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We know from TPM that pod racing requires so much skill that it would ordinarily be impossible for a human. It follows that the aliens which take part have significantly greater reaction time than humans.

So why is it that humans are seen as such a good choice as fighter pilots? Shouldn't they be outmatched by a species with better reaction times, better situational awareness or whatever?

Might this have been a more sensible reason for rebel fighters to be that much better than their imperial counterparts?

It may simply be that, as all the biggest fighter production firms (Incom, Seinar, etc) are Human operated, and Humans appear to be the largest population group in the GFFA, fighters (at least those for major militaries) are designed primarily with Humans in mind and thus most alien species are simply unable to comfortably use them.

The innital distances in space combat are such that most of the advantage is negated, and the actual speeds involved would make most improvements marginal. It's the computers that do the lion's share of the work on a fighter, as opposed to a pod racer which hovers scant feet away from a sudden stop at all times. The pod stikes me as a much more unstable platform, one that a human being might not be able to handle. A fighter on the other hand, so long as you don't try to pull any stupid stunts is much more forgiving due to the distances at play.

Maybe because pod racers are shitty platforms that don't have computers to help the pilots out? And maybe because alien pilots have a better chance of surviving when their podracer explodes, whereas a human pilot would be dead or severely incapacitated?

The fact that Humans usually can't podrace dosent mean that all aliens could. Theres no proof, but im sure that at some point there was a non-human on the Chancellors seat and for the Old Republic senate to declare Podracing to be illegal (only planets with a Hutt "control" Tatooine, Malastare. etc have podraces) leads me to believe that its dangerous to race a pod for most people and aliens alike

as for the whole "shouldnt" aliens then be better than Humans in a space ship pretty much relies on who the ship is meant for.

I mean in RotJ its pretty clear that Chewie is having trouble with the Lambda class Imperial shuttle. Han: "I don't think the Empire had Wookies in mind when they made her buddy" then he has to warn Chewie his flying is too casual when not trying to fly casual.

But for a statisitcal like response 700mph in a pod on Tatooine is a hell of alot different then 700mph in an X-wing in space

plus quite a few of the aliens we see in TPM dealing with the pods are either smaller, have more arms, heads, shaped differently then humans.

The TMP novelization says it's not so much reaction time that counts as it is the possession of half a dozen arms and eyes all over your head. The problem with podracing is that everything's done manually, so a guy with two arms and no form of enhanced reactions or precognition is at a severe disadvantage.

In Tattoine Ghost, IIRC Han flew the pod racer course, in a much more powerful Swoop and lived to tell the tale...while under pursuit from speeder bike Stormtroopers blasting away.

Bounty wrote:The TMP novelization says it's not so much reaction time that counts as it is the possession of half a dozen arms and eyes all over your head. The problem with podracing is that everything's done manually, so a guy with two arms and no form of enhanced reactions or precognition is at a severe disadvantage.

Wouldn't automation only help the guy with six arms then? It seems like everything a human could do, the alien could as well. It's not as if a computer + pilot creates some sort of strange, two-arm physical interface limitation. Give the guy with six arms a heavily automated fighter, and it would stand to reason they could get more things done regardless.

Design issues brought up earlier in the thread would certainly hamper some aliens, but unless the controls are so closely spaced that anymore than two arms would cause interference, it seems they could do as much as their human counterpart and then some.

Elessar wrote: Design issues brought up earlier in the thread would certainly hamper some aliens, but unless the controls are so closely spaced that anymore than two arms would cause interference, it seems they could do as much as their human counterpart and then some.

Fighter cockpits DO tend to be a bit on the cramped side. I can't see a six-armed alien operating an X-Wing any better than a human could, if not worse, what with 4 of the arms being in the way (depends on the arrangement of the arms of course).

Give the guy with six arms a heavily automated fighter, and it would stand to reason they could get more things done regardless.

How so? Apart from pointing the nose in the right direction and pulling the trigger, it doesn't seem like a pilot has to do a lot of actual work in the cockpit. The X-wing is sufficiently automated (and sufficiently similar controls-wise to a simple hotrod) that a farmboy can hop in one and fly off; even the comparatively spartan TIE didn't require it's pilots to manually monitor dozens of engine settings. In fact, I don't recall them touching any controls except for the stick and those two little dials.

It would seem to me that flight controls have been streamlined to the point where you can get everything done with two arms easily. This is probably a side-effect of fighters being designed for humans, as said above, but that still makes extra arms a bit redundant.

