture Luke alive, and I pity the Imperial captian who tries to impose military logic on a Sith Lord when he's really after something.
I was refering to just killing Rebels, not capturing Luke. I imagine that Vader could sense that Luke was in the snowspeeder, not the base, and crashed well away from the base.
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Post by Noble Ire »

I was refering to just killing Rebels, not capturing Luke. I imagine that Vader could sense that Luke was in the snowspeeder, not the base, and crashed well away from the base.
Note that Luke was very near the base (judging by the vector of the Millenium Falcon as he sees it leaving) before he accompanied the last transports up. Too close for bombardment to be safe.
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Post by Lord Sabre Ace »

Noble Ire wrote: Note that Luke was very near the base (judging by the vector of the Millenium Falcon as he sees it leaving) before he accompanied the last transports up. Too close for bombardment to be safe.
Perhaps too close for bombarding the hanger, but they could probably have leveled the rest of the base.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:
Noble Ire wrote: Note that Luke was very near the base (judging by the vector of the Millenium Falcon as he sees it leaving) before he accompanied the last transports up. Too close for bombardment to be safe.
Perhaps too close for bombarding the hanger, but they could probably have leveled the rest of the base.
No, they couldn't have. The OT:ITW shows that the hangar is right off the main part of the base and the transport flight tunnel.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Dangermouse wrote:
Jaevric wrote:

It's been a while since I saw ESB--did the probe droid send up images of the shield generator, or readings of the shield's power output? The shield, as I recall, wasn't turned on until the Imperial fleet dropped out of hyperspace and showed up on the Rebel sensors, hence Vader's anger at losing the advantage of surprise.
In the movie, the probe droid sends images of the main power generator. In the novelization, the probe droid sends images of a squadron of snowspeeders(IIRC - its been a whle since I have read it) .
not to hard to justify as the probe droid was still functioning when the rebels did their rescue search
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Post by PainRack »

The Original Nex wrote: What second wave? Vader and his personal squad of troops landed directly at the base, and it's well known that Vader's main priority (however misplaced) was the capture of Skywalker, and (if nothing else) at least the Millennium Falcon, where are you getting this idea of a second wave of Imperial soldiers from?
Vader WAS the second wave of Imperial soldiers. The first was General Veers.

As for the capture of Skywalker, how was he going to accomplish that? By capturing an empty docking bay? There were no transports left in Echo base by the time Vader entered. Indeed, depending on how one wishes to view the timeframe between the shields dropping and Leia escaping, there may have been no transport left in Echo base when Vader LANDED. Yet, here there is, this wide open secondary landing field, where transports were taking off Rebel soldiers. You know, the soldiers that people like Luke Skywalker may have been leading against the Empire, including Rogue Squadron, the squadron which had a certain Jedi named Luke skywalker?

Adding to that, even if there was a second wave, they would require a fair amount of time to land, debark, and coorodinate troops or walkers near the take off zone, by which time the transports would be outbound. A more viable alternative would be fighter strikes (which may have actually occured, and been held off by the remaining rebel starfighters, as suggested by Rogue Squadron 3, even if it is game mechanics.) Orbital bombardment would not be an alternative at that point, due to the number of Imperial troops near the base, not to mention Vader himself.
Unfortunately, AOTC does not support this contention and more importantly, even when the base itself had been invaded and secured by Vader forces, this secondary field was still taking on transports and leaving! Including Luke Skywalker, who prepped his own X-wing here.
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Post by Isolder74 »

perhaps Vader was sensing Leia thinking she was Luke

There might be a good reason Vader seemed so certain in the Asteroid chase that the Falcon was not destroyed when his officers suggested it was.
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Post by Lord Sabre Ace »

Isolder74 wrote:perhaps Vader was sensing Leia thinking she was Luke
He needed Han and Leia as bait for Luke. That's why he chased after them.
There might be a good reason Vader seemed so certain in the Asteroid chase that the Falcon was not destroyed when his officers suggested it was.
He would have felt their death in the Force.
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Post by Noble Ire »

As for the capture of Skywalker, how was he going to accomplish that? By capturing an empty docking bay? There were no transports left in Echo base by the time Vader entered. Indeed, depending on how one wishes to view the timeframe between the shields dropping and Leia escaping, there may have been no transport left in Echo base when Vader LANDED. Yet, here there is, this wide open secondary landing field, where transports were taking off Rebel soldiers. You know, the soldiers that people like Luke Skywalker may have been leading against the Empire, including Rogue Squadron, the squadron which had a certain Jedi named Luke skywalker?
Did you notice how close Luke was to the Docking bay when the MF took off, escaping Vader by mere moments. It's entirely possible Vader was following a directional sense towards Luke, but assumed he was on the Falcon when it left (or simply could not reach Luke before he departed.)

