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I got this idea as I was reading the Sacrifice thread. This forum brought up the idea of scraping the EU and starting over before, and I mentioned that it'd spawn endless debates over the "old" and "new" EU (think original vs. prequel trilogy). I also said, then, that scraping parts of the EU would be difficult and perceived as unfair.

After Sacrifice, I've warmed up to the idea.

I'd still oppose scraping the whole thing, since there are numerous parts of the old EU I love.

However, there's got to be some way to deal with hacks like Traviss poisoning the well, and this is the only way I see it.

So, if I was George Lucas, here's what I'd do:

Step 1: Two-year moratorium on all EU publications. Books, comics, games--everything. The hack writers looking for an easy buck and fame will go elsewhere, and hopefully, writers who are true fans will remain.

Step 2: Detail everything that happens on screen in the six movies, and then scrap all EU materials that contradict the movies. In some cases, an author may be given an opportunity to rewrite his or her work to fit in, but that should be the exception rather than the rule. Although, I'd love to see Traviss's reaction when she is told to rewrite her stuff because Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc.

Step 3: Decide on a policy to implement in case two pieces of existing EU do not contradict the movies, but do contradict each other. The policy can be a)scrap both, b)go with the earlier piece, c)put it to a fan vote, d)ask the authors to work together and rewrite it. Apply the policy consistently and across the board.

If an author is asked to rewrite his or her work and refuses, it should be scrapped. If you didn't give a damn about continuity when you wrote it, if you aren't going to lift a finger to have it fit in with the rest of the universe--why should it be there? Again, this will serve to separate hacks from fans.

Step 4: Once the waters are settled (i.e. The Crystal Star, Dark Empire, and Travissties are out, at the very least ) and rewrites completed and published, get rid of the ridiculous "no kill list". It'll at least bring some suspense into future works.

*Sigh* I so wish I could make George Lucas listen.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote: I'd still oppose scraping the whole thing, since there are numerous parts of the old EU I love.

There's a difference between 'scraping and rebuilding' and 'scraping and throwing all of it away', you know. Especially as what you detail below does rather sound like scraping and rebuilding.

However, there's got to be some way to deal with hacks like Traviss poisoning the well, and this is the only way I see it.
So, if I was George Lucas, here's what I'd do:
Step 1: Two-year moratorium on all EU publications. Books, comics, games--everything.

I don't see why the games need be included, other than to give the developers a breather (which isn't necessarily a bad idea, mind you). As they will inevitably violate canon anyway due to gameplay neccessities, why not treat them the same way we do now, only extend the 'overridden by everything else' to the game fluff, as well?

The hack writers looking for an easy buck and fame will go elsewhere, and hopefully, writers who are true fans will remain.

I wouldn't bet on it. I'm not a professional writer of course but 2 years between publications for a specific franchise isn't necessarily particularly long especially if you have other work going at the same time. Besides, just because a writer is a true fan doesn't mean he isn't a hack.

Step 2: Detail everything that happens on screen in the six movies, and then scrap all EU materials that contradict the movies. In some cases, an author may be given an opportunity to rewrite his or her work to fit in, but that should be the exception rather than the rule.

Actually I think that should be the rule rather the exception. YOU were the one saying you want to keep most of the EU. Can't be done if you throw out most of everything that was written before the stuff contradicting it was ever filmed.

Although, I'd love to see Traviss's reaction when she is told to rewrite her stuff because Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc.

I'd be far more interested in her reaction to being told that yes, there WERE far more than 3 million clones, several orders of magnitude more in fact, and if you can't live with that feel free to work elsewhere. The Fett wank had been going on for long before she ever weaseled her way into EU writing.
Not that I would mind him definitely dying in RotJ, mind you.

Step 3: Decide on a policy to implement in case two pieces of existing EU do not contradict the movies, but do contradict each other. The policy can be a)scrap both, b)go with the earlier piece, c)put it to a fan vote, d)ask the authors to work together and rewrite it. Apply the policy consistently and across the board.

d) The fanvote garbage was what got us the EU Fett wankage in the first place.

If an author is asked to rewrite his or her work and refuses, it should be scrapped.

It should first be judged as to wether or not it may be turned into a worthwhile contribution. If no, purge. If yes, give it to somebody else to rewrite. Hey, Mr Shitty Author, guess what-this is NOT your intellectual property. It's George's.
There's probably legal difficulties to overcome but I think it'd be doable.

If you didn't give a damn about continuity when you wrote it, if you aren't going to lift a finger to have it fit in with the rest of the universe--why should it be there? Again, this will serve to separate hacks from fans.

