Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Galvatron]

Another thought I just had: Disney could make one of their anthology movies about Obi-Wan Kenobi and his baby mama starring Ewan McGregor that takes place after ROTS. This could be released after the reveal in Episode VIII that Rey is not only Luke's daughter, but Obi-Wan's granddaughter as well.

[Borgholio]

Another thought I just had: Disney could make one of their anthology movies about Obi-Wan Kenobi and his baby mama starring Ewan McGregor that takes place after ROTS. This could be released after the reveal in Episode VIII that Rey is not only Luke's daughter, but Obi-Wan's granddaughter as well.

I have to admit, that could explain why she's as strong in the Force as she was. The child of a Kenobi and a Skywalker...although it might seem a bit too contrived.

[Knife]

In ANH it was explained that the Empire doesn't view a little fighter as a threat to the Death Star, so it lacks defenses in this regard. Hence the X-wings were able to slip through the shield and attack.

While in TFA, Han basically just said 'no problem, I'll simply hyper-jump through the planetary shield'.

And once you can do this, you can use strategic missiles to destroy planets. Or you use a tactical missile to just destroy the shield generator and then invade. So why would you need a Death Start or Starkiller Base? There simply is no point to this anymore.

Again, for all we know they have such missiles but that doesn't mean they do not, or could not, have a purpose in a larger more strategic weapon like a Deathstar/Starkiller.

Sure they are. But it contradicts what I have seen, that a Jedi needs training. This kicked me out of SoD, so I don't like it.

Seems subjective, and I think you are confusing 'what I've seen' and 'what I wanted'.

And boring to watch for me. There is no tension this way.

Subjective again I suppose but just below you reiterate that Disney should have made a new story instead of ape ANH but bitch about one the biggest glaring changes they made in characterizations. It is humorously ironic.

No, Disney should have created a new story. Recycling a plot, but making the villain a joke doesn't cut it.

Meh, can't please everyone. You wanted different stuff, but the stuff that was different you don't like. Look, as my first post in this thread said, I found a couple things I didn't like either, but overall the movie was enjoyable. Now if 8 goes on and does not explain or explore in character growth, I very may agree with you, but we've just seen the opening act in this story so...

[Channel72]

- Finn and Han's "we'll use the Force!" exchange.

Yeah, that in particular was pretty funny. I laughed when I heard that line. "That's not how the force works!" Harrison Ford is still awesome.

When was there a joke or funny exchange in the prequels that ever fucking landed? Jar Jar stepping in poop? Jar Jar breaking something? Sure, if you're into slapstick and toilet humor (i.e. you're a child), I suppose TPM has you covered. I think AotC got one laugh out of the audience with Obi-Wan mind-tricking the deathstick dealer? I'm reaching.

Yeah, the juvenile humor in TPM especially is pretty grating, and totally different from the tone of the OT. I remember watching TPM with my younger sister, who was a teenager at the time. During the scene when Jar Jar is like, juggling shit and tripping around in the background while Anakin talks to Padme, her reaction was something like "is this movie supposed to be serious??"

[Galvatron]

- Finn and Han's "we'll use the Force!" exchange.

Yeah, that in particular was pretty funny. I laughed when I heard that line. "That's not how the force works!" Harrison Ford is still awesome.

I thought he said "We'll use some Force!" That made it even funnier to me.

[Grumman]

Oh please. The worst SW villain ever? Really? Yes, the villain who actually has a connection to the main cast...

Kylo Ren's connection to the main cast is the worst thing about him. Kylo Ren is Abrams saying: "Your favourite heros - all three of them - raised a serial killer who murdered billions of people."

It was shit when Legacy of the Force did it, and it's shit now.

[Galvatron]

Oh please. The worst SW villain ever? Really? Yes, the villain who actually has a connection to the main cast...

Kylo Ren's connection to the main cast is the worst thing about him. Kylo Ren is Abrams saying: "Your favourite heros - all three of them - raised a serial killer who murdered billions of people."

It was shit when Legacy of the Force did it, and it's shit now.

You must really not like Darth Vader either then, I take it.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh please. The worst SW villain ever? Really? Yes, the villain who actually has a connection to the main cast...

Kylo Ren's connection to the main cast is the worst thing about him. Kylo Ren is Abrams saying: "Your favourite heros - all three of them - raised a serial killer who murdered billions of people."

It was shit when Legacy of the Force did it, and it's shit now.

