endor

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 03:53pm

is the rebel fleet at endor in rotj the entire rebel fleet?

Yellowman · Post by **Yellowman** » 2003-01-22 08:30pm

"From here, you will witness the final destruction of the Alliance, and an end to your insignificant Rebellion."

I'd say the Emperor would know

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-22 08:35pm

No it was not, However this fleet was unique in the fact they had nearly all their top brass and certinaly their best to Commanders Along

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-22 08:36pm

I'm sure yes, because the Alliance was hardpressed even to get fighters and supplies for its war effort.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2003-01-22 08:37pm

jaeger115 wrote:I'm sure yes, because the Alliance was hardpressed even to get fighters and supplies for its war effort.

Yes, but wouldn't YOU set aside some good people to continue on if you don't make it? I'm with Bean here. Can't quote any sources at the moment.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-22 08:39pm

I'm gonna have to go with Bean here. I doubt the Rebels would've thrown everything into the fight for two reasons.

A.) If they did lose, they would still have some ships floating around.

B.) They still needed ships to protect any of their other stuff while Endor was happening.

Rather, we have Ackbar, Madine, Mothma(?), and of course Han and Lando, all riding on the outcome of this battle. Should they all die, the Rebs would've been hard-pressed to replace them.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-22 08:57pm

I don't think they sent the whole fleet, for the simple reason that they didn't think they had to. They expected maybe a few ISDs, not an entire Sector Group.

Seele · Post by **Seele** » 2003-01-22 09:16pm

I think the RA sent most of their big guns in hopes of concentraiting their firepower. As for the number of top brass, what evidence that is there that Mon Mothma remained with the fleet when it jumped to Endor?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-01-22 10:31pm

Seele wrote:I think the RA sent most of their big guns in hopes of concentraiting their firepower. As for the number of top brass, what evidence that is there that Mon Mothma remained with the fleet when it jumped to Endor?

Wasn't she at the Ewok celebration thingy? No... I'm just remembering wrong... Right?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-01-22 10:34pm

I would say that, no they did not have the whole rebel fleet at Endor. The original mission was to destroy a large but non functional battle station. The possibility of some defensive measure and the shear size of the target prompted them to assemble a large taskforce of heavy hitters (hence the large complement of MonCal ships).

Their original plan was for the Cruisers to form a perimiter around the station, probably to surpress any defensive fire and/or interdict any smaller ships from escaping. Here the fighters were suppost to attack the reactor. I noticed they brough a shit load of fighters with them.

So with this all in mind, why would they assemble the entire fleet for a point destruction raid on a (they thought at the time) under defended target. The whole fleet was not required because the death nail was suppost to be the fighters entering the DS and killing it from the inside not an fleet of ships pounding it from the outside.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-22 10:35pm

The losses at the battle where suppose to be about 20% of the entire Alliance fleet. If that included ships retained under the flag of major supporters, like the Bothans, I don't know. I doubt it though.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-22 10:36pm

Operational security might also have been compromised by moving their entire forces to one point. There's only so much you can get away with in absolute secrecy (of course, Palpatine knew it all anyway, but they couldn't have known that).

Yellowman · Post by **Yellowman** » 2003-01-22 11:18pm

Actually, now I've fired up the memory circuits, didn't Vader warn about a Rebel fleet massing at (some place I don't remember), to which Palpatine dismissed? Or was that the fleet that attacked the Death Star. Sorry, I'm no Warsie; I've only got my poor recollection of the films to draw on.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 2003-01-22 11:21pm

Yellowman wrote:Actually, now I've fired up the memory circuits, didn't Vader warn about a Rebel fleet massing at (some place I don't remember), to which Palpatine dismissed? Or was that the fleet that attacked the Death Star. Sorry, I'm no Warsie; I've only got my poor recollection of the films to draw on.