Again, one can be a fan and STILL be a hack.

Step 4: Once the waters are settled (i.e. The Crystal Star, Dark Empire, and Travissties are out, at the very least ) and rewrites completed and published, get rid of the ridiculous "no kill list". It'll at least bring some suspense into future works.

Not gonna happen. The vast majority of the public associates Star Wars with the characters from the movies, and by and large, people DON'T want their heroes to die. You want to keep the sales up, you keep the movie characters alive. And you ESPECIALLY don't kill them off completely pointlessly.
Which isn't the same as always focusing on them. OR their never to be sufficiently damned offspring.

Batman wrote:There's a difference between 'scraping and rebuilding' and 'scraping and throwing all of it away', you know. Especially as what you detail below does rather sound like scraping and rebuilding.

Doesn't matter what you call it--enforcing continuity, scraping and rebuilding, whatever. What I meant was that I oppose declaring it non-canon and starting over, with new writers free to overwrite any of it.

I don't see why the games need be included, other than to give the developers a breather (which isn't necessarily a bad idea, mind you). As they will inevitably violate canon anyway due to gameplay neccessities, why not treat them the same way we do now, only extend the 'overridden by everything else' to the game fluff, as well?

Game mechanics are non-canon (no, imperial bases do not have instant-healing medpacks lying around). Game events, however, are canon, and are sometimes referred to in other EU works (yes, Jerec and his minions existed, and Kyle Katarn defeated them).

Games are not the big problem with EU, anyway.

I wouldn't bet on it. I'm not a professional writer of course but 2 years between publications for a specific franchise isn't necessarily particularly long especially if you have other work going at the same time. Besides, just because a writer is a true fan doesn't mean he isn't a hack.

I'd say a true fan is someone who cares more about the franchise as a whole than about his or her place in it. But what it'll do is give everyone (not just game developers) a breather, and also, it'd be really diffiult to work on old continuity while new stuff is continuously coming out.

Actually I think that should be the rule rather the exception. YOU were the one saying you want to keep most of the EU. Can't be done if you throw out most of everything that was written before the stuff contradicting it was ever filmed.

I see what you're saying. But some authors didn't deserve a first chance, let alone a second.

I'd be far more interested in her reaction to being told that yes, there WERE far more than 3 million clones, several orders of magnitude more in fact, and if you can't live with that feel free to work elsewhere. The Fett wank had been going on for long before she ever weaseled her way into EU writing.
Not that I would mind him definitely dying in RotJ, mind you.

Yes, but an explicit clone number is never stated on screen, and I don't think we should actually get one. Of course, we can easily see that there are more than three million, simply by counting the ships and knowing the number of clones per ship. However, that's only possible because Traviss used such an absurdly low number. If she said three billion, it'd still be minimalist, but then we couldn't easily bring in on-screen evidence against it, because three billion is a lot more than we see--just not enough.

Boba Fett wanking began long before Traviss. I maintain that bringing him back was one of the greatest sins of the EU.

d) The fanvote garbage was what got us the EU Fett wankage in the first place.

Not to mention Darth Caedus. Conceded.

It should first be judged as to wether or not it may be turned into a worthwhile contribution. If no, purge. If yes, give it to somebody else to rewrite. Hey, Mr Shitty Author, guess what-this is NOT your intellectual property. It's George's.
There's probably legal difficulties to overcome but I think it'd be doable.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. I don't think we should hand over the author's creations' to someone else, no matter what the cause. Certainly not without the original author's agreement--if the author is dead, or can't find the time, but says it's okay, or recommends someone else whom he trusts, certainly, but otherwise... no. Put it this way: I'd rather have the Thrawn Trilogy relegated to fanfiction status than worked over by Karen Traviss.

Again, one can be a fan and STILL be a hack.

I was imagining a hypothetical author who wrote something blatantly contradicting the movies, the rest of the EU, and common sense, and, when given a chance to fix it, digs in her heels and maintains that she's right and everyone else is wrong, refuses to correct her work or give anyone else permission to do so. That's means the author doesn't care about the franchise she's writing for at all--so she shouldn't be. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Not gonna happen. The vast majority of the public associates Star Wars with the characters from the movies, and by and large, people DON'T want their heroes to die. You want to keep the sales up, you keep the movie characters alive. And you ESPECIALLY don't kill them off completely pointlessly.
Which isn't the same as always focusing on them. OR their never to be sufficiently damned offspring.

