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In the films as well as EU literature, games etc lightsabers have been mostly single bladed with occasional double bladed models and some Jedi using two sabers at once. Fanboys (most Jedi knight and KoToR players) have debated endless about how double bladed lightsabers or duel wielding rocks while others defend the classic dueling style in the OT. So here is the question - what exactly is the best way to wield a weapon like the lightsaber ?

IMO, the best way to wield a lightsaber is to keep as much control of it as possible. It's simply too dangerous to use casually, so you use it carefully. Dual wielding doubles your attacks but limits your options. You have two sabers, and each one could cut your own head off! Worst of all is the dual balded saber, because you can't handle it like a staff. You have to invest a ton of effort into the basic forms of that style, just so you don't cut yourself in half the first time you attack rebounds off another saber. It's also vulnerable at the center of the blade, in that almost 90 cm long hilt. A single strike there could not only sever the blade but could put one or both halves out of commission. Both exotic styles would require a degree of hand-eye coordination that would simply be super-human. Maybe beyond even your average precognitive Jedi. We know from the RotS novelization that when a Sith's outmatched, or expending power, it can turn into a downward spiral where they spend more power to less effect, and wind up spending even more of the Force. Something similar for Jedi wouldn't be unexpected. Using a more stressful, more dangerous style of combat would be even worse for avoiding this situation.

So my vote is keep both hands on the damn thing at the same time, and handle the damn thing like a katana. Anything else is just silly.

It all depends on the situation, the capabilities of the combatants, and the preferences of the lightsaber wielder. Darth Maul used a double-ended lightsaber to great effect in TPM, but a double-ended saber wouldn't have worked for Luke in ROTJ because he didn't have the training or the inclination to use it.

In the same way, Grievous used 2-4 lightsabers (and also 6, I've heard) and was very effective with them because of his unique capabilities. Using 4 lightsabers wouldn't work for others because they can't fight the way Grievous fights.

It all depends on the situation and the people in the situation. There is no best way.

Double-ended lightsabers are completely useless. Anybody who has ever handled a staff knows that to use it effectively one must be able to move one's hands along the length of it. Only the fact that the guy who played Darth Maul was a truly professional martial artist made the weapon seem effective. He could have been fearsome with a pair of glowing sporks.

For anything else, we need to know if lightsabers are heavy (original trilogy style) or light (prequels style). If the latter, one would want a long weapon with a one-handed hilt, and a small shield or a long dagger in the off hand. If the former, than the original trilogy had the right idea. Lightsabers and Jedi have interesting properties, but when it all comes down to it, they're swordsmen - and to find out what's effective for swordsmen, one needs only to look at what swordsmen have used over the millennia.

well as said it depends alot situation and the wielders, Yoda's "monkey on crack" style was mainly due to his short reach (being less then 1 metre tall), while generally only being with 4 or more arms could wield more then 2 sabers. Also it's said that if your opponent knows the limits of the weapon a saberstaff is a really poor weapon, as it relies alot or opponent thinking you got more options to use due to the twin blades when in fact you got less due to the blades being linked and the fact it takes alot of skill to even use the style let alone master it (this is from the Darth Bane novel).

The one thing that did intrest me in the NJO was when someone switched their saber off then switched it back on to impale the opponent. Strikes me as being an effective tactic. Is it considered bad form to do it in battle ?

When viewing game mechanics, most seem to gimp the single lightsaber styles that you see most often. In Jedi Academy, the double-bladed saber seems to be just plain better than any other option. In KOTOR, you inhibit yourself by wielding a single lightsaber (since you get less attacks, and the dueling bonuses don't really make up the difference). This is doubly true in KOTOR 2, with the addition of a large number of crystals that enhance attributes.

I kinda enjoyed this system that a friend of mine made up where the mechanics for lightsaber combat were so abstracted that it didn't matter whether you wielded one saber or twelve sabers. The roll basically determined how well you did for some segment of the fight. My character actually didn't wield a lightsaber at all, which I could get away with because my character had regenerative Force powers and for race I randomly drew some comic book race that could survive decapitation. Oh, the number of times the party had a plan that involved my character getting intentionally decapitated... at least until his Sith girlfriend stole his head.

