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This is the case isn't it? But why? I think that the empire should be able to develop better fighters than the rebell alliance. Have the EU or something explained this?

I have not read expanded universe that much but it may be because they had to much work building the deathstars that the fighters were not as developed as they may should have been. Maybe the empire only saw the fighters as small and comfortable transportation ships or maybe a toy. Instead they focused on the huge deathstar weapon. And to protect that one they used mostly lasercannons as we all know.

Ties for being worse fighters seemed to do ok killing X-wings in the battle of Yavin. The whole thing about Ties being much weaker seems to be fan-boyism

The SFS TIE series kicks ass. Quite frankly, looking at the canon alone, I can see no appreciable logic to the 'Rebel fighters are superior' argument whatsoever.

The only conclusion to be made is a loss of pilot competence. How many Rebel fighters survived the Battle of Yavin? 10%. We don't see 27 fighters get destroyed. The TIEs must've got some of them.

How many Rebel fighters survived Battle of Endor? Harder to tell- look at what Red and Gold groups were reduced to when they charged at the Death Star II after the shield went down.

Weren't they outnumbered at the battle of Endor and they were trapped? and the battle of Yain I don't remember right now but didn't the Ties have a far easier mission. they just follwed the X wings who couldn't fight back?

Grog wrote:Weren't they outnumbered at the battle of Endor and they were trapped? and the battle of Yain I don't remember right now but didn't the Ties have a far easier mission.

That doesn't mean the fighters were inferior. There's nothing in the films to indicate that the TIE is somehow an inferior design.

they just follwed the X wings who couldn't fight back?

How is this an indictment of the TIE design, instead of the fucking idiots who flew them?

Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

but I don't have a oppinion on the matter I just thought that most people thought the ties were inferior. and wondered why the empire couldnt build better fighters

Grog wrote:Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

but I don't have a oppinion on the matter I just thought that most people thought the ties were inferior. and wondered why the empire couldnt build better fighters

1. TIEs aren't very much inferior at all. For their size they have great engine power and weapons loadout. Despite this, they're dirt cheap to make.

2. The Empire could, and did, build better fighters, as a complement to the standard TIE/ln. Point in case being the TIE Advanced, the TIE Avenger, and the failed TIE Phantom, just to name a few.

Don't forget the TIE Defender!

Mmmm "Uber" ship

TIEs are not worse than rebel fighters. Only they were designed for a different purpose.

While rebel crafts were used mostly in small numbers mostly in hit and fade operations, TIEs usually operate in flight groups (6 crafts).

The rebels are protected their pilots with shielded crafts because they were short on them.

The empire has wast resources in pilots. They were expendable...

Even the simple TIE Fighter however more manouverable than the
X-wing...

The unshielded version of the TIEs are kind of like the A6M2 Zero, fast and quite heavily armed, and more maneuverable in the most common combat regime (space in this case) too, but thinly protected.

The X-Wings are kind of like F4Fs. They are less maneuverable, but far more survivable.

If you are a combat vet that knows how to use a Zero or TIE Interceptor to the full, you can own the sky. Kind of anyway. But not everyone is that good.

So we have one X-Wing fighter and one TIE Fighter, both manned by rookie pilots. In a dogfight, they each make one mistake that allows the enemy to hit them. BUT, the X-Wing pilot has shields that let him take the mistake (as long as it isn't one that allows the TIE to put multiple shots into it.) The TIE gets disabled or destroyed by a glancing hit.

So the X-Wing pilot lives and the TIE pilot dies. Eventually, the average X-Wing pilot accumulates more hours than the TIE pilot (because too many TIE pilots got snuffed before they acquired ten combat sorties.) That means higher average pilot quality, and the pilot is still the most important factor in a dogfight where the planes are even marginally comparable.

The Empire got lots of pilots, so they're more expendable, but the experienced, good fighter pilot still needs to survive his first ten battles to get good, and too many of the Empire's potential aces died while learning their trade. The Empire does not seem to fully appreciate this.

If you pit the best fighter squadron (Rogue) that seems to be solely made up of aces versus some average TIE unit, it is no wonder the Rogues win and make their mount look superior than it really is.

That's the case in space dogfight combat. Of course, standard hyperdrives is an undeniable advantage to the average X-Wing, as is its antiship ability due to its torpedoes.

