Page 1 of 4
Storm Troopers: clones are not?
Posted: 2002-08-07 12:52am
by une
I was thinking about this recently, and I wanted to know what you guys thought.
For them being clones there is Temura Morrison plainly stating that Lucas had him go and do voice overs for the Storm Troopers in the OT at Celebration 2. And there is a magazine that came out during the release of ESB that states that Storm Troopers are clones as well.
Against them being clones there is the loads of evidence against them being clones in the EU, and the fact that they are different heights in the current editions of the OT.
So, what do you guys think?
Posted: 2002-08-07 12:58am
by une
The below is a link to the magazine article I was talking about.
http://www.theforce.net/episode2/newspi ... clones.gif[/url][/quote]
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:17am
by AL
I think Stormtroopers are clones, and that over the years the Empire has used different host as the clone templates. Instead of just the Jango Fett host like the Old Rep Clones, More than one is used for the newer Stormtrooper clones.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:21am
by Stravo
I think that its fairly obvious that Stromtroopers are clones...GL just did not have the budget or tech to really make all Stormtroopers alike, but he tried his best, we never see them outside their armor, theri voices kind of sound the same and as to the height difference, Leia does say to Luke "Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?" So that sort of points to a basic height for troopers that Luke does not meet. besides, I don't care what kind of training regimine you use, you will not get fanatical shock troops like stormtroopers in the numbers that we see in OT. They HAVE to be clones and its obvious that that is GL's vision, always has been. Remember the CLONE wars was mentioned in ANH, the very first film.
My only complaint is that they surely aren;t as competent in OT as they were in AOTC. Clone troopers in that movie KICKED ASS.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:35am
by AL
just to throw this in, you would think the empire after return of the jedi would still use clones, and thus have a huge number of stormtroopers and maybe even other troops and crewmembers for the fleet and army.
I know the Thrawn trilogy hit on this remotely, with a small remote facility on an undefended world. I think the empire would have vast facilities just like the one in aotc.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:41am
by AL
just to add a tad more, i also think it would take a long long time for the rebellion after rotj to defeat the empire unless the rebellion were to use clones as well to counter the giant forces of the empire. It seems that the eu writers have written off the empire way to early.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:43am
by Jim Raynor
I really don't think that they're clones. A big deal was made in the Thrawn trilogy about the Empire acquiring a single cloning facility capable of making tens of thousands of clones each month, and how the elite troops being cloned were kicking NR ass. Why would this be such a big deal if the countless millions of troops the Republic had been fighting for years were all clones? Besides, don't some of the RPG materials go over Stormtrooper recruitment and training?
Posted: 2002-08-07 03:26am
by D.Turtle
I do not think they are clones.
Why?
Because it is a LOT cheaper to train stormtroopers that to clone them.
A few months to a few years of training vs. raising them and training them for 10 years or so (remember you can't train them for the first few years - they are still to small).
About the size: The Empire has a HUGE amunt of people to choose from. They can be picky
If you want to know how huge, there was a thread that discussed it.
Posted: 2002-08-07 03:42am
by Raptor 597
Stravo wrote:"Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?" So that sort of points to a basic height for troopers that Luke does not meet
Stravo, perhaps but in the US Army you can not be recruited if, you are too short, etc. and in some Branches you can't be too tall either(Most of the Empire's Officers were in a certain height range) I'm not saying your Theory is wrong, but I like to keep all views open.
Posted: 2002-08-07 07:30am
by Mr Bean
Compare this
One Cloning Facility or even multiples that if destroyed
You=Screwed
VS Devoting whole planets to the function of Training of becoming the best of the Best, Storm-Troopers
Even though most may hate KJA I think he dead on when he mentions places like Caridan a slighty higher than normal G world(I think if I remeber correctly 1.3 G) that is basicly a hell-hole of a ton of diffrent enviorments that are trying to kill you.
The best of the best after a year or two of training go onto furthre training as a Storm-trooper the rest become normal troopers or work elsewhere(Funkly Navy Troopers maybe, you know the odd helmet that sweeps back and protects just the forehead but the entireneck region to)
If Storm-Troopers where all clones does it makes sense to JUST have ground Troopers as Clones, Why not TIE Pilots and Navy crewers to?
The Empire until Thrawn cleary did not do this, so why not just make ONE class of solider Storm-Troopers, And Why the *Elite Guard on Endor if all the Storm-troopers are the same?
Posted: 2002-08-07 08:20am
by Smiling Bandit
I agree it would seem to be more economical to just train them up. That may also account for the change in uniform.