Anyway, I'm getting off-topic. Basically it comes down to how you've trained. Jedi have been able to make combat forms that are stupid and don't work actually work simply by virtue of them being Jedi and having all the privileges thereof. So if a powerful Force user spends all his time training with a double-bladed lightsaber, he'll be able to kick your ass with a double-bladed lightsaber. If he doesn't, he might chop his own arms off.

Oh, and as an addendum, the Niman form sucks. Big time.

I look at it this way: If wielding a lightstaff or dual lightsabers was so much better than a traditional design, then why don't we see that many Jedi doing so in the movies? Not only this, but in real life, professional swordsmen only use a single blade. Gee, could it be because that even though exotic styles such as dual wielding look cool, they're combat ineffective? I believe so.

As lightsabre combat is styled after various forms of sword combat in real life it's not unexpected to see that wielding two blades or a double bladed sabre are rare. There are some wiki articles that when read give a fair indication of the differences.

Someone mentioned Corran Horn's method of turning off his sabre and quickly back on again at the Battle of Ithor. From memory this is a once off occasion where his sabre was locked against an Amphistaff. In turning his sabre blade off when close to his opponent he was able to angle the hilt so that when the blade was reignited it was aimed up under his opponents body armour.

Vehrec wrote:IMO, the best way to wield a lightsaber is to keep as much control of it as possible. It's simply too dangerous to use casually, so you use it carefully. Dual wielding doubles your attacks but limits your options. You have two sabers, and each one could cut your own head off!

I have to ask whether you have ever fenced, because the above text reveals a hefty amount of ignorance on the topic. Firstly, dual wielding does not double your attacks. Your movements are not dictated solely by the range of motion of one arm, and so it's far more complicated than "one more striking arm = one more attack". What the two weapon combo can offer you is more options: you might, for instance, lock one of your swords with the opponent's blade while still being able to attack, or you might be able to hold both high and middle guard. Fighting with two weapons, if you're properly trained in their use, allows you less strength and some loss of precision, but is more confusing to an enemy because attacks become more unpredictable.

I'm not going to dignify the idea of a competent fighter cutting his own head off with any sort of response.

Worst of all is the dual balded saber, because you can't handle it like a staff. You have to invest a ton of effort into the basic forms of that style, just so you don't cut yourself in half the first time you attack rebounds off another saber.

No. Just... no. There's far more danger in the temptation of using staff techniques that rely on the staff resting close to the body.

It's also vulnerable at the center of the blade, in that almost 90 cm long hilt. A single strike there could not only sever the blade but could put one or both halves out of commission. Both exotic styles would require a degree of hand-eye coordination that would simply be super-human.

Nonsense. In terms of difficulty to control, there's no significant difference between wielding a lightsaber and using, for instance, a rapier, and history is replete with instances of sword-and-dagger fighting or even two-sword use.

Maybe beyond even your average precognitive Jedi. We know from the RotS novelization that when a Sith's outmatched, or expending power, it can turn into a downward spiral where they spend more power to less effect, and wind up spending even more of the Force. Something similar for Jedi wouldn't be unexpected. Using a more stressful, more dangerous style of combat would be even worse for avoiding this situation.

This seems horrendously speculative. You imply that simply using a lightsaber requires constantly tapping into the Force, which is just crazy. A Jedi or a Sith would be crippled in any real fight were that the case.

So my vote is keep both hands on the damn thing at the same time, and handle the damn thing like a katana. Anything else is just silly.

And how exactly do you think a katana is handled? Very, very carefully because it can cut through anything? You do know that katanas were on occasion paired with wakizashi for a reason, yes?

Assuming PT light lightsabers, the best real life analogue (in fact, an almost-perfect real life analogue) is the rapier. It has a meter-long blade, is straight, has two edges (as much as any real sword has them, at least), is very sturdy, and is light enough and balanced enough to wield with one hand (thought still, at three pounds, heavy enough to require a strong wielder and to have plenty of momentum behind each strike). While one does well to "remember thy swashing blow", the way the weapon should be used is blatantly obvious from its construction: thrust, thrust, thrust, thrust, thrust. Adding an off hand weapon of some sort is sensible here - a dagger, buckler, spike, or cloak would be appropriate, presuming a material that could resist lightsabers. A pistol would probably be better than any of those, particularly for eliminating those pesky enemies who have the nerve to stand more than two meters away, but that's more Space Marine than Jedi Knight.

Get even lighter, and the smallsword becomes the best example, though that's a bit on the short side.

Handling a lightsaber like a katana - a curved weapon with one edge and no stabbing point - is just foolishness.

