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(I'm not sure how long a thread can "lay fallow" before posting in it is considered thread necromancy, so this thread is in reference to this one)

The ysalamiri Force-negation ability supposedly evolved as a defense against the vornskyr, who hunt their prey using the Force. We know that ysalamir in large groups extend their "bubble" to a larger degree than the individual yslamir can; the "bubble" over their homeworld extends several miles over the forest top. Because of this, the Force cannot be used on the planet's surface.

The problem is that the vornskyrs still possess the ability to sense the Force - an ability which could be expected to atrophy, since it's currently useless in their habitat. One possibility is that the development of the ysalamiri ability is a relatively recent development. However, another possibility that occured to me is that the ysalamir can suppress the Force, but sufficient capability or sensitivity can overcome that effect (and it would follow that the vornskyrs' Force senses are highly developed).

Thoughts?

If you're asking what I would prefer to be the case, I would say the second one. A sufficiently skilled/powerful force user should be able to override the ysalamiri anti-force zone.

But I don't know if that's supported in the EU. Not that I care very much for the EU anyway. I have Zahn and selected other favourites, so I'm content.

As they can still sense Force users inside the bubble, which Luke found out the hard way when traipsing across Myrkr's forests with Mara, I would assume of those two, it's the latter.
If the suppression were complete and the Vornskr's Force sense simply hadn't had time to atrophy yet they'd be just as Force blind inside the bubble as Jedi seem to be.

Who says they have to rely on one sense and one sense alone?

Sniff, sniff....

Kuja wrote:Who says they have to rely on one sense and one sense alone?

Sniff, sniff....

Well there is the fact that they kept only going after Luke and for some reason ignored Mara.

Are you suggesting Luke smelled tastier?

Baal wrote:Well there is the fact that they kept only going after Luke and for some reason ignored Mara.

This fact in and of itself does not imply that the Vornskrs are using the Force to go after Luke; they could have simply thought he was the leader of a pack trespassing on their territory, or maybe they picked him and not Mara out as a meal.

Kuja wrote:Who says they have to rely on one sense and one sense alone?

Sniff, sniff....

I considered that, except for the fact that they always went after Luke, pretty much ignoring Mara (though I'd forgotten that they were still inside the forest at that point). Also, I don't have the books handy right now, but didn't Karrde's vornskyrs later show hostility to Mara on the world with the fortress (where presumably their Force senses would be sharper, but their other senses would be unchanged)

While it IS heavily implied that they do react to a person's Force sensitivity, Kuja has a point-since thanks to TPM there are biological indicators of Force sensitivity (barf) it is not inconceivable that Force sensitives DO smell differently than mundanes.

Or perhaps the Vornskyrs do not exlcusively hunt Ysalamiri. Just because one potential prey species has evolved a defense doesn't mean that all the others have also, and that force-sense might be quite excellent against other prey.

Its just as possible that this midichlorian BS Lucas made up could serve as a decent explanation if it somehow subtly changes the smell or otherwise highlights a force user without necessarily having to sense the force itself. It would explain why the Vornskyrs pulled so strongly towards Mara initially when Chin brought them into the same room as her, but (generally) ignored Mara when Luke was around in the forest.

There isn't any evidence that a sufficiently powerful force user can 'push through' their force dampening effect at all. Luke himself even at his most powerful (which is REALLY up there) has never been able to overcome or have any expectations of overcoming the effects.

Luke at his most powerful has IIRC never been AROUND Ysalamiri. I'm a little hazy on what I've read o the NJO but offhand the most powerful Luke we see is in DE and the Black Fleet Crisis (by all means correct me). No Ysalamiri there.
IF that happened post-NJO or elsewhere than the novels disregard though I'd appreciate a reference.

You know, as time goes on Luke gets more and more wanked. I like Luke. I'm sure we all do. That said, every time his power gets wanked out, an author takes something away from him to contrive a weakness. I know he isn't a god, but the most powerful good Jedi have been clear-minded and enlightened. I know that the Force was clouded by the Sith in the PT and Yoda & co.'s perceptions were diminished, but Luke gets constantly blindsided by the exploitation of these BS weaknesses. The Legacy series shows Luke's senses to be very diminished and I won't even talk about all the crap in The Dark Nest Trilogy ::BARF!::

I see the need to grow Luke up in power. I think some EU authors could be a little more practical in the application of this, however. Also, does Luke seem to be whining more as time goes on? I am so close to bailing on the EU. In retrospect, I don't really know how I have made it this long.

