Logical bugs in AotC!

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-01-14 04:11am

I ask everyone if he/she has found any logical or other bug in AotC, please post it here.

1. The first I remember was at the scene when Padme wake up on the sandhill, on Geonosis and ask the clonetrooper to gather as many man as he can, they must reach that "HANGAR".

In fact she didn't have any clue where Dooku was heading for!
No one mention any hangar before Anakin and Obi-wan get there...

2. When Anakin duels with Dooku (Obi-wan has been already injured) he cuts an electric cable in two and we can see the light turns off in the hangar with a flashy effect. That gives the scene more dramatic effect. When Dooku slash Anakin's arm and Yoda arrives, the light comes back with him...physically too!!!

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-14 05:12am

1: Obi-Wan capturing Jango. How exactly was he going to take him back to Coruscant? The Delta-7 Aethersprite was too small.

2: Obi-Wan tossing his lightsabre to Anakin during the fight. In the next shot, Obi-Wan is nowhere to be seen. He should've been right next to Dooku and Anakin.

3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-14 05:13am

-possible explantions-

1. it was obvious that Dooku was heading or a ship of some sort, perhaps they saw the hangar over the horizon or it was just assumed that was where he was heading.

2. Backup generators?

most of my questions were answered by the Deleted scen. Such as to why they were in an arena when it would havemore expedient to kill them (Geonosian Legal Proceedings, also establishes Poggle the Lesser as an important and showed Amidala trying a diplomatic recourse) where Obi Wan got the Jedi Starfighter (jedi Council Hangar, really nice looking scene cut becuse the dialogue made the Jedi look weak).

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-14 05:16am

1. Probably by commandeering a ship from the Kaminoans or callin the Jedi for a pickup or even using Slave I, as a field agent he would have to accomplish this task regardless of wether he immediately had the means to do so or not.

2. No clue

3. While he was cruising over Geonosis he saw the TF battleships and set down close to them.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-01-14 06:00am

Vympel wrote:1: Obi-Wan capturing Jango. How exactly was he going to take him back to Coruscant? The Delta-7 Aethersprite was too small.

2: Obi-Wan tossing his lightsabre to Anakin during the fight. In the next shot, Obi-Wan is nowhere to be seen. He should've been right next to Dooku and Anakin.

3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?

1. In the spare parts bay...

2. Real bug...

3. Pure luck...He followed Fett's ship but didn't know where he's heading and what will he find there...

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-01-14 06:02am

3. When he got there he simply searched for the biggest power usage and...

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-01-14 10:57am

Don't forget the ludicrously unrealistic physique of the Kaminoans. If they are what they seem, they don't have any musculature.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-14 11:14am

3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?

We are forgetting a VERY pertinent fact. Obi Wan is a JEDI. Perhaps the Force was a guide and he just followed where it told him to land. Let's remember that it is establkished in TPM that there are no such things as lucky breaks, that the Force is a guide for Jedi and sometimes it acts wihtout the Jedi being aware of it and puts them in situations where they can help or get help. Obi simply followed his instincts and wala...Dooku was there.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-14 05:52pm

Vympel wrote:1: Obi-Wan capturing Jango. How exactly was he going to take him back to Coruscant? The Delta-7 Aethersprite was too small.

Forced hibernation trance. Steal his ship and clamp his own fighter on.

2: Obi-Wan tossing his lightsabre to Anakin during the fight. In the next shot, Obi-Wan is nowhere to be seen. He should've been right next to Dooku and Anakin.

The duel was originally a lot longer, including more Obi-Wan/Dooku fighting, more Anakin w/ just one-lightsabre fighting, and even Dooku w/ two lightsabres fighting Yoda w/ one (originally Yoda spent a lot of time on his feet too, and it wasn't pure muppet-on-crack...I'll try and find the still of Dooku in that scene). They edited a lot of it out.

3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?

Dooku is a Sith Lord. Jedi can sense the presence of other Force Users.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-14 06:02pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Vympel wrote:3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?
Dooku is a Sith Lord. Jedi can sense the presence of other Force Users.

Not necessarily. Windu, Yoda, and others couldn't detect Palpatine's Force-ness when they were in the same room. Of course, you can chalk it up to Palpatine being really skilled.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-14 06:37pm

Dooku probably wanted to capture Obi-Wan. Why would he hide himself when he could capture them and lure the Jedi there to be slaughtered-per the plan? It makes perfect sense.

Sardaukar · Post by **Sardaukar** » 2003-01-14 06:38pm

Vympel wrote:1: Obi-Wan capturing Jango. How exactly was he going to take him back to Coruscant? The Delta-7 Aethersprite was too small.

