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Posted: **2007-07-30 07:18pm**

I was thinking about this today after a math test, as I had a few minutes of free time. Lets say Darth Vader kills the Emperor and takes his place, he is the Emperor. How would the Empire fare under his rule?

Again, I will state, I have no real knowledge of what occurs in the EU (except some major events) so I have to ask, does Vader condone slavery? From Episode I and maybe Episode II I got the feeling that Darth Vader hated slavery, since he experienced it firsthand. So, would he suddenly force the Empire to quit its enslavement of whatever slaves it has?

Hell, can Vader even RUN the Empire?

Also, I remember the Stormtroopers, TIE fighters, and some other Imperial troops being fanatically loyal to the Emperor, so, would they accept him, or would Vader and his Empire find himself being attacked by every stormie in the galaxy?

Posted: **2007-07-30 07:29pm**

If Vader did manage to kill the emperor I'd imagine the first thing to happen would be a full scale civil war as in post Endor. The Emperor set the empire up specifically so he was indispensable to both the military and political decision making process. The Moffs as far as I'm aware answer to no one other than the Emperor himself, even Vader was not of sufficient rank to challenge Tarkins authority directly.

However Vader would likely become the senior 'warlord' once the civil war settled down to his claims of legitimate rule of the empire and perhaps his superior skills provided by the force. Whether such an empire would be in a better position to defend itself from the creep of the Rebellion however is a different matter.

On your point of Vader being more moral a leader I doubt it. He was completely warped and corrupted by his time with the Emperor and was the iron fist of his will. He has doubtlessly killed trillions putting down rebellion and revolt whilst establishing imperial rule so its likely pretty safe he has lost any feelings of empathy to his childhood that he had. It took quite a long time for him to decide that the emperor torturing his son in front of himwas a bad thing after all.

Posted: **2007-07-30 07:40pm**

Vader was not of sufficient rank to challenge Tarkins authority directly.

I understand what you mean, but then again, at the time he was not a sufficient rank, but now he is the Emperor.

Then again, I see your point, various Imperial leader are likely to create a civil war.

Posted: **2007-07-30 07:58pm**

Wait, did Vader kill civilians, or was he killing armed members of the Rebellion? ( I ask because killing armed rebels is one thing, killing civilians is another)

On the other hand, if he killed civilians, well.. that just brings this idea i had down.

Posted: **2007-07-30 08:16pm**

Some previous thoughts on the matter (from 31 March 2005, in Stravo's "Would the Empire have won without The Emperor?" thread):

Publius wrote:In the event of the Galactic Emperor's death, Lord Vader is not particularly high on the list of natural claimants to the Imperial Throne (although Grand Moff Trachta did refer to the Empire as being "a theocracy of two"). Lord Vader was the Galactic Emperor's personal representative and even his generalissimo after the Battle of Yavin, but his position in the Imperial State was far from absolute; he decidedly lacked the power and influence of the Grand Vizier or Ars Dangor (as gray an Eminence as Père Joseph ever was). Lord Vader, like GADM Grant and GADM Thrawn and even the Emperor's Hands, was more or less reliant on the Galactic Emperor's favor for his position; he lacked a power base of his own.

In addition to lacking a party of his own, Lord Vader had the active hatred of several established parties at court. He was overtly despised and opposed by such courtiers as the Baron Tagge, Grand Moff Nox Vellam, and GADM Rufaan Tigellinus, and covertly hated by others like the Prince Xizor. Nor was he so feared that to oppose him was unthinkable; there have been no less than three plots against him by disaffected Naval officers (one in "Betrayal," one in "Darth Vader Strikes," and one in "Resurrection of Evil" and "To Take the Tarkin").

