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Unlike some, I do not mind CGI and do not look upon older forms of special effects with rose tinted spectacles, however I still love model work, puppet work and costume props - also contrary to widespread misconceptions the Prequel Trilogy ironically featured more model and puppet work than the Original Trilogy, the CGI was just extra window dressing like other forms of special effects with Jar Jar Binks mainly being the result of terrible writing and voice acting rather than bad CGI.

However the only special effects complaint I have about the Prequel Trilogy was how the Clonetroopers (apart from Commander Cody) were entirely CGI - I can understand using CGI troopers for massed formations, long shots, stuntwork too dangerous for real life, crowd scenes and epic battles, but having CGI troopers right up close with the main human cast and extras just didn't seem to work for me. I thought it would've been much better if they made proper Clonetrooper armour worn by actors, extras and stuntmen rather making them entirely CGI characters like the TF soldier droids.

The current series of Doctor Who had it exactly right when they used solid props and costumes for the up close depiction of Daleks or Cybermen, only using CGI Daleks and Cybermen for the massed formations or doing actions that real props cannot do (like Dalek casings opening up for example).

What does anybody else think?

I think it worked just fine, considering the vast majority of the time, you can't even tell that they're computer-generated.

I really don't see the problem. The CG was quite excellent in AOTC and ROTS (even though there were slight problems when the actor's 'real' head was shown in ROTS).

Let's see, countless scores of actors of exactly the same height or at least close enough that it isn't apparent one is larger or smaller than the others, each requiring payment, OR CGI models that are nearly impossible to discern whether they are the actual actor or not requiring an infinitely smaller group of programmers and modelers, that's a toughie.

General Schatten wrote:Let's see, countless scores of actors of exactly the same height or at least close enough that it isn't apparent one is larger or smaller than the others, each requiring payment, OR CGI models that are nearly impossible to discern whether they are the actual actor or not requiring an infinitely smaller group of programmers and modelers, that's a toughie.

One assumes programmers and modelers are much more highly paid than Extras.

Crazedwraith wrote:

General Schatten wrote:Let's see, countless scores of actors of exactly the same height or at least close enough that it isn't apparent one is larger or smaller than the others, each requiring payment, OR CGI models that are nearly impossible to discern whether they are the actual actor or not requiring an infinitely smaller group of programmers and modelers, that's a toughie.

One assumes programmers and modelers are much more highly paid than Extras.

There aren't that many armies of Extras who exactly match Temura Morrissons physical proportions while in armour though, which for Mr Lucas, is probably more of a concern than how much something costs.

More importantly, once you've decided you're using CGI for medium-distance shots, then most of the cost is already sunk. You might as well use them for close-range.

Of course if clones had hair on their armor, this would be a different argument.

In my experience most people don't even realize that all the clones are CGI. Those I know that constantly scream "CGI sucks", are always the most surprised to learn this. It seems to me that only when you know it can't be done any other way, that people even notice CGI anymore. (This of course excludes crappily done CGI. )

Well the people who think that CGI is the root of all evil and any movie that uses even a single frame of CGI must suck by default don't realize that those scenes would have either had be done with extras (and it's highly unlikely you could find that many fitting extras that you could have shown the large armies in AOTC or ROTS) or by filming Temura Morrison in the armor over and over again until you would have gotten the numbers needed (which would have been a) probably more expensive b)definetly harder c)and the result wouldn't probably been as good d)all above or some combination of them)

There's also the problem that if you're using mixed CGI and costumes, there will almost certainly be a noticeable difference which can be quite distracting. People may not be able to tell which is which, but they will notice that they don't match up somehow. You avoid that by using consistent effects.

Also, making a shitload of costumes and props, and transporting them, isn't exactly free. Many people seem to think traditional effects are much cheaper, but that's not necessarily true.

Not to mention the precise choreography that would be required. Try to imagine a couple thousand extras moving in perfect harmony. Try doing that and getting the movie out on time.

For discussions of cost, please don't forget that ILM was already involved to do countless CGI effects already, including backdrops and space combat sequences etc etc.

They might as well have done all the armored clones as well. It would have been downright inefficient not to, for all the reasons already stated.

Besides, is anyone actually saying they don't look great? Why is this even an issue?

Howedar wrote:Of course if clones had hair on their armor, this would be a different argument.

In more ways than one

Cykeisme wrote:For discussions of cost, please don't forget that ILM was already involved to do countless CGI effects already, including backdrops and space combat sequences etc etc.

They might as well have done all the armored clones as well. It would have been downright inefficient not to, for all the reasons already stated.

Besides, is anyone actually saying they don't look great? Why is this even an issue?

Howedar wrote:Of course if clones had hair on their armor, this would be a different argument.

In more ways than one

I am saying they don't look great. The CGI is great, but the way they move and walk is off. Also, the armor pieces don't fit together right in my eye.

havokeff wrote:

Cykeisme wrote:For discussions of cost, please don't forget that ILM was already involved to do countless CGI effects already, including backdrops and space combat sequences etc etc.

They might as well have done all the armored clones as well. It would have been downright inefficient not to, for all the reasons already stated.

Besides, is anyone actually saying they don't look great? Why is this even an issue?

Howedar wrote:Of course if clones had hair on their armor, this would be a different argument.

