Response to RedLetterMedia's TPM Review (108 Page PDF)

[Havok]

Yeah, Stormtroopers are WAY less inept than battle droids. LOL

They were, the heroes usually had to sneak around them or often retreat from them. In TPM they’re “cut down like butter” and the "shouldn't be a problem". I frightening army to behold when they are then confronted with the slapstick antics of Jar-Jar during the films climax.

Yes and the heroes in the PT were Jedi that could block blaster fire and had super powers while the heroes in the OT were just normal people that could not. Oh right, until Jedi when Luke waded through the bad guys "cutting them down like butter". Turns out being a superhero with a laser sword has it's advantages. Who knew?

And the Gungans were getting slaughtered and were retreating. Oops. Facts again.

When did the Stormtroopers get defeated by a primitive ar... oh yeah.

I wish I could have whatever it is you guys take for these arguments so I can have this good of selective memory. There are some nasty girls I need to forget I banged.

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

Yes and the heroes in the PT were Jedi that could block blaster fire and had super powers while the heroes in the OT were just normal people that could not. Oh right, until Jedi when Luke waded through the bad guys "cutting them down like butter". Turns out being a superhero with a laser sword has it's advantages. Who knew?

Which part of the OT was Luke “wading” through bad guys? Was it the part on the speeder bike when he had to jump just before crashing? Or maybe the part where Jabba tricked him into the Rancor pit?

It’s true being a Jedi has its advantages, that’s why a clever screenwriter would create scenarios in which the enemies are more formidable so there is tension. Something TPM utterly lacks.

And the Gungans were getting slaughtered and were retreating. Oops. Facts again.

First, the Gungans went into the battle knowing that they were to just be a decoy so the fact that they retreat is irrelevant. Second their entire battle was of a completely slapstick nature thanks to Jar-Jar. I can’t recall one dramatic shot of the Gungans emotional toll. But I can still remember the one of the Ewok teddy bear shaking his now dead friend during the Endor battle.

When did the Stormtroopers get defeated by a primitive ar... oh yeah.

Who said anything about being defeated by a primitive culture equaling bad drama? We were talking about who was a better threat and created better tension. Stormtroops who the OT heroes (including the Jedi Obi-Wan) snuck around, retreated/hid from or PT with the robots who instilled little fear and added no tension.

I wish I could have whatever it is you guys take for these arguments so I can have this good of selective memory. There are some nasty girls I need to forget I banged.

Who are you kidding, you've never banged anyone, let alone anyone nasty.

[Batman]

Excuse me, are we talking about the same Stormtroopers who ran away from a Han Solo yelling at them by the dozen and the same Battle Droids that slaughtered a goodly number of Jedi at Geonosis?

[AdmBone2Pick]

Havok you are just nitpicking to avoid addressing the actual points I made. Your posts are a chore to read. Since I'm not getting any constructive response this will probably be my last post.

AdmBoner: The heroes in the OT are forced into fighting=better storytelling.
Havok: No they aren't. Here's what ACTUALLY happened, thus your entire POINT is invalidated.
AdmBoner: You are just nitpicking, I'm taking my ball and going home.
Havok: Concession accepted dumbfuck.

Crowing about 'winning' arguments on the internet? are you typing this from Mommy's basement?

I made a point about how the end of ANH is masterfully conceived, filmed and edited so as to ramp up the tension, compared to the mishmash climaxes of ROTS and TPM. You then turned it into an argument over whether Leia knew the Empire was tracking them or not.... completely ignoring the filmic critique to delve into plot-point nitpicking. Not only that but notice how willing you are to argue AGAINST the filmic mastery of the originals in order to defend the prequels. Truly, you are a worthy Raynorprentice.

[Batman]

Where, pray tell, have you established the alleged 'filmic mastery' of the OT, and by what standards did you determine it, pray tell? The OT was massively popular. Guess what-so was the PT.

[Knife]

Which part of the OT was Luke “wading” through bad guys? Was it the part on the speeder bike when he had to jump just before crashing? Or maybe the part where Jabba tricked him into the Rancor pit?

LoL, took about two seconds for me to remember the droves of gangsters he waded through on Tatooine at the Sallac pit.

First, the Gungans went into the battle knowing that they were to just be a decoy so the fact that they retreat is irrelevant.

Which makes it tragic for every Gungan death. Or are you saying that all the people who died in the PT, when after watching the OT we know they shouldn't have had to, not tragic to you?

Second their entire battle was of a completely slapstick nature thanks to Jar-Jar.