Feil wrote:Handling a lightsaber like a katana - a curved weapon with one edge and no stabbing point - is just foolishness.

Principally I agree with your post, but the Katana does have a stabbing point - there are several techniques in Iaido that utilize the thrust. It's just a tad less effective than it would be using a straight blade.

As for techniques, looking at how the different Jedi and Sith use it, the lightsaber seems to be well-suited to a broad variety of styles. Everything from smallsword to longsword to kenjutsu techniques seems represented.

WRT the Original Trilogy (and ignoring the EU and prequels), might we be seeing a result of a style designed for militaries employing "elegant weapons, for a more civilized age" that we never see in the prequels? Wielding a lightsaber like a greatsword seems pretty silly if it's a duelist's weapon, but it might make more sense if it's designed for futuristic cavalrymen or pike formations in some Dune-esque environment that precludes the use of missile weapons.

Feil wrote:WRT the Original Trilogy (and ignoring the EU and prequels), might we be seeing a result of a style designed for militaries employing "elegant weapons, for a more civilized age" that we never see in the prequels? Wielding a lightsaber like a greatsword seems pretty silly if it's a duelist's weapon, but it might make more sense if it's designed for futuristic cavalrymen or pike formations in some Dune-esque environment that precludes the use of missile weapons.

For the most part, the prequel trilogy shows us a high degree of flashiness and a absence of unified, no-nonsense swordsmanship. This doesn't bring my mind to a regimented military methodology; honestly, this is what one would expect from people whose primary means of practice have been bloodless duels, where practicality may well be less important than aesthetics. It tells us the Jedi have grown to rely on their Force-bestowed advantages in battle to make up for their pointless extravagance.

To my mind, we've never seen a lightsaber wielded like a greatsword. You do know how a greatsword is employed, yes?

Eleas wrote:You do know that katanas were on occasion paired with wakizashi for a reason, yes?

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū, which still exists today, as I recall.

In the same way, Grievous used 2-4 lightsabers (and also 6, I've heard) and was very effective with them because of his unique capabilities. Using 4 lightsabers wouldn't work for others because they can't fight the way Grievous fights.

He can technically use six, given he can fight with his feet and has repulsors mounted somewhere in his body. However, he never has (though he might have used five somewhere - I don't really recall).

The one thing that did intrest me in the NJO was when someone switched their saber off then switched it back on to impale the opponent. Strikes me as being an effective tactic. Is it considered bad form to do it in battle ?

There does exist a technique that involves switching the saber on and off in quick succession, almost as though replicating certain 'draw and strike' styles.

Ford Prefect wrote:

Eleas wrote:You do know that katanas were on occasion paired with wakizashi for a reason, yes?

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū, which still exists today, as I recall.

And for pulling of a ritual suicide correctly. (Is that what you meant?).

In the same way, Grievous used 2-4 lightsabers (and also 6, I've heard) and was very effective with them because of his unique capabilities. Using 4 lightsabers wouldn't work for others because they can't fight the way Grievous fights.

He can technically use six, given he can fight with his feet and has repulsors mounted somewhere in his body. However, he never has

Correct.

(though he might have used five somewhere - I don't really recall).

Season 1 finale of CW, he hops around with one leg while the other holds a light-saber. (as opposed to his uaul tactic of hopping around and using one leg to crush his opponents skulls).

The one thing that did intrest me in the NJO was when someone switched their saber off then switched it back on to impale the opponent. Strikes me as being an effective tactic. Is it considered bad form to do it in battle ?

There does exist a technique that involves switching the saber on and off in quick succession, almost as though replicating certain 'draw and strike' styles.

Sounds like an excellent "Double KO" trick. Of course, it requires the user to be VERY fast, suicidal and the blade to re-activate quickly enough. Oh, and the opponent not to use his Pre-cog to see this coming.
A rather foolhardy tactic, to say the least.

An additional point on the "multiple lightsaber are impossible to co-ordinate" front, Jedi are not normal humans nor are the aliens whom we often see wielding exotic light-____'s. A higher degree of co-ordination (to the point of each hand being independent, and attacking at a seperate angle or velocity, as was Grevious's favourite trick) would over-come the Real life flaws mentioned.
It would however, require a larger expenditure of focus or perhaps "Force boosting" (if done by a human), leaving the attacker physically formidable, but less versatile. (being a giant, 4 armed Vespid won't help you if you're so focused on slicing & dicing that you end up getting battered into the ground by TK, or if your opponent is simply seeing minutes ahead of you, again, as was the case of Grevious vs Obi-Wan).

