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Regarding the naval battle above the Endor moon, it seems to me that the Imperial fleet, even without the Executor, was significantly larger than the attacking Rebel fleet. Add to that the two Rebel capital ships erased by the Death Star. So, what is the story on how the Rebels were successful in that battle, even with the destruction of the DS and the SSD? Were most of the Imperial capital ships wiped out by the blast of the DS?

What went wrong?

1) The Star Destroyers were holding back for Palpatine's great show.
2) They wasted their fighters against the capital ships of the rebels (and lacked them later).
3) When the rebel capships attacked they concentrated their attacks, while the ISDs were spread out in their trapping-formation.
4) The Imperials had two (perhaps three) ships more powerful than an ISD in their fleet, the rebels had at least four ships of the HomeOne-type.
5) Palpatine died, what ended the advantages the Imperials got from battle-meditation, what caused a drop in their efficency.
6) The rebels managed to destroy the comm-ship, got lucky against the Executor and then the DS blew up. No more coordination after that.
7) It is possible, that individually each of the Imperials ships was an elite-unit, but that they didn't belong to the same fleet. With the loss of comm-ship, Executor, DS and Palpatine they were no longer able to function as a unit.

FTeik wrote:7) It is possible, that individually each of the Imperials ships was an elite-unit, but that they didn't belong to the same fleet. With the loss of comm-ship, Executor, DS and Palpatine they were no longer able to function as a unit.

Didn't the Emperor say in the ROTJ radio drama that the Imperial fleet at Endor was the local sector fleet or has that been retconned?

It has been speculated that the Imperials still would have won had a retreat order not been given by acting Captain Gilad Pellaeon of the Chimaera after the destruction of the Death Star. His judgement in the matter is suspect (as is the validity of the order; it is possible that, in the confusion of the battle, Pellaeon superceded the chain of command), but it must be remembered that the Imperial fleet was in a abysmal state by that point of the fighting, despite still possessing a more formidable force than the Alliance. The loss of the Executor, the Death Star, both Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader, Supreme Admiral Nial Declaan and his battle meditation, and the fleet's principle communication ship must have utterly crused Imperial moral and coordination; had the fleet remained in the system, it is possible that they could have emerged victorious, but it would have been at an extreme cost.

As I recall, a few Grand Admirals made a go of it, and one was captured at Endor.

jegs2 wrote:Regarding the naval battle above the Endor moon, it seems to me that the Imperial fleet, even without the Executor, was significantly larger than the attacking Rebel fleet. Add to that the two Rebel capital ships erased by the Death Star. So, what is the story on how the Rebels were successful in that battle, even with the destruction of the DS and the SSD? Were most of the Imperial capital ships wiped out by the blast of the DS?

We don't know how big the Rebel fleet really was- the jump shot as they go to Endor is definitely not it's entirety, as we see many more ships at the end flying towards the moon. The novelization says that the Rebel fleet extended beyond the range of human vision.

On the other hand, more than two capital ships were blown apart by the Death Star, according to the novelization ("ship after ship").

Anyway, here's my topic on it:

Link

Basically, if not for the death of the Emperor, the battle would've been won.

The Imps also didn't seem to have any particular plan. I didn't get the impression that they were making any special effort to take out the flagship, and seemed to be attacking in a random, haphazard fashion. Perhaps they actually assumed that all of the Rebels' most powerful ships would be destroyed by the Death Star, and thus gave them a wide berth.

Vympel wrote:Anyway, here's my topic on it:

Link

In your topic, you also noted that when the Imperial communications ship was destroyed, jamming immediately ceased. That had to do something for the Rebels, and probably didn't do much for the already-disorganized Imperial sector fleet; if there was no jamming at all in the battle, or if the Rebels were the only ones jamming, I wouldn't be surprised if that greatly increased the Rebel fleet's combat effectiveness. The coordinated assault that brought down the Executor's shields may be an example of something that wouldn't have been possible if the jamming hadn't stopped.

Darth Wong wrote:The Imps also didn't seem to have any particular plan. I didn't get the impression that they were making any special effort to take out the flagship, and seemed to be attacking in a random, haphazard fashion. Perhaps they actually assumed that all of the Rebels' most powerful ships would be destroyed by the Death Star, and thus gave them a wide berth.

This is something that I have thought about before... If you have been told that full force of the DeathStar will be turned on the ALliance Captial ships, then obviously you will stay AWAY from their most important ships.

As such, the ships that any sane person would have targetted first, such as HomeOne, would have been left alone since you don't want to be near by when the Super Laser passes by.

As such, many important targets where left alone.

The Truce At Bakura sourcebook also attest victory to the loss of sensors and communications that occured after the death star exploded. Apparently, the energies released was enough to hinder Imperial communication, and Imperial commanders unused to fighting in such haphazard conditions were outfought by Rebels who were........

Laying aside the propganda value of that statement, its entirely possible that the loss of senors and communications served to break down morale and the chain of command, allowing Paelleon to successfully order withdrawal of the fleet.s

I think the battle meditation factor has more to do with the defeat than it is often given credit for. Imperial personnel had to deal with a LOT of morale damaging factors during the Battle, and while they should be expected to endure such factors normally, the loss of the meditation will most likely have had the effect of ripping their hearts out. I'd say this provides an understandable reason for the withdrawal when combined with the utterly disorganised nature of the fleet and the destruction of the chain of command.

