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He [caffeechris] is arguing that real life weapons are vastly more powerful than Star Wars weapons. I KNOW this isn't true, but my arguments in this topic I feel are losing it and my debating skill is not up to snuff lately.

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/ ... 632&page=8

His basic points are,

1. That Star Wars lasers are much, much, slower than real life projectiles and are less effective at killing.

2. That a Jedi could never stop a bullet.

3. That the Terminator's laser guns ARE plausible.

I know some of my arguments really suck tonight, so I need any help I can get to salvage this debate. [/quote]

1. They may be slower, but not by enough to matter. Somewhere on these boards a bunch of screen caps show concussion grenade level explosions.

2. tell him that they have precog and can melt bullets.

CaptHawkeye wrote: 1. That Star Wars lasers are much, much, slower than real life projectiles

Bullshit. Blaster bolts speed vary from slower to real life bullets to about the same speed, dependent on distance. Blaster bolts which streak across the Geonosis battle field are at the high end of the spectrum, for example.

and are less effective at killing.

Oh yeah, right. Because a bullet could do any of the following:

This:

Sandcrawler 1

Sandcrawler 2

was done by Stormtroopers, armed with E-11s, DLT-19s, and T-21s.

Let's quote the ANH novel:

Kenobi turned his attention to the sandcrawler. He pointed out where single weapons' bursts had blasted away portals, treads, and support beams.

Moving on.

This:

Greedo, Pre-Death

Greedo, hit

Greedo, dead

Note that Greedo's smoking corpse can be heard to be sizzling in the movie.

This:

Chest-burn

and

Chest-burn 2

Killed the troops in question.
This:

Grate

Grate-2

The weapon is, again, an E-11.

This:

Bolt incoming

Impact

Impact-2

Scar

The weapon is Boba Fett's EE-3.

This:

Hole

The weapon is, again, an E-11.

This:

Pre-Impact

Impact-1

Impact-2

Impact-3

Impact-4

It's an E-11.

So is this:

Pre-Impact

Impact-1

Impact-2

And this:

Hole-in-armor

Hole-2

And this:

Impact-1

And this:

Link

And this:

Impact-2

Impact-2

2. That a Jedi could never stop a bullet.

Ask the douche to prove it.

3. That the Terminator's laser guns ARE plausible.

And he bases this on what?

As to this idiot's arguments:

Actually the website says "torso sized." Show me a dude who has a 2-meter torso and I'll buy it.

No modern handgun could do an equivalent feat. Ergo, his claims that bullets are more lethal is bullshit.

You mean the droid she had complete control of?

I didn't see where Zam Wessell made the droid easy to hit by giving some sort of command to it. He is making shit up.

You should rewatch Attack of the Clones. The clone troopers are about three meters away from the droids they are shooting at.

No, he's lying.

There are no HUD displays shown in the film for clone troopers.

Irrelevant, they are there. AotC:VD and RotS:VD

Aside from the part that while weapons are flashier, they are actually less effective. You could literally dodge blaster bolts.

Uh huh.

Speed varies wildly.

Here's one example:

Frame before firing:



First frame of firing:



Very next frame:



Distance looks about 10 metres, so that's 125m/s, or, 450km/h. i.e. it took .08 of a second for the bolt to travel that far (25 frames per second, 2 frames, 2/25 = .08 of a second).

There's bolts that travel km/s at the other end of the spectrum- in particular, the ones that streak across the Geonosis battlefield throughout the battle at the end of AotC, like where these blaster bolts from Clonetrooper formations have streaked out of sight across the plain in less than 10 frames here:



Or here, where fire from the droid infantry do the same in roughly 5-6 frames?



Or most obviously here:



Or these blaster bolts spraying away on the plain below the gunships:



All roughly 1000m/s and over given the long distances they're travelling in just a few frames.

And just for shits and giggles, here's Mace Windu deflecting one:



That's just for reference. The entire battle from all angles is replete with it.

Dictated by the whim of the screenplay writer. For instance Sidious did not foresee Vader's betrayal. Yoda did not foresee Palpatine's takeover.

How can you possibly think you're losing a debate to a douchebag who doesn't even accept suspension of disbelief? Qui-Gon Jinn states in Episode One that Anakin can see things before they happen- that's why they appear to have such fast reflexes. The reason Sidious didn't foresee Vader's betrayal is because he was force lightning Luke at the time. The reason Yoda didn't foresee Palpatine's betrayal is stated directly in Attack of the Clones- the shroud of the dark side makes it difficult to see.