Posted: 2002-08-07 10:57am
by Stravo
Mr Bean wrote:Compare this
One Cloning Facility or even multiples that if destroyed
You=Screwed
VS Devoting whole planets to the function of Training of becoming the best of the Best, Storm-Troopers
Even though most may hate KJA I think he dead on when he mentions places like Caridan a slighty higher than normal G world(I think if I remeber correctly 1.3 G) that is basicly a hell-hole of a ton of diffrent enviorments that are trying to kill you.
The best of the best after a year or two of training go onto furthre training as a Storm-trooper the rest become normal troopers or work elsewhere(Funkly Navy Troopers maybe, you know the odd helmet that sweeps back and protects just the forehead but the entireneck region to)
The cloning facilties worked for Palpy in teh clone wars, they never came under attack (as far as we know) because they were kept secret. Think about it, a world that does not appear on any starcharts, VERY convenient for a secret base.
As for the KJA theory...Hmmmm...sounds SUSPICIOUSLY like Selesia Secondus in Dune where all the Sardukar come from, a hell hole of a prison planet where the survivors go into Sardukar training, toughest of the tough...UNTIL they meet up with the Fremen who come from an even tougher world.
Also keep in mind that the cloning idea is directly in line with some of the themes GL is exploring in this story. The industrilaization of humanity...literally throw away manufactured people, this idea goes hand in glove with the whole portrayal of the empire as a cold machine oriented society as opposed to the more organic and spiritual Rebellion (Mon Cal Cruisers, they still believe in the force..)
It also is better for exerting control to have clone shock troops...they are ABSOLUTELY Loyal because you MADE them. You don't have to deal with raw recruits, people that are flawed, independent, etc. These are made to order enforcers of your will.
I also read somewhere that Boba's back story when GL first thought him up always included some reference to his connection to stormtroopers.
AS for the RPG references, WEG has HARDLY shown their accuracy in many things re the movies AND quiite frankly AOTC had not come out yet so we haven't seen this until now.
And I'm pretty sure that there's an article out there someone posted in the boards at the official website where GL explicitely states that the clonetroopers become the Storm troopers. Stormtroopers=clones and I HATE the fact that I don't have that link.
Posted: 2002-08-07 10:58am
by Stravo
Mr Bean wrote:Compare this
One Cloning Facility or even multiples that if destroyed
You=Screwed
VS Devoting whole planets to the function of Training of becoming the best of the Best, Storm-Troopers
Even though most may hate KJA I think he dead on when he mentions places like Caridan a slighty higher than normal G world(I think if I remeber correctly 1.3 G) that is basicly a hell-hole of a ton of diffrent enviorments that are trying to kill you.
The best of the best after a year or two of training go onto furthre training as a Storm-trooper the rest become normal troopers or work elsewhere(Funkly Navy Troopers maybe, you know the odd helmet that sweeps back and protects just the forehead but the entireneck region to)
The cloning facilties worked for Palpy in teh clone wars, they never came under attack (as far as we know) because they were kept secret. Think about it, a world that does not appear on any starcharts, VERY convenient for a secret base.
As for the KJA theory...Hmmmm...sounds SUSPICIOUSLY like Selesia Secondus in Dune where all the Sardukar come from, a hell hole of a prison planet where the survivors go into Sardukar training, toughest of the tough...UNTIL they meet up with the Fremen who come from an even tougher world.
Also keep in mind that the cloning idea is directly in line with some of the themes GL is exploring in this story. The industrilaization of humanity...literally throw away manufactured people, this idea goes hand in glove with the whole portrayal of the empire as a cold machine oriented society as opposed to the more organic and spiritual Rebellion (Mon Cal Cruisers, they still believe in the force..)
It also is better for exerting control to have clone shock troops...they are ABSOLUTELY Loyal because you MADE them. You don't have to deal with raw recruits, people that are flawed, independent, etc. These are made to order enforcers of your will.
I also read somewhere that Boba's back story when GL first thought him up always included some reference to his connection to stormtroopers.
AS for the RPG references, WEG has HARDLY shown their accuracy in many things re the movies AND quiite frankly AOTC had not come out yet so we haven't seen this until now.
And I'm pretty sure that there's an article out there someone posted in the boards at the official website where GL explicitely states that the clonetroopers become the Storm troopers. Stormtroopers=clones and I HATE the fact that I don't have that link.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:16pm
by Talon Karrde
There are a few problems with your theory about stormtroopers being clones. First off, it is possible to sense clones through the force. Often times Jedi Master Skywalker is able to detect clones through the force. (My most recent memory of this is the Thrawn duology, I also think it mentions it many times in his trilogy)
Also, there are many stories of individual stormtroopers. For instance, Davin Felth is one of these. He is known to have joined the Empire when he was 18 years old. If he was a clone, he would already have been in the Empire's service.
