StarDestroyer.Net BBS

As I understand it, the main limitation on Kinetic/Particle shields is that a force equal to that hitting the shield is being exerted upon the generator itself. Is there any particular reason that an inertial compensator couldn't be used to negate the thrust against the generator using SW technology?

consequences wrote:As I understand it, the main limitation on Kinetic/Particle shields is that a force equal to that hitting the shield is being exerted upon the generator itself. Is there any particular reason that an inertial compensator couldn't be used to negate the thrust against the generator using SW technology?

None that I can think of, no. It wouldn't surprise me if these two technologies were very close together, along with artificial gravity generation.

Then the force would be on the compensator. You have to pay the piper sooner or later.

A lot of people try to find ways to ignore conservation of momentum in collisions without really thinking about how absurd it is. The example I once gave regarding Dune shielding was that according to them, a man wearing a Dune shield could stand in front of a bullet train and it would just stop on a dime when it touched him; "absurdity" is actually an understatement.

Think of it this way: in a collision, the impact will knock the whole ship aside, even if only by an infinitesimal amount. So at some point, something has to basically grab the whole ship and shove it to one side. So the only question is: where are we grabbing the ship to perform this shove? Obviously, if it's a hit on armour, it would be at the point of impact. If it's a hit on a forcefield, it must be the forcefield generator. But no matter how you slice it, sooner or later the forces must add up. Dues must be paid. The banker gets his money.

with the shielding and the Compensator wouldn't the energy be dispursed for example a truama plate can stop a bullet and at the same time it despirses that shot across your chest so there is still the same force just on a wider area.

What if some of the force went toward deforming the projectile? Of course, a shield, assuming it is a conservative force field, wouldn't be able to just stop an incoming projectile; it would just keep pushing the projectile back.

I guess the other possibility is that, based on what we see happen when an asteroid hits a Star Destroyer's shield, is that the shield concentrates tidal forces at the point of impact, ripping the projectile apart.

consequences wrote:Is there any particular reason that an inertial compensator couldn't be used to negate the thrust against the generator using SW technology?

I don't believe the technobabble as been sufficiently well-defined to make a judgement on that point.

What one would want to do, however, is use the inertial compensator effectively in reverse such that all forces imparted on the shield generator are uniformly transferred to the entire volume of the ship. The end result would be that physical impacts would move entire ship but would not cause damage unless the force imparted was greater than the inertial compensator could cope with or if the reaction pushed the ship into another object.

consequences wrote:Is there any particular reason that an inertial compensator couldn't be used to negate the thrust against the generator using SW technology?

I don't believe the technobabble as been sufficiently well-defined to make a judgement on that point.

What one would want to do, however, is use the inertial compensator effectively in reverse such that all forces imparted on the shield generator are uniformly transferred to the entire volume of the ship. The end result would be that physical impacts would move entire ship but would not cause damage unless the force imparted was greater than the inertial compensator could cope with or if the reaction pushed the ship into another object.

Considering that we know they are capable of surviving multiple thousand G accelerations straight line, and operate within spitting distance of a neutron star, I thought it might be something worth trying.

Durandal wrote:What if some of the force went toward deforming the projectile? Of course, a shield, assuming it is a conservative force field, wouldn't be able to just stop an incoming projectile; it would just keep pushing the projectile back.

I guess the other possibility is that, based on what we see happen when an asteroid hits a Star Destroyer's shield, is that the shield concentrates tidal forces at the point of impact, ripping the projectile apart.

There are lots of ways the projectile's KE could be redirected toward its own destruction, but that wouldn't change the momentum problem.

Enlightenment wrote:What one would want to do, however, is use the inertial compensator effectively in reverse such that all forces imparted on the shield generator are uniformly transferred to the entire volume of the ship. The end result would be that physical impacts would move entire ship but would not cause damage unless the force imparted was greater than the inertial compensator could cope with or if the reaction pushed the ship into another object.

It may be possible to devise some kind of counter-measure, but I think that's missing the point. You see, the point is that there is a physical explanation for the fact that physical impacts are proportionally more dangerous than energy-weapon hits. And in a universe where ramming is a rare tactic, there would be no need to design or build complex countermeasures against a tactic that they simply aren't likely to see or worry about. Any piece of equipment you put into a ship must be justified; the more complex it is, and the more far-ranging its effects are, the more justification you need.

Darth Wong wrote:

Durandal wrote:What if some of the force went toward deforming the projectile? Of course, a shield, assuming it is a conservative force field, wouldn't be able to just stop an incoming projectile; it would just keep pushing the projectile back.