There is ample evidence that Lord Vader dislikes politicking. Nevertheless, his distaste for it should not be mistaken for inability at it; he can be quite cunning when he chooses to be. He engineered the Baron Tagge's death on Monastery at Luke Skywalker's hands in "In Mortal Combat!", outmaneuvered the Princess Leia on Aargau in "The Third Law!", double-crossed the treacherous admirals in "Darth Vader Strikes," and arranged successfully to stigmatize Skywalker with his rebel comrades in "Pariah!" There is no question that he prefers direct and decisive action, as seen in The Empire Strikes Back and Shadows of the Empire, but he is most certainly not the clumsy brute that Mr. Zahn subsequently painted him as being (Thrawn snidely informed CAPT Pellaeon that he had no objection to accepting a good idea that was not his, unlike Lord Vader, despite the fact that the Dark Lord of the Sith had accepted Thrawn's own proposal to dispose of Zekka Thyne in "Side Trip").

Lord Vader almost certainly had in mind elevating himself to the Throne, not a Pestagian-Isardian regency or a Thrawnian shogunate. The best way to do this would be to secure his position as supreme commander. With the strategic forces under his command, he would wield a considerable amount of leverage against other possible claimants, and indeed might very well be able to win over the Grand Vizier or Dangor by offering to leave him in place as premier of his new Empire (neither Dangor nor the Grand Vizier ever showed an indication that they resented their status as the Galactic Emperor's alter ego, and could probably be convinced to continue managing the day-to-day operations of the Imperial State). This would dispose of one of the chief problems of ascending the Throne.

The problem of Lord Vader's obsession with finding his son might also be dealt with by judicious delegation of responsibility, which Lord Vader has been known to do before (e.g., FADM Firmus Piett after Bespin). He has been shown to have worked closely with Thrawn before, and could probably count on his support; he might also be able to secure the allegiance of Grant, the Tapani aristocrat who lacked any power base of his own, and of GADM Teshik, the conscientious and dutiful officer commanding the important Azure Hammer Command (it is very likely that he could also acquire GADM Takel, who was won over to Trioculus's Legitimists by nothing more than a demonstration of Force lightning). By delegating the war against the Rebellion to these officers, and possibly dispatching his own dark side pupils – such as Lord Hethrir, High Inquisitor Tremayne – to find and bring Skywalker to him.

Lord Vader could certainly rule an Empire, albeit probably a different one from the one that Darth Sidious created. He is more than willing to play competing parties against each other, and will not hesitate to liquidate enemies when the time is right (indeed, this style of leadership held Isard in power during her dictatorial regency, and it was her own deliberate policy that brought her regime down). As early as the Battle of Yavin, he fancied plans to install himself as a celestial ruler, and he certainly planned to "kill the Emperor and devour his darkness, and rule the universe." His plans for apotheosis were probably more like Jerec's, and therefore might be seen as relatively more benign than the Galactic Emperor's own narcissistic design.

A final note on Lord Vader's religious leanings: As late as Return of the Jedi he was a committed devotee of the dark side of the Force, as evidenced by his reflection that the eternal "emptiness at his core" would become "an exalted void" that would "encompass the universe" after he "learned all he could of the dark power" from the Galactic Emperor's "dark genius," and seized that same power and "keep its cold light at his own core." He fully intended to rule the universe as a dark side theocrat, with his son at his side. Though he lacked the Galactic Emperor's narcissistic desire to consume all life into himself, he certainly showed no signs of apostatizing and returning to the Jedi; he only repudiated the dark side when faced with the immediate choice between his redemptive love for his son and his perverse love for his Sith Master. With the Galactic Emperor dead, this choice would never present itself, and there is little impetus for such a light side relapse absent the Galactic Emperor (not to mention that his status as the Chosen One is nullified by the destruction of the dark side's avatar).