Minus Jar-Jar, the retreat of the Gungans was pretty close in emotion to the retreat of the rebels at Hoth.

I can’t recall one dramatic shot of the Gungans emotional toll. But I can still remember the one of the Ewok teddy bear shaking his now dead friend during the Endor battle.

Oh, I admit that the battle of Endor was more tragic and emotional than Naboo, that doesn't mean that the battle of Naboo isn't without tension. Again, I think there is a disconnect where people think defenders of the PT are saying that they are awesome movies of all time and/or better than the OT. Not necessarily the truth.

Who said anything about being defeated by a primitive culture equaling bad drama? We were talking about who was a better threat and created better tension. Stormtroops who the OT heroes (including the Jedi Obi-Wan) snuck around, retreated/hid from or PT with the robots who instilled little fear and added no tension.

No we are not, the point was made that the PT sucks, then it is being compared to the OT. Two totally different things.

Who are you kidding, you've never banged anyone, let alone anyone nasty.

LoL, you can't really bring out the 'you're a nerd' argument when you're arguing a nerd argument fuck stick.

[Havok]

Knife already covered this, but I read and typed this up before I read his post.

Yes and the heroes in the PT were Jedi that could block blaster fire and had super powers while the heroes in the OT were just normal people that could not. Oh right, until Jedi when Luke waded through the bad guys "cutting them down like butter". Turns out being a superhero with a laser sword has it's advantages. Who knew?

Which part of the OT was Luke “wading” through bad guys? Was it the part on the speeder bike when he had to jump just before crashing? Or maybe the part where Jabba tricked him into the Rancor pit?

*sigh* Do you want my copies of the OT. Seriously, I will send them to you no charge. Or I'll just drop them off at your mom's house next time I see her.
Tattooine. Above the Sarlacc pit.

And seriously... Like Jedi in the PT never got tricked or had anything crash. Was that really supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

It’s true being a Jedi has its advantages, that’s why a clever screenwriter would create scenarios in which the enemies are more formidable so there is tension. Something TPM utterly lacks.

You mean aside from the Sith, that kill one of the two Jedi we follow in the movies and almost kills the other? OK. And the TPM was a vehicle to show the Jedi in their PRIME. There is a reason that THEY were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. Because THEY were the formidable enemies. My fucking gawd why does this shit need to be fucking explained.

And the Gungans were getting slaughtered and were retreating. Oops. Facts again.

First, the Gungans went into the battle knowing that they were to just be a decoy so the fact that they retreat is irrelevant. Second their entire battle was of a completely slapstick nature thanks to Jar-Jar. I can’t recall one dramatic shot of the Gungans emotional toll. But I can still remember the one of the Ewok teddy bear shaking his now dead friend during the Endor battle.

Isn't that a point (the Gungans being decoys) that I made before to refute one of your earlier dumbass 'points'? Anyway. Hey personal anecdote. Nice. That proves everything. Jar Jar was slapstick yes, but the entire battle was not.

When did the Stormtroopers get defeated by a primitive ar... oh yeah.

Who said anything about being defeated by a primitive culture equaling bad drama? We were talking about who was a better threat and created better tension. Stormtroops who the OT heroes (including the Jedi Obi-Wan) snuck around, retreated/hid from or PT with the robots who instilled little fear and added no tension.

Nobody did. Your point was to try to refute my saying that the Stormtroopers were just as inept as Battle droids. Which is why I pointed out that while the battle droids defeated an organized, civilized army with energy weapons and shields, the Stormtroopers were defeated by, as you say, teddy bears, with rocks and bows and arrows. Clearly, the Stormtroopers are far MORE inept than the battle droids based on what we saw in not only TPM, but the rest of the PT vs the OT where the Stormtroopers couldn't hit the broadside of a fucking shield bunker.

Try to keep up. If you can only do one argument at a time, it's cool. We will wait.

I wish I could have whatever it is you guys take for these arguments so I can have this good of selective memory. There are some nasty girls I need to forget I banged.

Who are you kidding, you've never banged anyone, let alone anyone nasty.

Oh man... man... OK. I'll stay away from this one unless you would care to move it over to ARSE.

[Havok]

Havok you are just nitpicking to avoid addressing the actual points I made. Your posts are a chore to read. Since I'm not getting any constructive response this will probably be my last post.

AdmBoner: The heroes in the OT are forced into fighting=better storytelling.
Havok: No they aren't. Here's what ACTUALLY happened, thus your entire POINT is invalidated.
AdmBoner: You are just nitpicking, I'm taking my ball and going home.
Havok: Concession accepted dumbfuck.