Bounty wrote:It would seem to me that flight controls have been streamlined to the point where you can get everything done with two arms easily. This is probably a side-effect of fighters being designed for humans, as said above, but that still makes extra arms a bit redundant.

<R2-D2> Streamlined? Hah. It's muggins back here who does all the work.

NecronLord wrote:

Bounty wrote:It would seem to me that flight controls have been streamlined to the point where you can get everything done with two arms easily. This is probably a side-effect of fighters being designed for humans, as said above, but that still makes extra arms a bit redundant.

<R2-D2> Streamlined? Hah. It's muggins back here who does all the work.

After being hit Luke can still function in the attack run. so much of that automation is built into the fighter.

It appears that one of the reasons pod racing is so hard for humans is the speeds and the fact that most pod racing courses appear to be run through treacherous canyons with hairpin turns lft and right.

Like others have pointed out one of the reasons has to be that they just appear to be a pair of engines and a hover sled. With everything being done by hand it just might be too much for one human to do.

Even some modern fighters have two humans flying for this reason.

Aliens who are better pod racers than humans != every single species that is not human. I think most aliens are no better than humans at pod racing. Just because species x has great reflexes does not mean every other species has the same advantage over humans. Given the vast diversity of lifeforms in SW galaxy of course some species will have biological advantage over humans in some areas. But I think they number very little and wield little influence in the galaxy as they are not dominating starfighter corps across the galaxy. Humans appear to be the most numerous and influential species in the SW galaxy so it makes sense that most starfighters are built for human use even though a few minor species would make better pilots.

Do we have any additional proof beyond the word of a 9-year old that he's the only human that can do it?
This little runt has never been off the planet and I'm willing to bet that he's pretty fucking ignorant about the rest of the galaxy.

And speaking of reflexes, In a space battle I'd take situational awareness over reflexes anyday. That's what brings you home alive at the end of the day.

-Gunhead

no we only have the fact that Qui Gon Jinn did not dispute his statment.

Do we have any additional proof beyond the word of a 9-year old that he's the only human that can do it?
This little runt has never been off the planet and I'm willing to bet that he's pretty fucking ignorant about the rest of the galaxy.

IIRC Wattoo confirms this in the novel; the TMP ICS also states that pod racing is "too much for humans to handle" (translated from Dutch version, the wording may be different in the original).

I have not played KOTOR in a while but dont you encounter many human swoop racers during the game ? If I recall correctly there is even a quest in KOTOR 1 one about the premiere swoop bike racer on Tatooine (I think his name was Niko). He was a human. And in early segments of the first game the protoganist wins a crucial swoop race against alien opponents on Taris when he is still a mere human unaware of his force powers. Swoop racing is similar to pod racing so if it was impossible for humans you would not see so many humans swoop racers.

Swoop racing is similar to pod racing so if it was impossible for humans you would not see so many humans swoop racers.

Three things to note:

* Swoop racing , IIRC, takes place on an empty track à la rally, making it significantly less complex compared to podracing
* Swoop racing was officially considered less dangerous than podracing, which at least suggests the latter is more challenging considering the basic principle is the same.
* Swoops look far more stable and easier to control than podracers. At least they don't have entire articulating sections.

Also, in Tatooine pod racing at least, anything goes. Midair collisions, flame throwers, Sand people firing down at the racers; it all happens without punishment. In KOTOR, swoop racing is time trail based, not an actual all-participants-at-the-same-time race. Thus swoop racing would be much easier for a human to handle.

Lord Relvenous wrote:Also, in Tatooine pod racing at least, anything goes. Midair collisions, flame throwers, Sand people firing down at the racers; it all happens without punishment. In KOTOR, swoop racing is time trail based, not an actual all-participants-at-the-same-time race. Thus swoop racing would be much easier for a human to handle.

Of course, "modern", Imperial-era swoop racing is completely different. The swoops used are far smaller and less stable, and the courses are often extremely hazardous, if there are courses at all. even so, non-Force sensitive humans are able to become capable pilots; Han Solo and Dengar, for example.

Noble Ire wrote:Of course, "modern", Imperial-era swoop racing is completely different. The swoops used are far smaller and less stable, and the courses are often extremely hazardous, if there are courses at all. even so, non-Force sensitive humans are able to become capable pilots; Han Solo and Dengar, for example.