He said that he was going to contact the Jedi Council when he had captured him, this implies that he was going to capture him and contact the Jedi before leaving Kamino.
Probably the Jedi council would travel to Kamino for a pick up AND to check out the Clone Army.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2003-01-14 08:01pm

Vympel wrote: 2: Obi-Wan tossing his lightsabre to Anakin during the fight. In the next shot, Obi-Wan is nowhere to be seen. He should've been right next to Dooku and Anakin.

That's a sloppy edit. If you read the novel you'll discover that they duelled for a while before Obi-Wan threw his sabre to Anakin and that being cut out gives you the amazingly mobile despite nearly having his leg cut off Obi-Wan.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-01-14 10:20pm

Vympel wrote:
3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?

They found him.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-14 11:11pm

Well aside from Padme knowing about the hanger my biggest thought was on the timing for artoo relaying the message to Anakin. I think it rather clear that Artoo recieved the message as Obi-Wan was transmitting. Unless Artoo just recorded it THEN retransmitted while Anakin was watching I think it odd that Obi-Wan would have waited at his fighter's side doing nothing for a couple hours.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-01-15 02:31pm

The Problem with that scene wasn't the timing of Obi-wan (They could have recorded it).

It was rather the following:
1) They start playing the message.
2) Obi-wan tells them to relay the message to Coruscant
3) Amidala presses the magical button that does that. (The same button later magically shows a map and where Kamino is ...)
4) The Jedi's and Palpatine receive the message in Coruscant and listen to it. (They were together magically to receive a message they didn't know anything about)

It's not possible that they received this message later, because they talk with Amidala and Anakin right away.
It also can't be, that Amidala and Anakin have listened to it already, because of their reactions and the fact that Amidala only presses the magical button when Obi-wan tells them to.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-15 08:32pm

Vympel wrote:
3:How on all of Geonosis did Obi-Wan manage to find Dooku and the Seperatist leaders?

Jango would have known and landed close by. Obi Wan may have managed to track his ship part of the way down, and the concentration of Trade Fed ships would have been noticeable. He may also have known something of how the Geonosian layout there cites an been able to guess at what area held the capital offices.

We don't know how long it took anyway, he could have spent hours sneaking around and used the force to get the information from a guard or something like that.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-18 01:40pm

Padme presses a big red button in the ship that does two totally different functions (watch the scene again right before she and Anakin disobey orders and go off to rescue Obi-Wan).

(As pointed out in the AOTC DVD Audio commentary) Dooku's "solar sail" isn't big enough to get him across interstellar space. I have read Wong's explanations, but this is from the creators and their comments. They DID base it off the scientific concept of the solar sail. See also the Ask the Jedi Council question on solar sails on starwars.com.
They also point out on the DVD that Watto's wings wouldn't be powerful enough to allow him to fly. ; )

Numerous instances of Jedi/Sith not detecting each other (though, we could always say they were incompetent, selectively masking their presences, distracted, or just didn't let on that they could detect each other...):

Obi-Wan "sneaking up" on Dooku while he's meeting with Seperatists. Of course Dooku may have simply kept it to himself and Obi-Wan was captured later. But why was Obi-Wan so stupid? He knew that Dooku was a Jedi Knight!

Mace Windu (and the other 199 Jedi Knights) sneaking up on Dooku and his men in the arena on Genosis. Again, Dooku could have kept it to himself (he must have trusted that Mace wouldn't just kill him outright, rather than simply threaten him and Jango)... but then why were the Jedi all so stupid as to not mask their presence? So who goofed up and forgot to detect/mask presence? The Jedi or Dooku?

But then I guess if the Jedi Knights can't detect Palpy when his office is practically right next door to their's and they regularly are in his presence.. anything may be possible. ; )

I've heard the issue raised that the Jedi aren't "in their prime" in AOTC because the Dark Side is clouding their power, but recall that they couldn't detect Palpy, or Maul for that matter in TPM either. Maybe they are just REALLY powerful?

There may be more I missed...

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-19 11:43am

Oh yeah, and the "seismic" (the name and the way they work imply a sonic type weapon) charges from Jango's ship shouldn't work in the vacuum of space.

Badastronomy.com has some good stuff on AOTC and TPM as far as stacking it up against real science. ; )

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-19 06:43pm

Kurgan wrote:Oh yeah, and the "seismic" (the name and the way they work imply a sonic type weapon) charges from Jango's ship shouldn't work in the vacuum of space.

Badastronomy.com has some good stuff on AOTC and TPM as far as stacking it up against real science. ; )

Please see Wong's analysis of seismic charges. And why does 'seismic' imply 'sonic'?

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-19 08:06pm

Boba Fett wrote:I ask everyone if he/she has found any logical or other bug in AotC, please post it here.

1. The first I remember was at the scene when Padme wake up on the sandhill, on Geonosis and ask the clonetrooper to gather as many man as he can, they must reach that "HANGAR".

In fact she didn't have any clue where Dooku was heading for!
No one mention any hangar before Anakin and Obi-wan get there...