Crowing about 'winning' arguments on the internet? are you typing this from Mommy's basement?

I made a point about how the end of ANH is masterfully conceived, filmed and edited so as to ramp up the tension, compared to the mishmash climaxes of ROTS and TPM. You then turned it into an argument over whether Leia knew the Empire was tracking them or not.... completely ignoring the filmic critique to delve into plot-point nitpicking. Not only that but notice how willing you are to argue AGAINST the filmic mastery of the originals in order to defend the prequels. Truly, you are a worthy Raynorprentice.

No, see, here you go again with those silly facts... Lets hop in the way back machine shall we...

Attacking the heroes with no warning or provocation isn't villainous?

This deserves a separate reply. Here is something I wrote about this topic:

In the original trilogy, characters are often forced into a fight. The Rebels are forced into attacking the Death Star because it discovered their base. Luke is forced to duel Vader at Cloud City when he falls into his trap. Before a fight, the story makes sure we understand what's at stake. In ANH Vader destroys Alderaan, Obi-Wan, etc.; in ESB he captures Han and Leia.

You see. You made a statement. You even bolded it for emphasis. (The big size is me, just so you can see it and maybe jog that pea you call a brain) THEN you provide several points as to how this is TRUE. And this whole paragraph is to show what you feel to be proper villainy, and something that was lacking from the PT.
Now I know you thought this was a solid point, but that is where I come in.

You'll also note that this is not a "point about how the end of ANH is masterfully conceived".

In the original trilogy, characters are often forced into a fight. The Rebels are forced into attacking the Death Star because it discovered their base.

Except they AREN'T forced into attacking it. Leia makes the decision to lure the Death Star to the rebel base. She knows the Millenium Falcon is being tracked. Please watch the movie.

Luke is forced to duel Vader at Cloud City when he falls into his trap. Before a fight, the story makes sure we understand what's at stake.

Luke is NOT forced to fight Vader on Cloud City. He CHOOSES to confront Vader. He is goaded into it by something he is not 100% sure is happening and against the advice of Yoda. And act for which he later apologizes for. Please watch the movies.

In ANH Vader destroys Alderaan,

Tarkin destroys Alderaan. It is his idea and he carries it out. Please watch the movies.

Obi-Wan

Something which Obi-Wan ALLOWED to happen.

in ESB he captures Han and Leia.

Something he needed Boba Fett to make happen, and something which he had, on his own, been unable to accomplish.

Now you can argue until you are blue in your acne covered face, but what you wrote was what you remembered from the movies. What I responded with is what actually happened in the movies. All of your points that you use to base your overall point on are WRONG. To a T they are incorrect. You couldn't even get right who destroyed Alderaan.

Now answer me this. If all your base points are wrong, how can your overall point be correct?

Vader in ANH did just as little as you claim Darth Maul did in TPM. Yes he had more lines, but lets look at FACTS. Vader shows up and barks out some orders, he strangles a guy, then he strangles another guy, then he fights Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan lets him kill him. The he blows up a couple of X-Wings and B-Wings before he is defeated by a secondary hero.
Darth Maul shows up and does nothing. Then he talks about revenge on the Jedi. Then he goes and tracks the Jedi, then he attacks Qui-Gon who narrowly escapes. Then he confronts the Jedi again and kills one, before he is killed by a secondary hero.

Outside of the strangling, they are pretty much on par with each other action wise. But overall, they are tracking the heroes. They attack one hero, the hero escapes, they attack more heroes, kill a hero(es), secondary hero defeats them.

[Havok]

Lets go back again, because I missed this somehow...

Guess you missed the part where they fight in the desert of Tattooine outside of Mos Espa.

Do you really want to get into that part? I thought you were trying to defend The Phantom Menace. That sequence is one of the weirdest and most abrupt in the whole film. All of a sudden, with no preamble, there's a lightsaber fight! The absence of Darth Maul's character development is palpable in this scene.

You mean aside from Sidious telling Maul to go kill the Jedi after Maul tells Sidious where they are (The only dialogue Maul has in the whole movie and you forget what he says? The way you harp on that, one would figure you would remember it. ) Then Maul landing on Tattooine, sending out his seeker droids, and Lucas constantly showing the droids in scenes trying to find the Jedi, UNTIL WITHOUT WARNING!!! Maul attacks the Jedi. GASP! What did he do that for? How abrupt.