Batman wrote:Luke at his most powerful has IIRC never been AROUND Ysalamiri. I'm a little hazy on what I've read o the NJO but offhand the most powerful Luke we see is in DE and the Black Fleet Crisis (by all means correct me). No Ysalamiri there.
IF that happened post-NJO or elsewhere than the novels disregard though I'd appreciate a reference.

Err I think he grew more SKILLED as time went on and more mature, but his raw force potential didn't change did it?

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Batman wrote:Luke at his most powerful has IIRC never been AROUND Ysalamiri. I'm a little hazy on what I've read o the NJO but offhand the most powerful Luke we see is in DE and the Black Fleet Crisis (by all means correct me). No Ysalamiri there.
IF that happened post-NJO or elsewhere than the novels disregard though I'd appreciate a reference.

Err I think he grew more SKILLED as time went on and more mature, but his raw force potential didn't change did it?

Raw potential is useless unless you know how to tap into it. As Luke grew in sheer displayed power quite a bit between the OT/TTT and DE/the BFC trilogy I think we can safely assume he either DID grow more powerful, or grew skilled enough to ACCESS more of his inherent power.
So even IF overcoming the Ysalamiri Force dampening IS a brute force instead of finess feat, who says Luke had ACCESS to that force during HTTE regardless of wether he had it available?

I cannot remember how much exposure he had in "The New Rebellion" but the exposure was enough to stop Kueller.

Batman wrote:Luke at his most powerful has IIRC never been AROUND Ysalamiri. I'm a little hazy on what I've read o the NJO but offhand the most powerful Luke we see is in DE and the Black Fleet Crisis (by all means correct me). No Ysalamiri there.
IF that happened post-NJO or elsewhere than the novels disregard though I'd appreciate a reference.

JAT era Luke was visibly affected by ysalamiri, and even compared it to losing a limb. Granted, this wasn't JAT proper, but in Stackpole's I, Jedi retcon, but still.

EDIT: misworded.

I have ALMOST managed to purge the JAT from my memory but if what's left serves, JAT Luke has NOTHING on DE/BFC Luke (or even Courtship Luke).
Mind you, this is from blissfully incomplete memory.

Surlethe wrote:

Baal wrote:Well there is the fact that they kept only going after Luke and for some reason ignored Mara.

This fact in and of itself does not imply that the Vornskrs are using the Force to go after Luke; they could have simply thought he was the leader of a pack trespassing on their territory, or maybe they picked him and not Mara out as a meal.

If it happens once yes, when it happens every time then it becomes less likely.

Baal wrote:If it happens once yes, when it happens every time then it becomes less likely.

The point is that their Force-sensitivity is not the only possible explanation for their behavior, although their attacks could be linked to the Force sensitivity of the prey.

Surlethe wrote:

Baal wrote:If it happens once yes, when it happens every time then it becomes less likely.

The point is that their Force-sensitivity is not the only possible explanation for their behavior, although their attacks could be linked to the Force sensitivity of the prey.

Yes, it could, especially since similar has occured outside of Myrkr's environment. Consider Sturm and Drang: At the beginning of Dark Force Rising, they practically drag their handler up to Mara on the bridge. From Karrde's reaction, this is unusual, as Mara has been around them for a while, but the only change between earlier and present was Mara's increase in Force sensitivity.

Darth Fanboy wrote:I cannot remember how much exposure he had in "The New Rebellion" but the exposure was enough to stop Kueller.

And himself; IIRC he barely had enough strength to kill Kueller with his lightsaber. Something about the lightsaber feeling as heavy as lead or something.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Or perhaps the Vornskyrs do not exlcusively hunt Ysalamiri. Just because one potential prey species has evolved a defense doesn't mean that all the others have also, and that force-sense might be quite excellent against other prey.

Except that the ysalamir don't just hide themselves; they supress/negate the Force throughout their entire habitat.