Grog wrote:Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

but I don't have a oppinion on the matter I just thought that most people thought the ties were inferior. and wondered why the empire couldnt build better fighters

are you smoking crack? The falcon killed 4 do you see that 4 ties. AFAIK the DS carried roughly 12 squardons of Ties.

A man like Baron Fel owned the Rebel pilots as did most of his 181st group. In the few times rebel pilots flew various Ties they owned ass also. Just read the Wraith Squadron books where they used mixed X-Wings and Interceptors there was no descerning difference between the fighters. As i said before the popular opinion about X-Wings is just fan-boyism.

Grog wrote:This is the case isn't it? But why? I think that the empire should be able to develop better fighters than the rebell alliance. Have the EU or something explained this?

The Alliance has put the majority of its money into building starfighters, whereas the Empire's design priority is in capital ships. Actually, the high-end Imperial starfighters are VASTLY superior to the Alliance designs (ref. TIE Phantoms in Rebel Assault, Missile Boat , TIE Defender, TIE Avenger, Scimitar bomber, etc.), but they are usually only given to elite units.

Depends on your viewpoint really.

Rebel fighters:

1.) have shields and possibly thicker hulls. This makes them harder to destroy.

2.) They carry warhead launchers. This gives them the ability to not only harm larger craft, but also a one-hit kill on any fighter.

3.) THey have hyperdrive - increasing their tactical flexibility.

4.) supposedly (according to the RSB) Rebel fighters have much better long range detection capability.

TIEs may seem to lack in alot of areas, but lets consider:

1.) They are much lower mass than X-wings, with superior engine performance. This gives them substantially greater speed/acceleration and agility.

2.) They have superior targeting systems (ref: SWICS - original trilogy) than the Rebels. Presumably, this also means their EW/ECM systems are superior, but not neccearily (but it seems likely)

3.) Their weapons are at least equal to, if not superior, than Rebel guns in terms of firepower and range (especially with their EW advantage) - it was indicated that to get comparable performance, X-wing lasers ran at nearly their maximum safety limits - presumably this means TIEs have better weapons.

In some ways, though - TIE weapons are clearly superior. They can fire and track off-center from the ship (giving them a much wider angle of fire) and the 2 lasers on a TIE fighter could match the four lasers on an X-wing for rate of fire. Presumably the "quad gun" interceptors and Avengers would be at least twice as fast as Rebel guns.

4.) TIEs are very compact targets with narrow profiles from head-on - and from the side, the only increased surface area are the radiator panels, which aside from being armored, are not neccesarily vital targets Contrast to the bulkier X-wings, which require substantially more space. This allows capital ships to naturally carry more TIEs than Rebel Starfighters (roughly a 2:1 ratio, it would seem.)

5.) It may be possible that TIEs have soem low level form of ray shielding (at least to protect the pilot and vulnerable systems) - this might offer some limited protection ot the ship.

It becomes apparent that the notion of "Advantage/disadvantage" depends on your doctrine. The Rebels have a huge production/personnel disadvantage ocmpared to the Empire. By focusing on quality over q uantity, they can insure that they conserve what little resources they do have from destruction. Their fighters are also designed more clearly for long-range, independent operations (Hyperdrive and better sensors) as well as engaging different targets (the inclusion of torpedoes and shields.

The Empire, however, can not only afford attritional losses (which makes a cheap to build and mainttain starfighter practical), but also numerical superiority, which means they can afford to fling MORE fighters at the Rebels as well. They also specialize their fighters - TIE fighters are non-jump capable (capital ships can do this), dedicated to specific tasks (TIE fighters engage fighters, bombers provide missile support, - there are numerous other TIE variants - fire control, recon, etc.) and so forth.

One must also consider that the emphasis on superior weapons, superior EW and targeting, small profile and high agility emphasize that the TIE fighter is designed for long-range engagements and to avoid being hit.

The oft-claimed "2 km" range for Rebel fighters is a visual range for the most part, and as we know from Han Solo at Star's end, close parity on EW/sensor systems can render long-range engagements unreliable, making visual ranging more practical. Presumably, in the post-Endor enviroment, the Rebel either upgraded their sensor/EW capability to Imperial standards, or Imperial sensors became less effective (with the logistical and production problems the warlords may have faced.) The Rebel Sourcebook also goes into some detail as to the preference of close-range fighting over long range between most SW vessels (at least from the REbel side of it)

If one couples the "long range targeting" doctrine with the "numerical superiority" advantage the Empire enjoys, things make more sense. In a single figh ter versus fighter basis (or small groups, say flights and maybe squadrons) - X -wings would clearly be superior. But in larger battles, where you get multiple variants working together (TIE Fighters/intereceptors to engage directly - TIE/fc fire control ships providing supplementary targeting data, TIE Bombers providing long-range missile fire.) TIEs can clearly not only bring greater concentrations of firepower to bear, but also from a far longer range (and maintain that range).