However, it's possible that there were indeed some clones left over from the Clone Wars and Emperor Palpatine would surely have used them. The question though is why he wouldn't have made more and more clones for an overpowering military. Perhaps he simply didn't have the resources for it. Of course he had Mount Tantiss on Wayland but we don't hear of any other secret storehouses, and the Moffs of the Remnant and Admiral Pallaeon seem to know nothing of them either. I do believe though that the vast majority of stormtroopers were regular humans. We also here many stories about the Imperial Military training center on Carida, where if you remember, Kyp Duron's brother Zeth was taken and later killed there.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:17pm
by Talon Karrde
I forgot to add to my first paragraph the Master Skywalker doesn't seem to sense that stormtroopers are clones in other places, only a few select times.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:31pm
by Stravo
Talon Karrde: My only answer to that is not a popular one....all these examples are from the E.U. whoch GL feels no need to adhere to unless he wants to. He simply never revealed that idea to anyone before AOTC and so the other stromtrooper ideas slowly filtered into the EU.
I think that AOTC has a "I am your father"moment, one that we saavy SW fans have ignored. The fact that clonetroopers are stormtroopers. We have had the EU and our own debates for years about this so it does not have the desired impact GL may have wanted it to have but if you just have the movies and NO EU then the impact of the revelation may be stronger. If there is someone out ther who knows what the hell I'm talking about when I say that GL said in an inetrview that the clonetroopers ARE stormtroopers PLEASE post that thread because it's really bugging me that I don't know it and it sounds like I'm one of those trekkies with an "unkown warsie" source when I KNOW I saw it on the official website's boards around the time of AOTC premiere.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:34pm
by Talon Karrde
Stravo, until George Lucas overrides the expanded universe text on stormtrooopers, I will continue to believe the expanded universe explanations, which seem to me are very good.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:35pm
by Talon Karrde
Also, if stormtroopers are clones, why not find the most brilliantly minded officers and clone them as well?? They all are different people and not clones. I think the advantage to different people is the oppurtunity to make different decisions. People with the same genetic code may make the same mistake over and over again, thus human beings that are not clones would suit the Empire's army or any army much better.
Posted: 2002-08-07 01:59pm
by Master of Ossus
Maybe it's cheaper to create stormtroopers from training people. Note that you do not have to grow them or train them for life. Also, there really is no benefit for training an army if they are primarily going to be used for police actions. Clones are primarily valued for their physical and mental prowess, but for police actions that benefit is more limited.
Posted: 2002-08-07 02:01pm
by SirNitram
Everyone referring to the Clones Thrawn made forgets one thing, growth time.
The clones in AOTC took 10 years to reach maturity. The clones in Thrawn's books took weeks to reach maturity. The reason you can't make a clone in under a year is because the Force drives them mad. These things are grown without the Force acting on them.. Which results in odd readings for Jedi. Normal clones are grown over a much longer period, thus the Force isn't driving them batty, and they don't grow in a Force 'void'.
There, neat and tidy.
Posted: 2002-08-07 02:16pm
by Talon Karrde
Although that is true, would not the same genetic code make the same kind of ripples in the Force so that you would still be able to sense them?
Posted: 2002-08-07 02:30pm
by Darth Garden Gnome
Indeed quick growth of clones makes em coo-coo. Thats why Thrawn employed the Yslamari (sp?) so they simply exsisted "outside" the Force.
That being said, it is doubtful that stormtroopers are clones. It would take far too long to amass an army that could control an entire galaxy from clones that needed to be grown for ten years. And considering Palpy had a single cloning facilty on Wayland, it would've taken an awful long time to get a good number of troops out there. Unless the cloning facility on Kamino was still operational at the time, but it still wouldn't have been able to make enough troops for a galacticarmy.
And Karrde, IIRC Thrawn did clone top ranking officers. He made stromtroopers from Veers' template, and TIE pilots from Baron Fel's template
Posted: 2002-08-07 02:33pm
by Talon Karrde
I'm not saying Grand Admiral Thrawn didn't, I know he did. But looking during the prime stages of the Galactic Civil War, Palpatine didn't employ clone officers (at least that we know of) Look of course at the many mistakes some made, Captain Needa and Admiral Ozzel to name a few. Vader simply "disposed" of them, but yet didn't clone officers. Both Palpatine and Vader went right through the Clone Wars, they would be able to decide the clones strong and weak points.
Posted: 2002-08-07 02:46pm
by Stravo
Gentlemen....a thread for your perusal pleasure...I draw your attention to the very last paragraph
http://www.starwars.com/databank/organi ... rs/eu.html
Posted: 2002-08-07 02:48pm
by Stravo