Of course- this has no bearing on combat precognition- ie. their ability to deflect projectiles.

ME: Better accuracy? Yeah, better accuracy then Zam Wessel's sniper rifle which was able to nail the small droid Kenobi was hanging onto at several kilometers?

HIM: You mean the droid she had complete control of?
---
ME: Jedi have fast reflexes AND see into the future.

HIM: Dictated by the whim of the screenplay writer. For instance Sidious did not foresee Vader's betrayal. Yoda did not foresee Palpatine's takeover
---

ME: Also be aware that bullets are physical projectiles, which Jedi can manipulate through the Force. They wouldn't even need their lightsabers.

HIM: So are blaster bolts. They are physical particles. Mass and energy is all the same. If bullets can be manipulated ala Neo in the Matrix, then so can blaster bolts. Furthermore some Jedi succumb even to blasters (see Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith) which means weapons with faster travel time would be just that much more effective.

See above. You'll note that my screenshots handily demonstrates him to be a total liar about Geonosis (ie. his "three metre" claim).

Thank you for your help Vympel. I will attempt to post as much counter info as I can, but Gamespot's posting system is a technical nightmare, opting for style over substance. It takes a long time to load and it breaks down often. So I will post a few pics at once, and if he continues, I will continue to beret him with more of your well found, bullshit slaying, evidence.

EDIT: Also, the thread's oringinal point was a debate about the plausability of Halo's weapons. None of which are realistic. A few people responded to the debate correctly, (I made a few small nitpicks) a few didn't, contributing nothing other then "ZOMG teh lame geeks". THEM I handled well, I know. Eventually, one of them posted something along the lines of "Let's all talk about how implausible and unwieldy Star Wars weapons are!" I posted a link to the SD.net Tech page, and the argument began.

You should grant that a faster weapon would give you a greater chance of success against a Jedi, but he is severely underestimating the speed of blaster bolts, is simply outright wrong about their lethality (as he implicitly conceded by changing the argument to what "torso-sized" meant as opposed to dealing with the fact that no modern handgun could do what Han's pistol did, never mind all the other screenshots I posted which come from a mere SMG sized weapon), and violating SoD at will.

Yes, which standard Clone Trooper blasters are all capable of and more.

10km when mounted on a tripod (AotC:ICS). Or just look at Kashyyyk. They're firing on droid tanks over a km away.

Then how exactly do you think they were able to continue fighting in the dust storm from the crashing core ship? Magic?

Why don't you just reference canon sources- the AotC Visual Dictionary and the RotS Visual Dictionary?

Like that poor bastard Greedo?

Bad example. Greedo is sitting down and has no idea.

Why don't you just reference canon sources- the AotC Visual Dictionary and the RotS Visual Dictionary?

I don't have them at hand, unfortunantly.

Bad example. Greedo is sitting down and has no idea.

Indeed, I should have rethought that one. If he tries to hit that one, i'll concede it partially, then throw up the extra Geonosis/Obi Won vs. Jango shots.

CaptHawkeye wrote: I don't have them at hand, unfortunantly.

So? You don't need to quote them exactly. That's what they say. If he raises a stink, Wookiepedia is good enough, paraphrasing the relevant sources quite well.

Vympel wrote:

CaptHawkeye wrote: I don't have them at hand, unfortunantly.

So? You don't need to quote them exactly. That's what they say. If he raises a stink, Wookiepedia is good enough, paraphrasing the relevant sources quite well.

So Wookiepedia is a relevant and fairly reliable source to find Star Wars info? Excellent, it will be VERY helpfull in future debates.

CaptHawkeye wrote: So Wookiepedia is a relevant and fairly reliable source to find Star Wars info? Excellent, it will be VERY helpfull in future debates.

Not always, but in this instance it is paraphrasing the sources (which I don't have with me because I'm not at home, but which I know quite well nonetheless). And the sources are listed on the relevant page about Clonetroopers. Claims without sources don't last long if it's on a well-known page.

It's not the HUD that's relevant actually, it's their multi-spectral imaging systems.

Oh man,

ME: Show me a modern handgun that can blow a torso sized hole in a wall.

HIM: HK79, moving right along.