I guess the other possibility is that, based on what we see happen when an asteroid hits a Star Destroyer's shield, is that the shield concentrates tidal forces at the point of impact, ripping the projectile apart.

There are lots of ways the projectile's KE could be redirected toward its own destruction, but that wouldn't change the momentum problem.

Well, when have we ever seen an impact on a Star Destroyer that would be powerful enough to accelerate it in a noticeable fashion? It's a lot like a fly hitting the windshield of a moving car, I suppose. Even when the asteroid in TESB hit the bridge tower, the Star Destroyer kept moving, completely undisturbed. Could the complex mass in the Star Destroyer's hypermatter reactor have something to do with it?

Durandal wrote:Well, when have we ever seen an impact on a Star Destroyer that would be powerful enough to accelerate it in a noticeable fashion? It's a lot like a fly hitting the windshield of a moving car, I suppose. Even when the asteroid in TESB hit the bridge tower, the Star Destroyer kept moving, completely undisturbed. Could the complex mass in the Star Destroyer's hypermatter reactor have something to do with it?

I would liken it to an asteroid hitting the Earth. Technically, the entire Earth must be shifted slightly. But realistically, you'll never notice the movement. Mind you, you will notice certain events at the location of the momentum transfer

Darth Wong wrote: It may be possible to devise some kind of counter-measure, but I think that's missing the point. You see, the point is that there is a physical explanation for the fact that physical impacts are proportionally more dangerous than energy-weapon hits. And in a universe where ramming is a rare tactic, there would be no need to design or build complex countermeasures against a tactic that they simply aren't likely to see or worry about. Any piece of equipment you put into a ship must be justified; the more complex it is, and the more far-ranging its effects are, the more justification you need.

Actually they do have a potential countermeasure - tractor beams.

Or repulsors, for some vessels.

IIRC, in "Solo Command" an interdictor cruiser reversed its GRavity well projectors in order to rapidly push itself away from a ramming VSD. Doing the same with tractor beams or repulsors would probably be possible as well.

The example I once gave regarding Dune shielding was that according to them, a man wearing a Dune shield could stand in front of a bullet train and it would just stop on a dime when it touched him; "absurdity" is actually an understatement.

I don't know when you had a verses debate with a Dune person (that would have been fun to watch) but I had no idea anybody ever made that claim.

Heck, even in the Dune movie (David Lynch version) a person with a shield on could be knocked down, simply by physical strikes from another shielder person (punches, kicks, knife attacks). It wasn't like the shield stopped everything. All it did was prevent a person from being slashed by a fast moving blade (though they would still be knocked back) or stunned (but not killed) by a normal bullet (they have projectile throwers that fire "slow" projectiles to breach the shields).

It isn't claimed to be all-poweful at all.

I guess its somewhat similar to the personal shields in Jedi Knight series of games (now I know games aren't canon, but bear with me).

In those games, the personal shields are somewhat similar. In the first JK, they merely reduce the amount of damage taken from energy weapons and explosives. The player still gets knocked around as he would normally, though physical strikes (rifle butts, punches) go right through the shields, as does the Force.

In JK2 (Jedi Outcast) the shield takes the FULL BRUNT of the damage from everything except force attacks (which do direct damage to health). A bit of green glow is seen (something akin to the "bubble effect" seen in TNG, but not in a perfect ellipsoid) and the person is knocked back. Once the shield is destroyed, then normal damage occurs.

I can see what you're saying though, that even when we have a sci fi technology, it can still be fathomably unrealistic (like the supernova weapons).

Still, I think you've exaggerated the claims of the Shield apologists (if you haven't, I'd like to see the quotes, so I can laugh at them). ; )

Darth Wong wrote:Then the force would be on the compensator. You have to pay the piper sooner or later.

A lot of people try to find ways to ignore conservation of momentum in collisions without really thinking about how absurd it is. The example I once gave regarding Dune shielding was that according to them, a man wearing a Dune shield could stand in front of a bullet train and it would just stop on a dime when it touched him; "absurdity" is actually an understatement.

Think of it this way: in a collision, the impact will knock the whole ship aside, even if only by an infinitesimal amount. So at some point, something has to basically grab the whole ship and shove it to one side. So the only question is: where are we grabbing the ship to perform this shove? Obviously, if it's a hit on armour, it would be at the point of impact. If it's a hit on a forcefield, it must be the forcefield generator. But no matter how you slice it, sooner or later the forces must add up. Dues must be paid. The banker gets his money.

Hmm, KE could like be absorbed and turned into something else, but with momentum, thats not possible IIRC, it would place stress on the bracings of the shield generator.