None of this is going to happen. But I've never been very attached to any of the movie characters that much (the movies were always more about the plot for me). And you'll get no argument from me about not focusing on the movie characters so much. There hasn't been a single bad piece of EU set in the distant (over 1000 years) past from the trilogy, and a few of them were brilliant.

Oh, and "the vast majority of the public" doesn't even know about the EU. That's not the market it's going for.

P.S. How do you define "hack"?

You make it sound like Star Wars is held hostage by authors running rampage. Authors that write the books are specificly sought out and chosen by LFL. To choose an author to write a story, edit and revise said work, advertise and publish it, then come back years, even decades later and say it needs to be re-written to meet a completely arbitrary standard is insulting at best. No one in his right mind would accept that.

Frankly, if this idea were ever implemented in, at the very least, the near future, it would be an unmitigated disaster for SW canon and continuity. This isn't Star Trek. We see enough continuity errors and mistakes without dumping a whole new"alternate reality" into the fray.

I don't feel like arguing the entirety of this post, but, please-- don't mix up the licenses with one another. Del Rey may be doing a spectacularly lousy job at the moment, but Dark Horse's comic contributions have been almost uniformly excellent since their relaunch.

TC Pilot wrote:You make it sound like Star Wars is held hostage by authors running rampage. Authors that write the books are specificly sought out and chosen by LFL. To choose an author to write a story, edit and revise said work, advertise and publish it, then come back years, even decades later and say it needs to be re-written to meet a completely arbitrary standard is insulting at best.

"It can't contradict the movies" is not an arbitrary standard. If it does that, it shouldn't have been written in the first place. If the continuity was firmly enforced from the start, we wouldn't be talking about this.

No one in his right mind would accept that.

Frankly, if this idea were ever implemented in, at the very least, the near future, it would be an unmitigated disaster for SW canon and continuity. This isn't Star Trek. We see enough continuity errors and mistakes without dumping a whole new"alternate reality" into the fray.

We see them because the people responsible for enforcing continuity don't give a fuck. People buy any shit with SW on the cover, so why bother?

Do you think there were only 3 million clones? Do you think Mandalorians are TEH AWESOME? Do you think Darth Caedus is a cool name? Do you think centaurs belong in the SW universe?

I happen to think the answer to each of the above is NO FUCKING WAY. But those things were allowed into the EU, along with a lot of other crap. LFL dug their own hole with carelessness, and there are no longer any good choices. An overhaul seems the best solution to me, and that means either starting over from scratch or doing some rewriting.

000 wrote:I don't feel like arguing the entirety of this post, but, please-- don't mix up the licenses with one another. Del Rey may be doing a spectacularly lousy job at the moment, but Dark Horse's comic contributions have been almost uniformly excellent since their relaunch.

Yeah, but look at the setting of these comics. They're all set during the original trilogy, during the prequel trilogy, distant past, or distant future. The first two means the writers don't have much of an opportunity to run afoul of canon, and the second forces real creativity, at least with the characters. Comics set in the immediate pre-TPM and immediate post-ROTJ eras are not better then the rest of the EU from these eras.

If the item doesn't contradict the movies, as most of the recent comics don't, it is in no danger.

000 wrote:I don't feel like arguing the entirety of this post, but, please-- don't mix up the licenses with one another. Del Rey may be doing a spectacularly lousy job at the moment, but Dark Horse's comic contributions have been almost uniformly excellent since their relaunch.

You are such a DH shill.

If you like parts of the EU, but don't like contradiction, than ignore the contradictory parts. It's not necessarily BAD that novels contain erroneous information: in-universe rationalisations can often be found. If Publius can rationalise so many disparate sources, than you can too. Outside vs debates, I don't really see how it's relevant - someone says x, someone else says y. People are allowed to disagree, or be wrong, etc: EU writers most of all!

Stark wrote:If you like parts of the EU, but don't like contradiction, than ignore the contradictory parts. It's not necessarily BAD that novels contain erroneous information: in-universe rationalisations can often be found. If Publius can rationalise so many disparate sources, than you can too. Outside vs debates, I don't really see how it's relevant - someone says x, someone else says y. People are allowed to disagree, or be wrong, etc: EU writers most of all!

Of course they can be found, but why should we be forced to look for them in the first place? There can be basically two approaches to an endeavour like the EU:

The Star Trek approach: Star Trek novels are non-canon, and are free to contradict each other (but not canon material). This means that blatant stupidity in one work cannot affect anything else unless the other authors choose to use it.

The (supposed) Star Wars approach: the novels are canon, and continuity, both with the original canon and each other is strictly enforced.