ME: That's a GRENADE LAUNCHER you moron. I'm talking about a hand gun. What part of HAND GUN do you not understand?

"I have you now"

Oh, and on a lighter note,

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3824/stormgren3qj8.jpg
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/04/32/platoon.jpg

Check it out, it's Willem Dafoe trooper!

LOL. He walked right into that one.

Post some of the other screenshots of blaster bolt impacts. I love it how he tries to dismiss the grate because he can't think of how it managed to blow a hole that large with a single shot and so he's allowed to dismiss it.

A lot of dumbshits have a totally unrealistic idea of how fast real-life bullets move, for the simple reason that they can't see them in flight with the naked eye. I actually posted a short video of a Russian APC firing its cannon once. Tracer rounds made it really obvious how fast the shells were moving, and if you compared that clip with a typical Star Wars action sequence, it would be pretty hard to keep claiming that real-life bullets smoke SW blaster bolts.

Darth Wong wrote:A lot of dumbshits have a totally unrealistic idea of how fast real-life bullets move, for the simple reason that they can't see them in flight with the naked eye. I actually posted a short video of a Russian APC firing its cannon once. Tracer rounds made it really obvious how fast the shells were moving, and if you compared that clip with a typical Star Wars action sequence, it would be pretty hard to keep claiming that real-life bullets smoke SW blaster bolts.

I remember showing that videoclip (hosted on rapidshare) on SB.com to refute just such a simple-minded argument. The response was "but we don't know how fast those shells are moving"- needless to say, them trying to tell me of all people that the speed of a round from a 2A72 cannon was unknowable didn't get very far.

I have a question about the variable speed of blaster bolts. It seems in some scenes blaster shots move slowly while in others such as the battle of genosis they are much faster. It appears that blaster bolts move faster in longer range battles. At short range most targets can not move fast enough to evade even slow bolts while at long range a faster bolt is needed. Could it be possible that blasters have a rangefinder that automatialy adjusts appropriate bolt speed ?

Possibly, but the only reason I could think of for slowing it down is so the gunner can properly see the tracer (I believe that's what the light was determined to be), and I don't see the point of that for Jango (One of the better gunslingers of Star Wars) firing at someone 10m away...

Well it is possible that faster bolts do less damage so they are used only at long range.

Sarevok wrote:Well it is possible that faster bolts do less damage so they are used only at long range.

The problem with that is Jango would've been better served at firing faster than doing more damage, against a Jedi, since the best way to get by the Jedi's precog is to rain as much fire on him as possible, and I'd have a hard time believing Jango couldn't modify his blasters to manually control the speed (If it did change with distance), we all saw how much he modified his Mandalorian Armour (Hint: During the late Republic, the armour we see Boba wear is the default Mandalorian Armour.)

I am not sure about that. Jedi have impressive energy absorbtion powers. Vader causaly absorbed Han's blaster bolts, a blaster modified to pack heavier than usual punch. While fighting Jango Obiwan took some serious near hits from Slave-1's primary guns. I would post screenshots but my EP 2 DVD is in sorry state. Also he and Anakin did not even notice the intense heat of dueling near molten lava that would have set a man on fire (like it eventualy did to Anakin after his injuries shut down his powers). So it stands to reason that when fighting a Jedi you better be using the highest possible power setting on your blaster.

Actually, Vader deflected Han's blaster, whilst wearing armour that can take glancing blows from a lightsaber, and every single time they've shown the ability to absorb these energies, they've always had time to start concentrating, if it were as simple as turn on/off, Ki-Adi Mundi would've been able to last longer than he did.

He's now resorting to Mike's favorite, ignoring the higher end of the spectrum, and concentrating on the low. Now he's claiming that because Leia didn't burst into flames when she was shot in ROTJ, blasers are weak.

EDIT: By the way Mike, he's claiming that the Clone Trooper rifles are sniper rifles because your analysis page says so. Are you sure they are sniper rifles? Don't they demonstrate more of the properties of an assault rifle?

Does anyone have that picture that shows the blaster bolt missed her? It's basically the blast transposed over the screenshot from right before it hit.

Edit: In the same way an M16 is a Sniper Rifle, in other words, you could convert an M16 into an M655 or M656 or SDM-R or SAM-R, but that doesn't make the M16 a sniper rifle. The only Sniper Rifles we've seen have been in video games, and they tend to fire a beam for a fraction of a second.