Rebel Fleet amassing near Sullust.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 11:21pm

sullis. I figure they started there, and hyperspaced over to the ds. makes less sense for there to be two fleets, one of which has no other mention.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-22 11:56pm

Yeah, all the shots of the fleet before they jump to hyperspace is at the rally point in the Sullust system. Sullust is a very important system economically, and it had been Imperial until just prior to the ROTJ events. As a sign of their loyalty to their new rebel friends, they offered their system to be used as the staging grounds for the Rebel fleet.

generator_g1 · Post by **generator_g1** » 2003-01-22 11:57pm

In the novelization, I think it says that the Rebellion was going to do what it had never done before, engage the enemy like a traditional army.

generator_g1 · Post by **generator_g1** » 2003-01-23 12:00am

Robert Treder wrote:Yeah, all the shots of the fleet before they jump to hyperspace is at the rally point in the Sullust system. Sullust is a very important system economically, and it had been Imperial until just prior to the ROTJ events. As a sign of their loyalty to their new rebel friends, they offered their system to be used as the staging grounds for the Rebel fleet.

Also there doesn't seem to be as many cap ships jumping into hyperspace on the way to the DS.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-23 12:01am

Sea Skimmer wrote:The losses at the battle where suppose to be about 20% of the entire Alliance fleet. If that included ships retained under the flag of major supporters, like the Bothans, I don't know. I doubt it though.

Also note that Admiral Piett (I think) said something like, "We need not attack. I hear that the Emperor has something special in surprise for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."

If the ISDs + Executor had gone in and opened up on the rebel fleet with everything they had, I seriously doubt the Rebel losses would've been a meager 20%.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-23 12:09am

generator_g1 wrote:
Robert Treder wrote:Yeah, all the shots of the fleet before they jump to hyperspace is at the rally point in the Sullust system. Sullust is a very important system economically, and it had been Imperial until just prior to the ROTJ events. As a sign of their loyalty to their new rebel friends, they offered their system to be used as the staging grounds for the Rebel fleet.
Also there doesn't seem to be as many cap ships jumping into hyperspace on the way to the DS.

I don't know, there seemed to be quite a few to me.

This is immediately before the jump from Sullust to Endor (taken from Saxton). The cruiser Home One is present on the left, plus a mile-long destroyer (Mon Cal on the right), a frigate and three corvettes. Plus four transports (laden with explosives for kamakaze runs, according to the canon novelisation).

This image (again, from Saxton) is of low quality, but in the distance just behind Home One you can spot at least one capship of unknown class. Those other three behind the Falcon might just be transports; I'd have to see it in motion to be sure. Once again, this is at the Sullust staging area.

I see no reason to think that almost all, if not the entire Endor fleet was at Sullust. The camera obviously doesn't dwell on each one (and indeed some unfinished models are used, as evidenced by that unidentified, elongated ship), but I'd assume they're all there. No official source indicates that forces jumped from any other location.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-23 12:17am

Shinova wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:The losses at the battle where suppose to be about 20% of the entire Alliance fleet. If that included ships retained under the flag of major supporters, like the Bothans, I don't know. I doubt it though.

Also note that Admiral Piett (I think) said something like, "We need not attack. I hear that the Emperor has something special in surprise for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."

If the ISDs + Executor had gone in and opened up on the rebel fleet with everything they had, I seriously doubt the Rebel losses would've been a meager 20%.

That was before the rebels engaged the fleet. I agree that if the Imperials took the offensive, they'd do much more damage, and they'd have taken fewer fighter casualties, as well.
The line goes like this:

OFFICER: We're in attack position now, sir.
PIETT: Hold here.
OFFICER: We're not going to attack?
PIETT: I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping.

It seems the Emperor intended for Death Squadron to pin the Rebel Fleet in place, then have the Death Star show its teeth and pick off the Rebel Cruisers (something special planned for them). This part of the plan succeeds.
Then, Ackbar takes the fleet into a close-quarters brawl with Piett's fleet. This presumably hampers the DS from attacking, for fear of friendly fire.