Resurgent Empire, evil Solo kids, new superweapons, its all the hallmarks of the EU.

Here comes the new Star Wars same as the old one.

[Purple]

I really do not understand why people have a problem with the new SW taking things from the old EU. I really do not. If the things they take are good it does not matter where they come from. Equally if they are bad it once again does not matter where they come from. Seriously, you are like anti-old-eu racists.

Also I personally like the plot of this one. Especially the evil son thing. It fits the theme that no matter what you do the dark side happens.

[Grumman]

Kylo Ren's connection to the main cast is the worst thing about him. Kylo Ren is Abrams saying: "Your favourite heros - all three of them - raised a serial killer who murdered billions of people."

It was shit when Legacy of the Force did it, and it's shit now.

You must really not like Darth Vader either then, I take it.

Darth Vader is Luke's father, not his son. That's an important difference, because Darth Vader was not a consequence of Luke's failure to not raise a monster. The old Jedi failed, yes, but that was a part of their role from the beginning and not just stapled on at the end to justify a sequel.

[Crazedwraith]

I really do not understand why people have a problem with the new SW taking things from the old EU. I really do not. If the things they take are good it does not matter where they come from. Equally if they are bad it once again does not matter where they come from. Seriously, you are like anti-old-eu racists.

Mostly I'm annoyed because people bitched endlessly about the EU and those things happening in them. And yet it's fine if it's the new film doing them (and doing them worse.)

Also I personally like the plot of this one. Especially the evil son thing. It fits the theme that no matter what you do the dark side happens.

That really shouldn't be the theme at all.

[Purple]

That really shouldn't be the theme at all.

It is though. If you look at their personality profiles both of our evil sith are pretty much the same. Youth with a lot of power but little experience who idolize an evil father figure and are whiny teenage jerks. I would not at all be surprised if it turns out that this kid fell because Luke would not put him on the new Jedi Council or something.

[Captain Seafort]

Darth Vader is Luke's father, not his son. That's an important difference, because Darth Vader was not a consequence of Luke's failure to not raise a monster.

Vader was a consequence of Kenobi's failure to not raise a monster. Frankly, Luke's failure as a teacher is far more understandable, given that he was rushed though his training in a few months at best, probably focussed on the more directly combat-relevant aspects, whereas Kenobi had couple of decades of far broader training under his belt.

[Elfdart]

I have a tough time taking seriously any criticism of TFA being worse than the prequels on the basis of 'not enough exposition of the political situation'. The notion that this is more important than TFA's far more charismatic and likable leads, far superior chemistry between them, far more exciting, well written* (in terms of dialog alone it is better than any of the prequels) script, a villain who we actually have a reason to give a shit about from the start (to name a few things) - simply doesn't wash with me. The prequels gave us one movie which was a near total waste of time (Phantom Menace) and weighed down with a truly miscast / poorly-directed? child actor (a decision that totally undermined any chance of getting drama out of a great many scenes, nevermind abandoning the chance for something cool like mirroring the danger of training Luke too old in TESB - Anakin was too old at fucking eight), a second film with possibly one of the worst executed love stories in mainstream cinema I can remember, and a third film left scrambling to pick up the pieces and being almost too little, too late.

Without context it means zilch. ANH gave you plenty of it (enough for three movies in fact):

[*]the opening crawl
[*]Obi-Wan tells Luke about the Force, the Empire, the Jedi, Vader
[*]Tarkin and other Imperial leaders give an overview of the military situation and the relative strengths of both sides

From those three scenes you have a good idea that the Empire has the upper hand, but the Rebellion has some means to resist. In TESB, you find out that there are places in the galaxy that the Empire does not control (and not just barren planets like Hoth), and that at least some of the people in those places, who are merely trying to stay out of the war, are willing to take up arms against the Empire. In ROTJ, you see a Rebel fleet made up of warships crewed by aliens that have not been seen in the previous episodes -showing that more inhabitants of the GFFA are willing to fight the Empire.

TFA gives you an opening crawl that makes no sense, and I had no idea if the First Order was an offshoot of the Empire, an Imperial client state, or a successor state. Are they Nazi Germany rising from the ashes of the German Empire and usurping the Weimar Republic? Are they El Salvador to the von Reagan-era US? Are they Cuba to a defunct Soviet Union? Or are they just wannabes like the neo-Nazis in Sum of All Fears who somehow got a nuke and used it? The relative strengths of each side is rather important. No, I'm not about to read a fucking book to get the information.

