SW:EGTVV

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-24 01:16pm

Is the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels a very canon source of info concerning SW ships? I have been using it to get some info for my website, but it has contradicted outher sources, namely the StarWars.com databanks (specifically, the length of the Executor Class SSD).

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2003-01-24 01:39pm

if i recall correctly... sw.com isnt CANON its OFFICIAL...or something? i think... someone correct me if im wrong... lol

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-24 01:40pm

Canon, Official, pretty much the same thing

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-24 01:53pm

Movies pretty much are still higher than Sw.com.

So if SW.com says it 8KM

and the movie shows otherwise...then well they are superceded by the movie.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 03:11pm

Here's how it works.

Taking all sources into account, including Lucas interview quotes, SW Continuity is broken up into two parts.

Movie and movie-related Sources.

EU and various Sources thereof.

Movie and movie-related Sources include the films, the film novelizations, the comic versions, and the radio dramas. Secondary film sources include movie-based sourcebooks/guides such as the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections, and Worlds of Attack of the Clones.

Of the movie-related sources, ONLY the FILMS are ABSOLUTE CANON. Nothing can contradict them. In addition to the films, George Lucas' interview comments are often additionally included in ABSOLUTE CANON, though perhaps slightly less so, as they are subject to change and have been changed throughout the years.

After ABSOLUTE movie canon, LFL's continuity fixes and statements are generally placed. Often these are devised or deemed neccessary by GL himself and exist to keep continuity in the SW universe stable. They override anything they disagree with, because they exist to override anything that would disrupt continuity.

After the films comes the comic, novel, and radio drama versions of the film. Anything in these not contradicted by the film or LFL Continuity fixes (such as Hobbie and Veers surviving in continuity whereas in the novelization of ESB they did not) is considered the highest level of the "Official" catagory of continuity, also known as Quasi-Canon or Non-Movie Canon.

Adding to those are the movie-based sourcebooks/guides. These again are high-level Official sources as long as they do not violate the canon set forth by the movies and their comic/novel/radio drama depictions.

After all of this comes the Expanded Universe. Expanded Universe sources are generally ranked by novels primarily, followed closely by comics (this is merely due to the fact that artistic license must be taken into affect when considering comics), followed by computer/console games, role-playing games, and guides.

EU novels are considered official and part of continuity where they don't violate the above continuity and don't violate science or outright violate each other. Often "interpretation" and continuity fixes repair these occasional mistakes.

EU comics follow immediately thereafter and only difference from novel continuity place is the art has to be taken w/ a grain of salt due to artistic interpretation.

EU official role-playing game, computer and console game storylines take place after this. The "official" storyline for each of these is often referenced in seperate source, and sometimes for sake of gameplay and game mechanics they slighly depart from the progress of the actual game. Generally the officially referenced story points are considered up there with EU comics and novels.

EU Role-playing Sourcebook and Essential Guides, etc. These are taken unless they violate above continuity or are outdated or inconsistent. Also, RPG Sourcebooks contain a few notable mistakes due to mis-scaling or lack of research.

Low-level EU such as certain games and certain Marvel comics. Sources which are hard to reconcile in their entirety or do not fit well into the storyline overall. These stories are considered to have happened but may have not occured exactly as the story depicted.

Absolute Canon:
Star Wars Movies
George Lucas' statements

Near-Canon:
LFL Continuity Fixes/Changes
Film novelizations, comic adaptions, official screenplays, and radio dramas

High-level Official:
Incredible Cross Sections and Worlds of... series. (SW.com would fit here; Official site but not made by Lucas)

General EU Official:
Novels
Comics (Dark Horse and most Marvel)
Games

EU Reference Sources Official:
Essential Guides
RPG Sourcebooks

Low-level EU:
Certain Games and Certain Marvel comics, other stories which are difficult to reconcile w/out fixes. (Definitely includes lamentable examples of EU literature, such as the Glove of Darth Vader series, which exists in continuity only as a vague version of the overall points of that storyline).