In practice, continuity enforcement is rather... lax. And it's that laxness, combined with the fact that the novels are canon that led to "3 million clones" crap. There's plenty of stupidity in Star Trek novels, but that doesn't have the same impact, since they are not canon.

Finally, there's also an issue of simply bad novels.

I want the EU to deliver what the movies do: a gripping story that I can enjoy over and over. Like the Thrawn Trilogy. Like the Hand of Thrawn duology. Like the Medstar duology. Like Starfighters of Adumar. Like Star By Star. Like Traitor. Like Jedi Academy. Like KOTOR.

I want the EU to produce more of that. But what was the last one of these? Medstar? Came out in 2004, I think? Since then.... what? If something since then really gripped you and made you want to read it again.... you're luckier than I am.

But because the writers are continuity bound by the stupid stuff that came out since then, they produce a mixture of things that are mediocre at best, and more stupidity. Yes, the non-Traviss LOTF stuff is decent, but it doesn't compare even to the same authors' earlier SW work.

Sadly, I don't see it getting better anytime soon. Not without a kind of overhaul I suggest.

"It can't contradict the movies" is not an arbitrary standard. If it does that, it shouldn't have been written in the first place. If the continuity was firmly enforced from the start, we wouldn't be talking about this.

That's a standard that's been around since HttE was released over 15 years ago. And we all know that still leaves massive amounts of personal interpretation. Your way of looking at the movie may be vastly different than the way someone else looks at the movies.

Do you think there were only 3 million clones? Do you think Mandalorians are TEH AWESOME? Do you think Darth Caedus is a cool name? Do you think centaurs belong in the SW universe?

They picked CAEDUS!? She may be bad at writing everything SW, but by no means should LFL demand she change what she writes anymore than any other author you think got the correct interpretation of the movie right. The same policy to rewrite or expunge Traviss can be used with equal validity to expunge Saxton or how you look at the Clone Wars. Do you really want that?

A redo of the Prequels on the other hand... that I could get behind.

TC Pilot wrote:A redo of the Prequels on the other hand... that I could get behind.

I'd take that a step further and redo everything produced after 1980.

TC Pilot wrote:That's a standard that's been around since HttE was released over 15 years ago. And we all know that still leaves massive amounts of personal interpretation. Your way of looking at the movie may be vastly different than the way someone else looks at the movies.

They picked CAEDUS!? She may be bad at writing everything SW, but by no means should LFL demand she change what she writes anymore than any other author you think got the correct interpretation of the movie right. The same policy to rewrite or expunge Traviss can be used with equal validity to expunge Saxton or how you look at the Clone Wars. Do you really want that?

(bolding mine)

Bingo. The fact that EU is canon means that one author can say what the correct interpretation is. "Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc" and "Palpatine died in the Death Star reactor shaft" are currently incorrect interpretations. Can't you see how fucked up that is?

A redo of the Prequels on the other hand... that I could get behind.

So you think Traviss doesn't need to be told what Star Wars is about, but George Lucas does.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:I want the EU to produce more of that. But what was the last one of these? Medstar? Came out in 2004, I think? Since then.... what? If something since then really gripped you and made you want to read it again.... you're luckier than I am.

cough Republic KotOR Legacy Dark Times cough

Seriously, if you stick to just the books you're missing out.

(@ Stark-- hey, I hated the first Rebellion arc... )

Bingo. The fact that EU is canon means that one author can say what the correct interpretation is. "Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc" and "Palpatine died in the Death Star reactor shaft" are currently incorrect interpretations. Can't you see how fucked up that is?

Invoking your personal opinion only further shows how utterly awful this proposed project could and would be. There's nothing wrong with a man with a freakin' jetpack, body armor, a flame thrower, and a bazooka from escaping an animal that takes years to digest its food. There's nothing wrong with the most powerful Force user to ever exist being able to preserve himself through the Force to come back in a clone body.

So you think Traviss doesn't need to be told what Star Wars is about, but George Lucas does.

Don't be foolish. You're the one coming up with a thread about what Lucas should or should not do.

000 wrote:cough Republic KotOR Legacy Dark Times cough

Seriously, if you stick to just the books you're missing out.

(@ Stark-- hey, I hated the first Rebellion arc... )

I know, these are better, in part because they either explore distant eras or stick to the movies. But how much time can you really spend reading a comic?

TC Pilot wrote:Invoking your personal opinion only further shows how utterly awful this proposed project could and would be. There's nothing wrong with a man with a freakin' jetpack, body armor, a flame thrower, and a bazooka from escaping an animal that takes years to digest its food.