And why are you so certian that those transports were parked there? They may have simply touched down to pick up stragglers, and then left immediately.
Unfortunately, AOTC does not support this contention and more importantly, even when the base itself had been invaded and secured by Vader forces, this secondary field was still taking on transports and leaving! Including Luke Skywalker, who prepped his own X-wing here.
Oh, there were Acclamators on Hoth? Gee, I guess I must have missed them. :roll:
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Post by The Original Nex »

And why are you so certian that those transports were parked there? They may have simply touched down to pick up stragglers, and then left immediately.
In fact we know that that transport was indeed the "last transport" according to 3P0, and we see it take off just before Luke departs.
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Post by Knife »

It's possible that they moved the last couple transports to the 'south side' where they placed tha last few fighters. More of an evac point than anything, since the did call a general retreat by then. They knew there were imperials in the base so they moved thier last resources outside so the retreating troops had an evac and moved the remaining fighters there so the returning snowspeeder pilots could mount up and take off with the last transports.
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Post by McNum »

Knife wrote:It's possible that they moved the last couple transports to the 'south side' where they placed tha last few fighters. More of an evac point than anything, since the did call a general retreat by then. They knew there were imperials in the base so they moved thier last resources outside so the retreating troops had an evac and moved the remaining fighters there so the returning snowspeeder pilots could mount up and take off with the last transports.
While quite low in the canon order, this is supported by the Rogue Squadron II game on GameCube. In the Battle of Hoth level you, as Wedge, fly to a rear landing site where you transfer from Snowspeeder to X-Wing to protect the last transports as they take off. This is also the first appearance by TIEs in that level since the shied at this point is down.
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Post by PainRack »

Noble Ire wrote: Did you notice how close Luke was to the Docking bay when the MF took off, escaping Vader by mere moments. It's entirely possible Vader was following a directional sense towards Luke, but assumed he was on the Falcon when it left (or simply could not reach Luke before he departed.)
Are you watching the same movie that I am? Luke was nowhere near that docking bay. Instead, he was in the secondary landing field. You know, the one where he boarded his X-wing, being one of the last few soldiers to escape?
And why are you so certian that those transports were parked there? They may have simply touched down to pick up stragglers, and then left immediately.
Because its a logical assumption, as those transports were supposed to pick up the ground forces, as opposed to the support staff at echo base. More importantly, we know for sure that there were X-wings parked there, meaning that it should had been an important area to secure.
Oh, there were Acclamators on Hoth? Gee, I guess I must have missed them. :roll:
So, why would the Empire drop performance and air-mobility disappear at Hoth?
It's possible that they moved the last couple transports to the 'south side' where they placed tha last few fighters. More of an evac point than anything, since the did call a general retreat by then. They knew there were imperials in the base so they moved thier last resources outside so the retreating troops had an evac and moved the remaining fighters there so the returning snowspeeder pilots could mount up and take off with the last transports.
The minatures game IIRC states that the Rebels moved loading operations out onto the South Side on purpose, after the Empire forces were seen. However, the Empire by then had already secured air supremacy, as seen by the fact that vader was able to drop onto the base directly. There is absolutely no reason why this exposed field should not have been hit.
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Post by Dangermouse »

Noble Ire wrote: Did you notice how close Luke was to the Docking bay when the MF took off, escaping Vader by mere moments. It's entirely possible Vader was following a directional sense towards Luke, but assumed he was on the Falcon when it left (or simply could not reach Luke before he departed.)
Its hard to tell exactly how close the main docking bay and the secondary field actually are though. Here is the main image of Luke looking back as the Falcon takes off:

Image

Luke appears to be on fairly hilly terrain. The camera than does a stationary pan/follow of the Falcon as it leaves. We see no other fighters or transports during this pan.

In this image, we see Luke (circled) walk toward the camera with a transport in the background:

Image

I have circled visible mountainous/ hilly terrain in the image as well. Its not very obvious how the elements in the scene match up with the previous shot of Luke and the Falcon. The hills in the distance seem to be too far away for this field to be a realistic evac point for the base, even though that is the more likely point based on Luke's walking direction.

So its hard to tell exactly how close Luke is to the hanger at this point to see if a turbolaser bombardment is possible based on fears of hitting Luke. In a way, that part of ESB always bothered me. I never liked how Luke just gently flys away from Hoth without having to run a blockade. Perhaps the Imperial fleet at this point was too busy chasing the falcon / other transports and did not want to bother with a mere fighter.
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Post by PainRack »

Dangermouse wrote: So its hard to tell exactly how close Luke is to the hanger at this point to see if a turbolaser bombardment is possible based on fears of hitting Luke. In a way, that part of ESB always bothered me. I never liked how Luke just gently flys away from Hoth without having to run a blockade. Perhaps the Imperial fleet at this point was too busy chasing the falcon / other transports and did not want to bother with a mere fighter.
Isn't there quotes from the radio that describes how Luke was engaged by TIE fighters before he escaped?
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Post by Noble Ire »

Because its a logical assumption, as those transports were supposed to pick up the ground forces, as opposed to the support staff at echo base. More importantly, we know for sure that there were X-wings parked there, meaning that it should had been an important area to secure.
How is that a logical assumption? The single transport could have easily flown into the open valley, landed briefly or simply used it's repulsors to go low, picked up a few remaining troops and take off. The operation could take minutes, or less. As for the fighters, they could have been brought there during the evacuation so that Rogue Squadron members could easily ditch their speeders, grab an X-Wing, and get out without having to go back to base (this is what Luke did.)

