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[TECH] Turbolasers
Posted: 2002-07-03 12:45pm
by His Divine Shadow
Repost from ASVS:
Short theory here about blasters, laser cannons, turbolasers and the ICS and other sources.
Ok, blasters, what are they? Well quotes are a comin':
========================
Pg. 39: Power-charge magazines supply the gun with energy to hyper-ionize
the gas into charged plasma in an igniter chamber. The resulting bolt is
accelerated out of the gun electromagnetically.
========================
-Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary
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Pg. 7: Common blaster weapons use high-energy gas for ammunition, activated
by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a
magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating componets as a coherent
energy bolt.
========================
-Star Wars The Visual Dictionary
Both quoes are very clear, they are pure plasma weapons.
But, laser cannons and Turbolasers, are C propagating weapons, yet rely on the same technology? How?
Allow me to explain.
Look at the description of a laser cannons and turbolasers:
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Pg. 80: The cannon's laser actuator combines high-energy laster gas with a
large power charge. (The actuator's prismatic crystal produces the
high-energy beam of charged particles coupled with light.)
========================
-The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology
They also use blaster gas(Tibanna) but they don't eject it with electro magnets like a blaster, but they channel it through some acutator wich creates an energy beam of particles and light.
====================
Pg. 88: Turbolasers are two-stage supercharged laser cannons. The small
primary laser produces an energy beam that enters the turbolaser's main
actuator, where it interacts with a stream of energized blaster gas to
produce an intense blast.
====================
-The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology
Here it says they are in part a laser cannon, and the laser energizes the gas, well so far, that pretty much sounds like a Plasma weapon in my ears, but this is not all of it, firstly it's still according to ICS a lightspeed weapon, wich also makes it logical to apply the acutator/transformation theory to turbolasers too, plus the amount of evidence wich indicates it's a beam weapon.
Isard's Revenge:
====================
Pg. 7: Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty
Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a
third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and
poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan.
====================
Agents of Chaos:
====================
Pg. 182: The Yuuzhan Vong vessel poured its most lethal fire into the larger
ship, and the cruiser replied with volley after volley of directed light."
====================
Shadows of the Empire:
====================
Pg. 326: A hard green beam of light flashed between the two ships. The
sighting ray of a big ship's cannon--you couldn't see the laser itself in
vacuum, of course, but it followed the ionized marker you *could* see
precisely.
====================
Well thats enough quoting.
Anyhow this is how I think it is.
Blasters(hand and ship versions) are true plasma weapons. Laser cannons and turbolasers transform the plasma into a laser/particle beam instead.
Why?
Well first off, it allows TL's to gather several seconds worth of laser fire into a single blast, given the ICS explanation on shields, that makes sense, wattage is important.
And the second reason is simply that a C propagating beam gives longer range, better accuracy, less range dissipation and probably better focus of firepower than a plasma bolt.
Posted: 2002-07-03 06:19pm
by Grand Admiral Thrawn
I think it may have something to do with magnetic shields. Shields have a weak one that'll mess up blasters. Therefore, the laser part punchs through that, then the plasma hits.
Posted: 2002-07-03 06:23pm
by His Divine Shadow
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:I think it may have something to do with magnetic shields. Shields have a weak one that'll mess up blasters. Therefore, the laser part punchs through that, then the plasma hits.
That *could* be a deciding factor too, if they have them that is, I do not know of any evidence for that, even though it would explain why blaster bolts ricochet and TL's do no such things.
Would fit with my theory.
Though sometimes the visible bolt has no effect whatsoever on the shields, look:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... /clip1.avi
No effects whatsoever, except one flash in the end, maybe bleed through or the shield reflecting what it cannot absorb, or some other function, maybe it flexed? SW shields can do that under strain IIRC, in order to make high-power weapons less effective.
There is nothing that says shields should have visible effects, this though hints at near 100% absorption of the fire.
But no impact from the bolts, my guess is that they had time to dissipate before reaching close enough.
As we can see here, bolts dissapear after a while if there is no beam there to "keep it alive":
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... firing.avi
Turbo laser
Posted: 2002-07-03 08:58pm
by LancerOmega
It seem that a Turbo laser is a dual weapon, The laser excites the plasma, and the excited plamsa releases a pulse of electromagnetic energy ( like a Gamma or x ray laser), Since we still have a cloud of super hot plasma it only make sense to fire it also ( you need to get rid of it any way)...
This combine effect would target both the ray and particle shields ( increasing the drain on ships shields) and give you more bang for the buck... And also lessen the waste heat that the turbo laser must get rid of..