EDIT: At this point, the Imperial fleet opens up and attacks. From this point on to the end, the rebels take 20% damage. We know they lost two ships to the DS (the Liberty and one Mon Cal of unknown class). The rest must be due to the Imperial fleet. I wonder if the 20% includes the transports as part of the fleet, seeing as they were intended to perform suicide attacks.
There was one source, I think the Bakura Sourcebook, that stated that the fleet battle continued for four hours after the DS was destroyed before Pellaeon called the retreat. In that time, not one Imperial ship surrendered, though several were destroyed.

The rest, as you know, is history.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-01-23 02:31am

generator_g1 wrote:In the novelization, I think it says that the Rebellion was going to do what it had never done before, engage the enemy like a traditional army.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a page number on that?

I don't see the tactics of the original plan to attack the DSII any different that the traditional rebel tactics of hit and fade raids. Granted they had to fight the Imperial Fleet at Endor, but the original plan was not one of a battle this size. I don't think they ment to occupy Endor, and they didn't mean to engage such a large enemy force so I would still call it a "raid".

If anything, the battle of Hoth was more of a "traditional" battle. True, the rebels were the defenders but they did attempt and succeed in a rearguard action and used economy of force to stall the attackers until the C&C could escape.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-01-23 02:39am

I believe what the novelisation means by that passage is this.

Instead of thier standard hit and fades, or guerilla tactics, they are moving to a battlefield. If I can find my copy, I can post the whole thing. What it eludes to, is instead of say pirating or sabotage, this is a full fledged battle. Which is obvious coupled with visuals. Even the description of what they were packing.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-23 04:59am

Mr Bean wrote:No it was not, However this fleet was unique in the fact they had nearly all their top brass and certinaly their best to Commanders Along

I'm pretty sure the radio drama makes it clear that it is the entire Rebel fleet. I heard that somewhere before on this board.

EDIT: there may have been other rally points but really, it says the Rebel fleet amassed at Sullust. I think other systems may be stretching it.

What we do know is that the closing shot of the battle when the Falcon makes its way to the Rebel fleet (engine glow of every ship visible) there seem to be a lot more than in previous scenes. So there could've been rally points at other points in Sullust.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-01-23 05:21am

Robert Treder wrote:
generator_g1 wrote:
Robert Treder wrote:Yeah, all the shots of the fleet before they jump to hyperspace is at the rally point in the Sullust system. Sullust is a very important system economically, and it had been Imperial until just prior to the ROTJ events. As a sign of their loyalty to their new rebel friends, they offered their system to be used as the staging grounds for the Rebel fleet.
Also there doesn't seem to be as many cap ships jumping into hyperspace on the way to the DS.
I don't know, there seemed to be quite a few to me.

This is immediately before the jump from Sullust to Endor (taken from Saxton). The cruiser Home One is present on the left, plus a mile-long destroyer (Mon Cal on the right), a frigate and three corvettes. Plus four transports (laden with explosives for kamakaze runs, according to the canon novelisation).

This image (again, from Saxton) is of low quality, but in the distance just behind Home One you can spot at least one capship of unknown class. Those other three behind the Falcon might just be transports; I'd have to see it in motion to be sure. Once again, this is at the Sullust staging area.

I see no reason to think that almost all, if not the entire Endor fleet was at Sullust. The camera obviously doesn't dwell on each one (and indeed some unfinished models are used, as evidenced by that unidentified, elongated ship), but I'd assume they're all there. No official source indicates that forces jumped from any other location.

The wingless Mon Cal. cruiser beside Home One is the Reef Home.

Sullust joined the Alliance before the events of RotJ. The co-pilot of Lando -Nien Numb -is a sullustan.

I think the main force gathered at Sullust and other ship entered the Battle of Endor after they discovered the Imperial Fleet.

If you watch the movie closely you can see much more ships at the Battle of Endor then it should be. There're is a scene when you can see seven Nebulon-B or Nebulon-B2 frigates in the back. There're much more Mon Cal. cruisers that we've seen in the gathering area.

Beside that I'm pretty sure it wasn't the whole Rebel Fleet.
Several Mon Cal cruiser were left at the shipyards of Mon Calamari and at other vital military facilities.