Is it more important than Daisey Ridley being cute as a button and likable? Of course it is. I like Game of Thrones even though the main characters are very unlikable. Ditto for The Wild Bunch, Major Dundee, The Godfather, and numerous other films. What those characters do, and why they do it is more important to me than whether an actor turns the charm up to 11.

And in particular it is absolutely true that Anakin of AotC and RotS is a fairly unlikable character, which undermines the entire enterprise.

Darth Vader is supposed to be likable?

Agreed - we've had decades to apologise for Episode 4's glaring narrative flaws**, and it deserves those apologies because its a great movie. I don't think TFA deserves less.

Because it's a great movie? I think not.

*Can anyone remember a single part of the prequels that was actually funny? As in, the cinema burst out in laughter (laughing with the movie, not at the movie). In TFA, every time I've seen it there have been big laughs at, off the top of my head:

- BB-8 attacking Finn;
- Finn's "I'm with the Resistance";
- BB-8 giving Finn the thumb's up;
- Rey's "that was lucky!" on Han's freighter;
- Han trying to slime his way out of the confrontation with the gangsters;
- Chewie and the medic; and
- Finn and Han's "we'll use the Force!" exchange.

We're supposed to argue about what's funny?

When was there a joke or funny exchange in the prequels that ever fucking landed? Jar Jar stepping in poop? Jar Jar breaking something? Sure, if you're into slapstick and toilet humor (i.e. you're a child), I suppose TPM has you covered. I think AotC got one laugh out of the audience with Obi-Wan mind-tricking the deathstick dealer? I'm reaching.

This one did, but internet neckbeards are not exactly well known for picking up on camp:

Unintentional laughs were big though. The midnight screening got a big laugh when someone in the audience called out "bye, Jar Jar!" in Padme's funeral scene. Then there was the audible groan that washed over the audience when Padme and Anakin were in their apartment and Padme said "I'm so much in love", that was kind of funny.

You guys remind me of Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy, when told something went over his head. I'll bet you also whine because the Adam West Batman wasn't "dark" or "serious".

**Like Leia comforting Luke about Obi-Wan's death - the old man who he's known for all of a day, while Leia is dealing with the apocalypse of her entire world, or Luke getting shitty at Han for not believing in the Force when he had literally never heard of the Force until earlier that day.

You're clutching at straws here.

[Elfdart]

That really shouldn't be the theme at all.

It is though. If you look at their personality profiles both of our evil sith are pretty much the same. Youth with a lot of power but little experience who idolize an evil father figure and are whiny teenage jerks. I would not at all be surprised if it turns out that this kid fell because Luke would not put him on the new Jedi Council or something.

Except Anakin was played by an actor who was 19 (and still looked and sounded like a 19-year-old for the following movie), while the actor playing Kylo Ren looks like he's in his thirties.

[Purple]

That really shouldn't be the theme at all.

It is though. If you look at their personality profiles both of our evil sith are pretty much the same. Youth with a lot of power but little experience who idolize an evil father figure and are whiny teenage jerks. I would not at all be surprised if it turns out that this kid fell because Luke would not put him on the new Jedi Council or something.

Except Anakin was played by an actor who was 19 (and still looked and sounded like a 19-year-old for the following movie), while the actor playing Kylo Ren looks like he's in his thirties.

You do realize that his fall is supposed to have happened years before the movie takes place, right?

[Channel72]

Darth Vader is supposed to be likable?

Um... yeah.

He is if we're supposed to care that he fell to the Dark Side and betrayed Obi Wan. As written, he didn't really "fall" to the Dark Side as much as sort of just embrace it. He was never really much of a "good guy" - he basically went from being a brooding whiny asshole to an openly murderous asshole.

I just don't get the point of the whole thing if Anakin was never really portrayed as a noble, likeable good guy (apart from when he was a child, I guess.) I mean... it's supposed to be like, a tragedy, right? Apparently the Clone Wars cartoon creators felt the same, since they tried to make Anakin an actual likeable heroic figure.

[Grumman]

And in particular it is absolutely true that Anakin of AotC and RotS is a fairly unlikable character, which undermines the entire enterprise.

Darth Vader is supposed to be likable?

I agree with Channel72 here - Anakin Skywalker falling to the Dark Side needs to be a tragedy, not just for the sake of the prequels but also for Return of the Jedi. The Emperor's efforts to turn Luke to the Dark Side don't work well narratively if we know the only reason it worked on Anakin is because Anakin was already a budding serial killer.