Darth Pounder wrote:

Grog wrote:Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

but I don't have a oppinion on the matter I just thought that most people thought the ties were inferior. and wondered why the empire couldnt build better fighters

are you smoking crack? The falcon killed 4 do you see that 4 ties. AFAIK the DS carried roughly 12 squardons of Ties.

A man like Baron Fel owned the Rebel pilots as did most of his 181st group. In the few times rebel pilots flew various Ties they owned ass also. Just read the Wraith Squadron books where they used mixed X-Wings and Interceptors there was no descerning difference between the fighters. As i said before the popular opinion about X-Wings is just fan-boyism.

I agree with you, but using the Imperial equivalent of Rogue Squadron as your proof is tantamount to Trekkie Bullshit (TM).

Darth Pounder wrote:

Grog wrote:Many of them were killed by the millenium falcon when they rescued Leia at the first death star.

but I don't have a oppinion on the matter I just thought that most people thought the ties were inferior. and wondered why the empire couldnt build better fighters

are you smoking crack? The falcon killed 4 do you see that 4 ties. AFAIK the DS carried roughly 12 squardons of Ties.

A man like Baron Fel owned the Rebel pilots as did most of his 181st group. In the few times rebel pilots flew various Ties they owned ass also. Just read the Wraith Squadron books where they used mixed X-Wings and Interceptors there was no descerning difference between the fighters. As i said before the popular opinion about X-Wings is just fan-boyism.

No I'm not smocking crack it was just a long time ago since I watched ANH. I just try to come up with arguments that the people who are convinced that the rebell fighters are better maybe use (my thread would be much more interesting if they were ).

The DS carries 7200 TIE fighters (at least)

Connor MacLeod wrote:3.) Their weapons are at least equal to, if not superior, than Rebel guns in terms of firepower and range (especially with their EW advantage) - it was indicated that to get comparable performance, X-wing lasers ran at nearly their maximum safety limits - presumably this means TIEs have better weapons.

I'd say they have shorter range and equal firepower but a much higher rate of fire per cannon (they maintain fire rates w/ both weapons simultaneously that the X-Wing has to fire one cannon at a time to match, which indicates a more efficient, easier to cool design). Also the ICS seems to indicate that the TIE's lasers are easy to maintain and cheap--for the performance they give, this makes them excellent weapons.

Connor MacLeod wrote:In some ways, though - TIE weapons are clearly superior. They can fire and track off-center from the ship (giving them a much wider angle of fire) and the 2 lasers on a TIE fighter could match the four lasers on an X-wing for rate of fire. Presumably the "quad gun" interceptors and Avengers would be at least twice as fast as Rebel guns.

We only saw Vader's fighter fire off-axis. No other TIE has observed this characteristic on screen or in game or EU. None.

Connor MacLeod wrote:5.) It may be possible that TIEs have soem low level form of ray shielding (at least to protect the pilot and vulnerable systems) - this might offer some limited protection ot the ship.

Unsupported. Don't invent things there is no evidence of being. Anti-concussion shields and navigation shielding? Maybe. Combat shielding? No evidence and no reason to suppose.

All in all I think each is equal but better in terms of what your strategic philosophy is.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The DS carries 7200 TIE fighters (at least)

More like 7,200,000.

Curiously, much of the Death Star appears inert and barren. TIE bays and TL and IC clusters seem to be centered around the engines, large docking bays, multipurpose trenches, and jamming arrays. Most of the surface is blank though.

Luckily for the Rebels, the DS only dispatched fighters under Vader's command, and the DS II probably hadn't recieved its true shipment of fighters at it's stage of construction, probably only a couple.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: I'd say they have shorter range and equal firepower but a much higher rate of fire per cannon (they maintain fire rates w/ both weapons simultaneously that the X-Wing has to fire one cannon at a time to match, which indicates a more efficient, easier to cool design). Also the ICS seems to indicate that the TIE's lasers are easy to maintain and cheap--for the performance they give, this makes them excellent weapons.