Wouldn't it be possible that swoops have a certain amount of built-in collision avoidance system, while pod-racers do not have any automation at all?
If you look at RotJ, we see speeder bikes having some sort of anti-collision system, as a lot of the time neither Leia, Luke, nor the scout troopers look where they are heading, but still maneuver around trees and the like (most of the time).
The swoops having a similar (limited) system would make it possible for humans to compete, while the completely manual pod-racing would be pretty impossible for humans to effectively race in.

D.Turtle wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:Of course, "modern", Imperial-era swoop racing is completely different. The swoops used are far smaller and less stable, and the courses are often extremely hazardous, if there are courses at all. even so, non-Force sensitive humans are able to become capable pilots; Han Solo and Dengar, for example.

Wouldn't it be possible that swoops have a certain amount of built-in collision avoidance system, while pod-racers do not have any automation at all?
If you look at RotJ, we see speeder bikes having some sort of anti-collision system, as a lot of the time neither Leia, Luke, nor the scout troopers look where they are heading, but still maneuver around trees and the like (most of the time).
The swoops having a similar (limited) system would make it possible for humans to compete, while the completely manual pod-racing would be pretty impossible for humans to effectively race in.

I suppose that there is a possibility that such a safety feature exists, but I've never seen it referenced in any official literature, and indeed, swoops and, to a lesser extent, their speeder bike counterparts, are noted as being extremely dangerous and difficult to pilot. The rather poor performance of the bikes on Endor would seem to further cast doubt on the theory; some of the impacts appeared to be quite avoidable, especially if such a device was active.

The rather poor performance of the bikes on Endor would seem to further cast doubt on the theory; some of the impacts appeared to be quite avoidable, especially if such a device was active.

The device would obviously have limits, especially on military bikes that are probably optimized for performance. The Endor chases look almost impossible to do for a regular human with limited speeder bike training unless there's some sort of pilot assistance - and we know that technology like that would be trivial in the SW universe, especially as it already exists in limited form in the real world.

Noble Ire wrote:I suppose that there is a possibility that such a safety feature exists, but I've never seen it referenced in any official literature, and indeed, swoops and, to a lesser extent, their speeder bike counterparts, are noted as being extremely dangerous and difficult to pilot. The rather poor performance of the bikes on Endor would seem to further cast doubt on the theory; some of the impacts appeared to be quite avoidable, especially if such a device was active.

The best I could find was clip on youtube. It includes the scene I meant (starting at about 1 minute into the youtube video).
If you look at the video you can see the scout trooper look behind him for about 3 seconds (1:07-1:10), while at the same time doing a right and a left turn through the woods. As can be seen previously, the woods they are driving through are quite dense, so the chance of hitting a tree would be quite large - especially when making turns while not looking where you are heading.
I think that the scene is proof enough that there has to be some kind of collision avoidance system.

D.Turtle wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:I suppose that there is a possibility that such a safety feature exists, but I've never seen it referenced in any official literature, and indeed, swoops and, to a lesser extent, their speeder bike counterparts, are noted as being extremely dangerous and difficult to pilot. The rather poor performance of the bikes on Endor would seem to further cast doubt on the theory; some of the impacts appeared to be quite avoidable, especially if such a device was active.

The best I could find was clip on youtube. It includes the scene I meant (starting at about 1 minute into the youtube video).
If you look at the video you can see the scout trooper look behind him for about 3 seconds (1:07-1:10), while at the same time doing a right and a left turn through the woods. As can be seen previously, the woods they are driving through are quite dense, so the chance of hitting a tree would be quite large - especially when making turns while not looking where you are heading.
I think that the scene is proof enough that there has to be some kind of collision avoidance system.

That seems logical to me; it also seems likely that under normal circumstances, the speeders would not be travelling that quickly; the scouts were racing to try and lose the Rebel pursuit. Perhaps what collision-avoidance features the scouts had were designed to deal with lower velocities?

It's been awhile since I saw RotJ; I remember that one scout is blown up by Chewie's bowcaster (pretty powerful, that thing), another's bike gets its front fins entangled in Luke's (and would thus seemed unlikely to be able to maneuver), and another's front assembly is sliced off wholesale by Luke's lightsaber, and immediately goes terminally out of control into a tree.

Are there any collisions we see in RotJ that don't result from damage to the speeder's maneuvering fins or those brake flaps on the back?