[Vympel]

No, no you're not getting it. Kylo Ren obviously sucked because he didn't have enough lightsabers. He needed at least 4, possibly 6 lightsabers, all of different colors. And he didn't do enough backflips also. What the fuck was up with that? It's like, I paid to see backflips and lightsabers. Also could they at least have put in a fucking scene where he does a backflip while twirling 4 to 6 lightsabers? (And would it have fucking killed Abrams to put in some double-bladed lightsabers???) It's like I can't even understand Kylo Ren's motivations, because he doesn't have enough lightsabers. How am I supposed to understand that he's evil??? Yawn.

I'm thinking a better idea for a villain would be if he had a gun that shoots lightsabers. That way he can do backflips, while shooting lightsabers. That would help the audience understand that he's badass.

Thanks man - I genuinely LOL'd to myself

Without context it means zilch. ANH gave you plenty of it (enough for three movies in fact):

[*]the opening crawl
[*]Obi-Wan tells Luke about the Force, the Empire, the Jedi, Vader
[*]Tarkin and other Imperial leaders give an overview of the military situation and the relative strengths of both sides

From those three scenes you have a good idea that the Empire has the upper hand, but the Rebellion has some means to resist. In TESB, you find out that there are places in the galaxy that the Empire does not control (and not just barren planets like Hoth), and that at least some of the people in those places, who are merely trying to stay out of the war, are willing to take up arms against the Empire. In ROTJ, you see a Rebel fleet made up of warships crewed by aliens that have not been seen in the previous episodes -showing that more inhabitants of the GFFA are willing to fight the Empire.

TFA gives you an opening crawl that makes no sense, and I had no idea if the First Order was an offshoot of the Empire, an Imperial client state, or a successor state. Are they Nazi Germany rising from the ashes of the German Empire and usurping the Weimar Republic? Are they El Salvador to the von Reagan-era US? Are they Cuba to a defunct Soviet Union? Or are they just wannabes like the neo-Nazis in Sum of All Fears who somehow got a nuke and used it? The relative strengths of each side is rather important. No, I'm not about to read a fucking book to get the information.

How does the opening crawl make no sense:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen
from the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

Everything we need to know for the movie to work is in the opening crawl and the movie itself - the movie both shows us and tells us. It shows us the First Order is powerful, because it has a huge superweapon and parade grounds filled with thousands of stormtroopers and a fearsome military machine. It tells us the Republic supports the Resistance. Could we have used a scene where it was made more apparent the Republic doesn't fight the First Order directly? Sure, that wouldn't have hurt. But its not essential to understanding the plot.

Darth Vader is supposed to be likable?

Anakin Skywalker is supposed to be likable, yeah. That's what's supposed to make his fall to the dark side a tragedy. If you think the prequels were the story about "unlikable douchebag falls to the dark side" then are you surprised that they are widely disliked?

What did Obi-Wan say about Anakin in Episode 4?

He was a cunning warrior. And he was a good friend. Nevermind that the prequels never effectively show the latter. The half-hearted banter between Anakin and Obi-Wan about past adventures we've never seen (happens in both Episode 2 and 3) is washed away by Anakin being ill-tempered and entitled when we actually see him interact with Obi-Wan.

We're supposed to argue about what's funny?

Their shouldn't be an argument - TFA is easily funnier than all three prequels combined. The humor is simply better.

This one did, but internet neckbeards are not exactly well known for picking up on camp:

Yeah dude, I'm sure George Lucas intended his cosmic love story that forms Anakin's core motivation for his fall to be an object of mockery. Compare to TESB, when Han and Leia are kissing and C-3P0 comically interrupts them. One is funny and still sells the romance. The other is just bad romance.

You guys remind me of Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy, when told something went over his head. I'll bet you also whine because the Adam West Batman wasn't "dark" or "serious".

If every piece of shitty romance in AotC was meant to be funny, then surely no one in all cinema picked up on it. Frankly, this argument is simply not credible. A key part of Anakin's fall was his love for Padme, and you're saying that the scenes where the film was trying to convey that love were actually meant to be an object of fun?

You're clutching at straws here.

I don't see how.

[Elfdart]

Edit: Regarding pathetic vaillains, I have forgotten the Stormtrooper-general with the chrome armor. You can just point a weapon at her, then she does everything you want. She should have said 'kill me if you want, but I won't lower the shield'. But of course she had to me as lousy a villain as the rest of the gang, so at least this is consistent.