Ofcourse, remember that laser-cannon weapons have bracings that can take gigatons of force, so the shield units are probably designed along the same vein, if not the entire ship is designed so that the shield generator would be most optimally placed.

Enlightenment wrote:What one would want to do, however, is use the inertial compensator effectively in reverse such that all forces imparted on the shield generator are uniformly transferred to the entire volume of the ship. The end result would be that physical impacts would move entire ship but would not cause damage unless the force imparted was greater than the inertial compensator could cope with or if the reaction pushed the ship into another object.

Funnily enough, thats what happens in TESB and in this novel:
========================
Pg. 160: Turbolasers struck the starboard side of the Vendetta, shoving it visibly to one side with the momentum of the blasts.
========================
-Champions of the Force

Darth Wong wrote:There are lots of ways the projectile's KE could be redirected toward its own destruction, but that wouldn't change the momentum problem.

Ah yes, I remembered correctly then.

Darth Wong wrote:It may be possible to devise some kind of counter-measure, but I think that's missing the point. You see, the point is that there is a physical explanation for the fact that physical impacts are proportionally more dangerous than energy-weapon hits. And in a universe where ramming is a rare tactic, there would be no need to design or build complex countermeasures against a tactic that they simply aren't likely to see or worry about. Any piece of equipment you put into a ship must be justified; the more complex it is, and the more far-ranging its effects are, the more justification you need.

Ofcourse particle weapons are in use, in Black Fleet Crisis we have a planetary rail gun taking down the shields of a New Republic Destroyer, the shield generators melted from the energy overload, and they where not torn out of their bracings, also we know that ancient battleships used large spine mounted massdrivers that could destroy planets(not as in shatter) as well as ships, they where obsoleted with the invention of shields.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Enlightenment wrote:What one would want to do, however, is use the inertial compensator effectively in reverse such that all forces imparted on the shield generator are uniformly transferred to the entire volume of the ship. The end result would be that physical impacts would move entire ship but would not cause damage unless the force imparted was greater than the inertial compensator could cope with or if the reaction pushed the ship into another object.

Funnily enough, thats what happens in TESB and in this novel:
========================
Pg. 160: Turbolasers struck the starboard side of the Vendetta, shoving it visibly to one side with the momentum of the blasts.
========================
-Champions of the Force

Fucking Hell. Kevin J. Anderson wrote that? I'm floored; it actually make sense.

Kurgan wrote:Still, I think you've exaggerated the claims of the Shield apologists (if you haven't, I'd like to see the quotes, so I can laugh at them). ; )

Not at all; they said that "conservation of momentum does not apply" to Dune shields. If that were true, then the bullet-train stopping instantly at a man's dune shield would be precisely the case. They just didn't think about how absurd it was to say that CoM does not apply.

Couldn't they use a momentum transfer system of some sort to spread it across the superstructure of the ship?

NecronLord wrote:Couldn't they use a momentum transfer system of some sort to spread it across the superstructure of the ship?

If the system itself applies counterforces against the action and also against the ship, it's still caught in the middle. Smush.

Unless you postulate that it can do so by creating third-party action/reaction and not directly getting involved, which is basically magic. That's what Force users seem to do.

Darth Wong wrote:

NecronLord wrote:Couldn't they use a momentum transfer system of some sort to spread it across the superstructure of the ship?

If the system itself applies counterforces against the action and also against the ship, it's still caught in the middle. Smush.

Unless you postulate that it can do so by creating third-party action/reaction and not directly getting involved, which is basically magic. That's what Force users seem to do.

No, I meant simply use repulsors and tractors to distribute it evenly across the vessel so it is undamaged, rather than ripping the generator away from its moorings.

NecronLord wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

NecronLord wrote:Couldn't they use a momentum transfer system of some sort to spread it across the superstructure of the ship?

If the system itself applies counterforces against the action and also against the ship, it's still caught in the middle. Smush.

Unless you postulate that it can do so by creating third-party action/reaction and not directly getting involved, which is basically magic. That's what Force users seem to do.

No, I meant simply use repulsors and tractors to distribute it evenly across the vessel so it is undamaged, rather than ripping the generator away from its moorings.

Kind of like a tractor beam mattress?

A lot of people try to find ways to ignore conservation of momentum in collisions without really thinking about how absurd it is. The example I once gave regarding Dune shielding was that according to them, a man wearing a Dune shield could stand in front of a bullet train and it would just stop on a dime when it touched him; "absurdity" is actually an understatement.

Would the kinetic energy actually be transfered to the man, since the shield is a bubble?