And I like how you classify Gandalf's struggle, "urgent" (a race to destroy the one ring before Sauron enslaves middle earth) and yet classify Qui-Gon's struggle as "sort of" (a race to destroy/discover the Sith before they plunge an entire GALAXY into darkness). I mean, fuck, if you can't see the parallels between the Sith and Sauron (The greatest evil the world/galaxy has ever seen who is returning to conquer, destroy and enslave the world/galaxy after being gone and thought dead/extinct for over a thousand years) then you are about as dumb as you make yourself seem.

Tolkien does a pretty good job of bringing out the urgency of the quest even though the protagonists never "meet" Sauron. He uses Saruman, orcs, the corruption of Denethor and Gollum, and the Ring itself, to show how Sauron is evil and what the consequences would be if Frodo fails.

The audience needs a reason to identify the villain AS a villain. Star Wars made sure we understood that the Empire and Vader were evil, by showing them doing evil, murderous things.

Darth Maul doesn't do a single villainous thing. He doesn't even do the stereotypic B-movie villain thing and like kick a puppy or something. He is a complete non entity. He's just a guy who shows up a few times in the movie and attacks the Jedi with a double lightsaber.

I like how in TPM, Maul has to commit EVERY villainous act to be evil yet, in Lord of the Rings, Sauron gets to use orcs, corrupted people, black riders etc. etc.,to show his evilness. I mean, you do realize numbnuts, that MAUL IS NOT THE FUCKING ANALOG FOR SAURON right? Oh wait of course you don't. Maul = Black Riders. Does that make more sense to you know? Of course it doesn't.

How many films with Nazis are there where they show Hitler doing anything 'evil'?

OK take Raiders of the Lost Ark. We never see Hitler, but the movie still makes it clear that the Nazis are evil. They are trying to steal a weapon that will let them conquer the world. We meet Toht and see that he is a crazy sadist. The Nazis trash Marion's place. They shoot innocent people in Cairo and kidnap Marion. They try to poison Indy. They mistreat the dig workers. There's a big shirtless Nazi who enjoys getting into fistfights. Finally the Nazis try to bury Indy and Marion alive.

I'd say Spielberg and Lucas managed to stuff the movie with examples of Nazis doing evil stuff. So even if you are watching this movie on Pluto and don't know squat about Nazis, the movie shows you that Hitler's team are the villains.

And I would say that Lucas stuffs the movie with examples of Sidious doing evil stuff as I have shown, but then, I am not a blind, idiotic Lucas basher that got butt hurt because the PT didn't live up to his itty bitty precious expectations.

SHOW not TELL.

The Phantom Menace TELLS us that the villains are "villains." Do the supposed villains do anything evil? Well I guess you could say they invade Naboo? But we never see the consequences of this, like casualties, or prison camps or whatever. We hardly see any civilian Nabooites at all, so there isn't any human interest in the fact that their planet got conquered.

My gawd is the 'I hate Lucas' bias just dripping off this post or what? Can you not see the double standard you are judging TPM on? Wow.

So Sidious having the Trade Fed leaders, blockade a planet, gas the heroes, attack the heroes, land an invasion army, capture the Queen isn't evil? How about then sending his minion to track, attack and kill the Jedi? Not evil? I mean, can you just listen to yourself?

[Loup Garou]

So Sidious having the Trade Fed leaders, blockade a planet, gas the heroes, attack the heroes, land an invasion army, capture the Queen isn't evil? How about then sending his minion to track, attack and kill the Jedi? Not evil? I mean, can you just listen to yourself?

:sigh:

When we don't know anything about him, it's incredibly difficult for me to give a shit about him as a villain. For all I know (going into the movie without any foreknowledge) he has a legit grudge with the planet of naboo.

On top of that, I have no idea why the trade federation is doing anything this guy says. If some creepy hologram guy called me up and said "Go blockade this planet for me and prepare to invade it with a horde of borderline useless droids" I'd probably say "No" or "screw you" or "why the hell should I?"

And to be perfectly honest with ourselves, palpatine basicly had no real power in TPM; he was senator of a podunk world that nobody really cared about and had a secret apprentice sith. At best he can try and sic Maul on them but at that point I'd be calling up the jedi to have them kick the shit out of maul and pointing out that there is a creepy old sith guy out their.

[Havok]

So Sidious having the Trade Fed leaders, blockade a planet, gas the heroes, attack the heroes, land an invasion army, capture the Queen isn't evil? How about then sending his minion to track, attack and kill the Jedi? Not evil? I mean, can you just listen to yourself?