Do you think I don't know that the canon explanation is plausible? That doesn't mean it isn't stupid. That it was done to placate Fett fanboys...

There's nothing wrong with the most powerful Force user to ever exist being able to preserve himself through the Force to come back in a clone body.

Other than it undermining the theme of the entire saga... no, nothing wrong.

Don't be foolish. You're the one coming up with a thread about what Lucas should or should not do.

I'm saying that something should be done about people who are turning Lucas' creation into something unrecongnizable.

OK, let's recap. Here's what you said about Traviss:

by no means should LFL demand she change what she writes anymore than any other author you think got the correct interpretation of the movie right.

Shortly followed by:

A redo of the Prequels on the other hand... that I could get behind.

You think George Lucas made the prequels wrongly, but that Traviss shouldn't be smacked by LFL for her bullshit because of some abstract threat this poses against all authors.

Remember, Traviss's interpretation of the Clone Wars is that it was a series of tiny brush conflicts made to look like a galactic war by a joint conspiracy between the Jedi and Palpatine. Do you think it's okay for that to become the correct interpretation too?

I really don't understand what you want. The writings of Publius are fantastic, because they turn contradictory, stupid or inane events into part of a greater, consistent tapestry. If you're going to say 'why rationalise rar', then why read the fucking EU at all? Why not just make up your own nonsense rules of canon? I don't get it. I enjoy Publius' stuff, even being a absolutely unrepentant movie purist, because I've seen some of the laughable schoolboy bullshit he manages to represent in a consistent, respectable way - thus, such rationalisation makes the EU *better*.

Stark wrote:I really don't understand what you want. The writings of Publius are fantastic, because they turn contradictory, stupid or inane events into part of a greater, consistent tapestry. If you're going to say 'why rationalise rar', then why read the fucking EU at all? Why not just make up your own nonsense rules of canon? I don't get it. I enjoy Publius' stuff, even being a absolutely unrepentant movie purist, because I've seen some of the laughable schoolboy bullshit he manages to represent in a consistent, respectable way - thus, such rationalisation makes the EU *better*.

I want stories I can enjoy on repeated readings that make sense in the context of the Star Wars universe. I think stupidity has accumulated to the point that it makes it difficult to write such stories. I suggested a way that the stupidity could be dealt with.

The deep, inherent, unsolvable problem in your proposal, Mr. Fel, is that when it comes to Palpatine and Fett surviving RotJ...that's not going anywhere.

Because George Lucas really liked Dark Empire.

I'd take that a step further and redo everything produced after 1980.

This actually has great potential as an Infinities project, IMO. Maybe get a huge mob of fans to suggest the "alternate ESB sequel" idea to Dark Horse.

Anguirus wrote:

I'd take that a step further and redo everything produced after 1980.

This actually has great potential as an Infinities project, IMO. Maybe get a huge mob of fans to suggest the "alternate ESB sequel" idea to Dark Horse.

I've been mentally outlining such a thing for years.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote: I want stories I can enjoy on repeated readings that make sense in the context of the Star Wars universe. I think stupidity has accumulated to the point that it makes it difficult to write such stories. I suggested a way that the stupidity could be dealt with.

You have already admitted that there are plenty of those stories out there now; they're just not limited to novels. And considering the recent trend in the EU towards relatively untapped and "untainted" areas of the chronology (with the exception of the Legacy of the Force), I hope and expect that there will be more worthwhile pieces of fiction in the future. Honestly, I don't see the point of trying to gut and then subjectively reconstruct the canon simply because you don't like the direction in which the post-ROTJ EU went, even if there are certain authors and works that I wouldn't mind seeing expelled.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:

Batman wrote:There's a difference between 'scraping and rebuilding' and 'scraping and throwing all of it away', you know. Especially as what you detail below does rather sound like scraping and rebuilding.

Doesn't matter what you call it--enforcing continuity, scraping and rebuilding, whatever. What I meant was that I oppose declaring it non-canon and starting over, with new writers free to overwrite any of it.

Duly noted.

I don't see why the games need be included, other than to give the developers a breather (which isn't necessarily a bad idea, mind you). As they will inevitably violate canon anyway due to gameplay neccessities, why not treat them the same way we do now, only extend the 'overridden by everything else' to the game fluff, as well?

Game mechanics are non-canon (no, imperial bases do not have instant-healing medpacks lying around). Game events, however, are canon, and are sometimes referred to in other EU works (yes, Jerec and his minions existed, and Kyle Katarn defeated them).

Your point being?

Games are not the big problem with EU, anyway.

