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In some galactic paradox, anakin replaces luke as he finds R2. the time dilation effect sets R2 and C3POs sort-term memory back so that they don't remember anything after getting captured by jawas. obiwan watched the displacement take place and comes up with a new plan,filling anakin in on what has happened to the jedi and the clone wars (negelicting to mention anakins part in the purge), he tells anakin that vader killed his past self in hopes of keeping anakin on the side of light. every other event goes off as normal, with vaders big secret at bespin being that he is anakin.

How does this affect the story, does anakin's abilities and different personality make a difference? Does the emperor succeed at ensnaring the younger, undamaged anakin without the leverage of padme?

The Emperor succeeds even without Padme, Anakin's personality was simply too easy to manipulate especially by Palpatine who had wormed his way into camaraderie even before the time of AOTC.
And he'd fail at the duel with Vader for one, he lacks more force potential than himself and Vader would probably not worry about creating a temporal paradox (And wouldn't hold back against a truely dangerous usurper who was not his son, he despised "Anakin" at that point as weak)

And the Incest potential gets even worse (Father/Daughter and all, especially since Leia resembles Padme immensely )

I think everyone's being premature with getting to Vader vs Anakin in ESB. Just before EP2 Anakin was pretty much a Jedi Knight in everything but name. Vader sensed Obiwan as soon as he was on the Death Star, what's he gonna do when he senses Anakin? Like wise if Anakin see's Obi fighting Vader is he gonna stand there and watch or try and run in? If he does run in, how surprised is Vader going to be at facing himself?

ANH Questions:

Obi Wan knows Anakin is a good pilot, will he still hire Han and Chewy or just try and get their own ship?
How much will Vader's actions change once there are 2 jedi on the DS?
Will Vader be able to identify himself through the force like he IDed Obi Wan?
Will Anakin be able to convince Han to rescue the Princess like Luke did?
Presumably the prison rescue will be a lot easier with Anakin along, including kicking in the Diagnoga and escaping the trash compactor (are the doors lightsabre proof?)
If the Vader-Obi fight happens as it did in ANH, will Anakin "Run Anakin, Run" or will he try to lay the smack down?
How will the Rebel Alliance react now they've got the war hero Anakin Skywalker and not farmboy from a desert?
Will Anakin 'stay on target' or will he try and avenge Obi Wan and shoot down Vader?
Will Han and Chewy come back to save Anakin?

That's just the questions i have for ANH.

DEATH wrote:The Emperor succeeds even without Padme, Anakin's personality was simply too easy to manipulate especially by Palpatine who had wormed his way into camaraderie even before the time of AOTC.

Presumably when Obi Wan fills him in on the Clone Wars he mentions his supposed best buddy turned out to be a Sith Lord who then went and massacred the Jedi. He'll probably manipulate Anakin to the dark side, but i doubt Anakin will be his friend.

Ep 2 Anakin was already a psycho as evidence by murdering an entire tribe of Tuskin Raiders. Not someone you'd want leading your rebellion against the Empire run by one of Anakin's closest buddies.

Darth Servo wrote:Ep 2 Anakin was already a psycho as evidence by murdering an entire tribe of Tuskin Raiders. Not someone you'd want leading your rebellion against the Empire run by one of Anakin's closest buddies.

Not that I disagree that Anakin was a sociopath in Ep II but slaughtering Tuskens of all things isn't proof of that.
They are dangerous, hostile schmucks with no redeeming features whatsoever (if you believe KOTOR anyway). Killing them all at least gives the farmers there some safety.

Cao Cao wrote:

Darth Servo wrote:Ep 2 Anakin was already a psycho as evidence by murdering an entire tribe of Tuskin Raiders. Not someone you'd want leading your rebellion against the Empire run by one of Anakin's closest buddies.

Not that I disagree that Anakin was a sociopath in Ep II but slaughtering Tuskens of all things isn't proof of that.
They are dangerous, hostile schmucks with no redeeming features whatsoever (if you believe KOTOR anyway). Killing them all at least gives the farmers there some safety.

The fact that he slaughtered all of them, women and children included escaped you? That he did it in a berserk rage and steeped in the dark side? That one of his close friends being killed (Such as Obi-Wan) could trigger this, and that Palpatine Literally Wrote the book on using And manipulating Anger escapes you?