In more ways than one

I am saying they don't look great. The CGI is great, but the way they move and walk is off. Also, the armor pieces don't fit together right in my eye.

Where? It might be subjective, but I can't tell that it's CG and the movements are great. Just look at the Utapau scenes in ROTS. Heck, people who have complained about the CG haven't known that the Clone Troopers are CG.

I think it's great that CGI has given filmmakers the ability to do scenes like the boarding of the Acclamators, but in my view, a real actor is still the #1 choice for scenes where CGI isn't absolutely necessary. For instance, the scene where Organa is chased off by the clonetroopers would have looked so much more convincing with actors, and in this case there would have been no practical reason not to - it's only a handful of troopers.

I'm really worried that in just a few years, ROTS is going to look really, really hokey in ways the prequel trilogy doesn't. Masks and models may not be state of the art or allow the degree of motion that CGI does, but they'll always look real - the lighting, the texture and the little imperfections is something modern CGI just can't replicate.

Looking back on AOTC, it already looks more like a videogame cutscene than a movie in places, whereas TESB still looks good after all these years.

CGI for space fighters? For backdrops? For flying aliens? Sure. But for actors? That's just overdoing it for the sake of showing off your toys.

havokeff wrote:I am saying they don't look great. The CGI is great, but the way they move and walk is off.

They pretty much exclusively used motion capture for the clonetroopers' movements in RotS, so if you don't think they're moving right that wouldn't be fixed by actors in costumes.

Dooey Jo wrote:

havokeff wrote:I am saying they don't look great. The CGI is great, but the way they move and walk is off.

They pretty much exclusively used motion capture for the clonetroopers' movements in RotS, so if you don't think they're moving right that wouldn't be fixed by actors in costumes.

ILM used motion capture for the clones in AOTC as well.

Dooey Jo wrote:

havokeff wrote:I am saying they don't look great. The CGI is great, but the way they move and walk is off.

They pretty much exclusively used motion capture for the clonetroopers' movements in RotS, so if you don't think they're moving right that wouldn't be fixed by actors in costumes.

Motion capture actors only wear a skintight suit with sensors, right? So unless they found a way to compensate for this, the clonetroopers won't move like they are in a heavy suit of armour, they'll move like they're wearing pajamas.

Mange wrote:ILM used motion capture for the clones in AOTC as well.

Yes, but the difference is that they used actual military people that knew how to move correctly, instead of, I think, the animators themselves. They say something like that on the DVD, though I don't remember if it's in the commentary or someplace else.

Bounty wrote:Motion capture actors only wear a skintight suit with sensors, right? So unless they found a way to compensate for this, the clonetroopers won't move like they are in a heavy suit of armour, they'll move like they're wearing pajamas.

They would have to, otherwise the individual armour pieces on the model might collide in strange ways, though you could of course restrain the animation data, but that could look bad. I think they would be using optical motion capture, so they could put whatever they like on the actor, as long as it doesn't interfere too much with the markers.

Dooey Jo wrote:

Mange wrote:ILM used motion capture for the clones in AOTC as well.

Yes, but the difference is that they used actual military people that knew how to move correctly, instead of, I think, the animators themselves. They say something like that on the DVD, though I don't remember if it's in the commentary or someplace else.

Yes, that's true. I thought I'd mention it when I wrote my post, but in the end I left it out. It's mentioned in the ROTS DVD commentary.

Bounty wrote:Motion capture actors only wear a skintight suit with sensors, right? So unless they found a way to compensate for this, the clonetroopers won't move like they are in a heavy suit of armour, they'll move like they're wearing pajamas.

Why would a functional suit of armor restrict movement?

Eleas wrote:

Bounty wrote:Motion capture actors only wear a skintight suit with sensors, right? So unless they found a way to compensate for this, the clonetroopers won't move like they are in a heavy suit of armour, they'll move like they're wearing pajamas.

Why would a functional suit of armor restrict movement?

It wouldn't restrict the maximum range of movement much, but you would move different when you're wearing a set of inflexible armour panels with a non-negligible weight, no? Look at the stormtroopers in the OT - the way they walk, they way they tilt their head.

Bounty wrote:

Eleas wrote: Why would a functional suit of armor restrict movement?

It wouldn't restrict the maximum range of movement much, but you would move different when you're wearing a set of inflexible armour panels with a non-negligible weight, no? Look at the stormtroopers in the OT - the way they walk, they way they tilt their head.

The whole point of the armor is to provide maximum flexibility of movement, and to spread the weight over the whole body. Perhaps the OT was poor at showing this, but real life medieval armor doesn't hamper your movements; you can even somersault in them. The first you'll notice is that your sight is reduced, and then, after a while, you'll start to get tired. But that's basically it.

I can agree on the mass aspect, though. It ought not to be very noticeable, however.

The scene inparticular that stands out to me, and is the extreme example that my eye catches, is after the trooper (Bly?) on Kayshyyk gets Order 66. The way he pivots and walks towards Yoda... just really off to me. There are others, but I would have to watch AOTC and ROTS to clear my memory up.

DoomTrain wrote:Not to mention the precise choreography that would be required. Try to imagine a couple thousand extras moving in perfect harmony. Try doing that and getting the movie out on time.

Gettysburg, The Last Samurai, Gods & Generals, and Patton all used a lot of extras, and those are just what comes immediately to mind.