Darth Vader is prepared to kill literally anyone if he feels it necessary. He ordered the destruction of an entire city to prevent the spread of a biological agent (Shadows of the Empire), and had an entire religious order wiped from the face of a planet for having had the misfortune of seeing him fight Boba Fett (Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire). It should not be forgotten that this is the same man who cut off his son's hand out of impatience and nearly strangled his beloved wife to death in a fit of rage -- the same man that did not so much as hesitate to murder preadolescent children. He is a cold-blooded sociopath who even fantasizes about killing his own (perversely Oedipal) father-figure even as he reveres him. One should not underestimate his ruthlessness.

Posted: **2007-07-31 03:18pm**

I think that if Anakin had managed to defeat Obi Wan and then subsequently Take down Palpatine not long afterwards, he wouldn't have had as much trouble as he would have post RoTS in the black armor. Anakin Skywalker, in the absense of Palpatine, I think could have found the backing of the military. If he killed Palpatine without anyone else knowing he could have blamed the entire fiasco on the Jedi, declared himself the Supreme Commander of Republican/Imperial military forces in the absense of the Jedi and the Supreme Chancellor. I think at that point Anakin only has to deal with Padme and the Senate, which it is uncertain if he could manipulate the Senate through her, or if he has any way of assuming the loyalty from those who owed their positions to Palpatine.

Posted: **2007-07-31 03:52pm**

In Fanboy's scenario is it at all plausable that Padme (If she doesn't die) would go along with Anakin and act as a balance to his anger, and to that point, what exactly would he have to be angry about? He killed the Jedi, Sith and is in a position to do exactly what he wanted, keep Padme safe and possibly learn Plageus's secrets to keeping her alive.

Posted: **2007-07-31 03:54pm**

Would the Stormtroopers turn on their commanders just as the Massassi turned on the Sith Commanders prior to the Great Hyperspace war? Vader always commanded great loyalty from the stormtrooper ranks.

Posted: **2007-07-31 03:56pm**

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Would the Stormtroopers turn on their commanders just as the Massassi turned on the Sith Commanders prior to the Great Hyperspace war? Vader always commanded great loyalty from the stormtrooper ranks.

Well they turned on the Jedi and they commanded great loyalty from them.
Stormtroopers serve the Emporer. I'm not sure if it matters who that is.

Posted: **2007-07-31 04:13pm**

havokeff wrote:
Well they turned on the Jedi and they commanded great loyalty from them.
Stormtroopers serve the Emporer. I'm not sure if it matters who that is.

Yes, but if the Emperor dies, the next closest thing is Vader.

Posted: **2007-07-31 04:49pm**

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Well they turned on the Jedi and they commanded great loyalty from them.
Stormtroopers serve the Emporer. I'm not sure if it matters who that is.
Yes, but if the Emperor dies, the next closest thing is Vader.

Well that's the real trick isn't it. Who has the authority to deem Vader Emperor? No one really, and like Publius said, there could very well be a power struggle for the position. I think a lot of it depends on WHEN vader were to kill Palpatine and attempt to take his place, and that timing would determine if the CT/ST Corps follows him.

Posted: **2007-07-31 05:16pm**

A couple of questions and a theory for Publius to kick around;
to what extent did Palpatine institutionalise the Sith order? Or, for that matter, deliberately avoid doing so?

What causes me to bring this up is that Vader does not seem to be Palpatine's natural successor in anything but the Sith and their(?) leadership of the Dark Side.
While properly speaking there only seem to be two of them, there are a great many acolytes, apprentices and followers- in relative terms. Some of which, such as the Privy Council, are fairly highly embedded in the structure of the Empire- albeit by Palpatine's will.

I feel as if there ought to be a natural fault line between the dark side theocracy and the imperial bureaucracy, between the extraordinary officers of the empire who derive their authority from the Emperor's household and the ordinary officers who form part of the structure descended from the republic.

Is the theocracy less prominent than I'm imagining it is? Considering how Vader was treated on board the first Death Star, with his ancient sorceror's ways, I may be overstating the case there.

So, is it- are they- purposely given only special and temporary roles, maintained in the shadows deliberately to prevent them gaining the civil authority that would give them- and specifically Vader- a chance to build a power base?