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-24 03:52pm

Btw you can safely throw the low-level eu out of the continuity.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 03:57pm

It generally doesn't matter, he's right. It's mostly disregarded and only die-hard Canon Completists insist on caring what the retconned Essential Chronology version of the shitty GoDV.

I only included it for the sake of completeness.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-24 04:48pm

but is the EGTVV generally a reliable source? does anyone know of any blatant continuity errors in it?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-24 04:56pm

I have seen your site. I have most of the information you present there, plus quite alot more, and for Every Vong ship and most of the standard ships as well. Only thing I lack is some of the ship "bios", the descriptions you have. Contact me, and I will send you it all in a zip format. It is in MS Word files.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-24 04:58pm

NF_Utvol wrote:but is the EGTVV generally a reliable source? does anyone know of any blatant continuity errors in it?

Yes, things like the number of guns an ISD mounts, it screwed up the Liberator (it think that was it, might have been the Emancipator) and the Mon Remoda, which required a continuity fix. It's also woefully out of date and lackks most of the ships now adays.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 05:14pm

EGTVV has the wrong length for the Executor, shows an incorrect model, and it also has numerous other WEG-derived errors.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-24 06:21pm

Excellent run-down of Canon/Apocrypha, IP.

I have two fixes and a question, though...

1) George Lucas' statements should be clearly delineated as immediately below the movies...after all, he can contradict them in his interviews. He has the right to change the movies as much as he wants, but until he puts it into his movies, it's not highest-level canon, and can be superceded by the movies. I can't think of any examples of blatant contradiction, but it's certainly possible (he does use odd pronunciations, though...)
I agree that placing his comments up high is important, as they give good insight into the creators thoughts and about the "correct" interpretation of the events seen on screen.

2) The Visual Dictionaries are up there with the ICS, as movie-based literature.

Question: should we include HolonetNews with the official site? I assume so, but not many people give it much attention. It was an excellent series of articles, and even though it only deals indirectly with the events in the movies, it's of the same quality as the official site or the VDs.
Additionally, if we do include HN up there, do we include its current incarnation in SWInsider magazine?

Oh yeah, maybe somebody should make a sticky thread with a list like this, so that anybody can access it at any time, without having to create more threads.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 06:54pm

Absolute Canon:
Star Wars Movies
George Lucas' statements

Near-Canon:
LFL Continuity Fixes/Changes
Official Screenplays/Scripts
Movie Novelizations and Radio Dramas
Movie Comic Adaptions

High-level Official:
Incredible Cross Sections + Worlds of... series.
Holonetnews.net and SWInsider incarnation
Visual Dictionaries
SW.com (fits here; Official site but not made by Lucas)

General EU Official:
Novels
Comics (Dark Horse and most Marvel)
Games

EU Reference Sources Official:
Essential Guides
RPG Sourcebooks

Low-level EU:
Certain Games and Certain Marvel comics, other stories which are difficult to reconcile w/out fixes. (Definitely includes lamentable examples of EU literature, such as the Glove of Darth Vader series, which exists in continuity only as a vague version of the overall points of that storyline).

Updated. I decided to count SW.com last in High-level Official because it is behind on several subjects and even has an error or two. It also subscribes to several EU fallacies, such as the 12.8 km

Executor.

I counted ICS and Worlds of... because the Visual Dictionaries sometimes subscribe to EU brain-bugs (I believe that HDS said it refered to blasters using plasma) and some of its source material is EU.

I counted Holonetnews.net and Insider incarnation next because it includes some rather clever EU tie-ins and little contradiction, mostly just tying up loose ends and even some official LFL continuity fixes, such as the Ruusan Reformation.

If anyone approves, I agree this could be stickied for the benefit of the occasional newb or recalcitrant bastard who wants to turn an unrelated debate in a EU = canon or "I don't give a shit about the EU" rant. Those should be dealt with within their own threads.