:sigh:

When we don't know anything about him, it's incredibly difficult for me to give a shit about him as a villain. For all I know (going into the movie without any foreknowledge) he has a legit grudge with the planet of naboo.

On top of that, I have no idea why the trade federation is doing anything this guy says. If some creepy hologram guy called me up and said "Go blockade this planet for me and prepare to invade it with a horde of borderline useless droids" I'd probably say "No" or "screw you" or "why the hell should I?"

And to be perfectly honest with ourselves, palpatine basicly had no real power in TPM; he was senator of a podunk world that nobody really cared about and had a secret apprentice sith. At best he can try and sic Maul on them but at that point I'd be calling up the jedi to have them kick the shit out of maul and pointing out that there is a creepy old sith guy out their.

Oh really, and what did you know about Darth Vader at the beginning of Star Wars?

Shut the fuck up idiot. That is really all the response drivel like this deserves.

[Loup Garou]

So Sidious having the Trade Fed leaders, blockade a planet, gas the heroes, attack the heroes, land an invasion army, capture the Queen isn't evil? How about then sending his minion to track, attack and kill the Jedi? Not evil? I mean, can you just listen to yourself?

:sigh:

When we don't know anything about him, it's incredibly difficult for me to give a shit about him as a villain. For all I know (going into the movie without any foreknowledge) he has a legit grudge with the planet of naboo.

On top of that, I have no idea why the trade federation is doing anything this guy says. If some creepy hologram guy called me up and said "Go blockade this planet for me and prepare to invade it with a horde of borderline useless droids" I'd probably say "No" or "screw you" or "why the hell should I?"

And to be perfectly honest with ourselves, palpatine basicly had no real power in TPM; he was senator of a podunk world that nobody really cared about and had a secret apprentice sith. At best he can try and sic Maul on them but at that point I'd be calling up the jedi to have them kick the shit out of maul and pointing out that there is a creepy old sith guy out their.

Oh really, and what did you know about Darth Vader at the beginning of Star Wars?

Shut the fuck up idiot. That is really all the response drivel like this deserves.

Except vader actually did things in ANH, like interrogate leia with a creepy droid, choke the captain with one hand and leave him hanging in the air, force choke a guy, shoot down multiple rebel star fighters, kill obi-wan, attack a ship that was way smaller then his...

This is all stuff that I can think of inside of 15 seconds.

By contrast Sidious... is a creepy hologram in TPM.

I await your rebuttal with baited breath, oh great and mightily inbred Havok.

[Darth Tedious]

In fact, for all we know, in the events leading up to ANH, Alderaan shot first. I mean, seriously, the Tantive IV was a 'consular ship'? Where was their ambassador? Vader was making a legit point. For a vessel on a 'diplomatic mission' to a 'pacifist world', those Rebel Scum on board sure were armed to the teeth...

Honestly, there are enough criticisms of the PT that can be made without using comparisons to the OT (that are entirely flawed by the complete ignorance they show of the events in both trilogies).

[Darth Tedious]

choke the captain with one hand and leave him hanging in the air

WTF?!? He threw him to the floor! Get it right, FFS. You have seen ANH, right?

[emersonlakeandbalmer]

LoL, took about two seconds for me to remember the droves of gangsters he waded through on Tatooine at the Sallac pit.

Tattooine. Above the Sarlacc pit.

And it took me two more seconds to remember Luke getting wrapped up by Boba Fett and shot in his robot hand. Sure just wadded through them.

You mean aside from the Sith, that kill one of the two Jedi we follow in the movies and almost kills the other? OK. And the TPM was a vehicle to show the Jedi in their PRIME. There is a reason that THEY were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. Because THEY were the formidable enemies. My fucking gawd why does this shit need to be fucking explained.

It’s always a good sign of screen writing when your main characters has ONE creditable threat. In the form of a sith lord who is some how less than a one dimensional character. Sure, this all might be true with your suspension of disbelief logic, but it doesn’t make for good cinematic storytelling. I have some film critique books I could loan you, I’ll leave them with my mom so you can pick them up next time you’re in the mood to bone some more hot 68 year old pussy.

Which makes it tragic for every Gungan death. Or are you saying that all the people who died in the PT, when after watching the OT we know they shouldn't have had to, not tragic to you?

It hard for the Gungan death toll to have the appropriate emotional weight when Jar-Jar turns everything into a shitty digital buster keaton shtick.