The fleet disparity is often taken to extreme. There were at least two Starcruisers at Endor for the rebels from the Mon Cals and at least thirteen Stardestroyer sized Mon Cal ships. Add on top of that the possible Dreadnaught(s) and other unidentifiable ships and a mish mash of lesser ships and the rebel fleet isn't as rag tag as most generally think.

Minus the Executor; it's entirely possible the two forces were more or less equal in strength at the outset of the battle. It was probably a factor that the Imperial fleet was spread out, after a pincher manuver, and the rebel forces penetrated their line in force, that played in the rebels favor.

Add on top of that, the death of Palpatine and well, you get the point.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:As such, the ships that any sane person would have targetted first, such as HomeOne, would have been left alone since you don't want to be near by when the Super Laser passes by.

I don't know that it's proximity so much as the desire not to be the answer to the Emperor's question, "Who destroyed that cruiser instead of the Death Star?" ISDs can engage at sizeable fractions of an AU; there'd be no need for them to pull alongside simply to blast away at the enemy cruiser.

Knife wrote:Minus the Executor; it's entirely possible the two forces were more or less equal in strength at the outset of the battle. It was probably a factor that the Imperial fleet was spread out, after a pincher manuver, and the rebel forces penetrated their line in force, that played in the rebels favor.

The Imperial force didn't seem to be expecting the Rebel fleet to close to point-blank range, and when they did, the Imperial fleet had to keep the Rebels at point-blank range in order to prevent them from jumping to hyperspace. It wouldn't surprise me if the close-range tactics -- and the need to keep the rebels at close range -- discomfited Imperial officers who may not have had the experience at unconventional fighting the rebels did.

Leaving aside the Executor, we see at least one, and I think two, ISDs destroyed from rebel fire. In contrast, I don't remember seeing any rebel cruisers being destroyed by anything other than the superlaser. Even before the loss of the Emperor and the SSD, it seems the rebel fleet was doing better than the Imperials.

That doesn't really mean anything. After all, we didn't see much of the Ewok slaughter on the ground, either.

HTTE also mentioned that another six Star Destroyers were 'lost in battles that they should have easily won'. That would have been another blow to Imperial morale.

Imperial morale probably wouldn't be helped too much by all the Grand Admirals, sans Teshik fleeing before Pellaeon's retreat order.

There were clearly both the local sector fleet, Death Squadron, whatever protective forces for the Death Star's construction site and the individual transports of the Grand Admirals present at Endor. It's probably a fair bet to say that they hadn't much experience working together, as well as possible gaps in personnel quality between the sector fleet and Death Squadron, for example.

Darth Wong wrote:The Imps also didn't seem to have any particular plan. I didn't get the impression that they were making any special effort to take out the flagship, and seemed to be attacking in a random, haphazard fashion. Perhaps they actually assumed that all of the Rebels' most powerful ships would be destroyed by the Death Star, and thus gave them a wide berth.

That, and the fact that with the number of TIEs they had, they might've believed that they needn't be bothered by a plan.

Let's face it, the Imperial fleet expected the Death Star to wipe the floor with the rebels. Their orders were to keep the rebels from escaping so all they had to do was sit back and let the Death Star screw the rebel fleet over royally. Then the Death Star's shields went down and it blew up. Mission Objectives changed at this point becuase they had lost their ability to coordinate a defense which was crap to begin with given their nature as an interdiction force rather than a true combat ready unit.

Knife wrote:The fleet disparity is often taken to extreme. There were at least two Starcruisers at Endor for the rebels from the Mon Cals and at least thirteen Stardestroyer sized Mon Cal ships. Add on top of that the possible Dreadnaught(s) and other unidentifiable ships and a mish mash of lesser ships and the rebel fleet isn't as rag tag as most generally think.

Minus the Executor; it's entirely possible the two forces were more or less equal in strength at the outset of the battle. It was probably a factor that the Imperial fleet was spread out, after a pincher manuver, and the rebel forces penetrated their line in force, that played in the rebels favor.

Add on top of that, the death of Palpatine and well, you get the point.

One thing people miss is the entirity of the fleet had to be capable of reliably dealing with Executor and a few ISD escorts since Luke, Leia, Chewie, and especially Han were totally unphased by their presence, and Saxton noted this in his description. The Corellian battleships and other assorted vessels described in the novelisation likely had the Executor beat in total, also accounting for the explosive ramships. It is possible Imperial intel, even with the immense fleet, underestimated the size of the total Alliance fleet, didn't account for as many or as heavy ships as the Home One types or the Corellian battleships, or didn't account for the added firepower of the explosive ramships.

The discussion ended a month ago but a newbie apparently didn't read the goddamn rules.

Locking because while IP does have a good point the discussion is along the same lines that have been discussed more then a few times. The Alliance wasn't as rag tag, and the Imperial Fleet was hampered by the arrogance of Palpatine.