What's really funny about that is how the media made such a big fuss over her as an advancement for female characters in the series, and how she's blazing a trail for...

What, exactly?

Being a villain with maybe a couple more lines and a minute more screen time than the officer in charge of Princess Leia's cell block in ANH? And one who is even more inept than any one of Pinky's henchmen?

[The Romulan Republic]

Supposedly Phasma will have a bigger role in the next film. I hope so.

[Gandalf]

What's really funny about that is how the media made such a big fuss over her as an advancement for female characters in the series, and how she's blazing a trail for...

What, exactly?

Being a villain with maybe a couple more lines and a minute more screen time than the officer in charge of Princess Leia's cell block in ANH? And one who is even more inept than any one of Pinky's henchmen?

Presumably increasing the count of female characters. Maybe she could be like Black Widow and be a perpetual supporting character in every story that involves the First Order.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think they really needed to add a token character with such a minor role to up their count of female characters. They already had three female characters with a substantive role, plus a bunch of minor ones.

[Vympel]

Wow, that's nice! Thank you so much!

I try and be even handed.

I think you got me wrong here: If a ship can hyperjump right through a planetary shield, so could a hyperspace missile.

Hence you wouldn't need any Death Star/ Starkiller Base, you could get rid of a planet via some missiles, even if it's shielded. So what's the point of this at all?

No, I understand, its just the kind of nerd nitpick that we indulge in as nerds, not an actual story telling flaw. If a story telling flaw revolves around inventing new weapons we've never seen before, its really not a big deal. It's like asking "what's the point of Jedi if I can just make a super battle assassin droid with forty shotguns for arms to kill them".

Yes, but I didn't feel the Force awakening, but a contradiction to the established SW canon. For such things, a Jedi needs training. Luke couldn't do jack shit without his training - Obi Wan had to guide him for the destruction of the first Death Star and also had to help him on Hooth.

So Luke needed Ben/Yoda, but Rey doesn't.

Of course she does. She doesn't have anywhere near the abilities that Kylo Ren has. She's learnt intuitively by example so far, and was helped along by fighting a grievously wounded, tired Kylo Ren.

Yes, let's see how they'll justify this bullshit.

Yeah, how bullshit was it that Obi-Wan and Yoda just sat around for 20 years doing fuck all, right?

Darth Maul at least showed determination and skill. Kylo Ren is just an annyoing brat.

Darth Maul was a walking dual-bladed lightsabre. Nothing more. A thoroughly uninteresting villain. Kylo Ren showed more determination and skill stopping Poe Dameron's blaster bolt in mid-air than Darth Maul did for an entire movie.

Dooku at least was a villain, not a tantrum-throwing child.

He was a stiff who did nothing. A villain, you say? What did he do that was villainous, exactly? I can't think of a single damn thing.

General Grievous at least was something new, not a baby-version of Tarkin.

LOL, please. He was just another walking spinning-lightsabre gimmick. An entirely non-threatening, pathetic figure who was intentionally written as constantly running away from a fight.

It's just the same old story again, nothing to see here. The SW universe is so full of potential, they should have done something new, something unexpected.

Its not the same old story at all. There are significant differences apparent already. It merely follows the same beats as the original film, which is in and of itself, not an entirely original movie, and which were aped (to far lesser effect) in Phantom Menace.

I don't think they really needed to add a token character with such a minor role to up their count of female characters. They already had three female characters with a substantive role, plus a bunch of minor ones.

She's back in Episode 8, so we'll see what happens there.

[Andy Wylde]

Edit: Regarding pathetic vaillains, I have forgotten the Stormtrooper-general with the chrome armor. You can just point a weapon at her, then she does everything you want. She should have said 'kill me if you want, but I won't lower the shield'. But of course she had to me as lousy a villain as the rest of the gang, so at least this is consistent.

What's really funny about that is how the media made such a big fuss over her as an advancement for female characters in the series, and how she's blazing a trail for...

What, exactly?

Being a villain with maybe a couple more lines and a minute more screen time than the officer in charge of Princess Leia's cell block in ANH? And one who is even more inept than any one of Pinky's henchmen?

Yeah Captian Phasma was a pretty whack ass character. I don't know why they hyped her up so much for? But if Finn is a result of being Shanghaied at birth and brainwashed into becoming a FO bad ass soldier, then I guess the way Captain Phasma turned out shouldn't be too much of a surprise.