The dark side elements of the Empire do not seem to have anywhere near as large a public profile as the Jedi did under the Republic. Motti didn't seem able to tell the difference between the two. I submit that this is deliberate policy on Palpatine's part, to prevent any of those personally powerful enough to pose a threat to him also becoming politically powerful.

Ruinus, as suggested, I very much doubt that a man- more machine than man, now- who has as few friends as Vader seems to have can run the empire.
He may be politically adept on occasion, but there's nothing about his past- or his presence on screen- to suggest it comes anything like remotely naturally to him. It is not in what's left of his blood.
He may be able to reign over it, but I think at the very best he would be a Tiberius to Palpatine's Augustus, far more feared than loved, and eventually more hated than either. If not a mere Vitellius.

Posted: **2007-07-31 10:16pm**

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote: He may be able to reign over it, but I think at the very best he would be a Tiberius to Palpatine's Augustus, far more feared than loved, and eventually more hated than either. If not a mere Vitellius.

Mmmh, well, that is true, as you stated earlier I dont know of Vader having many friends.

But on his part, if he played it correctly, which he has shown to be able to do, he could make it seem as though the Rebellion had kill Palp, and he could say that he is taking up Palps "noble" cause of fighting the evildoers (who killed the beloved Emperor) thus making him seem like Palpatines good friend who took his place in the time of need.

BTW, if (lets assume he does this) Vader had killed Palp before the first DS is destroyed, and HE was in command, do you think he would have ordered Tarkin to launch all available TIEs? I mean, he did go outside, he probably had a good feeling that there was danger, something Tarkin couldnt see (See as in, see with the Force, from Tarkin's point of view, launching all TIE against a few X and Y wings is just stupid) would all the TIEs have succeeded in killing Luke?

Posted: **2007-08-01 12:25am**

havokeff wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Would the Stormtroopers turn on their commanders just as the Massassi turned on the Sith Commanders prior to the Great Hyperspace war? Vader always commanded great loyalty from the stormtrooper ranks.
Well they turned on the Jedi and they commanded great loyalty from them.
Stormtroopers serve the Emporer. I'm not sure if it matters who that is.

I'm not sure if one can really compare late-war clone troopers and the stormtroopers corps at the Empire's height. The intervening decades saw a vast diversification of their clone templates, production centers, and training facilities, and by the time of the OT, a substantial portion, if not the majority, of the corps wasn't clone at all. I would expect that stormtroopers would continue to serve their immediate superiors if Vader ascended to the throne; it would be the officer's decision that would matter (unless, of course, the soldiers resented their superior's command for whatever reason, and use the upheaval as an excuse to "reorder" their ranks). Whatever ended up occurring, I expect it would be considerably less homogenous and efficient than the execution of Order 66.

Posted: **2007-08-01 12:54am**

Noble Ire wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Would the Stormtroopers turn on their commanders just as the Massassi turned on the Sith Commanders prior to the Great Hyperspace war? Vader always commanded great loyalty from the stormtrooper ranks.
Well they turned on the Jedi and they commanded great loyalty from them.
Stormtroopers serve the Emporer. I'm not sure if it matters who that is.
I'm not sure if one can really compare late-war clone troopers and the stormtroopers corps at the Empire's height. The intervening decades saw a vast diversification of their clone templates, production centers, and training facilities, and by the time of the OT, a substantial portion, if not the majority, of the corps wasn't clone at all. I would expect that stormtroopers would continue to serve their immediate superiors if Vader ascended to the throne; it would be the officer's decision that would matter (unless, of course, the soldiers resented their superior's command for whatever reason, and use the upheaval as an excuse to "reorder" their ranks). Whatever ended up occurring, I expect it would be considerably less homogenous and efficient than the execution of Order 66.