Oh, I admit that the battle of Endor was more tragic and emotional than Naboo, that doesn't mean that the battle of Naboo isn't without tension. Again, I think there is a disconnect where people think defenders of the PT are saying that they are awesome movies of all time and/or better than the OT. Not necessarily the truth.

I think we can both agree on this point. Most people on this thread are just pushed to their polar extreme when arguing. I do think the PT are bad films, but I wouldn’t begrudge someone for liking something I think is bad. I’ve said before I love Point Break, but anyone could go to town on some of the shitty storytelling aspects of that movie.

I think part of RLM critique was to compare the PT to OT to show how much Lucas’s storytelling/film making had changed and not for the better. So much of the PT is about the great visual FX but very little of those FX are used to help tell a good story. In the OT Lucas was pulling from old WW2 dogfights and combining them with state of the art special FX to create something that felt real and identifiable to the audience. He used and credited Joseph Campbell monomyth with much of the success of ANH. The PT have cold characters who when not fighting in a digital emotionless actions scene are sharing awful dialogue while sitting on a couch. Any storytelling he learned from Campbell seemed long forgotten.

Your point was to try to refute my saying that the Stormtroopers were just as inept as Battle droids. Which is why I pointed out that while the battle droids defeated an organized, civilized army with energy weapons and shields, the Stormtroopers were defeated by, as you say, teddy bears, with rocks and bows and arrows. Clearly, the Stormtroopers are far MORE inept than the battle droids based on what we saw in not only TPM, but the rest of the PT vs the OT where the Stormtroopers couldn't hit the broadside of a fucking shield bunker.

It’s hard to defend the Empire's best legion losing to a bunch of teddy bears. You’re absolutely right and it’s why so many people hated the crass commercialism of the Ewoks. However, our heroes still had to sneak by, hide from and needed the help of an army of stuffed animals to defeat the stormtroopers. In TPM our main characters are never really concerned about the footsoldiers. This creates zero tension. See if you can come out from inside your suspension of disbelief bubble and look at anything from a storytelling perspective… just once.

Wait but you are a storyteller. Tell us all more about this nasty ass you’re crushing and wanting to forget.

[Loup Garou]

choke the captain with one hand and leave him hanging in the air

WTF?!? He threw him to the floor! Get it right, FFS. You have seen ANH, right?

...after he held him up with one hand. I didn't mean to emlpy that he created a permanent force hold with him being stuck in a permanent state of null gravity, his corpse a testament to the fate of all those who challenge the empire.

Honestly, there are enough criticisms of the PT that can be made without using comparisons to the OT (that are entirely flawed by the complete ignorance they show of the events in both trilogies)

I was being sarcastic with the legit gripe bit, but the fact remains we have no idea what his origional game plan was or why the Trade Federation was doing everything he says.

[Havok]

Gawd you are dumb. SO WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HIM? That by the end of the movie he did evil stuff? Don't look now dipshit, but that is what you know about Sidious at the end of TPM. You guys really need to get your arguments straight.

All the Emperor does in the first two OT movies and 2/3 of the last one, is be a creepy hologram and order people around. He's SOOO evil!!
All Sidious does in the first two PT movies and 2/3 of the last one, is be a creepy hologram and order people around. He's SOOO confusing??

All Vader does in SW is chase the good guys, killing one along the way, captures a princess, choke some guys and have a sword fight and get defeated by a secondary hero. HE IS THE EPITOME OF EVIL!!
All Maul does in TPM is chase the good guys, killing one along the way, try to capture a princess, attack a Jedi, have a sword fight and get defeated by a secondary hero. I'M NOT SURE IF THIS GUY IS A BAD GUY OR NOT HE DOESN'T DO ENOUGH!!

Are you really going to sit there and tell me YOU COULD NOT FIGURE OUT THAT SIDIOUS AND MAUL WERE BAD GUYS? Is that what you are saying?

And can you really not figure out WHY they are doing what Sidious says from the line "We should not have made this bargain."? Really?? I mean, it couldn't be that they entered into an agreement with him for some sort of... *gasp* personal gain?!? No way! Call the Jedi!

Man, I bet even Bone2Pick and Emerson are going to get a kick out of your posts.

[Darth Tedious]

choke the captain with one hand and leave him hanging in the air

WTF?!? He threw him to the floor! Get it right, FFS. You have seen ANH, right?

...after he held him up with one hand. I didn't mean to emlpy that he created a permanent force hold with him being stuck in a permanent state of null gravity, his corpse a testament to the fate of all those who challenge the empire.