So, why would the Empire drop performance and air-mobility disappear at Hoth?
Why not? Certainly, they still have the capability to construct vessels that can do that, and may even still have Acclamators in service, but there were none at Hoth. Simply because they have the technology does not mean that a battle group or all landing craft would always have it equipt. After all, Vader never intended to land troops enmass, but Admrial Ozzel screwed up the approach.

Its hard to tell exactly how close the main docking bay and the secondary field actually are though. Here is the main image of Luke looking back as the Falcon takes off:



Luke appears to be on fairly hilly terrain. The camera than does a stationary pan/follow of the Falcon as it leaves. We see no other fighters or transports during this pan.
The Falcon does appear to be inclined upwards, as if it is heading into space directly, which makes sense. Still, I suppose it would be difficult to say exactly how close the take off field is to the bay. :?
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Post by PainRack »

Noble Ire wrote: How is that a logical assumption? The single transport could have easily flown into the open valley, landed briefly or simply used it's repulsors to go low, picked up a few remaining troops and take off. The operation could take minutes, or less. As for the fighters, they could have been brought there during the evacuation so that Rogue Squadron members could easily ditch their speeders, grab an X-Wing, and get out without having to go back to base (this is what Luke did.)
And? Hello, what makes you think that none of this activity would not have been picked up by Imperial sensors and warranted action? Especially since any such activity should had been done prior to General Veers destroying the power generators?

Why not? Certainly, they still have the capability to construct vessels that can do that, and may even still have Acclamators in service, but there were none at Hoth. Simply because they have the technology does not mean that a battle group or all landing craft would always have it equipt. After all, Vader never intended to land troops enmass, but Admrial Ozzel screwed up the approach.
So, you're now asking me to believe that despite the fact that Lord Vader was able to conduct a direct drop onto Echo base itself, they were unable to redirect a single shuttle to attack an exposed landing field with stormtroopers...........................
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Post by Waddles McGee »

I would have to say the Rebels could have done better. The upgrade they gave to the snowspeeders in ESB made it so they could fly in the cold, right?So why not the same for the X-Wings?
:idea: And why did'nt they use some Y-Wings to provide air support for the Rebel infantry?They have more of those than anything else!They probably could have upgraded the Y-wings too.
Or would the upgrades have made it impossible for life support to function in space?Maybe giving upgrades to the X-wings and Y-wings would have made them slower and easier for the AT-ATs to hit them? I'm just pitching ideas around here!
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Post by Noble Ire »

And? Hello, what makes you think that none of this activity would not have been picked up by Imperial sensors and warranted action? Especially since any such activity should had been done prior to General Veers destroying the power generators?
Certianly they would detect the activity. But there wouldn't be any time to do anything about it in time. Veers is tied up elsewhere, the Ties are engaged in the atmosphere and with the transports, and the orbital bombardment is prohibited by the presence of Lord Vader and his troopers.
So, you're now asking me to believe that despite the fact that Lord Vader was able to conduct a direct drop onto Echo base itself, they were unable to redirect a single shuttle to attack an exposed landing field with stormtroopers...........................
What good would sending a single shuttle (or even a few) full of stormtroopers be against a single large transport and several X-Wings that are intent on escaping anyways? They could only stop them in time if they could drop in some AT-ATs or AT-STs, which would take too much time to disembark, and might be shot down by remaining rebel aircraft.
I would have to say the Rebels could have done better. The upgrade they gave to the snowspeeders in ESB made it so they could fly in the cold, right?So why not the same for the X-Wings?
A possibility as to why fighters weren't employed has already been explained: They were needed to guide the transports up, and diverting them into a holding action they could not win would be pointless.
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Post by Waddles McGee »

Oops. Shutting up now. :oops:
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Post by Spetulhu »

scififanoftheearth wrote: Or would the upgrades have made it impossible for life support to function in space?Maybe giving upgrades to the X-wings and Y-wings would have made them slower and easier for the AT-ATs to hit them? I'm just pitching ideas around here!
Who knows? Aircraft have problems with ice, spacecraft entering atmospheres have trouble with heat. It might just be too much trouble to reconfigure starfighters for use in the frigid atmosphere of Hoth.
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