Which is why I wrote this in my next post Noble...

havokeff wrote:Well that's the real trick isn't it. Who has the authority to deem Vader Emperor? No one really, and like Publius said, there could very well be a power struggle for the position. I think a lot of it depends on WHEN vader were to kill Palpatine and attempt to take his place, and that timing would determine if the CT/ST Corps follows him.

Bolded and such for emphasis.

And I didn't even fix my spelling.

Posted: **2007-08-01 01:03am**

Actually, wasn't Vader tremendously popular with the rank-and-file of the Imperial armed forces? I can't recall where I read it, but I seem to remember something to that effect.

Posted: **2007-08-01 02:47am**

I was inspired by this thread...

Emperor Vader. 'Nuff said.

Posted: **2007-08-01 07:26am**

ArcturusMengsk wrote:Actually, wasn't Vader tremendously popular with the rank-and-file of the Imperial armed forces? I can't recall where I read it, but I seem to remember something to that effect.

As long as you didn't screw up.

I mean, he executed people for the kind of incompetence that got people killed....

Posted: **2007-08-01 08:31am**

havokeff wrote:Bolded and such for emphasis. And I didn't even fix my spelling.

Well... that'll show me not to post when I'm about to go to sleep. Sorry about that.

And the Emperor Vader sketch is very nice. If I wasn't already buried in fanfics, I'd like to write something just for it.

Solauren wrote:As long as you didn't screw up.

I mean, he executed people for the kind of incompetence that got people killed....

Quite true. Vader was ruthless when it came to disciplining those under his command, but he evidently also had a fairly good reputation with the Imperial Army corps and the ranks of minor officers. Perhaps it was his almost mystic aura of power and fear that demanded respect, or his habit of placing himself in the thick of ground and space engagements alongside the common soldier.

Posted: **2007-08-01 10:50am**

ArcturusMengsk wrote:Actually, wasn't Vader tremendously popular with the rank-and-file of the Imperial armed forces? I can't recall where I read it, but I seem to remember something to that effect.

yes. Because he was willing to fight directly with his troops he had more popularity

Posted: **2007-08-01 11:18am**

havokeff wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Well they turned on the Jedi and they commanded great loyalty from them.
Stormtroopers serve the Emporer. I'm not sure if it matters who that is.
Yes, but if the Emperor dies, the next closest thing is Vader.
Well that's the real trick isn't it. Who has the authority to deem Vader Emperor? No one really, and like Publius said, there could very well be a power struggle for the position. I think a lot of it depends on WHEN vader were to kill Palpatine and attempt to take his place, and that timing would determine if the CT/ST Corps follows him.

I was under the impression that, post-Yavin, the Emperor increased Vader's standing among the Empire's elite. Compare his deference before Tarkin with the way he interacted with Xizor and the viziers.

Posted: **2007-08-01 02:36pm**

I guess it would depend on when Vader made the grab. Personally I've always loved the alt ending to the Ep 3 game where Anakin kills Sidious. But in the Vader suit he is too vunerable to sith Ligtning to activly go after Palpatine, IIRC he was actually counting on Luke to kill Sidious.

Posted: **2007-08-01 02:44pm**

havokeff wrote:I was inspired by this thread...

Emperor Vader. 'Nuff said.
<snip>

A good picture, but I think you left out Vader's cape, which should be visible between his legs when he's sitting.

Posted: **2007-08-01 03:03pm**

Sidewinder wrote:
havokeff wrote:I was inspired by this thread...

Emperor Vader. 'Nuff said.
<snip>
A good picture, but I think you left out Vader's cape, which should be visible between his legs when he's sitting.

Jeez you guys and his cape. Watch Empire and tell me if Vader is sitting down wearing his cape?

Posted: **2007-08-01 05:02pm**

havokeff wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:
havokeff wrote:I was inspired by this thread...

Emperor Vader. 'Nuff said.
<snip>

SHIT. (as in cool)

That alone makes me like the idea of Vader as Emperor.

He looks infinitly more badass than an old dude in a cloak.

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