Then why bother including them to begin with? And if we DO bother, why NOT declare them apocryphal in their entirety given they're inherently troublesome by their very nature, and MAYBE later make the worthwhile parts canon either by fiat or by including them in works that are?

I wouldn't bet on it. I'm not a professional writer of course but 2 years between publications for a specific franchise isn't necessarily particularly long especially if you have other work going at the same time. Besides, just because a writer is a true fan doesn't mean he isn't a hack.

I'd say a true fan is someone who cares more about the franchise as a whole than about his or her place in it.
But what it'll do is give everyone (not just game developers) a breather, and also, it'd be really difficult to work on old continuity while new stuff is continuously coming out.

While that much is certainly true, I was mainly referring to the 2 year hiatus deterring non-dedicated writers from sticking with Wars. Some of the EU writers have gone considerably longer than that between bouts (at least where the novels are concerned).

Actually I think that should be the rule rather the exception. YOU were the one saying you want to keep most of the EU. Can't be done if you throw out most of everything that was written before the stuff contradicting it was ever filmed.

I see what you're saying. But some authors didn't deserve a first chance, let alone a second.

No argument there.

I'd be far more interested in her reaction to being told that yes, there WERE far more than 3 million clones, several orders of magnitude more in fact, and if you can't live with that feel free to work elsewhere. The Fett wank had been going on for long before she ever weaseled her way into EU writing.
Not that I would mind him definitely dying in RotJ, mind you.

Yes, but an explicit clone number is never stated on screen, and I don't think we should actually get one.

Depending on what you consider 'explicit' I don't see why not. It should be a sufficiently large one of course but I can't see anything wrong with the movies (or the movie novelisations probably, it's easier to throw in such number there as you don't have to work it into somebody's dialogue) explicitely stating there were quadrillions of clones.

Of course, we can easily see that there are more than three million, simply by counting the ships and knowing the number of clones per ship.

DO we know the number of clones per ship (honest question-where the PT is concerned, all I know is the PT movies themselves and what I managed to gather here)? Because from what I gather we know crew numbers. Nowhere is it stated that those crews are exclusively clones.

However, that's only possible because Traviss used such an absurdly low number. If she said three billion, it'd still be minimalist, but then we couldn't easily bring in on-screen evidence against it, because three billion is a lot more than we see--just not enough.

So as you agree that's not enough, what exactly is wrong with the movies explicitly saying there were quadrillions of clones?

Boba Fett wanking began long before Traviss. I maintain that bringing him back was one of the greatest sins of the EU.

Err-I said so myself further up.

d) The fanvote garbage was what got us the EU Fett wankage in the first place.

Not to mention Darth Caedus. Conceded.

It should first be judged as to wether or not it may be turned into a worthwhile contribution. If no, purge. If yes, give it to somebody else to rewrite. Hey, Mr Shitty Author, guess what-this is NOT your intellectual property. It's George's.
There's probably legal difficulties to overcome but I think it'd be doable.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. I don't think we should hand over the author's creations' to someone else, no matter what the cause. Certainly not without the original author's agreement--if the author is dead, or can't find the time, but says it's okay, or recommends someone else whom he trusts, certainly, but otherwise... no.

That'd be the legal difficulties I mentioned. Naturally authors would have to have agreed beforehand for this to be possible.

Put it this way: I'd rather have the Thrawn Trilogy relegated to fanfiction status than worked over by Karen Traviss.

I rather assumed one of the points of this project was to make sure such a thing WOULDN'T happen. If you want to get rid of the hacks, you have the GOOD authors rewrite THEIR work, not the other way round.

Not gonna happen. The vast majority of the public associates Star Wars with the characters from the movies, and by and large, people DON'T want their heroes to die. You want to keep the sales up, you keep the movie characters alive. And you ESPECIALLY don't kill them off completely pointlessly.
Which isn't the same as always focusing on them. OR their never to be sufficiently damned offspring.

None of this is going to happen. But I've never been very attached to any of the movie characters that much (the movies were always more about the plot for me). And you'll get no argument from me about not focusing on the movie characters so much. There hasn't been a single bad piece of EU set in the distant (over 1000 years) past from the trilogy, and a few of them were brilliant.

I'll take your word for it. The travesty that was NJO turned me off the Wars literary EU for the time being.

Oh, and "the vast majority of the public" doesn't even know about the EU. That's not the market it's going for.

Yes, right, my bad. When talking about redoing the Star Wars EU by 'vast majority of the public' I was NATURALLY referring to the part that didn't know it exists. As opposed to the part that does but STILL mostly cares mainly about the movie characters, what with those being the ones that got them into Star Wars in the first place.