Well , that's okay then. Although, it would have been a cool image....

Honestly, there are enough criticisms of the PT that can be made without using comparisons to the OT (that are entirely flawed by the complete ignorance they show of the events in both trilogies)

I was being sarcastic with the legit gripe bit, but the fact remains we have no idea what his origional game plan was or why the Trade Federation was doing everything he says.

Given that Palpy had to alter his plan of the fly, it's safe to say we'll never know what it originally was. I think it's pretty safe to assume that he had given assurences to the TF that the taxes would be lifted, allowing them to trade profiteer to their heart's content again. The actual negotiation of the agreement, as fascinating as it would have been, would most likely have taken up a lot of screen time and been boring as shit for the kiddilinks.

[Darth Tedious]

All the Emperor does in the first two OT movies and 2/3 of the last one, is be a creepy hologram and order people around.

Now, now. The Emperor makes no appearence at all in ANH. His only action is the dissolution of the Senate, and all we get is Tarkin telling us about it.

[Loup Garou]

If I ever need someone to fight strawmen I'll be sure to call you havok.

The difference between maul and vader is vast. Vader actually does things and displays a range of emotions. he is what we call "a developed character". By the time that maul was introduced, vader had successfully assaulted a ship, captured a princess and was very close to capturing the plans for the death star. He has been established as being a capable leader and enforcer of the will of the Imperium.

By contrast, we know very little about maul as a character other then he hates jedi and wields a double lightsabre.

As to your arguements about the emperor in other films: irrelivent, since I'm talking about him in TPM where I know he's supposed to be evil but I don't have a clue what his game plan was for invading Naboo. I know what he wound up getting out of it (chancelorship), but that came off as him seizing an opportunity that presented itself when his first plan (naboo is invaded) falls through.

And can you really not figure out WHY they are doing what Sidious says from the line "We should not have made this bargain."? Really?? I mean, it couldn't be that they entered into an agreement with him for some sort of... *gasp* personal gain?!? No way! Call the Jedi

So what is this bargain? Cuz yeah I've seen the movie more then enough times and I have no idea what they were getting out of this. I know it must be something good, but at no point do they say what it is. Money? Technology? Something to make their legion of droids not useless? A coffee table? Coffee?

[Loup Garou]

I was being sarcastic with the legit gripe bit, but the fact remains we have no idea what his origional game plan was or why the Trade Federation was doing everything he says.

Given that Palpy had to alter his plan of the fly, it's safe to say we'll never know what it originally was. I think it's pretty safe to assume that he had given assurences to the TF that the taxes would be lifted, allowing them to trade profiteer to their heart's content again. The actual negotiation of the agreement, as fascinating as it would have been, would most likely have taken up a lot of screen time and been boring as shit for the kiddilinks.

I didn't neccesarily need to see a 30 minute negotiation over the terms of a deal with the sith (though, it would have been more intriguing then ZOMG NASCAR ON TATOOINE) but the motivation for palpatine and the trade federation has always been one of those things that ate at me. Even if they had just made an off hand remark like

as you have removed the senators who opposed us we shall take this world for you oh mighty sith lord

These are the kinds of things that bug me about TPM, not Jar jar (he is irritating but he's easy for me to wrap my brain around and doesn't leave too many questions on the table).

[AdmBone2Pick]

Where, pray tell, have you established the alleged 'filmic mastery' of the OT, and by what standards did you determine it, pray tell? The OT was massively popular. Guess what-so was the PT.

"Pray tell"? Are you a parody of a dork? You and the guy who has to include a reference to how he's getting some from somebody's mom, in every post.

Have a nice day you acne-speckled virgins

[Bakustra]

If I ever need someone to fight strawmen I'll be sure to call you havok.

The difference between maul and vader is vast. Vader actually does things and displays a range of emotions. he is what we call "a developed character". By the time that maul was introduced, vader had successfully assaulted a ship, captured a princess and was very close to capturing the plans for the death star. He has been established as being a capable leader and enforcer of the will of the Imperium.

By contrast, we know very little about maul as a character other then he hates jedi and wields a double lightsabre.

As to your arguements about the emperor in other films: irrelivent, since I'm talking about him in TPM where I know he's supposed to be evil but I don't have a clue what his game plan was for invading Naboo. I know what he wound up getting out of it (chancelorship), but that came off as him seizing an opportunity that presented itself when his first plan (naboo is invaded) falls through.