Posted: 2002-07-03 09:30pm
by Rob Wilson
Basically I think it's a mix. You have the invisible portion containing a high Em pulse that takes down the Ray shields or hurts any unshielded/small craft that get in the way and then the energetic plasma hits and does the serious physical damage. Best of both world, plus you are doing some damage with your Invisible bit if they lose shielding at any point so no waste there either.
Posted: 2002-07-04 12:23am
by Shadow
========================
Pg. 7: Common blaster weapons use high-energy gas for ammunition, activated
by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a
magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating componets as a coherent
energy bolt.
========================
-Star Wars The Visual Dictionary
It shows a picture of a DS TL by this body of text. This implies that turbolasers and blasters operate the same way, and they both use plasma to damage targets.
Posted: 2002-07-04 04:15am
by David
According to Curtis Saxon the visible is nothing and the invisible bolt does the damage.
Posted: 2002-07-04 06:43am
by His Divine Shadow
Shadow wrote:
========================
Pg. 7: Common blaster weapons use high-energy gas for ammunition, activated
by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a
magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating componets as a coherent
energy bolt.
========================
-Star Wars The Visual Dictionary
It shows a picture of a DS TL by this body of text. This implies that turbolasers and blasters operate the same way, and they both use plasma to damage targets.
But other sources are more clear in how lasercannons and TL's differ from blasters, they don't electromagnetically eject it, but run it through some process in wich most of it's turned into a particle/laser beam and reading from the EU, thats the part wich does most damage, the visible part is just a side effect I think, wich can potentially be dangerous, if it doesn't dissolve at first.
Posted: 2002-07-04 07:32am
by Cpt_Frank
I'd go with the Grand Admiral's explanation on this issue.
Btw, what are Starfighter weapons then.
Real scaled-down Turbolasers, or big blaster canons?
Posted: 2002-07-04 08:16am
by Grand Admiral Thrawn
Cpt_Frank wrote:I'd go with the Grand Admiral's explanation on this issue.
Btw, what are Starfighter weapons then.
Real scaled-down Turbolasers, or big blaster canons?
Depends on the ship. X-Wings have lasers while Vader's Tie Advanced X1 has heavy blasters. The Lamba Shuttle actually has both.
Posted: 2002-07-04 08:20am
by Grand Admiral Thrawn
Hmm...perhaps since the laser part wasn't needed since they were firing at close up weak ships.
Posted: 2002-07-04 09:04am
by His Divine Shadow
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Hmm...perhaps since the laser part wasn't needed since they were firing at close up weak ships.
I'd say they were just firing shot pulses at the X-wings, the bolts dissipated a short while after the beam stopped.
Posted: 2002-07-04 01:47pm
by David
I'd agree with that if I ever saw the bolts dissipate.
Posted: 2002-07-04 01:49pm
by His Divine Shadow
David wrote:I'd agree with that if I ever saw the bolts dissipate.
Wich they do in the clip I showed:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... firing.avi
And this is also a strong possibility:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... /clip1.avi
And the ICS explanation really leaves no other option, the visible bolt is a direct result of the beam itself.
Posted: 2002-07-04 01:51pm
by His Divine Shadow
Oh and:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/media/slow.avi
If you look cloesly, you'll see the damage that occurs is nowhere near the bolt, wich does no visible damage whatsoever.
Posted: 2002-07-04 01:58pm
by David
Okay thanks.
Posted: 2002-07-05 04:00am
by Typhonis 1
The reason you have the visible beam is so that the gunners can better visually target the weapon when it is fired even in a ground combat mode it is usefull to see where the shot is going. down side is the old Murphy military rule "tracers work BOTH ways",though the feddies have yet to figure that out about there phaser 2s and 3s
Posted: 2002-07-05 04:32am
by Cpt_Frank
I dunno, in many scenes it looks like the visible bolt does the damage.
Of course there's the infamous Asteroid scene, but I still think while there is an invisible portion, the major damage is done by the visible part.
Posted: 2002-07-05 08:30am
by His Divine Shadow
Cpt_Frank wrote:I dunno, in many scenes it looks like the visible bolt does the damage.
Just an illusion, the invisible energy beam need not have any effects if it's absorbed by the shields, shields seem to absorb sometimes and deflect other times, I believe it is due to an AI that decides wich course of action will put the least amount of strain on the generator and provide the most amount of protection(wich it probably compares to damage reports and such from the ship).
Total speculation, I know, but I think it makes sense.