This may not necessarily refer to a starship hangar. Remember, Dooku was on a speederbike. She may have been referring to a vehicular hangar (ok, so it's a bit of a stretch...it seems possible).

D.Turtle wrote:It was rather the following:
1) They start playing the message.
2) Obi-wan tells them to relay the message to Coruscant
3) Amidala presses the magical button that does that. (The same button later magically shows a map and where Kamino is ...)
4) The Jedi's and Palpatine receive the message in Coruscant and listen to it. (They were together magically to receive a message they didn't know anything about)

Yeah, #3 really bugged me. 4 may not be a flaw, since the message may have been recorded and replayed for Palpy and the Council. Without knowing for certain that that was the first viewing for everyone in the room, I don't consider 4 to necessarily be a logic flaw.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-01-20 04:31am

Kurgan wrote: Obi-Wan "sneaking up" on Dooku while he's meeting with Seperatists. Of course Dooku may have simply kept it to himself and Obi-Wan was captured later. But why was Obi-Wan so stupid? He knew that Dooku was a Jedi Knight!

Mace Windu (and the other 199 Jedi Knights) sneaking up on Dooku and his men in the arena on Genosis. Again, Dooku could have kept it to himself (he must have trusted that Mace wouldn't just kill him outright, rather than simply threaten him and Jango)... but then why were the Jedi all so stupid as to not mask their presence? So who goofed up and forgot to detect/mask presence? The Jedi or Dooku?

Obi-wan didn1t know that Dooku is there on Geonosis. He just followed Jango.

I'd like to remind you that Dooku's primary goal was to start the Clone War. So I think he felt the presence of the Jedis.

The Jedis masked their presence to allow them to infiltrate the arena.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-20 11:14am

Perhaps.. maybe Jedi need to actively "scan" with the force in order to detect other force sensitives..

I had always assumed it was like "the buzz" from Highlander.. another immortal comes into your presence (say, within a few hundred meters or less) and suddenly BOOM you sense them, though you don't know for sure who it is (evidence: see ESB with Vader tracking Luke, see ANH with Vader detecting Obi-Wan and Luke "the force is strong with this one").

Perhaps it goes even further.. perhaps USE of the force gives you away, not simply existing nearby somebody. That would explain why the Jedi never detected Palpy, because they never thought to scan him and he never used the force in their presence (until he had become so powerful, he could simply "overshadow" their powers, perhaps... by the time of AOTC, note Yoda's "prying" look at him during their audience after Corde's death).

As to the seismic charges thing, I HAVE read Wong's apologetics about it, but as I pointed out, there are good reasons to believe its actually a logical gaff on the part of the filmmakers. We all know that the vast majority of sci fi ignore the "there's no sound in the vacuum of space" thing, despite its illogic, but there's more.

I know if we suspend disbelief we have to assume that there's some other mechanism and the sound and the name can be ignored. The solar sail thing also has more to it than Wong's interpretation. Despite his logical-sounding fixes, I think the people who created the effects/story (including probably Lucas himself) sacraficed realism in favor of drama and flashiness (as we all know Trek creators have done for decades).

I submit that the name "seismic" wouldn't have to be sonic, but the mechanism appears to be, with that unusual sound effect that's "delayed" and all that.

Anyway, here are some counter-points, which explain better than I could:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/movies/ ... eview.html

The bottom isn't necessarily proof one way or the other, but interesting:

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc ... 20617.html

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc ... 01030.html

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-01-20 12:01pm

The Dark: I specifically mentioned your point of disagreement in my post:
Read it again.
They receive the message - they can NOT be playing a recording of it, because they give Anakin and Padme orders right away (In the same Scene).
(That is unless my memory is totaly wrong).

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-20 06:13pm

Turtle, you know, they weren't all necessarily grouped together specifically to hear that message. They are politicians who work together, and as we saw earlier, have meetings about important things. They probably just were all together during a meeting when the message came (Anakin sends to Jedi Council, Jedi Council redirects message to Palpatine, seeing as that's where Yoda and Windu are). It was just a happy coincidence that the politicians happened to be there to hear it.

And Kurgan, just because it makes a cool sound does not mean that it is a sonic weapon. Sonic weapons do not make sense in space, so why would we assume that this was one? Notice that Phil Plait doesn't even give any reasoning for assuming that it was a sonic weapon other than that it made an interesting sound. Well, all the other space explosions in the movies make interesting sounds, but nobody would assume they were sonic weapons. Saxton has a pretty good explanation of the whole sound in space phenomenon. Basically, he theorizes (as I always imagined it when even when I was a little kid) that the sounds are artificially created by a ship's systems for the purpose of keeping sonic-oriented creatures aware of their surroundings.
Also, there's nothing about the blasts of seismic charges that is particularly sonic. I think Mike's theory about it being an application of force-field tech is much more sensible.

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