And can you really not figure out WHY they are doing what Sidious says from the line "We should not have made this bargain."? Really?? I mean, it couldn't be that they entered into an agreement with him for some sort of... *gasp* personal gain?!? No way! Call the Jedi

So what is this bargain? Cuz yeah I've seen the movie more then enough times and I have no idea what they were getting out of this. I know it must be something good, but at no point do they say what it is. Money? Technology? Something to make their legion of droids not useless? A coffee table? Coffee?

How is it possible for you to be so wrong? Vader is not a developed character in ANH. Not one bit. He's flat as a board. He looks menacing and he comes into direct conflict with the heroes near the middle and at the climax.

Guess what? All of that applies to Maul. The significant differences are that Vader gets more lines than Maul does, that he gets to kill a few people, and that the effects of the conflicts are reversed. All we know about Vader as a character in ANH is that he's a devout believer in the Force and is willing to kill for what he wants. A whole two things, compared to the one thing we know about Maul. Yeah, that's the makings of a deep and subtle character right there! Villains also don't need to be characters to be effective, either, but that's a little beyond your ability to grasp, I think.

You also don't get what Havok was talking about with his comparison. His point is that you're castigating the prequels for "flaws" that the original trilogy demonstrated! We don't know what the original game plan was for finding the rebel base in ANH- yes, they ended up tracking the heroes, but that's clearly a response to their earlier failures. But nobody cares about that.

As to your last comment, we never find out what's in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, either. I guess that Quentin "Il Diabolo" Tarantino must be one of the worst directors of our times, and Pulp Fiction one of the worst movies. Or maybe the specific details don't matter to the movie, much like Christopher Marlowe didn't, in Dr. Faustus, regale the audience with half an hour of the terms of the contract with Mephistopheles.

Where, pray tell, have you established the alleged 'filmic mastery' of the OT, and by what standards did you determine it, pray tell? The OT was massively popular. Guess what-so was the PT.

"Pray tell"? Are you a parody of a dork? You and the guy who has to include a reference to how he's getting some from somebody's mom, in every post.

Have a nice day you acne-speckled virgins

Schoolyard taunts aren't effective against people over the age of ten, you realize. I understand that that's your level of emotional development, but do try to keep up.

[Justice]

Where, pray tell, have you established the alleged 'filmic mastery' of the OT, and by what standards did you determine it, pray tell? The OT was massively popular. Guess what-so was the PT.

"Pray tell"? Are you a parody of a dork? You and the guy who has to include a reference to how he's getting some from somebody's mom, in every post.

Have a nice day you acne-speckled virgins

... says the guy who joined a message board solely to defend an internet critic? You must get some quality pussy, man.

[Loup Garou]

Vader is not a developed character in ANH. Not one bit. He's flat as a board. He looks menacing and he comes into direct conflict with the heroes near the middle and at the climax.

Guess what? All of that applies to Maul. The significant differences are that Vader gets more lines than Maul does, that he gets to kill a few people, and that the effects of the conflicts are reversed. All we know about Vader as a character in ANH is that he's a devout believer in the Force and is willing to kill for what he wants. A whole two things, compared to the one thing we know about Maul. Yeah, that's the makings of a deep and subtle character right there!

Except that since we see him doing more and taking an active part in the movie we LEARN things about him. We learn that he has a deep connection to the force and that he had a relationship with Ben. We learn that he is either the partner of or subservient to Grand Moff tarkin. We learn that he is skeptical about the death star's capabilities.

Now I'm not saying that you need a shit ton of dialogue to develop a character (though in the case of Vader it was somewhat neccesary since he had no facial expression); Kurt Russel did an excellent job in the movie soldier just by subtle facial expression, but Maul just lacks anything to help give him any sort of character.

Villains also don't need to be characters to be effective, either, but that's a little beyond your ability to grasp, I think.

If they're supposed to be this great and massive threat then I kind of expect them to have more then a few shots of them sneaking about. Otherwise they're little more then a lame thug.

You also don't get what Havok was talking about with his comparison. His point is that you're castigating the prequels for "flaws" that the original trilogy demonstrated! We don't know what the original game plan was for finding the rebel base in ANH- yes, they ended up tracking the heroes, but that's clearly a response to their earlier failures. But nobody cares about that.

It's pretty clear that they were going to blow up the planet/bombard the hell out of it (or was yavin a moon? can't remember off the top of my head) since the empire had a zero tolerance policy with regards to rebels. Hell, they threatened to blow up alderan to get leia to talk and then did it anyways.