DEATH wrote:The fact that he slaughtered all of them, women and children included escaped you? That he did it in a berserk rage and steeped in the dark side? That one of his close friends being killed (Such as Obi-Wan) could trigger this, and that Palpatine Literally Wrote the book on using And manipulating Anger escapes you?

We're talking about an extremely hostile people who can't be reasoned with because they are for all intents and purposes completely insane and have been for thousands of years. Let's not forget that the weeks of abuse leading to her death that Shmi suffered at their hands is what set Anakin off, and I doubt the women and children were unaware of what was going on.
As for the rest, like I said I don't dispute that Anakin is unstable and unreliable, just that it's not because of the Tusken incident.

Cao Cao wrote:

DEATH wrote:The fact that he slaughtered all of them, women and children included escaped you? That he did it in a berserk rage and steeped in the dark side? That one of his close friends being killed (Such as Obi-Wan) could trigger this, and that Palpatine Literally Wrote the book on using And manipulating Anger escapes you?

We're talking about an extremely hostile people who can't be reasoned with because they are for all intents and purposes completely insane and have been for thousands of years. Let's not forget that the weeks of abuse leading to her death that Shmi suffered at their hands is what set Anakin off, and I doubt the women and children were unaware of what was going on.
As for the rest, like I said I don't dispute that Anakin is unstable and unreliable, just that it's not because of the Tusken incident.

By your reasoning, the genocide of any number of Native American populations over the last few hundred years was completely justified. Afterall, many of them kidnapped, sometimes tortured, and often killed white settlers. They mounted uncounted raids on European communities, especially as they expanded further and further West. Their women and children didn't rebel over this activity, at least not to any significant extent; it was part of their culture, at least after the "white man" began appearing at their borders (and for some of the more war-like ones, centuries before).

We have no idea what the dynamics and history behind the animosity between the Tuskens and offworlders on Tatooine involves; it may be very close to what occured all across the North American continent. Both KOTOR and numerous other EU source show that the Tuskens have a complex, if primative and tribal, culture and society. They are hardly the animals that the settlers portray them as. Indeed, they may be defending their society just as tribes like the Shawnee and Sioux did from the encrochment of alien colonists. They may not have the most "civilized" or peaceful of societies, but Tuskens should not have their status of sentients disregarded.

Noble Ire wrote:By your reasoning, the genocide of any number of Native American populations over the last few hundred years was completely justified. Afterall, many of them kidnapped, sometimes tortured, and often killed white settlers. They mounted uncounted raids on European communities, especially as they expanded further and further West. Their women and children didn't rebel over this activity, at least not to any significant extent; it was part of their culture, at least after the "white man" began appearing at their borders (and for some of the more war-like ones, centuries before).

We have no idea what the dynamics and history behind the animosity between the Tuskens and offworlders on Tatooine involves; it may be very close to what occured all across the North American continent. Both KOTOR and numerous other EU source show that the Tuskens have a complex, if primative and tribal, culture and society. They are hardly the animals that the settlers portray them as. Indeed, they may be defending their society just as tribes like the Shawnee and Sioux did from the encrochment of alien colonists. They may not have the most "civilized" or peaceful of societies, but Tuskens should not have their status of sentients disregarded.

The thing is, sources like KOTOR portray the Tuskens as savage and utterly unreasonable. While they have a culture which is somewhat complex, they also have an extreme hatred of outsiders not for encroaching on their territory but for who they are. Because they use advanced technology. The Tuskens have set up a whole universe-hating dogma around themselves (indeed in the game, the slightest mistep results in them attacking you) which is clearly not like the native American tribes. If the Tuskens were victims of encroachment and various broken treaties and persecution, biological warfare and all that their actions would be at least understandable. However their overtly racist mentality leaves me with little sympathy for them.

Not that I'm saying what Anakin did is right mind you, merely not totally psychotic. Which doesn't change the fact that he is, in fact, a psycho. Still I wouldn't look at this one incident as enough to hold against him.

Cao Cao wrote:The thing is, sources like KOTOR portray the Tuskens as savage and utterly unreasonable. While they have a culture which is somewhat complex, they also have an extreme hatred of outsiders not for encroaching on their territory but for who they are. Because they use advanced technology. The Tuskens have set up a whole universe-hating dogma around themselves (indeed in the game, the slightest mistep results in them attacking you) which is clearly not like the native American tribes. If the Tuskens were victims of encroachment and various broken treaties and persecution, biological warfare and all that their actions would be at least understandable. However their overtly racist mentality leaves me with little sympathy for them.