Luke had an interesting technique for countering the Lightwhip, thd addition of a shanto(sp?) which by all accounts was pretty useful.

Ford Prefect wrote:

Eleas wrote:You do know that katanas were on occasion paired with wakizashi for a reason, yes?

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū, which still exists today, as I recall.

It's probably still being taught, but I doubt it's completely preserved except in its kata form.

Eleas wrote:

Maybe beyond even your average precognitive Jedi. We know from the RotS novelization that when a Sith's outmatched, or expending power, it can turn into a downward spiral where they spend more power to less effect, and wind up spending even more of the Force. Something similar for Jedi wouldn't be unexpected. Using a more stressful, more dangerous style of combat would be even worse for avoiding this situation.

This seems horrendously speculative. You imply that simply using a lightsaber requires constantly tapping into the Force, which is just crazy. A Jedi or a Sith would be crippled in any real fight were that the case.

USING a lightsaber clearly requires no Force, but Jedi-Sith combat, as is exhaustively established in the movie adaptation novels, involves engagement on both the physical plane, where the Force is used to boost speed and strength and occasionally throw shit or grapple/check the opponent, and on the mental plane where a fighter must use the Force to anticipate his foe's moves while attempting to cloud his thoughts, obscuring the opposing precognition, further resisting the attempts to cloud his own...

By the way, I'll throw in with the minority in favor of one-per-hand (so probably two) saber fighting: more options and less predictability outweigh the disadvantage of less powerful blows in my mind.

Sriad wrote:By the way, I'll throw in with the minority in favor of one-per-hand (so probably two) saber fighting: more options and less predictability outweigh the disadvantage of less powerful blows in my mind.

It's not just powerful blows. The difficulty lies in being unable to push back against an oncoming blade; your parries will become progressively more difficult, and your whole way of moving will basically have to be overhauled. After some training, single-bladed fighting will become almost intuitive. If given another blade, this instinct will be lost to you until you've learned how to move in new ways. It's not compensating; your whole body must now move not just in relation to a single center line and point of gravity, but two new lines that continually move all over in relation to your center of gravity.

This is offset, I believe, by techniques in which you practice simultaneous movement of both blades. Problem is that if these are performed poorly, or thrown out of alignment, a swordsman inexperienced at using two weapons will have his rhythm and poise thoroughly broken.

DEATH wrote:And for pulling of a ritual suicide correctly. (Is that what you meant?).

That's not what I mean't, no. It was a style that emphasised the usage of both swords of the daishō. It was supposedly formed by Miyamoto Musashi (who probably didn't actually exist), who suggested that good training for using both katana and wakizashi would be two equally long blades - if you could handle two long blades, you could handle one long blade and a short blade. I think it's mentioned somewhere in The Book of Five Rings.

Season 1 finale of CW, he hops around with one leg while the other holds a light-saber. (as opposed to his uaul tactic of hopping around and using one leg to crush his opponents skulls).

Actually, when going one on one with Ki Adi Mundi, he's only using three blades.

Oh, and the opponent not to use his Pre-cog to see this coming.
A rather foolhardy tactic, to say the least.

Which is why Jedi are never, ever killed by anything ever. Wait, hold on.

Precognition is not infallible, especially not against other Force users - part of Jedi/Sith/whatever fighting is using the Force to cloud the opponent's mind. Ultimately, anyone with half a brain is going to know that the saber will be turned on eventually; however, if they're making it difficult to see when it's coming via their mystical abilities it can still be surprising.

Ford Prefect wrote:

DEATH wrote:And for pulling of a ritual suicide correctly. (Is that what you meant?).

That's not what I mean't, no. It was a style that emphasised the usage of both swords of the daishō. It was supposedly formed by Miyamoto Musashi (who probably didn't actually exist), who suggested that good training for using both katana and wakizashi would be two equally long blades - if you could handle two long blades, you could handle one long blade and a short blade. I think it's mentioned somewhere in The Book of Five Rings.

Interesting.

Season 1 finale of CW, he hops around with one leg while the other holds a light-saber. (as opposed to his uaul tactic of hopping around and using one leg to crush his opponents skulls).