Of course there's the infamous Asteroid scene, but I still think while there is an invisible portion, the major damage is done by the visible part.
Thats one of many.
I have noticed many abnormalities wich fits with the beam mode.
Anyhow this is what they say about the visible bolt:
Pg. 326: A hard green beam of light flashed between the two ships. The sighting ray of a big ship's cannon--you couldn't see the laser itself in vacuum, of course, but it followed the ionized marker you *could* see precisely.
(ref: Shadows of the Empire)
Posted: 2002-07-05 08:36am
by Grand Admiral Thrawn
I still think it's a duel weapon. Why would the shields only flare up when the glow hits?
Posted: 2002-07-05 09:08am
by His Divine Shadow
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:I still think it's a duel weapon. Why would the shields only flare up when the glow hits?
It doesn't all the time, it's just that the glow is a bunch of charged particles, i.e. plasma, it's easier to deflect than a laser beam wich is absorbed instead(most of the time anyway).
Even so we see bolts impacting without effects, we see shield flares where there is no bolt, I even saw a bolt miss a ship and when the fighter went into the previous path of the bolt it exploded.
If you check out that clip I showed in the a-wing thread you'll see the green bolt from the ISD does no damage yet the same time it impacts, there is a shield flash alot further back.
Posted: 2002-07-05 07:34pm
by David
Pg. 326: A hard green beam of light flashed between the two ships. The sighting ray of a big ship's cannon--you couldn't see the laser itself in vacuum, of course, but it followed the ionized marker you *could* see precisely.
(ref: Shadows of the Empire)
I think that information, plus the information in Curtis Saxton books settles the matter. The part that does the damage is invisible.
Posted: 2002-07-06 01:50am
by CmdrWilkens
David wrote:According to Curtis Saxon the visible is nothing and the invisible bolt does the damage.
If you are refering to what is written in the ICS then you'd be inferring without enough evidence. His exact word is that TLs consist of a lightspeed beam and a tracer which depletes the energy content of the lightspeed beam thus limiting range. This means that there must be energy contained within the visible portion of the bolt. In fact a great deal for that matter as most often damage effects don't occur until the tracer hits which would be long after the lightspeed beams impacts.
Posted: 2002-07-06 10:23am
by Cpt_Frank
Btw, has anyone ever heard the ISD Devastator's shields?
At the beginning of ANH, right in the second scene, you hear a strange noise everytime the visible portion of a bolt strikes Deva's shields.
Turbolaser and heavy laser flak blasts
Posted: 2002-07-06 05:44pm
by Patrick Ogaard
One of the things that seems to make turbolasers, and laser cannons to a certain extent, different from blasters is the ability of the heavier weapons to fire the mysterious flak blasts. Maybe those flak blasts are a key to the nature of turbolasers. Or maybe I'm just confused ...
I suspect that turbolasers would be based on a combined particle beam and laser. Since the technology of the Empire includes the manipulation of exotic forms of matter, including hypermatter and neutronium, it seems likely that turbolasers derive their flak burst ability from exotic particles, such as mesons.
Mesons tend to disappear awfully fast, too fast to be useful, but accelerating to a significant percentage of C would allow the mesons to stick around longer due to time dilation effects. Precisely controlling the velocity of the meson packet would allow precise control of the point of decay of the meson packet. The mesons decay into assorted nasty radiation at the pre-selected range, and the conventional plasma packet accompanying the meson packet gets blown apart as a side effect of that decay, producing the characteristic flak burst. Presumably, the laser portion of the turbolaser would be turned off or scattered for that flak burst, since one would not want to accidentally shoot one's own ship while trying to take out enemy fighters.
A potentially odd side effect, though, would be that, since mesons are apparently not very reactive with regular particles, a meson burst could potentially be fired to explode inside a solid object, such as a bunker buried deep inside the crust of a planet. Presumably that would be a good reason to invest in planetary or theater shields. The one canon objection to my idea that I can come up with right off hand is that if the theater shield protecting the Rebel base on Hoth were not a full globe extending into the crust beneath the base, the star destroyers would just had to have changed orbit to shoot through the mass of the planet and land a few bursts directly under or even inside the base. Of course, the "shoot through planets" idea makes a BDZ operation by a single ISD quite plausible, since the ship could be simultaneously targeting both sides of a planet with each single turbolaser shot: the laser and plasma portions of the blast strike the facing side of the planet, and the meson packet gets timed to blow up on the opposite side of the planet.
Any of this seem particularly plausible?