KOTOR implicitly shows that Tuskens are amenable to reason; the primary quest involving them involves Revan helping a cessation of hostilities between the tribe near the spaceport by providing them with moisture vaporators in turn for movement of the Tusken village from the mining lines. This, as well as their usage of projectile weapons, also demonstrates that the Tusken's don't hold any specific adversion to technology and those who use it; I may be forgetting something, but I don't recall a specific reference to their hatred of technology anywhere.

They are obviously have a strong martial element in their society, and may indeed be inordinately violent and xenophobic, but there have been plenty of human civilizations like that throughout our history, some of them among the Native American tribes. I still don't see how this removes any blame from Anakin for slaughtering them wholesale, especially considering the fact that he targeted women and children, who had no role in his mother's death beyond living in a culture that allowed for torture and kidnapping. Were the Spartans inhuman monsters? The Romans? The Celts? Dark-age Europeans? The Aztecs? The Sioux? Considering the animosity between them, the settlers may have been just as brutal to any Tuskens they captured as the natives were; many westward colonists, and at least a few US presidents, certainly were.

Noble Ire wrote:KOTOR implicitly shows that Tuskens are amenable to reason; the primary quest involving them involves Revan helping a cessation of hostilities between the tribe near the spaceport by providing them with moisture vaporators in turn for movement of the Tusken village from the mining lines. This, as well as their usage of projectile weapons, also demonstrates that the Tusken's don't hold any specific adversion to technology and those who use it; I may be forgetting something, but I don't recall a specific reference to their hatred of technology anywhere.

The Tuskens were open to a deal that was convenient for them - but only after Revan goes to extreme lengths to talk to them, using Tusken disguises. However they remain trigger-happy and hostile all throughout this.
Yes, they did use vaporators even back then, but only because they "have to"; when they speak of their history of their enslavement by the Rakata they mention their outright hatred of technology and advanced societys - because they blame them for the Rakata coming in the first place.

They are obviously have a strong martial element in their society, and may indeed be inordinately violent and xenophobic, but there have been plenty of human civilizations like that throughout our history, some of them among the Native American tribes. I still don't see how this removes any blame from Anakin for slaughtering them wholesale, especially considering the fact that he targeted women and children, who had no role in his mother's death beyond living in a culture that allowed for torture and kidnapping. Were the Spartans inhuman monsters? The Romans? The Celts? Dark-age Europeans? The Aztecs? The Sioux? Considering the animosity between them, the settlers may have been just as brutal to any Tuskens they captured as the natives were; many westward colonists, and at least a few US presidents, certainly were.

It's their highly xenophobic, paranoid and stupid culture that gives me little reason to feel pity for them rather than their brutal actions - that just adds to it.
However in the end a culture that's going to engage in such brutality will inevitably suffer the consequences. The Helots rebelled against the Spartans, numerous minor nations aided the Conquistadors against the Aztecs, Nazi soldiers being shot while trying to surrender after performing various atrocities, etc.
The Tuskens commited atrocity after atrocity and were repayed in kind. I can't see how this in and of itself makes Anakin a bad person - he clearly didn't enjoy the act.

Let me begin by saying I'm not on CaoCao's side here. His argument is his own.

Noble Ire wrote:KOTOR implicitly shows that Tuskens are amenable to reason; the primary quest involving them involves Revan helping a cessation of hostilities between the tribe near the spaceport by providing them with moisture vaporators in turn for movement of the Tusken village from the mining lines.

Only if you choose the LS option, DS Revan just doesn't give a shit. Even if you go LS to the point where white light is shining out of your arse, the Tuskens are so belligerent that simply snooping around those wicker baskets calls down their righteous anger upon you, even after you've brokered a peaceful settlement. (You don't even have to take anything, you just have to open the lid and look inside - instant aggro)

This, as well as their usage of projectile weapons, also demonstrates that the Tusken's don't hold any specific adversion to technology and those who use it; I may be forgetting something, but I don't recall a specific reference to their hatred of technology anywhere.

Then you're not remembering the game. I recall a link being made to the settlers being technology users and the Tuskens being primitive luddites. Using a projectile weapon doesn't prove anything. It's been awhile since I played the game so I can't recall the specifics, but I think it's at least implied.

They are obviously have a strong martial element in their society, and may indeed be inordinately violent and xenophobic, but there have been plenty of human civilizations like that throughout our history, some of them among the Native American tribes.