Range is more than just concentration of the bolts and strength of the weapon. Its also the quality of fire control and EW systems. With comparable power-guns, the edge in Fire control (esp with the TIE/FC support and/or capital ship support) gives a range advantage to the Imperials.

The ICS also indicates rebel lasers fire at maximum safety levels for the X-wing.

We only saw Vader's fighter fire off-axis. No other TIE has observed this characteristic on screen or in game or EU. None.

I suggest you re-watch ANH. I noted it several times.

Saxton originally noted this effect: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/ ... weapon.jpg

The "TIE fighter pocket manual" page 17 also says "the TIE fighter can aim its lasers independently of ship guidance, making it extremely difficult for a target under pursuit to escape destruction."

I note we enver see the "Targeting computer" method of locking onto the ship either (its always the game "green box" thingy, yet that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Unsupported. Don't invent things there is no evidence of being. Anti-concussion shields and navigation shielding? Maybe. Combat shielding? No evidence and no reason to suppose.

Its been observed that TIE fighters in the MF escape endured "flashes" that closely resembled shield interactions in ANH (originally noted by Brian Young, actually.) And navigational "ray" shielding would still qualify, even if it was of limited effectiveness.

The TIE design comes from an Imperial doctrine of making their pilots dependent on the mother ship. In addition to cost factors, they stripped their low-level fighters of hyperdrives, shields, and missiles primarily to discourage individuality... being so vulnerable required the pilots to work in a group.

In contrast, the design of Rebel fighters (which was actually the popular design of most fighters in the galaxy, not just the Rebels) allows one pilot to be a force to be reckoned with. A single fighter, with missiles and shields and hyperdrive, can be a threat to small freighters or even poorly-armed convoys. But this power also encouraged individual thinking, which is something that the Empire didn't want.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

We only saw Vader's fighter fire off-axis. No other TIE has observed this characteristic on screen or in game or EU. None.

I suggest you re-watch ANH. I noted it several times.

Saxton originally noted this effect: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/ ... weapon.jpg

The "TIE fighter pocket manual" page 17 also says "the TIE fighter can aim its lasers independently of ship guidance, making it extremely difficult for a target under pursuit to escape destruction."

I note we enver see the "Targeting computer" method of locking onto the ship either (its always the game "green box" thingy, yet that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Really? I'll have to watch ANH again. Though I have my doubts until I do.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Unsupported. Don't invent things there is no evidence of being. Anti-concussion shields and navigation shielding? Maybe. Combat shielding? No evidence and no reason to suppose.

Its been observed that TIE fighters in the MF escape endured "flashes" that closely resembled shield interactions in ANH (originally noted by Brian Young, actually.) And navigational "ray" shielding would still qualify, even if it was of limited effectiveness.

I doubt it. We haven't seen much evidence and it seems kind of nebulous and going out of its way to contradict official. Furthermore these supposed shields never actually do anything, the TIEs still explode in incandescent orange fireballs. I think it is safe to assume there is no combat ray shielding.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I doubt it. We haven't seen much evidence and it seems kind of nebulous and going out of its way to contradict official. Furthermore these supposed shields never actually do anything, the TIEs still explode in incandescent orange fireballs. I think it is safe to assume there is no combat ray shielding.

The a couple of the TIEs appear to take a hit to the center area and take no damage at all. The flash comes and goes, leaving nothing behind. Because the impact is in front of the cockpit, and there is no indication of damage, it seems reasonable that it could be a low-level shield. Enough to allow the fighter to survive a glancing hit or two, but not a concentrated attack. (X-wings tend to fire linked or quadded shots, which would typically punch right through this shielding if it exists.)

It could be a shield, or a very unusual property of armor in SW. (AT-ATs have some strange effects when they are hit at times.)

I'm not 100% sure, but I seem to recall some of the flashes occuring below the cockpit ball, where only a shield could have been. (I'd have to re-check the scene.) The only other thing that could be is very small flak bursts by the Falcon's guns.

Ugh. I don't know. When things get this iffy I think we're looking for contradictions between canon and official. I'll just go w/ the official til I see for myself.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The DS carries 7200 TIE fighters (at least)

But few were used due too Tarkin's arrogance. Lord Vader could only dispatch his fighter force which was than a Wing of Starfighters.