Updated Again: Spanky pointed out the Comics. While I don't agree with his reason, the "artistic license" bit used to rate the EU comics slightly below the EU novels and that's mentioned by Cerasi would, in my mind, place the comics slightly below novelizations + radio dramas. Additionally, the scripts/screenplays are the closest thing there is to the film itself, so I placed them slightly above the novelizations + radio dramas.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-24 07:20pm

I have never heard that the film comics are in the Canon bracket.

Nor should film novelisations precede the actual scripts.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-24 07:21pm

NF_Utvol wrote:but is the EGTVV generally a reliable source? does anyone know of any blatant continuity errors in it?

It makes SOME minor mistakes here and there, but for the most part the text portion of it is a reliable method of divining what has been written in primary sources on the different craft examined in the book.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 07:27pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I have never heard that the film comics are in the Canon bracket.

Nor should film novelisations precede the actual scripts.

All adaptions are closely monitored by LFL.

And in case you noticed, equal-authority sources are grouped side-by-side, where as unequal sources are each placed in a respective line from top to bottom by their authority under each of the catagories.

Edit:

The "order" is very nebulous and hardly word-for-word dictated by LFL.

I took GL's quote, that he has his material, and then there's everyone else's, and I took that with the Cerasi quote on how there's the movies, movie adaptions, and EU, and then I took the Licensing quote from Gamer 5 that EVERYTHING is canon (except Infinities).

I took this to mean that films/GL opinion = absolute canon, near-movie source = near-canon, and EU = official continuity, and that everything is part of continuity unless declared apocryphal or truly, completely beyond fix or salvage.

I did some minor and rather negligible ordering by "distance from movies," "artistic license," and known errors/brain-bugs.

I also edited it again above taking into account the screenplays and the comics relative to the radio dramas + novelizations. See list.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-24 08:12pm

Ender wrote:Yes, things like the number of guns an ISD mounts, it screwed up the Liberator (it think that was it, might have been the Emancipator) and the Mon Remoda, which required a continuity fix. It's also woefully out of date and lackks most of the ships now adays.

Just a small side note (to those whom it may concern), in Oct 2003, a new Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels will be made, and Mr. Haden Blackman will do the honors.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 09:16pm

I want Saxton to do it.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-24 09:23pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Ender wrote:Yes, things like the number of guns an ISD mounts, it screwed up the Liberator (it think that was it, might have been the Emancipator) and the Mon Remoda, which required a continuity fix. It's also woefully out of date and lackks most of the ships now adays.
Just a small side note (to those whom it may concern), in Oct 2003, a new Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels will be made, and Mr. Haden Blackman will do the honors.

I knew one had to be coming, after they redid EG to characters. Link?

And I'm with IP, Saxton should have done it.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-24 10:04pm

Ender wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I knew one had to be coming, after they redid EG to characters. Link?

And I'm with IP, Saxton should have done it.

No link, it's in Star Wars Insider #65, in the "Bookshelf" article.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-24 10:21pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Ender wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I knew one had to be coming, after they redid EG to characters. Link?

And I'm with IP, Saxton should have done it.
No link, it's in Star Wars Insider #65, in the "Bookshelf" article.

*checks* How did I mis that?!

And wasn't this edition suppossed to have the origin of the Vong in it? I can't find it.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-24 10:34pm

I was wondering how long this would take. There has been ALOT of development in the SW universe since the last one was put out.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-25 01:29am

NF_Utvol wrote:I was wondering how long this would take. There has been ALOT of development in the SW universe since the last one was put out.

To be honest, I had begun updating my EG: Characters with text-only entries when they announced they were going to add their own update. While I think that their entries are better than my old ones, they're not complete.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-25 02:37am

Regardless of what everyone else decides, let us all be wise and accept the 11km Super Star Destroyer.

anyone who says 8 km, well...lets just say there are short buses availiable to take you to school.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-25 02:41am

But are there any 'canon' or 'quasi-canon' sources that state either way? I have heard the 8km theory, the 11km theory, and the 12.8km theory. Which is correct? The sw.com databank says 12.8km, and, as far as I know, tha would be about as close to geniuine canon as you can get, short of blatant statemtn by GL or in a movie.