And the old saying 'he who lives by the sword dies by the sword' applies. The Tuskens aren't innocent bystanders; they came and kidnapped Shmi, then kept her alive just to be beaten and tortured.

Were the Spartans inhuman monsters?

Yes. The kept slaves whom they could murder at will.

The Romans?

Yes. See above. Their society was fucked up.

The Celts? Dark-age Europeans?

There's a reason why we call it the Dark Ages, and it's not because the light sources of the time were unusually dim. It's a period of history that's ugly and disgusting, full of brutality and misery.

Considering the animosity between them, the settlers may have been just as brutal to any Tuskens they captured as the natives were; many westward colonists, and at least a few US presidents, certainly were.

Proof? No, 'may have been' doesn't count. The films don't portray the settlers of Tattooine to be a genocidal bunch. Suggesting there is an allegorical link between the Tuskens and the Native Americans is spurious reasoning.

Cao Cao wrote:It's their highly xenophobic, paranoid and stupid culture that gives me little reason to feel pity for them rather than their brutal actions - that just adds to it.
However in the end a culture that's going to engage in such brutality will inevitably suffer the consequences. The Helots rebelled against the Spartans, numerous minor nations aided the Conquistadors against the Aztecs, Nazi soldiers being shot while trying to surrender after performing various atrocities, etc.
The Tuskens commited atrocity after atrocity and were repayed in kind. I can't see how this in and of itself makes Anakin a bad person - he clearly didn't enjoy the act.

I never claimed that their actions and society were without fault, and I would agree that they would justifiably yield violent reprocussions. I Simply took issue with the idea that being a member of such a civilization forfiets a sentient's right to live, regardless of their role in it.

Stofsk wrote:Only if you choose the LS option, DS Revan just doesn't give a shit. Even if you go LS to the point where white light is shining out of your arse, the Tuskens are so belligerent that simply snooping around those wicker baskets calls down their righteous anger upon you, even after you've brokered a peaceful settlement. (You don't even have to take anything, you just have to open the lid and look inside - instant aggro)

The Light Side path is the canonical one, as dictated by the New Essential Guide to Chronology. Nevertheless, your point about Tusken belligerence is indesputible; as I noted above, their culture is obviously a violent one.

Then you're not remembering the game. I recall a link being made to the settlers being technology users and the Tuskens being primitive luddites. Using a projectile weapon doesn't prove anything. It's been awhile since I played the game so I can't recall the specifics, but I think it's at least implied.

If your recollection is correct, then I will drop the point. I do not remember the specifics of that particular quest with any real clarity.

Snip Sparta, Rome, etc.

You missed the point of my statement; I never claimed that the mentioned civilizations didn't breed evil and inhumanity. As I said above, I was simply disupting the idea that simply being a Roman, or Spartan, or Sioux, negated your right to live. If you read a novel in which some German warlord tracked some Roman slavers who had abducted and evnetually killed his wife, would he be justified in not only locating the slavers' settlement and killing them but also slaughtering every man, woman, and child who lived there, from simple farmers to doctors to servants?

Proof? No, 'may have been' doesn't count. The films don't portray the settlers of Tattooine to be a genocidal bunch. Suggesting there is an allegorical link between the Tuskens and the Native Americans is spurious reasoning.

I withdraw the idea. I was simply proposing a possibility.

Well in KOTOR the main tusken camp was protected by a huge mine field and automated turrets (only to get past those is a) destroy them (hard but possible) or b) use tusken clothes), and quite frankly I seem to remember tuskens said to be hostile and terrorial scavangers (aka taking what they can use and destroying the rest).

I voted for the latter. All Palpatine has to do is arrange a meeting with Anakin, offer him some vague promise of greater power, and he'll switch sides easily. All he really cares about is his image of himself as the all-powerful Chosen One, and the Rebellion can't offer him any way to be that. Palpatine can even spin-doctor the Rebels as a bunch of evil monsters who are interfering with his noble goal of bringing order to the galaxy. Considering how he just nodded his head as Palpatine lied to his face about the Jedi, then killed all of them down to the younglings, I doubt he'd see through his lies about people he just met. Even if he knew it was BS like the story about the Jedi betraying the Republic, I doubt he'd care, since killing them gets him more power.