P.S. How do you define "hack"?

Somebody who couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag but nevertheless manages to become popular due to being associated with a popular franchise, media hype, or some other means despite his actual writing being rather substandard, to put it mildly.
If there's an actual definition of hack in this context somewhere, I'd appreciate it if you could point me that way. I absolutely DO see where not giving a flying fuck about the rules and background of the universe you're writing in would make someone a hack as per yours.

Do you think I don't know that the canon explanation is plausible? That doesn't mean it isn't stupid. That it was done to placate Fett fanboys...

That's nice.

Other than it undermining the theme of the entire saga... no, nothing wrong.

I'm saying that something should be done about people who are turning Lucas' creation into something unrecongnizable.

Lucas doesn't seem to care.

You think George Lucas made the prequels wrongly, but that Traviss shouldn't be smacked by LFL for her bullshit because of some abstract threat this poses against all authors.

Correct. TPM and AOTC blew, and your idea sucks. Get it yet?

Remember, Traviss's interpretation of the Clone Wars is that it was a series of tiny brush conflicts made to look like a galactic war by a joint conspiracy between the Jedi and Palpatine. Do you think it's okay for that to become the correct interpretation too?

It very well could become the correct interpretation if your idea ever comes into effect. Did that ever occur to you?

TC Pilot wrote:

Do you think I don't know that the canon explanation is plausible? That doesn't mean it isn't stupid. That it was done to placate Fett fanboys...

That's nice.

It's also correct.

Other than it undermining the theme of the entire saga... no, nothing wrong.

You might want to elaborate on that because as it stands, Palpy coming back for DE DOES undermine the theme of the movie saga...

I'm saying that something should be done about people who are turning Lucas' creation into something unrecongnizable.

Lucas doesn't seem to care.

Neither would I if it made me that kind of money. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

You think George Lucas made the prequels wrongly, but that Traviss shouldn't be smacked by LFL for her bullshit because of some abstract threat this poses against all authors.

Correct. TPM and AOTC blew, and your idea sucks. Get it yet?

Can't say I do, no. I fail to see what TPM and AOTC stinking has to do with Traviss complete and utter failure to grab the scale of the Wars universe.

Noble Ire wrote:You have already admitted that there are plenty of those stories out there now; they're just not limited to novels. And considering the recent trend in the EU towards relatively untapped and "untainted" areas of the chronology (with the exception of the Legacy of the Force), I hope and expect that there will be more worthwhile pieces of fiction in the future. Honestly, I don't see the point of trying to gut and then subjectively reconstruct the canon simply because you don't like the direction in which the post-ROTJ EU went, even if there are certain authors and works that I wouldn't mind seeing expelled.

All recent EU that can be considered great was in comics. And after the disappointment of Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, I'm not sure it's all about the setting, either. And I just prefer novels to comics.

Let's see what's coming up in the next three years or so (besides continuation of LOTF):

Republic Commando: True Colors by Karen Traviss. More Mando-wanking.

Death Star by Steve Perry and Michael Reaves. Unfortunately, the authors are not starting with a blank slate here. KJA has put so much idiocy into that backstory that I don't see how it can be redeemed.

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor by Matthew Stover. This will probably be good, as Stover usually is.

The Force Unleashed. The actual entry says the author will be Sean Williams, but the headline says Traviss. Even if it's Williams, I'm skeptical about a game tie-in being good. I've read Ruins of Dantooine, and I wish I hadn't.

Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight by Michael Reaves. The first of a trilogy taking place between the PT and the OT. I'll have to hold my opinion on this one.

Republic Commando #4. Even more Mando-wanking.

Untitled Darth Plagueis Hardcover by James Luceno. Luceno's work is of widely varying quality. I guess it's unlikely to suck, but as far as being good or great...

Plus four more LOTF novels. I'd hold off my optimism.

Batman wrote:Your point being?

The storytelling parts of the game should be treated like other EU stories.

So as you agree that's not enough, what exactly is wrong with the movies explicitly saying there were quadrillions of clones?

How many quadrillions? If it doesn't say that, it's not explicit.

I rather assumed one of the points of this project was to make sure such a thing WOULDN'T happen. If you want to get rid of the hacks, you have the GOOD authors rewrite THEIR work, not the other way round.

Well, yeah, but suppose that it's implemented, and Zahn refuses to rewrite his stuff. Frankly, reworking someone else's story can be harder than writing your own. So unless the author explicitly states that he trusts another specific author to change his story, it shouldn't be reworked at all.