Actually, when going one on one with Ki Adi Mundi, he's only using three blades.

I just re-watched it, and you're correct. My bad. (I must have been mixed up with the parts with Dooku and the S1 Finale when he holds or switches between his hands and legs while holding his lightsabers).

Oh, and the opponent not to use his Pre-cog to see this coming.
A rather foolhardy tactic, to say the least.

Which is why Jedi are never, ever killed by anything ever. Wait, hold on.

Sorry if you misunderstood me, I meant that pre-cog of even a minimal degree would make this attack utterly useless due to the fact that it relies on the opponent not being ready for no resistance and a suicidal attack of this sort.

Precognition is not infallible, especially not against other Force users - part of Jedi/Sith/whatever fighting is using the Force to cloud the opponent's mind. Ultimately, anyone with half a brain is going to know that the saber will be turned on eventually

Again, you're re-inforcing my (albeit, poorly worded) point.

however, if they're making it difficult to see when it's coming via their mystical abilities it can still be surprising.

Yes, but sensing a willingness to die or even a blade de-activated would be enough. (When you're operating on the reflex level of your average Jedi).


Oh, and while I'm posting I might as well add my voice to those noting that fencing with two blades after being used to one is even harder.
(I am a fencer, and even playing with two sword-like objects leaves me as able in it as a babe, despite being 3d ranked in the country in Saber style fencing).

DEATH wrote:Oh, and the opponent not to use his Pre-cog to see this coming.
A rather foolhardy tactic, to say the least.

You realise, of course, that not only do Yummy Kong not have precognition, but that almost every single lightsaber duelling tactic requires the enemy not to see it coming in order to avoid being blocked. Jedi precognition is by no means perfect, especially against other jedi. Exar Kun reputedly used a 'trick' similar to this to slay many masters.

(to the point of each hand being independent, and attacking at a seperate angle or velocity, as was Grevious's favourite trick)

You mean, his trick in the utterly wanked out, contradicting-the-canon, passage of the novel where he does that. He's not nearly so twinky in the canon...

NecronLord wrote:

DEATH wrote:Oh, and the opponent not to use his Pre-cog to see this coming.
A rather foolhardy tactic, to say the least.

You realise, of course, that not only do Yummy Kong not have precognition

But they do have armour that can (albeit, unreliably) take lightsaber hits, and are insanely tough. (meaning that they might survive a single hit to the chest, leaving their little wank-snakes to gobble up on the defenceless Jee-dai).

, but that almost every single lightsaber duelling tactic requires the enemy not to see it coming in order to avoid being blocked.

Yes, but most aren't so suicidal for the user..
Throwing a sword at someone also requires that it not be seen in order to work, but you'll be helpless after it. (Unlike, say a Lunge which might leave you over-extended, but will allow you to defend yourself and move since you still have your sword/haven't been disemboweled).

Jedi precognition is by no means perfect, especially against other jedi.

Again, My quote was meant to point out how potentially useless the tactic would be, especially against other Jedi.

Exar Kun reputedly used a 'trick' similar to this to slay many masters

Quote/Scan? (Just to make sure ). Also, he was absurdly powerful and fast regardless of the trick, when you can smash your opponents will based weapon or "blitz" them with raw, force-endowed speed then such a risky trick can be useful. (Note that he tried no such thing when in critical, evenly-matched duels, such as with Vodo Baask).

(to the point of each hand being independent, and attacking at a seperate angle or velocity, as was Grevious's favourite trick)

You mean, his trick in the utterly wanked out, contradicting-the-canon, passage of the novel

Oh, you mean the bit in Labyrinth Of Evil where his armour can take starfighter shots? Or where he discovers an underlying algorithmic form in Vaapad after fighting Mace for a few seconds?
Oh, right you mean the canon novelization, not one of the other books (Or the "Fable"/CW Cartoon) that wank Grevious up to an even higher degree .

where he does that. He's not nearly so twinky in the canon...

Movie canon only shows him with his internal organs pulped while twirling a diabolical moustache. (Insert YTMND).

EDIT: Cleared up the Vong line

The only person I recall to have used two lightsabers at once well is the Dark Jedi Boc, and he never bothered to stand in one place for more than a second for the limited defensive options to be of much concern.

It's interesting to note that one of the reasons Kyle Katarn performed so well against Jerec's Dark Jedi was because he was a trained duelist when he served in the Empire.