Sidious will definitely try to bring Anakin to the Dark Side, but Vader-- wary that Sidious will try to replace him with his younger self-- will definitely try to throw a wrench in those works. Maybe Vader will try to make sure Anakin stays on the Light Side, maybe he'll try to tempt Anakin to become a Dark Jedi under his command, maybe he'll encourage Anakin to assassinate Sidious, maybe he'll assassinate Sidious himself and blame the crime on Anakin. Vader WILL do something-- I doubt he'll be blind to a disturbance in the Force caused by having two Anakin Skywalkers exist in the same universe.

Vader hunts down and kills the obvious replacement for his position.

At least with Luke there is something he could mold, but with Anakin?

There's going to be no paternal bond to manipulate, there's going to be no love or vision he had with Padme of ruling the galazy as a family. There's only going to be bald hatred of the reminder of who he was and the acknowledgement that Palpatine will throw Vader away for a new recruit to mold.

Anakin will not turn to the dark side. He will be too horrified that his former best friend Palpatine wiped out the Jedi and that this Darth Vader fellow killed Anakin and Padme. Lucas went out of his way to make it clear that Padme was the reason Anakin turned; Anakin was very upset that Palpatine had deceived him for so long and only went back to save him because of Padme. If Anakin fails, it will be because Vader or the Emperor kills him.

Plus, the Emperor and Vader won't be able to make very good sales pitches.

Sidious: Now kill your older self and take his place at my side!
Anakin: Yeah, because it worked out so well for him.


Vader: Join me, and we can rule the galaxy together as... um... uh... past and present selves?
Anakin: There can be only one!

Well, wouldn't that put an interesting and bizarre twist on it all:

Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to yourself...
Anakin: He told me enough! He told me you killed me!
Vader: No! I am you!
Anakin: That's not true... that's impossible!
Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Anakin: Noooooo! Noo...

Dooey Jo wrote:Well, wouldn't that put an interesting and bizarre twist on it all:

Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to yourself...
Anakin: He told me enough! He told me you killed me!
Vader: No! I am you!
Anakin: That's not true... that's impossible!
Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Anakin: Noooooo! Noo...

I wonder if the Holonet has Jer'ri Sprin'gr Show?

Am I the only one who finds a certain irony in Cao Cao defending clanwide extermination?


And so that I'm adding something to the conversation: I'd suggest that in a modern-day court, Anakin could have easily passed off what he did to the tuskens as temporarily insanity. While he's obviously psychotic, the Tusken incident on its own does not necessarily prove this. His obsession with Padmea fter all that time, for example, was far more telling.


ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

Lusankya wrote:Am I the only one who finds a certain irony in Cao Cao defending clanwide extermination?

Hey. You try keeping order in post-Han China!

And so that I'm adding something to the conversation: I'd suggest that in a modern-day court, Anakin could have easily passed off what he did to the tuskens as temporarily insanity.

Given the threat Tuskens posed to the surrounding civilised populations, I doubt it'd even come to trial.
While wholesale extermination will always be wrong the Tuskens effectively brought it upon themselves. When one side engages in total war, the other side will inevitably respond in kind given the chance.

While he's obviously psychotic, the Tusken incident on its own does not necessarily prove this. His obsession with Padmea fter all that time, for example, was far more telling.

Agreed. That's actually my whole point. His sociopathic attitude towards Padme, his superiority complex, disdain for authority, petulance, etc etc more than prove how unstable he is.

Am I the only person who finds this entire thought exercise bizarre?

Culminating in this, of course..

Dooey Jo wrote:Well, wouldn't that put an interesting and bizarre twist on it all:

Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to yourself...
Anakin: He told me enough! He told me you killed me!
Vader: No! I am you!
Anakin: That's not true... that's impossible!
Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Anakin: Noooooo! Noo...

Cykeisme wrote:Am I the only person who finds this entire thought exercise bizarre?

Culminating in this, of course..

Dooey Jo wrote:Well, wouldn't that put an interesting and bizarre twist on it all:

Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to yourself...
Anakin: He told me enough! He told me you killed me!
Vader: No! I am you!
Anakin: That's not true... that's impossible!
Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Anakin: Noooooo! Noo...

Nah I doubt Vader would bother, he hates Anakin.
It'd probably go like this:

Vader: You. YOU! Bastard! You killed Padme!
Anakin: What? What? I killed Padme?
Vader: Yes! Or you will! You'll kill her!
Anakin: So if I will kill Padme but it hasn't happened yet.. but you are me so.. you killed Padme. You killed Padme! YOU BASTARD!!
Vader: Wait.. huh? Er.. well.. oh shut up! DIE! RAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!
Anakin: YAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

*lightsaber fight*