Somebody who couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag but nevertheless manages to become popular due to being associated with a popular franchise, media hype, or some other means despite his actual writing being rather substandard, to put it mildly.
If there's an actual definition of hack in this context somewhere, I'd appreciate it if you could point me that way. I absolutely DO see where not giving a flying fuck about the rules and background of the universe you're writing in would make someone a hack as per yours.

Thanks for clearing that up. The two aren't necessarily the same, but they often go together, and here's why: research is part of writing. Hack authors often don't bother to do research, so they put nonsense they don't know is nonsense into their work. It's always spotted, of course. This doesn't change if you're writing in a fictional universe, except there, research is mostly studying the canon.

TC Pilot wrote:Lucas doesn't seem to care.

Hence, the EU authors are able to get away with crap. Do you think it's a good thing?

Correct. TPM and AOTC blew, and your idea sucks. Get it yet?

Why does it suck? Because authors' work can be de-canonized at any time? It already can be. Only right now, LFL has to make another movie to do it. I'm saying they shouldn't have to do that.

I'm quite optimistic about the upcoming TV show. Maybe it'll blow some of the crap EU away.

It very well could become the correct interpretation if your idea ever comes into effect. Did that ever occur to you?

In my scenario, in order for that to happen, LFL has to actually cater to Traviss's whims. Right now, all they have to do is be lazy. Which is more likely?

Batman:

It's also correct.

It's also irrelevant.

Even the movies themselves have been changed because of fan outcries.

You might want to elaborate on that because as it stands, Palpy coming back for DE DOES undermine the theme of the movie saga...

Actually, no. It undermines your interpretation of the view of the movie saga. See why this plan could blow so much on top of everything else yet?

I'm assuming you're refering to the prophecy of the Chosen One when you mention Star Wars' theme. Since the Prophecy has nothing to do with Palpatine himself, only the imbalance he caused in the Force, Anakin fufilled his destiny in ROTJ by hurling Palpatine down the reactor shaft, thus balancing the Force, breaking Palpatine's power, shattering the Empire, and giving his children the chance to defeat the reborn Emperor years later.

On a related note, Lucas liked DE so much he once gave it out as a Christmas present to his employees, saying it was the closest thing to what he had in mind for the last 3 episodes.

Neither would I if it made me that kind of money. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

Doesn't mean it is true to begin with.

Can't say I do, no. I fail to see what TPM and AOTC stinking has to do with Traviss complete and utter failure to grab the scale of the Wars universe.

Obviously you would fail at that since I never said there was a connection.

General_Soontir_Fel:

Hence, the EU authors are able to get away with crap. Do you think it's a good thing?

*shrug* Just hire better editors then.

Why does it suck?

Because you're basing your entire project on the assumption the movies will be interpreted the way you want them to be. Aside from your subjective opinion, there is virtually nothing on the scope you're talking about inside the EU that contradicts the movies.

Further, such a project would outright devastate any semblance of order there is to SW's continuity and canon.

Untitled Darth Plagueis Hardcover by James Luceno. Luceno's work is of widely varying quality. I guess it's unlikely to suck, but as far as being good or great...

That's been cancelled.

In my scenario, in order for that to happen, LFL has to actually cater to Traviss's whims. Right now, all they have to do is be lazy. Which is more likely?

*shrug* Talk to some of the people on TFN's OT board. They think the entire Imperial military was at Endor.

The risks just aren't worth whatever benefits there might actually be in such a project.

TC Pilot wrote:General_Soontir_Fel

*shrug* Just hire better editors then.

And what do you do with the crap that's already canon and can't be contradicted in later work?

Because you're basing your entire project on the assumption the movies will be interpreted the way you want them to be. Aside from your subjective opinion, there is virtually nothing on the scope you're talking about inside the EU that contradicts the movies.

The current canon interpretations of Boba Fett's and Palpatine's demises in ROTJ are loopholes. They exist because authors needed a way to resurrect these characters. You can't get those interpretations just from what you see on screen.

Further, such a project would outright devastate any semblance of order there is to SW's continuity and canon.

No, it'd fix the continuity errors that are already there and not allow in new ones.

That's been cancelled.

Duly noted.

*shrug* Talk to some of the people on TFN's OT board. They think the entire Imperial military was at Endor.

That makes them idiots who haven't watched the movies properly.

Mon Mothma in ROTJ wrote:"...with the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy..."

The risks just aren't worth whatever benefits there might actually be in such a project.

Your opinion, unsupported.